Dear Developers, Please stop making games lots of people like. Instead make them just for us. No, we won't pay 2-10 times more to offset the fact that you could sell to 2-10 times more people by appealing to a wider audience. Our demands are reasonable because we claim they are,
-The Hardcore Gamers
Man...every post from you shows just how selfish and close-minded you are. So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
With a sensationalist thread title like "No more casual MMOs", and my sarcastic reply championing the greater good (games everyone likes), is it really me you want to accuse of being selfish?
If you thought I was serious, I could see why you might think I was being selfish and close-minded (because I was parodying the overly selfish and close-minded viewpoint that a lot of hardcore gamers have.)
Yeah, I gotcha now Axehilt (Or see your point in the title). So use to seeing so many posts from you advocating WoW and casual games I was a bit quick to jump the gun there. Apologies.
I don't have a problem with the new wave being casual, but it would be nice to see one MMO that was hardcore personally. It may have EVE sub numbers, but it COULD make profit. As I said though, it won't make that "greed" amount of profits most companies are looking for now though, so it is overlooked...and sad.
Right now the MMO world is flooded with games designed for casual gamers in mind. I Have nothing against casual gamers but their needs to be an MMORPG for the hardcore old school players who desire more of a challenge. Not all of us desire instant gratification. Some of us actually enjoy the time sink/challenge or dedication if you will of eventually rising to the top. If it takes a couple years of hardcore play then so be it. If you don't want that time investment then there are plenty of other options. Old school fostered socialization which is ultimately the key element of game longevity. Games used to be incredibly difficult to level in and it took teamwork/grouping to make any headway at all. I remember grinding for several hours, dieing and losing that plus some with one mistake. I also remember the great accomplishment felt when obtaining a level or new skill. Are there any games in development that will tailor their game to the hard core old school players and stray from the WoW model in the near future. I want a fantasy based game that's not for everybody, one that's too hard for some or requires to much time for some players to play. A game specifically designed for the hardcore PVE/PVP combined market. Something like old school DAOC with modern day graphics..
I read your thread title and imagined it being said like the line "No wire hangers....EVER" from Mommy Dearest. Like you I feel that MMORPGS and computer games in general, have been simplified to the point of complete blandness. Unfortunately though it looks like the industry is set to leave the likes of us behind. What the mainstream wants now is Lady GaGA, not Jimi Hendrix.
"And so castles made of sand slips into the sea, eventually ......"
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Yeah, I gotcha now Axehilt (Or see your point in the title). So use to seeing so many posts from you advocating WoW and casual games I was a bit quick to jump the gun there. Apologies. I don't have a problem with the new wave being casual, but it would be nice to see one MMO that was hardcore personally. It may have EVE sub numbers, but it COULD make profit. As I said though, it won't make that "greed" amount of profits most companies are looking for now though, so it is overlooked...and sad.
To be fair, I admittedly overreacted to the thread title. The rest of the OP's post was much different than his title, and probably not an ideal place for a post that sarcastic. He was asking for at least one hardcore game, which is a very different request than asking for no more casual games. (Although as others have pointed out, there are plenty of games that offer various aspects of the experience he seemed to want.)
I'd say I'm in favor of hardcore games overall. They're the games I play. (Although the definition of "hardcore" is vague and useless and I try to avoid the term when possible.) But yeah, give me a new Planetside (MMOFPS) or Natural Selection (FPS/RTS hybrid). Or even a Darkfall without terrible game mechanics. Starcraft 2 beta's out and I'm playing, but sadly I think my time as a professional balancer has made RTSes too stressful to play -- I'm still alright (don't really know how good Gold division is, actually..) but stress saps a lot of the fun.
At the end of the day, every game has downsides. Nobody should get excited if a post of mine points out the downside of a given game. That's just how I am -- it's basically what most of my career has been actually: playing games and writing feedback (or bugs) on what's wrong.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
hardcore players want games like EQ and 90 era games that take Xhours to play. BUT at the same time they do not always have HOURS to play in a day do to life limits.
BUT at the same time.. more casual players what games that dont take hours to play because they dont have the time to play. BUT because games take no time to play they become shallow and dull... which bores the casual player BECAUSE he wants a game that is intense and enjoyable with the limited time they have.
hardcore player hates the shallow game because its just that shallow.. its like loading up WoW but having it play like Pong.... not exactly hard to play or grasp the simplistic nature of the skill requirements to advance.
and because its too easy casuals find it boring they want WoW with the time factor of Pong.... its a lose lose for a developer...
which i think is why we are stuck with the crap games we have right now... casual games are slowly getting up to EQ levels of enjoyment BUT still hitting the shallow factor cause you cant make a pure hardcore game as you wont attract the larger player base OR atleast the higher spender player base. ultimately developers produce for cold hard cash.. and not to fullfill little timmies zombie or demon slaying wet dreams...
What is hardcore mmo? You guys says its eve but what I can tell is that its easy as Wow. And yes I know that Ivent seen everything in Eve and Ivent done everything, but the little Ive done and seen in 4 months is that the game can seem to be hard to learn but after that its pie And as someone else said Im old and need fun right at the start and EVE has that.
If you want no casual mmo I would suggest Perfect world and that you are not gonna spend any cash on that game. Good luck
Even Allods is hard as hell (I dont know) when you are not buying stuff from their cash shop. There you have your hardcoree game
Well a game that gives you a challange is always a good game;) a game where its like a 2nd job is really bad, felling the need to log in and do your dailys and a few instance and then sit in a town waiting a few hours for your teammates to log in and then do the same crap you did last week.... i personally think thats a good recipe to make stupid people and a game like WoW excels at it;)
The talk about casuals vs hardcore is very simple, a casual player spends a hell of a lot more time in a game then a hardcore player does so saying hardcore players are online more in a MMO is not always right.
I havn't played that many MMO's but ive only played one where the social, hardcore and casual mode was present and that was DAoC.
But who is to say what the furure brings maybe the gamers will start making games the makers themselves wants to play and the Wallstreet people will GTFO of milking gaming companys for fast cash.
I don't know if i consider DAOC old school. Yeah, it came out soon after the big 3, but one huge change towards casual players that daoc made was that when you killed the boss mob, EVERYONE got the item they needed on the first drop.
A true hardcore game would make you wait the 4 hours for the mob spawn, and even then only have a 1 in 4 chance of having the item, and even then, you would have a 1 in 6 chance of getting the item (if you rolled the highest number).
But its not this hardcore portion that made socialization more viable. It was the lack of instance healing. You all had to hang out and heal together (or get mana), before the next spawn. These days people would rather, not wait, and therefore not socialize.
More difficult PvE games will return. We just have to wait.
amen, brother.
Just play WOW. Hard mode is difficult.
WOW = easy is a misconception. WOW has easy parts for people who don't want to wipe 500 times to down a boss. However, if you haven't down the Lich King in hard mode, don't say the whole game is easy.
What irks me is people that expect any and every game to cater to their playstyle and/or the time constraints of their lives. Why should every game provide some form of 'meaningful' content/advancement in 30 minute blocks just because that is all the time you have to spare one or two times a week? Go find something else to play that caters to your time limitations, or suck it up and accept that you won't progress as fast as everyone else.
Because the vast majority of people who are willing to put down their money and keep the game in business fit into that category? Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of MMO players are casual players. That's where the money is, that's where developers are going to put their time and effort.
Dear Developers, Please stop making games lots of people like. Instead make them just for us. No, we won't pay 2-10 times more to offset the fact that you could sell to 2-10 times more people by appealing to a wider audience. Our demands are reasonable because we claim they are,
-The Hardcore Gamers
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
Then those people had better be ready to pay for their preferences because MMOs exist to make money. If hardcore gamers are willing to pay $100 a month, with a 2-year agreement up front, then sure, you might be able to get a game to cater to you. Otherwise, don't hold your breath. These games cost lots of money to develop and to operate. There needs to be a sufficient income to keep it in business.
The OP statement of "No more hardcore games being made" would be true, if you only look at the big budget game houses.
Otherwise, its a problem of perspective by the OP, and ignoring the numerous games out there that do not follow the casual trend.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Dear Developers, Please stop making games lots of people like. Instead make them just for us. No, we won't pay 2-10 times more to offset the fact that you could sell to 2-10 times more people by appealing to a wider audience. Our demands are reasonable because we claim they are,
-The Hardcore Gamers
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
UO was casual friendly from beginning to end. You could go from getting your ass kicked by birds to killing dragons all by yourself, on your own time, when you could play. And you weren't hardcore or some stupid catch phrase of the week. But sadly this idea of scheduling gaming instead of just playing is now the norm.
More difficult PvE games will return. We just have to wait.
I believe this is going to happen also. Most companies have probably figured out that they are not going to be able to pull a lot of casual gamers away from their current game. So they will start trying to make games that target specific groups instead of trying to make games that target the biggest group.
What I do not see happening though is a lot of companies making games with the distorted definition of hardcore that most people hold onto. Most people equate time as the difference between hardcore and casual but it should be defined by what you are doing while you are logged in. If you log in for eight hours and your time consist of sitting in a town and just chatting in global, waiting to hopefully get a spot in a raid and taking on quest and monsters that you have very little or no chance of failing at that is a pretty casual night of gaming. On the other hand you log on for an hour or two and that whole time you/your group are working your way through a dungeon that almost every fight gives a good chance to wipe out that equals a pretty hardcore night of gaming.
Hopefully developers will see that a good amount of people want challenging games but do not want to have the majority of their time filled with time sinks to get into that action.
"Hardcore" gameplay is basically escapism run amok, most people who actually are somewhat successful or normal once they reach around 25 or so years of age, realize this sort of thing is bad and un-fulfulling. Whether it was MMOs or binge drinking they want things more reasonable and less insane and less damaging to other quality things in life.
That isn't to say that some 35 year old doesn't want some other definition of of "hardcore" like being able to raid in WoW or bareknuckle wars like in EvE.
But the old school "hardcore" for many people it was just plain "catass" a way to be completely absorbed in something and not let the real world in at all.
There is a difference between thinking you are hardcore because you cut yourself with a knife regularly or thinking you are hardcore because, I dunno, you do MMA or something. Sure in both cases you are able to be "hard" and take some pain, but the first one is fucked in the head.
Dear Developers, Please stop making games lots of people like. Instead make them just for us. No, we won't pay 2-10 times more to offset the fact that you could sell to 2-10 times more people by appealing to a wider audience. Our demands are reasonable because we claim they are,
-The Hardcore Gamers
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
Then those people had better be ready to pay for their preferences because MMOs exist to make money. If hardcore gamers are willing to pay $100 a month, with a 2-year agreement up front, then sure, you might be able to get a game to cater to you. Otherwise, don't hold your breath. These games cost lots of money to develop and to operate. There needs to be a sufficient income to keep it in business.
No kidding. But what I am saying is that there is a sufficient market for such a game, just look at EVE online. Six years and gaining profit AND more subscriber's by the year. But sadly, companies now are no longer interested in simply making profit....but want to make Blizzard size profit quickly, so such games are just brushed aside in place of easier, cookie-cutter stuff that the "now now now" crowd wants only. Sad that the only driving force is cash anymore and not to also make a quality product that has some ingenuity and imagination put into it...and/or uniqueness.
I'd be willing to pay more for a game if it had depth to it, but I'll be damned if I am going to pay $50 for a game, and then $15 a month on top of that for the same old crap that I can blow through in a month.
No kidding. But what I am saying is that there is a sufficient market for such a game, just look at EVE online. Six years and gaining profit AND more subscriber's by the year. But sadly, companies now are no longer interested in simply making profit....but want to make Blizzard size profit quickly, so such games are just brushed aside in place of easier, cookie-cutter stuff that the "now now now" crowd wants only. Sad that the only driving force is cash anymore and not to also make a quality product that has some ingenuity and imagination put into it...and/or uniqueness. EVE seems to be a special case. It's not necessarily the developers who are trying to get WoW-size profit, it's their investors. These games take a ton of money to develop and market. Investors are going to look at WoW and demand that kind of return and game developers are going to have to promise it or just not get the money to make their game at all. Investors are often completely unrealistic when it comes to their expectations, but it's their money that the developers need so desperately so they're going to go with a game that caters to the majority of players every time. I can't imagine a developer going to an investor and telling them "you're hardly going to make any money, you'll probably lose money because we're making a game for a niche audience" and expect to get a penny. I'd be willing to pay more for a game if it had depth to it, but I'll be damned if I am going to pay $50 for a game, and then $15 a month on top of that for the same old crap that I can blow through in a month. Then stop playing so much. I've yet to see an MMO that you can blow through completely in a month and see every bit of content. It just can't be done. But when someone is playing 24/7 and they burn through content, what do they expect? There's no game, no activity whatsoever that you cannot burn through quickly if it becomes your life.
It's the expectation that you have to race to end-game that causes people to blow through content.
No kidding. But what I am saying is that there is a sufficient market for such a game, just look at EVE online. Six years and gaining profit AND more subscriber's by the year. But sadly, companies now are no longer interested in simply making profit....but want to make Blizzard size profit quickly, so such games are just brushed aside in place of easier, cookie-cutter stuff that the "now now now" crowd wants only. Sad that the only driving force is cash anymore and not to also make a quality product that has some ingenuity and imagination put into it...and/or uniqueness. EVE seems to be a special case. It's not necessarily the developers who are trying to get WoW-size profit, it's their investors. These games take a ton of money to develop and market. Investors are going to look at WoW and demand that kind of return and game developers are going to have to promise it or just not get the money to make their game at all. Investors are often completely unrealistic when it comes to their expectations, but it's their money that the developers need so desperately so they're going to go with a game that caters to the majority of players every time. I can't imagine a developer going to an investor and telling them "you're hardly going to make any money, you'll probably lose money because we're making a game for a niche audience" and expect to get a penny. I'd be willing to pay more for a game if it had depth to it, but I'll be damned if I am going to pay $50 for a game, and then $15 a month on top of that for the same old crap that I can blow through in a month. Then stop playing so much. I've yet to see an MMO that you can blow through completely in a month and see every bit of content. It just can't be done. But when someone is playing 24/7 and they burn through content, what do they expect? There's no game, no activity whatsoever that you cannot burn through quickly if it becomes your life.
It's the expectation that you have to race to end-game that causes people to blow through content.
I don't play 24/7. Have a job, a kid, a woman, school, etc. Hell, not even playing an MMO right now because they are all too easy and not worth a monthly sub. Even only playing a few hours a day I can get to end game in a month, maybe two tops. Just no challenge compared to older MMO's and not difficult to do it, even without trying.Guess I am just burned out by them because it's just the same regurgitated garbage over and over with a new shiny wrapper to suck you in. Why I rather play games like EMPIRE Total War, Cities XL, etc. More challenge and fun. FF XIV and SWTOR will more than likely be my last hope(s) for playing MMO's at all after them. Well...I am watching Everquest Next's development as well.
On a side note, IMO MMORPG's are suppose to be about the journey, not the destination anyways.
Dear Developers, Please stop making games lots of people like. Instead make them just for us. No, we won't pay 2-10 times more to offset the fact that you could sell to 2-10 times more people by appealing to a wider audience. Our demands are reasonable because we claim they are,
-The Hardcore Gamers
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
UO was casual friendly from beginning to end. You could go from getting your ass kicked by birds to killing dragons all by yourself, on your own time, when you could play. And you weren't hardcore or some stupid catch phrase of the week. But sadly this idea of scheduling gaming instead of just playing is now the norm.
Casual-friendly has a lot to do with "how hard is it to find the fun?" Admittedly my only experience with UO (aside from watching a friend play during its prime) was the trial 2-3 years ago, but it seemed insanely hard to find fun in that game compared to WOW where fun is shoved in your face from the start.
WOW is the nice restaurant. You show up, you're seated, you order, you eat.
In other "restaurants" you show up and you're forced to cook your own food.
In others, you show up and have to search a 40-story office building for the ingredients and stove before you can cook your own food.
In others, the 40-story office building is actually empty -- devoid of food.
Food is the purpose of restaurants. Some people would enjoy the "Cook it yourself" experience, and a hardcore minority would enjoy the "Search, Cook, and Eat" experience, but the more obstacles to the restaurant serving its purpose, the less casual the experience is.
Fun is the purpose of games. The more obstacles, the less casual the experience.
That's why I don't see UO as casual. I got there and felt like I had to search a 40-story office building for the ingredients and stove, just to get my fun. I think I got bored searching, simply gnawed on the raw ingredients I found (I mined a bunch) and gave up because I never ended up with the meal I'd come to the restaurant for.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this.
I often see it. It's always wrong.
The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc.
You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Competition is a good thing...keep casual MMOs......do you not get it? if not for casual MMOs we would probably not have non-casual ones. simple as that.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this. I often see it. It's always wrong. The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc. You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
Comments
Man...every post from you shows just how selfish and close-minded you are. So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
With a sensationalist thread title like "No more casual MMOs", and my sarcastic reply championing the greater good (games everyone likes), is it really me you want to accuse of being selfish?
If you thought I was serious, I could see why you might think I was being selfish and close-minded (because I was parodying the overly selfish and close-minded viewpoint that a lot of hardcore gamers have.)
Yeah, I gotcha now Axehilt (Or see your point in the title). So use to seeing so many posts from you advocating WoW and casual games I was a bit quick to jump the gun there. Apologies.
I don't have a problem with the new wave being casual, but it would be nice to see one MMO that was hardcore personally. It may have EVE sub numbers, but it COULD make profit. As I said though, it won't make that "greed" amount of profits most companies are looking for now though, so it is overlooked...and sad.
I read your thread title and imagined it being said like the line "No wire hangers....EVER" from Mommy Dearest. Like you I feel that MMORPGS and computer games in general, have been simplified to the point of complete blandness. Unfortunately though it looks like the industry is set to leave the likes of us behind. What the mainstream wants now is Lady GaGA, not Jimi Hendrix.
"And so castles made of sand slips into the sea, eventually ......"
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
To be fair, I admittedly overreacted to the thread title. The rest of the OP's post was much different than his title, and probably not an ideal place for a post that sarcastic. He was asking for at least one hardcore game, which is a very different request than asking for no more casual games. (Although as others have pointed out, there are plenty of games that offer various aspects of the experience he seemed to want.)
I'd say I'm in favor of hardcore games overall. They're the games I play. (Although the definition of "hardcore" is vague and useless and I try to avoid the term when possible.) But yeah, give me a new Planetside (MMOFPS) or Natural Selection (FPS/RTS hybrid). Or even a Darkfall without terrible game mechanics. Starcraft 2 beta's out and I'm playing, but sadly I think my time as a professional balancer has made RTSes too stressful to play -- I'm still alright (don't really know how good Gold division is, actually..) but stress saps a lot of the fun.
At the end of the day, every game has downsides. Nobody should get excited if a post of mine points out the downside of a given game. That's just how I am -- it's basically what most of my career has been actually: playing games and writing feedback (or bugs) on what's wrong.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
saddly neither party will be satisfied.
hardcore players want games like EQ and 90 era games that take Xhours to play. BUT at the same time they do not always have HOURS to play in a day do to life limits.
BUT at the same time.. more casual players what games that dont take hours to play because they dont have the time to play. BUT because games take no time to play they become shallow and dull... which bores the casual player BECAUSE he wants a game that is intense and enjoyable with the limited time they have.
hardcore player hates the shallow game because its just that shallow.. its like loading up WoW but having it play like Pong.... not exactly hard to play or grasp the simplistic nature of the skill requirements to advance.
and because its too easy casuals find it boring they want WoW with the time factor of Pong....
its a lose lose for a developer...
which i think is why we are stuck with the crap games we have right now... casual games are slowly getting up to EQ levels of enjoyment BUT still hitting the shallow factor
cause you cant make a pure hardcore game as you wont attract the larger player base OR atleast the higher spender player base. ultimately developers produce for cold hard cash.. and not to fullfill little timmies zombie or demon slaying wet dreams...
i miss those old days
well i think Luminary online can be a casual MMO, i played it before but i already quit.
What is hardcore mmo? You guys says its eve but what I can tell is that its easy as Wow. And yes I know that Ivent seen everything in Eve and Ivent done everything, but the little Ive done and seen in 4 months is that the game can seem to be hard to learn but after that its pie
And as someone else said Im old and need fun right at the start and EVE has that.
If you want no casual mmo I would suggest Perfect world and that you are not gonna spend any cash on that game. Good luck
Even Allods is hard as hell (I dont know) when you are not buying stuff from their cash shop. There you have your hardcoree game
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
Well a game that gives you a challange is always a good game;) a game where its like a 2nd job is really bad, felling the need to log in and do your dailys and a few instance and then sit in a town waiting a few hours for your teammates to log in and then do the same crap you did last week.... i personally think thats a good recipe to make stupid people and a game like WoW excels at it;)
The talk about casuals vs hardcore is very simple, a casual player spends a hell of a lot more time in a game then a hardcore player does so saying hardcore players are online more in a MMO is not always right.
I havn't played that many MMO's but ive only played one where the social, hardcore and casual mode was present and that was DAoC.
But who is to say what the furure brings maybe the gamers will start making games the makers themselves wants to play and the Wallstreet people will GTFO of milking gaming companys for fast cash.
DAoC/GW/Lotro/WoW/WAR/Rift/SWTor
I don't know if i consider DAOC old school. Yeah, it came out soon after the big 3, but one huge change towards casual players that daoc made was that when you killed the boss mob, EVERYONE got the item they needed on the first drop.
A true hardcore game would make you wait the 4 hours for the mob spawn, and even then only have a 1 in 4 chance of having the item, and even then, you would have a 1 in 6 chance of getting the item (if you rolled the highest number).
But its not this hardcore portion that made socialization more viable. It was the lack of instance healing. You all had to hang out and heal together (or get mana), before the next spawn. These days people would rather, not wait, and therefore not socialize.
amen, brother.
Just play WOW. Hard mode is difficult.
WOW = easy is a misconception. WOW has easy parts for people who don't want to wipe 500 times to down a boss. However, if you haven't down the Lich King in hard mode, don't say the whole game is easy.
Because the vast majority of people who are willing to put down their money and keep the game in business fit into that category? Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of MMO players are casual players. That's where the money is, that's where developers are going to put their time and effort.
Deal.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
Then those people had better be ready to pay for their preferences because MMOs exist to make money. If hardcore gamers are willing to pay $100 a month, with a 2-year agreement up front, then sure, you might be able to get a game to cater to you. Otherwise, don't hold your breath. These games cost lots of money to develop and to operate. There needs to be a sufficient income to keep it in business.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The OP statement of "No more hardcore games being made" would be true, if you only look at the big budget game houses.
Otherwise, its a problem of perspective by the OP, and ignoring the numerous games out there that do not follow the casual trend.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
UO was casual friendly from beginning to end. You could go from getting your ass kicked by birds to killing dragons all by yourself, on your own time, when you could play. And you weren't hardcore or some stupid catch phrase of the week. But sadly this idea of scheduling gaming instead of just playing is now the norm.
I believe this is going to happen also. Most companies have probably figured out that they are not going to be able to pull a lot of casual gamers away from their current game. So they will start trying to make games that target specific groups instead of trying to make games that target the biggest group.
What I do not see happening though is a lot of companies making games with the distorted definition of hardcore that most people hold onto. Most people equate time as the difference between hardcore and casual but it should be defined by what you are doing while you are logged in. If you log in for eight hours and your time consist of sitting in a town and just chatting in global, waiting to hopefully get a spot in a raid and taking on quest and monsters that you have very little or no chance of failing at that is a pretty casual night of gaming. On the other hand you log on for an hour or two and that whole time you/your group are working your way through a dungeon that almost every fight gives a good chance to wipe out that equals a pretty hardcore night of gaming.
Hopefully developers will see that a good amount of people want challenging games but do not want to have the majority of their time filled with time sinks to get into that action.
"Hardcore" gameplay is basically escapism run amok, most people who actually are somewhat successful or normal once they reach around 25 or so years of age, realize this sort of thing is bad and un-fulfulling. Whether it was MMOs or binge drinking they want things more reasonable and less insane and less damaging to other quality things in life.
That isn't to say that some 35 year old doesn't want some other definition of of "hardcore" like being able to raid in WoW or bareknuckle wars like in EvE.
But the old school "hardcore" for many people it was just plain "catass" a way to be completely absorbed in something and not let the real world in at all.
There is a difference between thinking you are hardcore because you cut yourself with a knife regularly or thinking you are hardcore because, I dunno, you do MMA or something. Sure in both cases you are able to be "hard" and take some pain, but the first one is fucked in the head.
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
Then those people had better be ready to pay for their preferences because MMOs exist to make money. If hardcore gamers are willing to pay $100 a month, with a 2-year agreement up front, then sure, you might be able to get a game to cater to you. Otherwise, don't hold your breath. These games cost lots of money to develop and to operate. There needs to be a sufficient income to keep it in business.
No kidding. But what I am saying is that there is a sufficient market for such a game, just look at EVE online. Six years and gaining profit AND more subscriber's by the year. But sadly, companies now are no longer interested in simply making profit....but want to make Blizzard size profit quickly, so such games are just brushed aside in place of easier, cookie-cutter stuff that the "now now now" crowd wants only. Sad that the only driving force is cash anymore and not to also make a quality product that has some ingenuity and imagination put into it...and/or uniqueness.
I'd be willing to pay more for a game if it had depth to it, but I'll be damned if I am going to pay $50 for a game, and then $15 a month on top of that for the same old crap that I can blow through in a month.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I don't play 24/7. Have a job, a kid, a woman, school, etc. Hell, not even playing an MMO right now because they are all too easy and not worth a monthly sub. Even only playing a few hours a day I can get to end game in a month, maybe two tops. Just no challenge compared to older MMO's and not difficult to do it, even without trying.Guess I am just burned out by them because it's just the same regurgitated garbage over and over with a new shiny wrapper to suck you in. Why I rather play games like EMPIRE Total War, Cities XL, etc. More challenge and fun. FF XIV and SWTOR will more than likely be my last hope(s) for playing MMO's at all after them. Well...I am watching Everquest Next's development as well.
On a side note, IMO MMORPG's are suppose to be about the journey, not the destination anyways.
So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
[Mod Edit]
UO was casual friendly from beginning to end. You could go from getting your ass kicked by birds to killing dragons all by yourself, on your own time, when you could play. And you weren't hardcore or some stupid catch phrase of the week. But sadly this idea of scheduling gaming instead of just playing is now the norm.
Casual-friendly has a lot to do with "how hard is it to find the fun?" Admittedly my only experience with UO (aside from watching a friend play during its prime) was the trial 2-3 years ago, but it seemed insanely hard to find fun in that game compared to WOW where fun is shoved in your face from the start.
Food is the purpose of restaurants. Some people would enjoy the "Cook it yourself" experience, and a hardcore minority would enjoy the "Search, Cook, and Eat" experience, but the more obstacles to the restaurant serving its purpose, the less casual the experience is.
Fun is the purpose of games. The more obstacles, the less casual the experience.
That's why I don't see UO as casual. I got there and felt like I had to search a 40-story office building for the ingredients and stove, just to get my fun. I think I got bored searching, simply gnawed on the raw ingredients I found (I mined a bunch) and gave up because I never ended up with the meal I'd come to the restaurant for.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this.
I often see it. It's always wrong.
The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc.
You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Competition is a good thing...keep casual MMOs......do you not get it? if not for casual MMOs we would probably not have non-casual ones. simple as that.
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
How? How could I be competitive against that?