Say there are 10 servers of the base game, what the devs “envisioned”.
Then the devs create one server for perma death. One for hardcore players, where the creatures are a lot tougher.
So other players not wanting to deal with perma death or hardcore players can play on a vanilla server. But the players wanting a challenge can play on a server tailored to make it insane.
I would like to play on a perma death server once, just to check it out. I don’t think there would be a lot of people on it. But there are a lot of options to making a server distinctively different from one another.
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up...
For the love of God, how many god damb times do we have to go through debunking this retarded myth? FFS YES YOU CAN "CATCH UP"
IT'S REALLY GOD DAMB EASY BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY USE SO MANY SKILLPOINTS AT ONCE BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY FLY ONE SHIP AT ONCE.
IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY SKILLPOINTS YOU OR THE OTHER GUY HAVE. SKILLPOINTS ARE NOT LEVELS. TRY AND UNDERSTAND THIS BASIC CONCEPT.
There, now look what you made me do. That was your fault. I hope you're happy.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this. I often see it. It's always wrong. The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc. You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
How? How could I be competitive against that?
Well for one thing, you could try not being dumb and picking fights vs 5 guys when you're on your own.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this. I often see it. It's always wrong. The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc. You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
How? How could I be competitive against that?
Well for one thing, you could try not being dumb and picking fights vs 5 guys when you're on your own.
+1 LOL!!!!!!!!!
Maybe make some friends, join a corp that will roam with you.
You know... fleet up in a mmo.
I swear why do all of these guys complaining about eve only ever talk about solo viability in pvp? Hello its a group focused game!!
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
Before WoW some studio would make you pay for unfinished expansions with quests broken on purpose so you won't discover what's written on the box will be developed after release with your subscription fees. And I'm not talking about a mere DX10 feature, but totally lacking content.
Before WoW it was "normal" to pay for a game bugged as hell, devs taking the easy road of saying nobody has ever made a polished MMO and that's impossible.
Before WoW your sister / mate / uncle ... dog would not even consider playing PC games
Before WoW major interruptions were normal and you would never ever be credited of any free play day(s).
Before WoW the UI was in the best case half customizable, not to say addons were seriously lacking.
Before WoW soloing in MMO wasn't really an option.
WoW is far from perfect but you can't deny it brought many GOOD things to the genre.
I was a hardcore player back in the days of EQ1, AC1, and DAOC. But you know what? 10 years later I'm no longer interested in most of the hardcore elements from back in the days. Things such as forced grouping to level, losing items on death, losing your level, taking 30 mins to get from one place to another, raid or quit endgame menality, forcing people to camp 12-15 hours straight for a named mob/item, etc.. I find these things tedious and there's no reason we need to bring back these outdated elements in today's MMO's. There are plenty of other ways to challenge player, plenty of other ways to design endgame content, plenty of other features games can offer to players that give them something to do.
Now, the market did test release some "hardcore" games, and honestly they haven't done very well. So do people really want it hardcore? Are people as hardcore as they claim to be? I really don't think people want all the "hardcore" things I mentioned above in one MMO. But I always say, people on the forums always love to talk about how they want it hardcore. When it comes to actually playing them, these loud voices are nowhere to be seen in the so called hardcore games. I just don't believe people really want games as hardcore as they claim these days.
Right now the MMO world is flooded with games designed for casual gamers in mind. I Have nothing against casual gamers but their needs to be an MMORPG for the hardcore old school players who desire more of a challenge. Not all of us desire instant gratification. Some of us actually enjoy the time sink/challenge or dedication if you will of eventually rising to the top. If it takes a couple years of hardcore play then so be it. If you don't want that time investment then there are plenty of other options. Old school fostered socialization which is ultimately the key element of game longevity. Games used to be incredibly difficult to level in and it took teamwork/grouping to make any headway at all. I remember grinding for several hours, dieing and losing that plus some with one mistake. I also remember the great accomplishment felt when obtaining a level or new skill. Are there any games in development that will tailor their game to the hard core old school players and stray from the WoW model in the near future. I want a fantasy based game that's not for everybody, one that's too hard for some or requires to much time for some players to play. A game specifically designed for the hardcore PVE/PVP combined market. Something like old school DAOC with modern day graphics..
For the love of god those things are not hardcore and most hardcore gamer hate it just as much as casual do. Please don't group those masochistic people with us hardcore player. The only thing us hardcore player care about is how difficult the game/encounter is and the amount of skills it takes to beat it. We don't give a rat ass and for the most part do not enjoy all the time sink feature that are added to extend the life of the game. When things get too easy, us hardcore player put artificial limitation on ourselves to make the game harder thus more interesting for us. Us hardcore player for the most part dislike the idea that someone is better than us simply because they been there longer. When hardcore player say they preferred a skill based game, the meant a game where the skill of the gamer is more important than what item or skill my toon possessed.
Once again, people are want harsh penalty and time sink are not masochist, not hardcore. Stop using the term hardcore, it is an insult to us true hardcore gamer.
Something like old school DAOC with modern day graphics..
i was with you until this. Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrott?
classic DAOC hardcore? The leveling pace wasnt exactly "fast" by nowaday's standards, but back then it was about right, and anyway that game had nothing of hardcore,actually it was one of the first casual games of its age lmao
log in, get your adrenaline fix, leave when you want, and high RR didnt even mean much.
You must not of had much experience with DAOC i was a 2nd week release player. Leveling was very difficult for hardcore players and casual players eventually caught up. Many weren't even fixated on leveling as they actually enjoyed the experience. You know something modern day MMO's dont have?. There has yet to be a game released that was PVP based, team based as fun as DAOC was and you know their may never be another. You know the best way to describe old school DAOC was people helping people. I still remain friends with ex-old school DAOC players. Most don't play at all anymore. DAOC is WOW like now and none of them *old school friends* are interested and neither am I. DAOC was definately not a casual game at release thats for sure.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this. I often see it. It's always wrong. The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc. You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
How? How could I be competitive against that?
Well for one thing, you could try not being dumb and picking fights vs 5 guys when you're on your own.
Malcanis nailed it here; you don't win a 5 vs 1 in any MMO.
What you can do in a matter of weeks is specialise your skillpoints and be as effective in a specific ship as any other player regardless of how long they've been playing. There's no difference between a 5 year old player and a specialised 6 month old player when they're flying identical ships.
Specialise, join a Corporation and EVE is very newbie friendly.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this.
I often see it. It's always wrong.
The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc.
You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
I tried EVE for about a month and was totally bored with Space lol. Its a great game for those who like space PVP undoubtedly. Yeah its a hardcore space PVP game thats for sure. I do like the premise that somebody that just started really has no chance against a 3 year veteran who has paid there dues in learning the game. That's the way it should be.
I don't see an issue with casual mmos and I certainly don't think developer will stop making hardcore mmos. Im playing two right now, theres about 5-6 on the market that i could switch two and about 5 in development. Whats the problem? No AAA hardcore games? Have you played AAA mmos recently? Its pathetic.
My issue was not with casual games or players. My issue was with the lack of developer gearing for an alternative audience per say. As a salesman who would want to sell the same thing the other game was doing. Why not capture a market. There are a gazillion casual MMO's. I went from hardcore to casual. I played WOW for a couple years even though i felt unchallenged at all by that game. It never had the feel of old school MMO's like DAOC, EQ1, Asherons etc, etc. The more i reflect the more i realize just how important the actual game experience was.. When i played WOW it was all about how fast i could use Hotbot to hand feed me quests so i could level to the max and have nothing to do at all. None of the old school games handed us anything. Heck i remember searching for hours for a dang roaming quest NPC lol having to avoid death at all times to get to this NPC. The gaming experience.
I remember hunting in PVP zones being ambushed by the brave souls that would even venture there. Since there were no maps to walk players around or teleports you actually had to use your brain in 3 different realms to find your destination. I could simply evade a foe because of my superior knowledge of the land. That's kinda my point. I had to invest my time in this game to obtain this knowledge. People depended on me to get them somewhere alive. We depended on each other to be successful as a team
This is where the actual focus of per say hardcore gaming lost when they started having in game maps, teleportation portals etc hand feeding casual players either to lazy or lacking the time to learn the game. I have a job, a family and i have the free time to play however long i want to whenever i want to. It's really not my problem if somebody has a hour or two a day to play max. There are plenty of games for that clientele. I just want a NEW game that is more challenging, doesnt attract teens looking for instant gratification game. You know a game thats an actual experience for heavens sake.
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this.
I often see it. It's always wrong.
The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc.
You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Another misconception sadly. Starting a new char in EvE takes months to get to compeditive. You will not encounter people that doesnt have 90% of their gunnery/armor/shield//navigaion skills done in low sec nowadays. And those who used to roam with battlecruisers and battleships are now flying heavy assault ships and command ships.
Sadly EvE has gone past its golden era for new players. Im a 100% trained heavy assault pilot living in 0.0 (on hold for the moment) and it was alot more fun when everyone was new and a encounter could end with very difrent results. Unless your skilled as hell or flying a command ship or like a really good fitted domi your gonna get ganked in gate camps, bubbles and roaming gang which is what EvE pvp is nowadays.
I love EvE with all my heart but it just aint the same anymore.
I don't see an issue with casual mmos and I certainly don't think developer will stop making hardcore mmos. Im playing two right now, theres about 5-6 on the market that i could switch two and about 5 in development. Whats the problem? No AAA hardcore games? Have you played AAA mmos recently? Its pathetic.
My issue was not with casual games or players. My issue was with the lack of developer gearing for an alternative audience per say. As a salesman who would want to sell the same thing the other game was doing. Why not capture a market. There are a gazillion casual MMO's. I went from hardcore to casual. I played WOW for a couple years even though i felt unchallenged at all by that game. It never had the feel of old school MMO's like DAOC, EQ1, Asherons etc, etc. The more i reflect the more i realize just how important the actual game experience was.. When i played WOW it was all about how fast i could use Hotbot to hand feed me quests so i could level to the max and have nothing to do at all. None of the old school games handed us anything. Heck i remember searching for hours for a dang roaming quest NPC lol having to avoid death at all times to get to this NPC. The gaming experience.
I remember hunting in PVP zones being ambushed by the brave souls that would even venture there. Since there were no maps to walk players around or teleports you actually had to use your brain in 3 different realms to find your destination. I could simply evade a foe because of my superior knowledge of the land. That's kinda my point. I had to invest my time in this game to obtain this knowledge. People depended on me to get them somewhere alive. We depended on each other to be successful as a team
This is where the actual focus of per say hardcore gaming lost when they started having in game maps, teleportation portals etc hand feeding casual players either to lazy or lacking the time to learn the game. I have a job, a family and i have the free time to play however long i want to whenever i want to. It's really not my problem if somebody has a hour or two a day to play max. There are plenty of games for that clientele. I just want a NEW game that is more challenging, doesnt attract teens looking for instant gratification game. You know a game thats an actual experience for heavens sake.
I understand.
Wanting a new game that caters to what your specific gameplay preference is, is something we all want even the casuals on this site.
I guess you will have to wait for a new indy game. I'm playing games right now that require major time investment but they still have things you consider Easy or casually targeted like mini-maps and the option to solo (slowly).
I don't know if we will ever return to the old EQ or AC days. Hardcore mmos have released recently and are coming down the pipe that still would be considered Ezmode for someone like you.
.......clipped...... While any more I am more of a casual player, I still prefer the old hardcore gameplay. Sure it will take me a long time to get to the max level but thats how it should be. Also all the raids and what not being put at the end of the game is stupid.All it does is force people to rush to the end. In EQ you had meaningful dungeons, items, and camps for EVERY level. You always had something to enjoy. Never once did I think, hey, I need to rush to level 60 because thats when the fun starts. I had fun every single day I logged in. The whole idea of "end game" is ruining MMOs. ....clipped..... I could go on forever about how games have been going in a backwards evolution. Hopefully one day it changes. I am praying FFXIV decides to stick with their fan base from FFXI and has very little solo content. While I agree there should be some, it definitely shouldn't be the preferred method of leveling up. It should be a last resort if you cant find a group. Hopefully we get a challenging, complex, group based game with a wonderful community. Even as a casual player, I hate the casual games of todays market.
I don't need to add anything to what's highlighted up there, imo. The same words could have come from my own mouth, so...I'll just quote you instead. The underlining of your words...is my own. I just did that to further emphasize what you said.
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
For the love of god, WoW is not about getting to the end game. WoW is about the end game. Level 1-79 is really nothing more than a super long tutorial that pretty much used to get player getting the intricate in and out of the game. Of course level is easy, when you have 95 percent of your populations are at the max possible level. It only make sense to speed up the process of the lower level player so they can for the most part enjoy the content that 95 percent of the population is currently enjoying.
Hopefully will Guildwars 2 have some pretty hard parts (ever played GW in hard mode?).
Other than that, CCPs "World of darkness online" will most likely have some good hard action.
I agree with you, I have no problem that there are some easy games out there but now all games are easy and that kinda sucks. Some people prefer easy game and that is fun but the current trend to make everything as easy as possible is getting annoying.
I partly blame the holy trial of tank,spank and healer. It encourages players to stand in the same place and pushing a few buttons, a more action oriented combat system would force players to think fast or die.
The system of static bosses that always are exactly the same doesn't really help either, some random skills would help.
Nowadays it seems like they just add more hitpoints and armor when they want to make something hard, and you can always find the easiest way to defeat a boss on wiki, there are no nasty surprises in MMOs anymore.
The trend of making all games easier will turn sooner or later as all trends it can make MMOs look like games only for children if things will continue the way it have the last 5 years.
all this talk of how great WOW is.. really makes me ill... talking about what wow has or hasnt done to the video game market is like compairing high end chief dishes to mcdonalds
past games, were built to last. they were designed from the start to give you the drive to reach the end. then you get the next version. case in point look at the OLD RPGS. kings quest. curse of money island ect. stories with drive and desire to reach the end.
wow really doesnt have that.
WOW can be comparied to fast food. people do not want to cook high end burgers and fries at home, instead they drive out to some joint and get them self a bigmac and fries.
that is WOW. instead of being limited to people who want to play it and finish it, it opened up games to every joe blow and timmy bucktooth.
while that is great and everything, it also crippled the market at the same time. where the old games had a desire to out do the next. games today try to repeat wow. instead of outdoing it they just want to repeat it
a burger is a burger... no matter how you cook it. wow is wow no matter what you call it. saddly games now.. just want to repeat wow CAUSE they know they can create that kind of hype and cash.. so they want to... BUT they loose sight of what they want and just make a new wow...
its like making a burger with slices of bread instead of a bun. with horseradish and green peppers instead of mustard/ketchup and tomatos..
only when game developers figure out how to make a new game that isnt wow ... we will just have repeats of wow T_T debate that all you want... it wont change the fact ... WoW sells i hate WoW for that very reason. a decent game that basicly killed games at the same time
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there? There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways. If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
And this is exactly what is WRONG with modern day MMO's. Most MMO veterans like myself won't waste the money on a new title that has any taste thats WOW like. We don't want more WOW games. All WoW like games have pretty much flopped since they release because of lack of interest. Please like many have said 1 gazillion times reference subscriptions to where they prevail. The U.S only has a very small percentage of the WOW subscriber base. This game rules in Asia thats for sure but so do alot of asian developed games. Right now the MMO market is stagnant as it's ever been. I hope to see that change soon.
No one in their right mind should be advocating for "casual" MMOs. Developers love it because it makes it to where they have to have very little content to complete. I don't care if you think you are "casual" or "hardcore", a game that take a long time to complete is good for both groups. It means you are getting more game for your money.
And for the person stating Vanguard was "hardcore", I imagine you haven't played it. SOE has turned it into one of the shortest games there is to finish it. If you want to play a game that takes a long time to complete today, it doesn't exist.
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there? There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways. If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
Leveling in WoW is nothing anymore, why should it exist? I enjoyed the original version of WoW. The current version is crap.
Comments
Just create several niche servers for the game.
Example:
Say there are 10 servers of the base game, what the devs “envisioned”.
Then the devs create one server for perma death. One for hardcore players, where the creatures are a lot tougher.
So other players not wanting to deal with perma death or hardcore players can play on a vanilla server. But the players wanting a challenge can play on a server tailored to make it insane.
I would like to play on a perma death server once, just to check it out. I don’t think there would be a lot of people on it. But there are a lot of options to making a server distinctively different from one another.
For the love of God, how many god damb times do we have to go through debunking this retarded myth? FFS YES YOU CAN "CATCH UP"
IT'S REALLY GOD DAMB EASY BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY USE SO MANY SKILLPOINTS AT ONCE BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY FLY ONE SHIP AT ONCE.
IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY SKILLPOINTS YOU OR THE OTHER GUY HAVE. SKILLPOINTS ARE NOT LEVELS. TRY AND UNDERSTAND THIS BASIC CONCEPT.
There, now look what you made me do. That was your fault. I hope you're happy.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
How? How could I be competitive against that?
Well for one thing, you could try not being dumb and picking fights vs 5 guys when you're on your own.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
How? How could I be competitive against that?
Well for one thing, you could try not being dumb and picking fights vs 5 guys when you're on your own.
+1 LOL!!!!!!!!!
Maybe make some friends, join a corp that will roam with you.
You know... fleet up in a mmo.
I swear why do all of these guys complaining about eve only ever talk about solo viability in pvp? Hello its a group focused game!!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
Before WoW some studio would make you pay for unfinished expansions with quests broken on purpose so you won't discover what's written on the box will be developed after release with your subscription fees. And I'm not talking about a mere DX10 feature, but totally lacking content.
Before WoW it was "normal" to pay for a game bugged as hell, devs taking the easy road of saying nobody has ever made a polished MMO and that's impossible.
Before WoW your sister / mate / uncle ... dog would not even consider playing PC games
Before WoW major interruptions were normal and you would never ever be credited of any free play day(s).
Before WoW the UI was in the best case half customizable, not to say addons were seriously lacking.
Before WoW soloing in MMO wasn't really an option.
WoW is far from perfect but you can't deny it brought many GOOD things to the genre.
I was a hardcore player back in the days of EQ1, AC1, and DAOC. But you know what? 10 years later I'm no longer interested in most of the hardcore elements from back in the days. Things such as forced grouping to level, losing items on death, losing your level, taking 30 mins to get from one place to another, raid or quit endgame menality, forcing people to camp 12-15 hours straight for a named mob/item, etc.. I find these things tedious and there's no reason we need to bring back these outdated elements in today's MMO's. There are plenty of other ways to challenge player, plenty of other ways to design endgame content, plenty of other features games can offer to players that give them something to do.
Now, the market did test release some "hardcore" games, and honestly they haven't done very well. So do people really want it hardcore? Are people as hardcore as they claim to be? I really don't think people want all the "hardcore" things I mentioned above in one MMO. But I always say, people on the forums always love to talk about how they want it hardcore. When it comes to actually playing them, these loud voices are nowhere to be seen in the so called hardcore games. I just don't believe people really want games as hardcore as they claim these days.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Play Age of Conan.
For the love of god those things are not hardcore and most hardcore gamer hate it just as much as casual do. Please don't group those masochistic people with us hardcore player. The only thing us hardcore player care about is how difficult the game/encounter is and the amount of skills it takes to beat it. We don't give a rat ass and for the most part do not enjoy all the time sink feature that are added to extend the life of the game. When things get too easy, us hardcore player put artificial limitation on ourselves to make the game harder thus more interesting for us. Us hardcore player for the most part dislike the idea that someone is better than us simply because they been there longer. When hardcore player say they preferred a skill based game, the meant a game where the skill of the gamer is more important than what item or skill my toon possessed.
Once again, people are want harsh penalty and time sink are not masochist, not hardcore. Stop using the term hardcore, it is an insult to us true hardcore gamer.
I don't see an issue with casual mmos and I certainly don't think developer will stop making hardcore mmos.
Im playing two right now, theres about 5-6 on the market that i could switch two and about 5 in development.
Whats the problem? No AAA hardcore games? Have you played AAA mmos recently? Its pathetic.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
i was with you until this. Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrott?
classic DAOC hardcore? The leveling pace wasnt exactly "fast" by nowaday's standards, but back then it was about right, and anyway that game had nothing of hardcore,actually it was one of the first casual games of its age lmao
log in, get your adrenaline fix, leave when you want, and high RR didnt even mean much.
You must not of had much experience with DAOC i was a 2nd week release player. Leveling was very difficult for hardcore players and casual players eventually caught up. Many weren't even fixated on leveling as they actually enjoyed the experience. You know something modern day MMO's dont have?. There has yet to be a game released that was PVP based, team based as fun as DAOC was and you know their may never be another. You know the best way to describe old school DAOC was people helping people. I still remain friends with ex-old school DAOC players. Most don't play at all anymore. DAOC is WOW like now and none of them *old school friends* are interested and neither am I. DAOC was definately not a casual game at release thats for sure.
Please explain. I do not understand what you mean. So lets say I start today... You're telling me that within weeks I can take a frigate out of .6 and lower space and not get wiped by 5 dudes camping the gate, waiting for little ol' newbie me to go exploring because I can specialize my skill training and actually fight off people who outskill me by 100 million points?
How? How could I be competitive against that?
Well for one thing, you could try not being dumb and picking fights vs 5 guys when you're on your own.
Malcanis nailed it here; you don't win a 5 vs 1 in any MMO.
What you can do in a matter of weeks is specialise your skillpoints and be as effective in a specific ship as any other player regardless of how long they've been playing. There's no difference between a 5 year old player and a specialised 6 month old player when they're flying identical ships.
Specialise, join a Corporation and EVE is very newbie friendly.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this.
I often see it. It's always wrong.
The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc.
You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
I tried EVE for about a month and was totally bored with Space lol. Its a great game for those who like space PVP undoubtedly. Yeah its a hardcore space PVP game thats for sure. I do like the premise that somebody that just started really has no chance against a 3 year veteran who has paid there dues in learning the game. That's the way it should be.
My issue was not with casual games or players. My issue was with the lack of developer gearing for an alternative audience per say. As a salesman who would want to sell the same thing the other game was doing. Why not capture a market. There are a gazillion casual MMO's. I went from hardcore to casual. I played WOW for a couple years even though i felt unchallenged at all by that game. It never had the feel of old school MMO's like DAOC, EQ1, Asherons etc, etc. The more i reflect the more i realize just how important the actual game experience was.. When i played WOW it was all about how fast i could use Hotbot to hand feed me quests so i could level to the max and have nothing to do at all. None of the old school games handed us anything. Heck i remember searching for hours for a dang roaming quest NPC lol having to avoid death at all times to get to this NPC. The gaming experience.
I remember hunting in PVP zones being ambushed by the brave souls that would even venture there. Since there were no maps to walk players around or teleports you actually had to use your brain in 3 different realms to find your destination. I could simply evade a foe because of my superior knowledge of the land. That's kinda my point. I had to invest my time in this game to obtain this knowledge. People depended on me to get them somewhere alive. We depended on each other to be successful as a team
This is where the actual focus of per say hardcore gaming lost when they started having in game maps, teleportation portals etc hand feeding casual players either to lazy or lacking the time to learn the game. I have a job, a family and i have the free time to play however long i want to whenever i want to. It's really not my problem if somebody has a hour or two a day to play max. There are plenty of games for that clientele. I just want a NEW game that is more challenging, doesnt attract teens looking for instant gratification game. You know a game thats an actual experience for heavens sake.
It seems this is true. I know nothing of WoW as I've never played it, (couldn't get past the graphics) but all the features I loved in MMO's have totally disappeared. Open, persistant worlds, player run economies based on deep crafting, meaningful, or dare I say even fun PvP (as opposed to all the instanced arena stuff where it's just mindless, and serves no purpose except to be able to say your game has PvP)... Just to name a few..
Before anyone says WHAT ABOUT EVE... Yes I know about EVE. It has all of those features. The only problem with EVE (for me) is with a time based skill system it would take a minimum investment of 2-3 years just to be competitive. And even then, it would be impossible to ever catch up to the guys who've been there for 5 years. Starting off new in EVE at this point would be almost pointless (for me). Now if you want to be a miner, and play just to make $$, yeah sure. But I will always be 50 gazillion skill points behind everyone else, so I would just get my ass handed to me in every PvP fight. I like my games difficult, but I also like it fair.
Now I am currently sub'ed in LoTRO, and EQ2. They come as close to what I like as possible. Since I am not up on every game out there though, feel free to point me in the direction of one I may have missed.
Biggest misconception in the genre, this.
I often see it. It's always wrong.
The thing about EVE is that not every skill is relevant to every situation. If you're flying a frigate outfitted with small energy turrets then it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or haven't acquired in such unrelated skills as battleships, large hybrid cannons, etc.
You can be competitive in EVE within weeks if you specialise.
Another misconception sadly. Starting a new char in EvE takes months to get to compeditive. You will not encounter people that doesnt have 90% of their gunnery/armor/shield//navigaion skills done in low sec nowadays. And those who used to roam with battlecruisers and battleships are now flying heavy assault ships and command ships.
Sadly EvE has gone past its golden era for new players. Im a 100% trained heavy assault pilot living in 0.0 (on hold for the moment) and it was alot more fun when everyone was new and a encounter could end with very difrent results. Unless your skilled as hell or flying a command ship or like a really good fitted domi your gonna get ganked in gate camps, bubbles and roaming gang which is what EvE pvp is nowadays.
I love EvE with all my heart but it just aint the same anymore.
My issue was not with casual games or players. My issue was with the lack of developer gearing for an alternative audience per say. As a salesman who would want to sell the same thing the other game was doing. Why not capture a market. There are a gazillion casual MMO's. I went from hardcore to casual. I played WOW for a couple years even though i felt unchallenged at all by that game. It never had the feel of old school MMO's like DAOC, EQ1, Asherons etc, etc. The more i reflect the more i realize just how important the actual game experience was.. When i played WOW it was all about how fast i could use Hotbot to hand feed me quests so i could level to the max and have nothing to do at all. None of the old school games handed us anything. Heck i remember searching for hours for a dang roaming quest NPC lol having to avoid death at all times to get to this NPC. The gaming experience.
I remember hunting in PVP zones being ambushed by the brave souls that would even venture there. Since there were no maps to walk players around or teleports you actually had to use your brain in 3 different realms to find your destination. I could simply evade a foe because of my superior knowledge of the land. That's kinda my point. I had to invest my time in this game to obtain this knowledge. People depended on me to get them somewhere alive. We depended on each other to be successful as a team
This is where the actual focus of per say hardcore gaming lost when they started having in game maps, teleportation portals etc hand feeding casual players either to lazy or lacking the time to learn the game. I have a job, a family and i have the free time to play however long i want to whenever i want to. It's really not my problem if somebody has a hour or two a day to play max. There are plenty of games for that clientele. I just want a NEW game that is more challenging, doesnt attract teens looking for instant gratification game. You know a game thats an actual experience for heavens sake.
I understand.
Wanting a new game that caters to what your specific gameplay preference is, is something we all want even the casuals on this site.
I guess you will have to wait for a new indy game. I'm playing games right now that require major time investment but they still have things you consider Easy or casually targeted like mini-maps and the option to solo (slowly).
I don't know if we will ever return to the old EQ or AC days. Hardcore mmos have released recently and are coming down the pipe that still would be considered Ezmode for someone like you.
Well I hope you get the game you want. GL
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I don't need to add anything to what's highlighted up there, imo. The same words could have come from my own mouth, so...I'll just quote you instead. The underlining of your words...is my own. I just did that to further emphasize what you said.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
For the love of god, WoW is not about getting to the end game. WoW is about the end game. Level 1-79 is really nothing more than a super long tutorial that pretty much used to get player getting the intricate in and out of the game. Of course level is easy, when you have 95 percent of your populations are at the max possible level. It only make sense to speed up the process of the lower level player so they can for the most part enjoy the content that 95 percent of the population is currently enjoying.
Hopefully will Guildwars 2 have some pretty hard parts (ever played GW in hard mode?).
Other than that, CCPs "World of darkness online" will most likely have some good hard action.
I agree with you, I have no problem that there are some easy games out there but now all games are easy and that kinda sucks. Some people prefer easy game and that is fun but the current trend to make everything as easy as possible is getting annoying.
I partly blame the holy trial of tank,spank and healer. It encourages players to stand in the same place and pushing a few buttons, a more action oriented combat system would force players to think fast or die.
The system of static bosses that always are exactly the same doesn't really help either, some random skills would help.
Nowadays it seems like they just add more hitpoints and armor when they want to make something hard, and you can always find the easiest way to defeat a boss on wiki, there are no nasty surprises in MMOs anymore.
The trend of making all games easier will turn sooner or later as all trends it can make MMOs look like games only for children if things will continue the way it have the last 5 years.
all this talk of how great WOW is.. really makes me ill... talking about what wow has or hasnt done to the video game market is like compairing high end chief dishes to mcdonalds
past games, were built to last. they were designed from the start to give you the drive to reach the end. then you get the next version. case in point look at the OLD RPGS. kings quest. curse of money island ect. stories with drive and desire to reach the end.
wow really doesnt have that.
WOW can be comparied to fast food. people do not want to cook high end burgers and fries at home, instead they drive out to some joint and get them self a bigmac and fries.
that is WOW. instead of being limited to people who want to play it and finish it, it opened up games to every joe blow and timmy bucktooth.
while that is great and everything, it also crippled the market at the same time. where the old games had a desire to out do the next. games today try to repeat wow. instead of outdoing it they just want to repeat it
a burger is a burger... no matter how you cook it. wow is wow no matter what you call it. saddly games now.. just want to repeat wow CAUSE they know they can create that kind of hype and cash.. so they want to... BUT they loose sight of what they want and just make a new wow...
its like making a burger with slices of bread instead of a bun. with horseradish and green peppers instead of mustard/ketchup and tomatos..
only when game developers figure out how to make a new game that isnt wow ... we will just have repeats of wow T_T debate that all you want... it wont change the fact ... WoW sells
i hate WoW for that very reason. a decent game that basicly killed games at the same time
and now im hungry... X_X
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there?
There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways.
If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
And this is exactly what is WRONG with modern day MMO's. Most MMO veterans like myself won't waste the money on a new title that has any taste thats WOW like. We don't want more WOW games. All WoW like games have pretty much flopped since they release because of lack of interest. Please like many have said 1 gazillion times reference subscriptions to where they prevail. The U.S only has a very small percentage of the WOW subscriber base. This game rules in Asia thats for sure but so do alot of asian developed games. Right now the MMO market is stagnant as it's ever been. I hope to see that change soon.
Casual Game = Game with Little Content
No one in their right mind should be advocating for "casual" MMOs. Developers love it because it makes it to where they have to have very little content to complete. I don't care if you think you are "casual" or "hardcore", a game that take a long time to complete is good for both groups. It means you are getting more game for your money.
And for the person stating Vanguard was "hardcore", I imagine you haven't played it. SOE has turned it into one of the shortest games there is to finish it. If you want to play a game that takes a long time to complete today, it doesn't exist.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
Leveling in WoW is nothing anymore, why should it exist? I enjoyed the original version of WoW. The current version is crap.