The answer is quite simple. We expect ALOT more now. We expect open worlds, impact of choices, no classes, complete freedom, all sorts of nice sweet goodies, but it's just too much to ask a developer that has the know-how to be able to build that perfect game.
I know we had mmo's before EQ, but first it was EQ that went mainstream and got us all into "grinding", then WoW.... Now we're ALL hungering for a better experience it seems. So hopefully that company comes through soon. I have a few hopes being WoDOL and TOR that I've mentioned in other posts.
Because gamers and companies have different definitions.Failure for company is a game not didn't make back its budget and is not making a profit.Think about that long hard how many games fit both of those things.The truth is companies are adjust to make profit in current mmo market.
The best example of this STO i am sure this is many people example of as a game that is failing.As a gamer i some what agree but when i looked at from business side,STO is a thing of beauty.Cryptic is rolling in money from STO,Is it morally right? No.Truth is STO was never going to beat wow and pretty much was always going to be a game that appeal only to star trek nerds,They could have put out the best game ever and would pretty much still lose out to most games on the market because of it nature.So cryptic put out a game which had to be low cost for them and played the MMO industry game which is get as much money as you can at the front of the game.Companies now know that mmo are going to drop off i am sure Cryptic was prepare for STO to be 100k or less mmo,so every sucker that got to buy the box from the hype is gravy.
MMO are not failing they are adapting.Why are we seeing such bad games because mmo fans like to ride the hype wagon.I have done it myself,I have tried too many mmo which just feeds companies.Which is why i am supporter of free to play mmo you get a chance to fee out and play the product before deciding if it is good or bad game.For pay to play mmo you have payed 49.99/59.99 and probably 2 or 3 months of 14.99 before figure out game is bad and by then you have already support company enough.As long as gamers keep running to new mmo put them at 800k,700k and 2.3 million.You will keep seeing the medicore titles.
Let say it takes 30 million to make a mmo.You sell it at 59.99 to 600,000 people that is around 35,994,000 dollars plus those 600,000 also paid the 14.99 that is around 8,994,000 dollars.Most games start to slip after two or three months so you have couples months of making 8 to 6 million before the drop off.What happen if you where prepare from the start to run servers at around 100,000 people? And you have plan in place to merger servers and deal with drop off money?You just made a crap load of money and just made enough money to fund another project where you are going to repeat the process but this time it is going to be a little cheaper to make because you have the game engine and knowledge of what works and does not work. You make enough games eventually one of them make it big like NCsoft and Aion .
2 reasons: 1) Company lies about features in the past then releases fanbots to say "they only promised X" 2) Company has no clue what they are doing, same problems for months, such as bugs and lag
and if you think i am talking about Mortal Online, I am.
Mortal Online is not even released yet and still in Open Beta.Is being made by small indie company for niche market.Company so small that it was force to charge for beta access.Not the complete game "beta access".You only have yourself to blame to paying to play game incomplete form.
I was in block C of Mortal beta,So i know how bad the game is,Complaining does not even make sense
A.We knew the game is unfinished hence beta
B.You are playing the game for free right after your intial paying of money.Currently it has been 4 to 5 months i could play mortal for free.
I could understand complaining about War or Aion maybe even Aoc but Mortal come on now.Make no mistake it is not a good game and i would not recomend anybody thinking about play it and to those won't listen i would tell them wait at least 6 months after it release to consider playing it but complain about mortal is silly imo.
MO made one mistake setting unrealistic release date,which probably did because they are running out of money.
The best example of this STO i am sure this is many people example of as a game that is failing.As a gamer i some what agree but when i looked at from business side,STO is a thing of beauty.Cryptic is rolling in money from STO,Is it morally right? No.Truth is STO was never going to beat wow and pretty much was always going to be a game that appeal only to star trek nerds,They could have put out the best game ever and would pretty much still lose out to most games on the market because of it nature.So cryptic put out a game which had to be low cost for them and played the MMO industry game which is get as much money as you can at the front of the game.Companies now know that mmo are going to drop off i am sure Cryptic was prepare for STO to be 100k or less mmo,so every sucker that got to buy the box from the hype is gravy.
Why does a game have to beat WoW? That's a pretty high goal. Why don't we just set the bar at: it has to make a decent profit. A profit might happen at 150,000 subs.
STO had an open beta. Not even a beta really, more of a preview. This was open to all. Why would they do that if they didn't think they had a decent game on their hands?
Why does a game have to beat WoW? That's a pretty high goal. Why don't we just set the bar at: it has to make a decent profit. A profit might happen at 150,000 subs. STO had an open beta. Not even a beta really, more of a preview. This was open to all. Why would they do that if they didn't think they had a decent game on their hands?
That is part of this topic,People see game not approaching WoW numbers or starting to lose players,They call it a failure.WoW is freak nature which mess up the views people have for mmos.IMO the real numbers for a good mmo are about 300k to 500k.I don't disagree people don't get that alot of making profits and not operating at a loss.Even Aoc and War i think are pulling profit after they have restructure theirs servers and companies they may not make back their budget but they are making money rather losing it.
I would love to see a list what people call failures for me
War-failure 100 million(or some crazy number) budget
Vanguard-failure another huge budget
STO-soild game is making money,Probably didn't take a huge budget to make
Champions-life support, i have not read reports on it taking away large groups of player from CoX,Plus the Monster that is DC on line is coming out.
AoC-depends on much it cost to make but since it is single hand funded TSW- solid game
Darkfall-Solid game-which shot it self in the foot by the way it looks
Its more about the degree of success . Theres games that fail and games that achieve the kind of success which keeps them profitable but not on a par with Warcraft . A game does'nt need to have 12 million subs to be a success .
It's not the 12 million bar that hampers the success.
There is only one MMORPG that was designed as a ... videogame.
The other mmorpg's are designed on a franchize, or with fantastic potential ideas, or just 15 year old grinding techniques of letting the players ... pay for months to level.
But mmorpg's should be in the first place videogames and be fun.
Meaning unhampered, fast, tight, responsive controls of the little humanoids you play with. Add in too: reduction of downtime to obtain that fun.
You don't need to sit for 6 hours in front of your screen to search for "fun"; because fun ends rather quick that way.
What are you talking about. So the only mmo that's a "video game" is WoW?
Dude my brother has been running damn near 10 dungeons a day for a few months now and is still not happy with his gear.
Atleast when i finish grinding my XP in Ryzom I can just relax. the company doesnt constantly toss new carrots at me and make half of what i grinded worthless.
Not everyone gets to play 14 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. Yes i like progressing when i am doing other things as well. That's my opinion, you obviously differ.
The meaning of my whole post went flying over your head. Why play a game then that takes " 14 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year" then? Answer that question because you seem happy to continue to pay to "play" a game that you actually want the content to be skipped while you are offline. I will post the definition of a game and then you tell me why you are wanting to purchase a game knowing you don't have time to play it.
Main Entry: 1game
Pronunciation: ?g?m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gamen; akin to Old High German gaman amusement
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement
A game that levels while you are not actually playing it is just as much as a game as setting on the couch staring at the wall. Would you pay to watch a movie that is advertised to actually save you time you don't have to actually watch it .. doesn't make sense.
They keep launching half assed games and expect us to stick around until they happen to feel like fixing what should have worked in the first place. And pre-orders to get into betas?
The sad part of this is that us as the consumers are idiots to fall for it. (Looking at you STO as the most recent P2P example)
To all those who bought a half finished game (STO) and helped continue this trend... Go buy a Toyota (which we can say has "bugs". Brake system and gas pedals) and wait around until they patch it up for ya (Recall).
- Case: Thermaltake Kandalf Black Chassis - CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition 3.2GHz (OC'd 4.2GHz on Water Cooling) - Memory: Mushkin 8Gb (4x 2Gb) DDR3 1600Mhz - HDD: Dual Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 7200 RPM - GFX: (2) XFX Radeon HD 5870 in CrossFire - New upgrade!
"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
Movies -- it is faster, cheaper, and easier to create a flashy movie with lots of special effects, and no real acting content. Take a movie like To Kill A Mockingbird: it is all content, no flash. You have to have lots of good actors, lots of good scripts, and lots of time to make a movie like that. Now look at Transformers, not so much is required. Let the flash carry the movie, with a basic amount of acting and content.
Coffee -- people seem willing to settle for crap coffee, at least in America. I was in a laundromat in Germany, and decided to get a cup from the machine while my clothes were washing. That machine ground fresh beans and made a fresh cup of good coffee. Better than most restaurant coffee in America, except for "gourmet" coffee.
Why are people willing to accept second-rate products? Is it because that is all that is available? In the MMORPG genre, why would people be willing to accept a shallow game like STO?
It is all money: much cheaper to make crap coffee, crap movies, and crap games. Enough people will still buy it. So where is the incentive to create a quality product?
Furthermore....a game IS successful to ME if it succeeds in making me feel like my entertainment budget is being well spent.
That makes you personaly dis/liking the game only and has next to zero bearing on the game and it's state.
It won't make Usain Bolt less fastest 100m sprinter on the planet only because you think that he's not 'that fast'...
My comment, at least taken in the CONTEXT it was written....has more to do with this thread than the comment you just made about Usain Bolt, who has nothing to do with gaming or success of games AT ALL.
If you had read my whole comment, and yes....I know it was a LOT to read....you would have seen me make a similar analogy to the one you just made, but regarding restaurants. Just because Restaurant X (or Game Y) down the street is ROLLING in money....doesn't mean I'm going to want to play it. It also doesn't mean it's "the best." It means it's the most financially successful.
Jeebus Cripes, we've had this conversation a million fucking times on MMORPG.com, but I guess we need to have it again.
Brittney Spears....rich, "successful," etc. BEST vocalist in the music industry? OMG hell no. Possibly the most advertised, the best MARKETED, but the best vocalist? NO. But to some people....they think so. Even if you asked a professional vocal coach and they told you she uses AutoTune ALL the time and really can't sing worth a crap....if you LIKED her...you wouldn't care. Same goes for restaurants, games, and everything else we could name under the sun.
Blizzard-sized financial success means NOTHING to me as the player of a game. I only care that the company is "successful" enough to make their money back, keep the server(s) up, pay their bills, keep the game running well, and then maybe gets enough of a little profit on top of that to inspire them to keep going. Period.
As I said....
A game is a success TO ME (note the words "TO ME") if it succeeds in making me feel like my entertainment budget is well spent. In other words....if I'm enjoying it.....I don't CARE if it's Blizzard behind it, or Joe Schmoe Foozlecoffer from Delaware Avenue in Podunk, Arkansas running the show.
I think part of the problem, particularly with Americans, is that we DEFINE success in terms of financial gain ALONE. Which honestly....is complete and utter bullshit. How financially well off do you think Mother Theresa of Calcutta was? Do you think she was successful? Damn straight she was. She was hugely successful and it had nothing to DO with money. The United States has a very very WARPED mentality when it comes to measuring success. There is a lot more to success than a full pocketbook.
And with games....I can say the same thing. Blizzard's pockets are overflowing. Their game is financially "successful" in the market. But their game no longer has any SOUL. (Do I really need to SAY that is just my opinion, or do you actually understand that forums are made up OF opinions?) There's a little game called LinkRealms....independent developers that are NOT rolling in money....and their game has more SOUL than the 800 lb behemoth called WoW....by far. They have been successful in making a game that a lot of people are already enjoying, and perhaps....more will enjoy in the future. Are they TRYING to make "WoW"....hell no. They're just trying to succeed in their own little niche....the same as many other developers that do not measure success ONLY by the dollar bill.
Note: I used LinkRealms as an example of a game with "soul" because it's the polar OPPOSITE to WoW. I could have filled in that blank with a lot of other games too, some of them more financially "successful," but considered by some to be "failures" because they don't have 12 million subs. Pfffft.
Blizzard's pockets are overflowing. Their game is financially "successful" in the market. But their game no longer has any SOUL. (Do I really need to SAY that is just my opinion, or do you actually understand that forums are made up OF opinions?) There's a little game called LinkRealms....independent developers that are NOT rolling in money....and their game has more SOUL than the 800 lb behemoth called WoW
Yeah, and the french are the only ones who know Jerry Lewis is a genius.
It reminds me of the movies. And coffee. Movies -- it is faster, cheaper, and easier to create a flashy movie with lots of special effects, and no real acting content. Take a movie like To Kill A Mockingbird: it is all content, no flash. You have to have lots of good actors, lots of good scripts, and lots of time to make a movie like that. Now look at Transformers, not so much is required. Let the flash carry the movie, with a basic amount of acting and content. Coffee -- people seem willing to settle for crap coffee, at least in America. I was in a laundromat in Germany, and decided to get a cup from the machine while my clothes were washing. That machine ground fresh beans and made a fresh cup of good coffee. Better than most restaurant coffee in America, except for "gourmet" coffee. Why are people willing to accept second-rate products? Is it because that is all that is available? In the MMORPG genre, why would people be willing to accept a shallow game like STO? It is all money: much cheaper to make crap coffee, crap movies, and crap games. Enough people will still buy it. So where is the incentive to create a quality product?
The United States....has ISSUES. Here, it's all about the Almighty Dollar and....AND....being "popular," and "cool." Marketing is KING here. If you have the money to market, like for instance....Folger's Coffee....people will BUY it. Companies sell the "cool factor" the popularity factor, and quality...REAL quality...is not as important to most people as having the coolest, latest, most advertised "thing." People want the "thing" that their neighbors have seen advertised and thought "Ooo...I'd like to have that." "OMG...look honey, the Joneses bought that car we saw advertised on television!" (Or they play that COOL game, World of Warcraft, you know...the one Mr. T plays!)
GAG CHOKE PUKE.
For instance....Starbucks. FFS they are PROUD of their product, aren't they? But I used to work in a coffeehouse in Overland Park (upper class area of Kansas City on the Kansas side) that had the absolute best espresso you have ever tasted other than maybe Illy from Italy, but Illy is 40 bucks a pound, so..... Anyway, it wasn't bitter like Starbucks, it was sweet, and smooth, and clean tasting and nutty and smelled like HEAVEN. It had a crema that was like satin. It was a blend made by the owners of La Dolce Vita. They traveled all over the world to get the best blend of coffee beans for their espresso blend, and boy....the difference in taste was astounding. BUT....they are a middle aged couple, wealthy, yes....but do they have the finances to compete with STARBUCKS in marketing??? No way in hell.
I tell you what though....that was one BUSY coffeehouse. And Pat and Leslie made a fortune within a few years. And there was a Starbucks right across the street that ended up closing DOWN because of La Dolce Vita. The coffee was THAT good. But you know what....none of you people had EVER heard of them. And I bet EVERYONE here has heard of Starbucks.
Do I need to explain the point of that story? I think most people will get it. Fame and riches do not EQUAL highest quality. Fame and riches do, however, often equal the best marketing for the buck. And so much is subjective anyway. So we measure success by money, because it's something that can BE measured, and then we ASSUME that whoever has the most moolah MUST be "the best." And very often....that is inaccurate. But....c'est la vie, I suppose.
Good example girlgeek except it can also be used to show why WoW is still on top.
In your example the superior product ended up getting all the customers in the area and the company providing the sub par product had to close down. So the superior product got all the fame and riches and noteriety in that town. In time should that couple choose to pursue it they can slowly market it, and eventually either shut down starbucks or force starbucks to change (remember starbucks did not start off as a mega behemoth). So the superior product won in that town, providing a template of how it could win overall.
Currently wow has the most subs, has the most riches. To many people it is the superior product. If another product comes along that is actually superior than just like the coffee example the people will go to that product and wow will be whittled down - just like your coffee example.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Good example girlgeek except it can also be used to show why WoW is still on top.
That was my point. I was trying to make it without pointing that out specifically. lol
In your example the superior product ended up getting all the customers in the area and the company providing the sub par product had to close down. So the superior product got all the fame and riches and noteriety in that town. In time should that couple choose to pursue it they can slowly market it, and eventually either shut down starbucks or force starbucks to change (remember starbucks did not start off as a mega behemoth). So the superior product won in that town, providing a template of how it could win overall.
True enough. And this also gives me HOPE for new games....which was also sort of my point. I guess I'm a bit cryptic in my writing style, huh?
Currently wow has the most subs, has the most riches. To many people it is the superior product. If another product comes along that is actually superior than just like the coffee example the people will go to that product and wow will be whittled down - just like your coffee example. Venge Sunsoar
I love that I can always count on you to understand what I'm saying. Thank you for that.
They're trying to be too much like WoW, thinking they can take a bite out of that enormous pie.
Currently, most managers think they can get away with releasing a mediocre wow clone to try and get those same 10 million subscribers. None of them stops to think where they would actually come from, and no one realizes that it's ridiculously stupid to try to compete with a game that has been growing exponentially for over 5 years. They think that WoW is how MMO's are supposed to be made, and thus, don't bother looking for alternative designs for a subscription based game.
This is the trap Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Age of Conan and so many other games fell into. Huge production costs but no subscribers to back them up - Because why would they leave WoW for a game that plays almost exactly the same, has less content and more bugs?
Untill both developers and managers get it into their thick heads that they cannot compete with WoW by making the exact same game, i'm afraid that more new MMO's will fail.
To clarifiy: Warhammer was a failure because it failed to live up to the hype and now has to pay the price for it. It may still have ~150k subscribers, but given the day 1 sales of 1 million+ this can be called "unsuccesful". STO will fail in the near future and drop to around the same amount of (true) subscribers as CO, if not less. The game tried to force the wrong IP into the wow-clone mold and will pay for it dearly, though Cryptic could care less since they intentionally went for day 1 sales and nothing more. They will keep the game running as long as it provides them with $1 profit or more - Mark my words, if they start making a loss on the game they will announce it's cancellation within the month. AoC is getting better, but is getting by by it's graphics mostly. Unlike STO, the Conan IP did fit (sort of) in that style of gameplay, but the game has been paying for a lack of focus and content for a long time. Given it's original ambitions it failed to deliver spectacularly.
Originally posted by girlgeek My comment, at least taken in the CONTEXT it was written....has more to do with this thread than the comment you just made about Usain Bolt, who has nothing to do with gaming or success of games AT ALL.
I take it as you don't understand the point I made.
Take the example you provided with Britney Spears. She is undoubtfuly successfull since there are millions of people buying her CDs and liking her music. Is she 'best' singer? 'Best' has no or very troublesome objective measurement. It is up to your liking to decide wheter you consider her as 'good' singer and that is why awards/evaluation consist of votes - more people liking something presents commonly recognized value.
In other words: Your personal affiliation is one thing, and that is purely subjective. 'Success' on the other hand can have subjective measures - like number of subscribers or financial statement.
Originally posted by ChromeBallz To clarifiy: Warhammer was a failure because it failed to live up to the hype
That is what hype is, unreasonably boosted expectations.
The thing is, MMO market changed a lot since UO or WoW was released. Most of the games had same spike of sales after the launch and faded shortly. Now, take into account that the market grew 10 times in strength from what it used to be. Is it still that suprising that the spikes went 10 times stronger too?
For instance....Starbucks. FFS they are PROUD of their product, aren't they? But I used to work in a coffeehouse in Overland Park (upper class area of Kansas City on the Kansas side) that had the absolute best espresso you have ever tasted other than maybe Illy from Italy, but Illy is 40 bucks a pound, so..... Anyway, it wasn't bitter like Starbucks, it was sweet, and smooth, and clean tasting and nutty and smelled like HEAVEN. It had a crema that was like satin. It was a blend made by the owners of La Dolce Vita. They traveled all over the world to get the best blend of coffee beans for their espresso blend, and boy....the difference in taste was astounding. BUT....they are a middle aged couple, wealthy, yes....but do they have the finances to compete with STARBUCKS in marketing??? No way in hell.
I tell you what though....that was one BUSY coffeehouse. And Pat and Leslie made a fortune within a few years. And there was a Starbucks right across the street that ended up closing DOWN because of La Dolce Vita. The coffee was THAT good. But you know what....none of you people had EVER heard of them. And I bet EVERYONE here has heard of Starbucks.
This is why I dislike analogies, because they introduce or ignore factors and just do not represent the topic well.
Of course no one has heard of this little sole-proprietor coffee shop near you any more than they you have heard of the local coffee shop near my home that I think is fabulous. Yet I don't think that entitles me to talk down to you and everyone here as if they are somehow uninformed about the entire market and translate that into ignorance of mmos.
I'm sure starbucks started out just like your little coffee shop did and built into the empire it is today without some massive advertising budget to draw on. Starbucks offered a better product for its time and grew like crazy, just like it can happen with the local little coffee shops of the world.
If there is some little mmo that offers far superior gameplay and quality than what the big names offer, then word of mouth will spread and the game should do well. However I just don't think the mmo market is filled with examples that mimic your little coffee shop which is where the analogy continues to break down.
Most of them are build like single player game, the online part is just an excuse to make you pay to play. Just look at STO for example, some peoples get to max level within the first month and are left with nothing to do end game. It's the same thing with Fallen Earth, the game is great, you can get to top level relatively fast (not as fast as STO tho) in a matter of 2 months then again, nothing to do at max level.
Because of Publishers forcing MMO's to be released when really they need another 6 - 12 months testing and dev. But wont ever change because consumers will still buy a new MMO on release despite bad reviews, warnings and despite the fact that no MMO has worked on release in the past 4 years
Cause they aren't good and aren't worth $15 a month., especially seeing as they try to copy WoW and just come off as poor clones.
Quoted for absolute TRUITH. This guy, seriously needs a nobel peace prize. Obvious solution is obvious? Apparently not, because the MMO industry CONTINUES to crank out wow clone after wow clone, everyone wants to be the next WOW, but they fail.
What the industry needs, is INNOVATION. How many more failed mmorpgs does it take until devs go "Guys, we need a new plan, this has already been done hundred times before."
I hear the term clone and wow clone tossed around alot. What exactly is a clone?
clone definition
From yourdictionary.com
noun
1. Biol. all the descendants derived asexually from a single individual, as by cuttings, bulbs, etc. or by fission, parthenogenesis, etc.
2. an individual produced by cloning
3. Informal a person or thing very much like another
4. Comput. a hardware or software product, esp. a personal computer, designed to function like an original, typically higher-priced, product from another manufacturer
Etymology: < Gr kl?n, a twig < klan, to break: see clastic
transitive verb cloned, cloning clon′·ing
When we see and read about clones in books, movies, games, ANYWHERE In popular fiction, what is the one thing in common with clones? Subhuman, cheap... expendable.... slaves..... list goes on. It all boils down to them being pretty much a knock off of the real thing, CLONES ARE BY NATURE, INFERIOR PRODUCTS, that immitate the real thing. Whether its a person, a sheep, or a MMORPG.... a clone is still a clone... So the better question is , if you clone something , why are you trying to sell said clone at same price of the original?
If you have a subpar product/game it merits subpar pricing structure. Nobodys gonna pay 15$ a / mo for a cheap buggy wow immitation, when they can just go play wow, for 15 dollars a month... simple logic really.
Cause they aren't good and aren't worth $15 a month., especially seeing as they try to copy WoW and just come off as poor clones
Quoted for absolute TRUITH. This guy, seriously needs a nobel peace prize. Obvious solution is obvious? Apparently not, because the MMO industry CONTINUES to crank out wow clone after wow clone, everyone wants to be the next WOW, but they fail.
What the industry needs, is INNOVATION. How many more failed mmorpgs does it take until devs go "Guys, we need a new plan, this has already been done hundred times before."
I hear the term clone and wow clone tossed around alot. What exactly is a clone?
clone definition
From yourdictionary.com
noun
1. Biol. all the descendants derived asexually from a single individual, as by cuttings, bulbs, etc. or by fission, parthenogenesis, etc.
2. an individual produced by cloning
3. Informal a person or thing very much like another
4. Comput. a hardware or software product, esp. a personal computer, designed to function like an original, typically higher-priced, product from another manufacturer
Etymology: < Gr kl?n, a twig < klan, to break: see clastic
transitive verb cloned, cloning clon′·ing
When we see and read about clones in books, movies, games, ANYWHERE In popular fiction, what is the one thing in common with clones? Subhuman, cheap... expendable.... slaves..... list goes on. It all boils down to them being pretty much a knock off of the real thing, CLONES ARE BY NATURE, INFERIOR PRODUCTS, that immitate the real thing. Whether its a person, a sheep, or a MMORPG.... a clone is still a clone... So the better question is , if you clone something , why are you trying to sell said clone at same price of the original? The term for selling something fake as the real thing, my friends, is called counterfeiting.
If you have a subpar product/game it merits subpar pricing structure. Nobodys gonna pay 15$ a / mo for a cheap buggy wow immitation, when they can just go play wow, for 15 dollars a month... simple logic really.
Comments
The answer is quite simple. We expect ALOT more now. We expect open worlds, impact of choices, no classes, complete freedom, all sorts of nice sweet goodies, but it's just too much to ask a developer that has the know-how to be able to build that perfect game.
I know we had mmo's before EQ, but first it was EQ that went mainstream and got us all into "grinding", then WoW.... Now we're ALL hungering for a better experience it seems. So hopefully that company comes through soon. I have a few hopes being WoDOL and TOR that I've mentioned in other posts.
What do you call a failure or failing?
Because gamers and companies have different definitions.Failure for company is a game not didn't make back its budget and is not making a profit.Think about that long hard how many games fit both of those things.The truth is companies are adjust to make profit in current mmo market.
The best example of this STO i am sure this is many people example of as a game that is failing.As a gamer i some what agree but when i looked at from business side,STO is a thing of beauty.Cryptic is rolling in money from STO,Is it morally right? No.Truth is STO was never going to beat wow and pretty much was always going to be a game that appeal only to star trek nerds,They could have put out the best game ever and would pretty much still lose out to most games on the market because of it nature.So cryptic put out a game which had to be low cost for them and played the MMO industry game which is get as much money as you can at the front of the game.Companies now know that mmo are going to drop off i am sure Cryptic was prepare for STO to be 100k or less mmo,so every sucker that got to buy the box from the hype is gravy.
MMO are not failing they are adapting.Why are we seeing such bad games because mmo fans like to ride the hype wagon.I have done it myself,I have tried too many mmo which just feeds companies.Which is why i am supporter of free to play mmo you get a chance to fee out and play the product before deciding if it is good or bad game.For pay to play mmo you have payed 49.99/59.99 and probably 2 or 3 months of 14.99 before figure out game is bad and by then you have already support company enough.As long as gamers keep running to new mmo put them at 800k,700k and 2.3 million.You will keep seeing the medicore titles.
Let say it takes 30 million to make a mmo.You sell it at 59.99 to 600,000 people that is around 35,994,000 dollars plus those 600,000 also paid the 14.99 that is around 8,994,000 dollars.Most games start to slip after two or three months so you have couples months of making 8 to 6 million before the drop off.What happen if you where prepare from the start to run servers at around 100,000 people? And you have plan in place to merger servers and deal with drop off money?You just made a crap load of money and just made enough money to fund another project where you are going to repeat the process but this time it is going to be a little cheaper to make because you have the game engine and knowledge of what works and does not work. You make enough games eventually one of them make it big like NCsoft and Aion .
Mortal Online is not even released yet and still in Open Beta.Is being made by small indie company for niche market.Company so small that it was force to charge for beta access.Not the complete game "beta access".You only have yourself to blame to paying to play game incomplete form.
I was in block C of Mortal beta,So i know how bad the game is,Complaining does not even make sense
A.We knew the game is unfinished hence beta
B.You are playing the game for free right after your intial paying of money.Currently it has been 4 to 5 months i could play mortal for free.
I could understand complaining about War or Aion maybe even Aoc but Mortal come on now.Make no mistake it is not a good game and i would not recomend anybody thinking about play it and to those won't listen i would tell them wait at least 6 months after it release to consider playing it but complain about mortal is silly imo.
MO made one mistake setting unrealistic release date,which probably did because they are running out of money.
Why does a game have to beat WoW? That's a pretty high goal. Why don't we just set the bar at: it has to make a decent profit. A profit might happen at 150,000 subs.
STO had an open beta. Not even a beta really, more of a preview. This was open to all. Why would they do that if they didn't think they had a decent game on their hands?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
That is part of this topic,People see game not approaching WoW numbers or starting to lose players,They call it a failure.WoW is freak nature which mess up the views people have for mmos.IMO the real numbers for a good mmo are about 300k to 500k.I don't disagree people don't get that alot of making profits and not operating at a loss.Even Aoc and War i think are pulling profit after they have restructure theirs servers and companies they may not make back their budget but they are making money rather losing it.
I would love to see a list what people call failures for me
War-failure 100 million(or some crazy number) budget
Vanguard-failure another huge budget
STO-soild game is making money,Probably didn't take a huge budget to make
Champions-life support, i have not read reports on it taking away large groups of player from CoX,Plus the Monster that is DC on line is coming out.
AoC-depends on much it cost to make but since it is single hand funded TSW- solid game
Darkfall-Solid game-which shot it self in the foot by the way it looks
EvE-Success
Lotor-Success- but topic for another day
Aion- Huge success
Tabla rasa-the biggest failure
WoW-The biggest succes
just a small sampling of current games
It's not the 12 million bar that hampers the success.
There is only one MMORPG that was designed as a ... videogame.
The other mmorpg's are designed on a franchize, or with fantastic potential ideas, or just 15 year old grinding techniques of letting the players ... pay for months to level.
But mmorpg's should be in the first place videogames and be fun.
Meaning unhampered, fast, tight, responsive controls of the little humanoids you play with. Add in too: reduction of downtime to obtain that fun.
You don't need to sit for 6 hours in front of your screen to search for "fun"; because fun ends rather quick that way.
What are you talking about. So the only mmo that's a "video game" is WoW?
Dude my brother has been running damn near 10 dungeons a day for a few months now and is still not happy with his gear.
Atleast when i finish grinding my XP in Ryzom I can just relax. the company doesnt constantly toss new carrots at me and make half of what i grinded worthless.
Keep telling me WoW has no grind lol
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
The meaning of my whole post went flying over your head. Why play a game then that takes " 14 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year" then? Answer that question because you seem happy to continue to pay to "play" a game that you actually want the content to be skipped while you are offline. I will post the definition of a game and then you tell me why you are wanting to purchase a game knowing you don't have time to play it.
Main Entry: 1game
Pronunciation: ?g?m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gamen; akin to Old High German gaman amusement
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement
A game that levels while you are not actually playing it is just as much as a game as setting on the couch staring at the wall. Would you pay to watch a movie that is advertised to actually save you time you don't have to actually watch it .. doesn't make sense.
They keep launching half assed games and expect us to stick around until they happen to feel like fixing what should have worked in the first place. And pre-orders to get into betas?
The sad part of this is that us as the consumers are idiots to fall for it. (Looking at you STO as the most recent P2P example)
To all those who bought a half finished game (STO) and helped continue this trend... Go buy a Toyota (which we can say has "bugs". Brake system and gas pedals) and wait around until they patch it up for ya (Recall).
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"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
It reminds me of the movies. And coffee.
Movies -- it is faster, cheaper, and easier to create a flashy movie with lots of special effects, and no real acting content. Take a movie like To Kill A Mockingbird: it is all content, no flash. You have to have lots of good actors, lots of good scripts, and lots of time to make a movie like that. Now look at Transformers, not so much is required. Let the flash carry the movie, with a basic amount of acting and content.
Coffee -- people seem willing to settle for crap coffee, at least in America. I was in a laundromat in Germany, and decided to get a cup from the machine while my clothes were washing. That machine ground fresh beans and made a fresh cup of good coffee. Better than most restaurant coffee in America, except for "gourmet" coffee.
Why are people willing to accept second-rate products? Is it because that is all that is available? In the MMORPG genre, why would people be willing to accept a shallow game like STO?
It is all money: much cheaper to make crap coffee, crap movies, and crap games. Enough people will still buy it. So where is the incentive to create a quality product?
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That makes you personaly dis/liking the game only and has next to zero bearing on the game and it's state.
It won't make Usain Bolt less fastest 100m sprinter on the planet only because you think that he's not 'that fast'...
My comment, at least taken in the CONTEXT it was written....has more to do with this thread than the comment you just made about Usain Bolt, who has nothing to do with gaming or success of games AT ALL.
If you had read my whole comment, and yes....I know it was a LOT to read....you would have seen me make a similar analogy to the one you just made, but regarding restaurants. Just because Restaurant X (or Game Y) down the street is ROLLING in money....doesn't mean I'm going to want to play it. It also doesn't mean it's "the best." It means it's the most financially successful.
Jeebus Cripes, we've had this conversation a million fucking times on MMORPG.com, but I guess we need to have it again.
Brittney Spears....rich, "successful," etc. BEST vocalist in the music industry? OMG hell no. Possibly the most advertised, the best MARKETED, but the best vocalist? NO. But to some people....they think so. Even if you asked a professional vocal coach and they told you she uses AutoTune ALL the time and really can't sing worth a crap....if you LIKED her...you wouldn't care. Same goes for restaurants, games, and everything else we could name under the sun.
Blizzard-sized financial success means NOTHING to me as the player of a game. I only care that the company is "successful" enough to make their money back, keep the server(s) up, pay their bills, keep the game running well, and then maybe gets enough of a little profit on top of that to inspire them to keep going. Period.
As I said....
A game is a success TO ME (note the words "TO ME") if it succeeds in making me feel like my entertainment budget is well spent. In other words....if I'm enjoying it.....I don't CARE if it's Blizzard behind it, or Joe Schmoe Foozlecoffer from Delaware Avenue in Podunk, Arkansas running the show.
I think part of the problem, particularly with Americans, is that we DEFINE success in terms of financial gain ALONE. Which honestly....is complete and utter bullshit. How financially well off do you think Mother Theresa of Calcutta was? Do you think she was successful? Damn straight she was. She was hugely successful and it had nothing to DO with money. The United States has a very very WARPED mentality when it comes to measuring success. There is a lot more to success than a full pocketbook.
And with games....I can say the same thing. Blizzard's pockets are overflowing. Their game is financially "successful" in the market. But their game no longer has any SOUL. (Do I really need to SAY that is just my opinion, or do you actually understand that forums are made up OF opinions?) There's a little game called LinkRealms....independent developers that are NOT rolling in money....and their game has more SOUL than the 800 lb behemoth called WoW....by far. They have been successful in making a game that a lot of people are already enjoying, and perhaps....more will enjoy in the future. Are they TRYING to make "WoW"....hell no. They're just trying to succeed in their own little niche....the same as many other developers that do not measure success ONLY by the dollar bill.
Note: I used LinkRealms as an example of a game with "soul" because it's the polar OPPOSITE to WoW. I could have filled in that blank with a lot of other games too, some of them more financially "successful," but considered by some to be "failures" because they don't have 12 million subs. Pfffft.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yeah, and the french are the only ones who know Jerry Lewis is a genius.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
The United States....has ISSUES. Here, it's all about the Almighty Dollar and....AND....being "popular," and "cool." Marketing is KING here. If you have the money to market, like for instance....Folger's Coffee....people will BUY it. Companies sell the "cool factor" the popularity factor, and quality...REAL quality...is not as important to most people as having the coolest, latest, most advertised "thing." People want the "thing" that their neighbors have seen advertised and thought "Ooo...I'd like to have that." "OMG...look honey, the Joneses bought that car we saw advertised on television!" (Or they play that COOL game, World of Warcraft, you know...the one Mr. T plays!)
GAG CHOKE PUKE.
For instance....Starbucks. FFS they are PROUD of their product, aren't they? But I used to work in a coffeehouse in Overland Park (upper class area of Kansas City on the Kansas side) that had the absolute best espresso you have ever tasted other than maybe Illy from Italy, but Illy is 40 bucks a pound, so..... Anyway, it wasn't bitter like Starbucks, it was sweet, and smooth, and clean tasting and nutty and smelled like HEAVEN. It had a crema that was like satin. It was a blend made by the owners of La Dolce Vita. They traveled all over the world to get the best blend of coffee beans for their espresso blend, and boy....the difference in taste was astounding. BUT....they are a middle aged couple, wealthy, yes....but do they have the finances to compete with STARBUCKS in marketing??? No way in hell.
I tell you what though....that was one BUSY coffeehouse. And Pat and Leslie made a fortune within a few years. And there was a Starbucks right across the street that ended up closing DOWN because of La Dolce Vita. The coffee was THAT good. But you know what....none of you people had EVER heard of them. And I bet EVERYONE here has heard of Starbucks.
Do I need to explain the point of that story? I think most people will get it. Fame and riches do not EQUAL highest quality. Fame and riches do, however, often equal the best marketing for the buck. And so much is subjective anyway. So we measure success by money, because it's something that can BE measured, and then we ASSUME that whoever has the most moolah MUST be "the best." And very often....that is inaccurate. But....c'est la vie, I suppose.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Good example girlgeek except it can also be used to show why WoW is still on top.
In your example the superior product ended up getting all the customers in the area and the company providing the sub par product had to close down. So the superior product got all the fame and riches and noteriety in that town. In time should that couple choose to pursue it they can slowly market it, and eventually either shut down starbucks or force starbucks to change (remember starbucks did not start off as a mega behemoth). So the superior product won in that town, providing a template of how it could win overall.
Currently wow has the most subs, has the most riches. To many people it is the superior product. If another product comes along that is actually superior than just like the coffee example the people will go to that product and wow will be whittled down - just like your coffee example.
Venge Sunsoar
I love that I can always count on you to understand what I'm saying. Thank you for that.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
totally agree with the above poster
Reason is simple.
They're trying to be too much like WoW, thinking they can take a bite out of that enormous pie.
Currently, most managers think they can get away with releasing a mediocre wow clone to try and get those same 10 million subscribers. None of them stops to think where they would actually come from, and no one realizes that it's ridiculously stupid to try to compete with a game that has been growing exponentially for over 5 years. They think that WoW is how MMO's are supposed to be made, and thus, don't bother looking for alternative designs for a subscription based game.
This is the trap Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Age of Conan and so many other games fell into. Huge production costs but no subscribers to back them up - Because why would they leave WoW for a game that plays almost exactly the same, has less content and more bugs?
Untill both developers and managers get it into their thick heads that they cannot compete with WoW by making the exact same game, i'm afraid that more new MMO's will fail.
To clarifiy: Warhammer was a failure because it failed to live up to the hype and now has to pay the price for it. It may still have ~150k subscribers, but given the day 1 sales of 1 million+ this can be called "unsuccesful".
STO will fail in the near future and drop to around the same amount of (true) subscribers as CO, if not less. The game tried to force the wrong IP into the wow-clone mold and will pay for it dearly, though Cryptic could care less since they intentionally went for day 1 sales and nothing more. They will keep the game running as long as it provides them with $1 profit or more - Mark my words, if they start making a loss on the game they will announce it's cancellation within the month.
AoC is getting better, but is getting by by it's graphics mostly. Unlike STO, the Conan IP did fit (sort of) in that style of gameplay, but the game has been paying for a lack of focus and content for a long time. Given it's original ambitions it failed to deliver spectacularly.
Playing: WF
Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA
I take it as you don't understand the point I made.
Take the example you provided with Britney Spears.
She is undoubtfuly successfull since there are millions of people buying her CDs and liking her music.
Is she 'best' singer? 'Best' has no or very troublesome objective measurement. It is up to your liking to decide wheter you consider her as 'good' singer and that is why awards/evaluation consist of votes - more people liking something presents commonly recognized value.
In other words:
Your personal affiliation is one thing, and that is purely subjective. 'Success' on the other hand can have subjective measures - like number of subscribers or financial statement.
The world is not made by 'to me' things...
That is what hype is, unreasonably boosted expectations.
The thing is, MMO market changed a lot since UO or WoW was released. Most of the games had same spike of sales after the launch and faded shortly.
Now, take into account that the market grew 10 times in strength from what it used to be.
Is it still that suprising that the spikes went 10 times stronger too?
Just my 0.2 ISK...
they're failing because they're not Mass Effect 2...
This is why I dislike analogies, because they introduce or ignore factors and just do not represent the topic well.
Of course no one has heard of this little sole-proprietor coffee shop near you any more than they you have heard of the local coffee shop near my home that I think is fabulous. Yet I don't think that entitles me to talk down to you and everyone here as if they are somehow uninformed about the entire market and translate that into ignorance of mmos.
I'm sure starbucks started out just like your little coffee shop did and built into the empire it is today without some massive advertising budget to draw on. Starbucks offered a better product for its time and grew like crazy, just like it can happen with the local little coffee shops of the world.
If there is some little mmo that offers far superior gameplay and quality than what the big names offer, then word of mouth will spread and the game should do well. However I just don't think the mmo market is filled with examples that mimic your little coffee shop which is where the analogy continues to break down.
Cause they aren't good and aren't worth $15 a month., especially seeing as they try to copy WoW and just come off as poor clones.
Most of them are build like single player game, the online part is just an excuse to make you pay to play. Just look at STO for example, some peoples get to max level within the first month and are left with nothing to do end game. It's the same thing with Fallen Earth, the game is great, you can get to top level relatively fast (not as fast as STO tho) in a matter of 2 months then again, nothing to do at max level.
Because of Publishers forcing MMO's to be released when really they need another 6 - 12 months testing and dev. But wont ever change because consumers will still buy a new MMO on release despite bad reviews, warnings and despite the fact that no MMO has worked on release in the past 4 years
Quoted for absolute TRUITH. This guy, seriously needs a nobel peace prize. Obvious solution is obvious? Apparently not, because the MMO industry CONTINUES to crank out wow clone after wow clone, everyone wants to be the next WOW, but they fail.
What the industry needs, is INNOVATION. How many more failed mmorpgs does it take until devs go "Guys, we need a new plan, this has already been done hundred times before."
I hear the term clone and wow clone tossed around alot. What exactly is a clone?
clone definition
From yourdictionary.com
noun
1. Biol. all the descendants derived asexually from a single individual, as by cuttings, bulbs, etc. or by fission, parthenogenesis, etc.
2. an individual produced by cloning
3. Informal a person or thing very much like another
4. Comput. a hardware or software product, esp. a personal computer, designed to function like an original, typically higher-priced, product from another manufacturer
Etymology: < Gr kl?n, a twig < klan, to break: see clastic
transitive verb cloned, cloning clon′·ing
When we see and read about clones in books, movies, games, ANYWHERE In popular fiction, what is the one thing in common with clones? Subhuman, cheap... expendable.... slaves..... list goes on. It all boils down to them being pretty much a knock off of the real thing, CLONES ARE BY NATURE, INFERIOR PRODUCTS, that immitate the real thing. Whether its a person, a sheep, or a MMORPG.... a clone is still a clone... So the better question is , if you clone something , why are you trying to sell said clone at same price of the original?
If you have a subpar product/game it merits subpar pricing structure. Nobodys gonna pay 15$ a / mo for a cheap buggy wow immitation, when they can just go play wow, for 15 dollars a month... simple logic really.
Quoted for absolute TRUITH. This guy, seriously needs a nobel peace prize. Obvious solution is obvious? Apparently not, because the MMO industry CONTINUES to crank out wow clone after wow clone, everyone wants to be the next WOW, but they fail.
What the industry needs, is INNOVATION. How many more failed mmorpgs does it take until devs go "Guys, we need a new plan, this has already been done hundred times before."
I hear the term clone and wow clone tossed around alot. What exactly is a clone?
clone definition
From yourdictionary.com
noun
1. Biol. all the descendants derived asexually from a single individual, as by cuttings, bulbs, etc. or by fission, parthenogenesis, etc.
2. an individual produced by cloning
3. Informal a person or thing very much like another
4. Comput. a hardware or software product, esp. a personal computer, designed to function like an original, typically higher-priced, product from another manufacturer
Etymology: < Gr kl?n, a twig < klan, to break: see clastic
transitive verb cloned, cloning clon′·ing
When we see and read about clones in books, movies, games, ANYWHERE In popular fiction, what is the one thing in common with clones? Subhuman, cheap... expendable.... slaves..... list goes on. It all boils down to them being pretty much a knock off of the real thing, CLONES ARE BY NATURE, INFERIOR PRODUCTS, that immitate the real thing. Whether its a person, a sheep, or a MMORPG.... a clone is still a clone... So the better question is , if you clone something , why are you trying to sell said clone at same price of the original? The term for selling something fake as the real thing, my friends, is called counterfeiting.
If you have a subpar product/game it merits subpar pricing structure. Nobodys gonna pay 15$ a / mo for a cheap buggy wow immitation, when they can just go play wow, for 15 dollars a month... simple logic really.