At the moment it seems that no developer has the right recipe for a game that is challenging yet not too grindy / time consuming and caters to both "hardcore" and "casual" audiences and to both "theme park" and "sandbox" players and to PVP / PVE crowds equally.
Maybe in the future some devs get it right and we get a new Pandora's Box of online gaming.
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there? There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways. If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
EXACTLY.
The rest of this post I deleted, because all I did was go on and on about EQ2 and FE, and no one really cares. LOL Sometimes I just get overly manic talking about games. Sorry about that.
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there? There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways. If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
Most of the game is not boring grind. There are plenty of things to do and stuff to see. So people who enjoy roleplaying can take at much or as little time as they like to go through the content at their own pace. Hell, If I start a new character today, I can hit level 80 is as little as 2 weeks. Yet, sister who is been playing WoW for the past three months barely set foot in Northren. Different stroke for different folk. The low level content is there for the casual player to explore and enjoy. The instance group and raid dungeon is there for the move involved player who enjoy group and tackling some challenge. The Heroic Raid Dungeon are there for the elite player to enjoy gameplay that put their skills to the limit. The PvP is there for people who enjoy killing people. You got the pvp instance and arena for those you want instance gratification. You got wintergrasp for people who want open world pvp and enjoy large scale battle.
Different stroke for different folk, and blizzard is trying very hard to cater to each and very type of their customer. And doing a pretty good job at it might I add.
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
And this is exactly what is WRONG with modern day MMO's. Most MMO veterans like myself won't waste the money on a new title that has any taste thats WOW like. We don't want more WOW games. All WoW like games have pretty much flopped since they release because of lack of interest. Please like many have said 1 gazillion times reference subscriptions to where they prevail. The U.S only has a very small percentage of the WOW subscriber base. This game rules in Asia thats for sure but so do alot of asian developed games. Right now the MMO market is stagnant as it's ever been. I hope to see that change soon.
There are more than 2.5 million US subscribers and roughly another 2 million Europe, it can hardly be considered to be a small percentage of the total subscription number. So even if you only NA and Europe subscription, WoW still have more subscription than all the western mmo past and present combined. If you want to argue a point, try to at least make it a valid one and not some number pulled out of our ass. Furthermore, I'm sorry to inform you but veteran who garner absolute hatred for WoW like yourself only count for a very very small percentage. Most veteran are more like me, people who played, enjoyed, gotten over, and now looking for something different.
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there? There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways. If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
Private server also let people have retardly powerful items and skills. They let you spawn and kill any boss you want "SOLO" with character doing upward of 20k dps. Of course the game would get boring super fast when people are playing the game at near god mode and totally against what blizzard intended for them to play.
I don't agree with people here talking about hardcore gaming is only for youth w/out job and families.
See I started EQ1 when I was 43 that time and I don't know is that hardcore enough but for those 4.5 years I spent in EQ1 My average daily play-time was over 5h/day, per each day. But there were days when I was week away abroad on conferences etc. And there were my friends who took 6+ h/day - that seems hardcore (and they have fulltime jobs too and were near my age).
And those were good times. When in EQ was something epic, it was in the real meaning of word. How many was later players on max lvl but how many of them had patience to get their class'es epic weapon. How long it took even in server's top guild to get BoW.
Those bosses, gods of planes, were not bosses we know now-a-day - they spawn once per week or some even less meaning that You can't kill him more than 52 times per year, and not every time he drops that wonderful item for your class. That made those items really epic, really unic, really legendary - not accessible for masses and so what! Everybody could join even hard raids with equipment more available but only a bit less in power. But now situation is that everybody can access w/out any trouble (or sometimes in F2P with bigger wallet) every epic. So why we call them epic? If every 2nd person can buy Bugatti Veyron - it's not Bugatti anymore.
How we can accept such samples IRL but can't accept them in VR. I havn't seen more bigger devalvation of meaning word "Legendary" as in LOTRO after introducing Moria. Sorry, but how can be legendary item which I can get 10-20 pcs after half-hour run in some crafting instance. And so can everyone who only wanna to run? How you dare name legendary items I destroy after run by hundreds to get some runes to level up others. Even mithril flakes are more legendary than those but OK, that's so LOTRO specific.
Yea, after some time LOTRO came as sun in cloudy day and bringed some sunshine into MMO sky but now after 2.5 years they go same way as others - simplifing, making all lvling pure solo, killing tho soul of story and Middle-Earth. And Mirkwood placed dot on i - I left that thinggie. Now FE gives abit new blood into veins of MMOs, and again few months and max lvl, but let's give some time for indy studio - they can't make same things in same speed as multi-billion companys can. Sec4 is soon out and we see...
So we can't say NO ONE dev/studio makes games for nishe players or at least trys some - there are some, and emerging new ones, let's hope more for us in future. And see - more and more people growing up in WoW see sooner or later that this kind of kiddie-play don't cover their needs for MMO. And more them come, more devs will look at harder end of gaming.
The Golden Era of MMO's is over, welcome to the Era of WoW.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
And this is exactly what is WRONG with modern day MMO's. Most MMO veterans like myself won't waste the money on a new title that has any taste thats WOW like. We don't want more WOW games. All WoW like games have pretty much flopped since they release because of lack of interest. Please like many have said 1 gazillion times reference subscriptions to where they prevail. The U.S only has a very small percentage of the WOW subscriber base. This game rules in Asia thats for sure but so do alot of asian developed games. Right now the MMO market is stagnant as it's ever been. I hope to see that change soon.
There are more than 2.5 million US subscribers and roughly another 2 million Europe, it can hardly be considered to be a small percentage of the total subscription number. So even if you only NA and Europe subscription, WoW still have more subscription than all the western mmo past and present combined. If you want to argue a point, try to at least make it a valid one and not some number pulled out of our ass. Furthermore, I'm sorry to inform you but veteran who garner absolute hatred for WoW like yourself only count for a very very small percentage. Most veteran are more like me, people who played, enjoyed, gotten over, and now looking for something different.
I don't hate WoW, I just hate the effect it's had on development of MMO's since it's release.
It only looks bad but in fact WoW did a great deal of good for the industry. As much as many people here hate how, they need to understand that fact that WoW's phenomenal success was the reason why many other MMO developer out there decide to join in on a shot at that pie also. Furthermore, and while this is only my own assumption, but I would say that thank to WoW's success, it makes it easier for developer to pitch an MMO game to investor and get funding for it.
Back on topic:
Casual MMO is not the bane of this market. Halfass unfinished MMO is the thing that kill this genera. I don't remember how many time I've gotten excited for a new MMO (vanguard, tabula rasa, tcosb, AoC, darkfall) only to come to a harsh realization of how halfass and unfinished it was. Even with a few glimmer of brilliance here and there, the overall functionality of the game make me want to kick myself in the ass for ever leaving the polished World of Warcraft for this junk.
In this I agree (tho not fan of WoW) - it shows green light for MMO as genre and changed attitude towards them.
And there was no game that was pure hardcore success - even so called EQ1. Old-timers maybe remember when first purists starting to cry after Luclin and his portals that the game isn't same again, that SOE f...ed all pleasure of long travels etc. And when PoP comes out then many of those left en masse, and so was with every expansion after.
But there all times new and fresh blood (more casual one hehehe) that filled spots in player's rows and all could stay as it was if there wasn't such a thing as WoW. WoW grabs all so called casuals, and many hardcores left before, and made a phenomenon and gave a hit to others they never rose again to they golden age heights.
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there? There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways. If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
It shows "players" over here don't have a clue about how to play and the ways to play any mmorpg.
In WOW since a year you can turn experience OFF at any point (and on).
You can easely play 2 years in WOW to reach end game with one character and play 10 hours a day.
The advantage is that you'll be King - whatever your level - oh yes and certainly for PvP in the normal BG's, without even reaching end game. Make BIG money with the professions too (actually ripping off the speedy gonzales type of green 80's).
.... it is just all for the grabs and your choice of course. There are some that only put on experience when going to the normal BG's these days. All the rest is played with exp turned off.
And these kind people are asking for a sandbox. My, my they can't even handle the freedom in WOW.
I think playing 10 hours a day for 2 years and be King and never reach end game is not ...; casual.
There are quite some advantages to this: no rat race, your time schedule, you are the boss, you have the choice and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP. A dream come true with the new cross server LFG tool for both (leveling) dungeons and BG's.
I think it's the ultimate wet dream of any "serious" mmorpg player.
See .... it is all there in WOW. I can't help it if you don't see the obvious tools to enhance whatever play you want.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Yamoth: If Wow is just about the endgame, why not skip the long and boring tutorial to get there? There is really no need for levels or XP if that is true and the game isn't so advanced that you need more than a few hours tutorial anyways. If most of a game is a boring grind that everyone skips then something is wrong, and Wow hasn't always been like that.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
It shows "players" over here don't have a clue about how to play and the ways to play any mmorpg.
In WOW since a year you can turn experience OFF at any point (and on).
You can easely play 2 years in WOW to reach end game with one character and play 10 hours a day.
The advantage is that you'll be King - whatever your level - oh yes and certainly for PvP in the normal BG's, without even reaching end game. Make BIG money with the professions too (actually ripping off the speedy gonzales type of green 80's).
.... it is just all for the grabs and your choice of course. There are some that only put on experience when going to the normal BG's these days. All the rest is played with exp turned off.
And these kind people are asking for a sandbox. My, my they can't even handle the freedom in WOW.
I think playing 10 hours a day for 2 years and be King and never reach end game is not ...; casual.
There are quite some advantages to this: no rat race, your time schedule, you are the boss, you have the choice and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP. A dream come true with the new cross server LFG tool for both (leveling) dungeons and BG's.
I think it's the ultimate wet dream of any "serious" mmorpg player.
See .... it is all there in WOW. I can't help it if you don't see the obvious tools to enhance whatever play you want.
How do you figure "you'll be King" by turning off xp? I don't understand that. It's not like if you turn off xp you can still build up your talent points like you can build your advancement points in EQ2. In WoW, if you turn off your combat xp...you just don't level. So....how is not leveling or increasing your talents in any way going to make you "king?" Define "king" for me...I mean, in whatever way you meant it. Because I'm not trackin' with the logic here....unless you're meaning turning off your combat xp at level 19, 29, 39 or whatever for PVP just to be a twink. Is that what you meant? "King of PvP BGs?"
Again....I think we all get your opinion that WoW is the "serious" gamers' wet dream. It's just that we don't all AGREE with your opinion.
Dear Developers, Please stop making games lots of people like. Instead make them just for us. No, we won't pay 2-10 times more to offset the fact that you could sell to 2-10 times more people by appealing to a wider audience. Our demands are reasonable because we claim they are,
-The Hardcore Gamers
Wow. Way to completely distort the OP... or completely miss the point.
He's acknowledging that not everyone likes the more "hardcore" (I prefer "old-school", but whatever) games. This is true.
He's acknowledging that there is still a category of players out there who enjoy that "old-school" style of play. This is true.
He's stating that there are plenty of options out there for the more casual gamer. This is certainly true, and there seem to be more all the time.
Is he asking developers to stop making casual games? No.
All he's expressing is a desire to see some more "hardcore" MMOs provided as options for those who do enjoy the more "old-school" style MMOs.
I realize you were trying to be clever with your post there. Sadly, it only makes you look willfully ignorant. From reading some of your posts in other threads, I've also noticed that you seem to have this hard-on for taking pot-shots at so-called "hardcore gamers" at every opportunity (even when it's uncalled for, such as this thread's OP). You like casual games. That's clear from various other posts you've made. Great... You have your pick of them to play.
Why are you so put off by the idea of there being a few more options out there for fans of more old-school games? Does the idea that someone else might be enjoying a game you wouldn't bother you that much?
Regardless, if your response is really what you took from the OP, then you need to learn to comprehend what you read.
Seriously.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In WOW since a year you can turn experience OFF at any point (and on).
You can easely play 2 years in WOW to reach end game with one character and play 10 hours a day.
The advantage is that you'll be King - whatever your level - oh yes and certainly for PvP in the normal BG's, without even reaching end game. Make BIG money with the professions too (actually ripping off the speedy gonzales type of green 80's). .... it is just all for the grabs and your choice of course. There are some that only put on experience when going to the normal BG's these days. All the rest is played with exp turned off. And these kind people are asking for a sandbox. My, my they can't even handle the freedom in WOW. I think playing 10 hours a day for 2 years and be King and never reach end game is not ...; casual. There are quite some advantages to this: no rat race, your time schedule, you are the boss, you have the choice and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP. A dream come true with the new cross server LFG tool for both (leveling) dungeons and BG's. I think it's the ultimate wet dream of any "serious" mmorpg player. See .... it is all there in WOW. I can't help it if you don't see the obvious tools to enhance whatever play you want.
How do you figure "you'll be King" by turning off xp? I don't understand that. It's not like if you turn off xp you can still build up your talent points like you can build your advancement points in EQ2. In WoW, if you turn off your combat xp...you just don't level. So....how is not leveling or increasing your talents in any way going to make you "king?" Define "king" for me...I mean, in whatever way you meant it. Because I'm not trackin' with the logic here....unless you're meaning turning off your combat xp at level 19, 29, 39 or whatever for PVP just to be a twink. Is that what you meant? "King of PvP BGs?"
Again....I think we all get your opinion that WoW is the "serious" gamers' wet dream. It's just that we don't all AGREE with your opinion.
I'll explain:
By putting off experience, you gain access to gear according to your future level. That could be done in several ways:
By crafting your own gear above your own level (my gear is already made before I reach that level !), by redoing the dungeons where that gear drops you really want to have - in say one or two levels. (btw TY new LFG tool for this).
I can do gathering of mats (looking at the market) and sell them to all "normal players" who reach level 80 without ANY professions done these days .
That way you can stay on top of everyone around your bracket. It is the reverse way of doing things and is simply marvellous. As WOW is divided within those 0-9 brackets.
You are "King" because in your PvP bracket there simply are no longer twinks anymore (only the few that play like you) and from my experience you "own" everyone up to 5 levels above you, running the AH, dungeons, crafting and even BG's (although there you do get experience indeed).
The biggest plus is what I wrote above: no rat race, your time schedule, you have the choice, Roleplay and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP, you choose.
So you advance, feel King, you have no time strain and have fun. I don't see the problem why you would want reaching the end game in 2 months time. Because there is where you enter the rat race. Not even needed.
"FUN" ends for some where the rat race begins. So game in the reverse way and be King wherever you play. And believe me, very few can beat me at same or 4 levels higher (tx to the gear sets I assemble).
Isn't that great?
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I'd play a game like this as long as there wasn't downtimes of 1 to 10 minutes per fight.
The only thing downtime is for is to make the player stare at their lifebar until it fills up. How exciting.
What should happen instead is no downtime at all or quick 10s to 30s downtime that happens in WoW. This way, it doesn't matter how hard the game is because everyone is ensured to get to max level anyway. If you have long periods of downtime, people give up on the game and log out to go play something that's actually fun all the time. Not just fun every 30 seconds you fight then 10 minutes of resting.
I've never played a so-called "hardcore" MMO that required me to stare at my lifebar for "1 to 10 minutes per fight". I'm sure there was some intended hyperbole in your post to make a point... but it's still exaggeration.
In FFXI, Lineage 2 and various other so-called "hardcore" MMOs, if you were spending that much downtime, then you were doing something wrong. Either you were ill-prepared, needed to pick your targets better, or needed to learn to use your skills/resources more efficiently. I can speak from experience on that.
I think your last paragraph sums up your argument perfectly... Basically, "it should be like WoW". In other words, "Make it more like WoW so I don't have to learn to adapt to a different playstyle". Sorry... but... no.
People get to end-game/level cap in the more hardcore/old-school games all the time. And, no, they're not "no lifers who can play 12 hours a day living in their parents basement". They're people with families, jobs and responsibilities.. They simply don't try to shoe-horn the playstyle they're used to from WoW or whatever other MMO into one where it doesn't belong, then whine about it "being too slow".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In WOW since a year you can turn experience OFF at any point (and on).
You can easely play 2 years in WOW to reach end game with one character and play 10 hours a day.
The advantage is that you'll be King - whatever your level - oh yes and certainly for PvP in the normal BG's, without even reaching end game. Make BIG money with the professions too (actually ripping off the speedy gonzales type of green 80's). .... it is just all for the grabs and your choice of course. There are some that only put on experience when going to the normal BG's these days. All the rest is played with exp turned off. And these kind people are asking for a sandbox. My, my they can't even handle the freedom in WOW. I think playing 10 hours a day for 2 years and be King and never reach end game is not ...; casual. There are quite some advantages to this: no rat race, your time schedule, you are the boss, you have the choice and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP. A dream come true with the new cross server LFG tool for both (leveling) dungeons and BG's. I think it's the ultimate wet dream of any "serious" mmorpg player. See .... it is all there in WOW. I can't help it if you don't see the obvious tools to enhance whatever play you want.
How do you figure "you'll be King" by turning off xp? I don't understand that. It's not like if you turn off xp you can still build up your talent points like you can build your advancement points in EQ2. In WoW, if you turn off your combat xp...you just don't level. So....how is not leveling or increasing your talents in any way going to make you "king?" Define "king" for me...I mean, in whatever way you meant it. Because I'm not trackin' with the logic here....unless you're meaning turning off your combat xp at level 19, 29, 39 or whatever for PVP just to be a twink. Is that what you meant? "King of PvP BGs?"
Again....I think we all get your opinion that WoW is the "serious" gamers' wet dream. It's just that we don't all AGREE with your opinion.
I'll explain:
By putting off experience, you gain access to gear according to your future level. That could be done in several ways:
By crafting your own gear above your own level (my gear is already made before I reach that level !), by redoing the dungeons where that gear drops you really want to have - in say one or two levels.
A new player without alts....couldn't do this, however. I did exactly what you're talking about (I didn't have to turn off xp to do it) with my toons, because each alt I made had a high level before it that was able to farm the higher level mats, etc. But without an alt (or more than one)...I don't see how you could do what you're describing. So this doesn't really help new players....not that you were claiming it did. But I always tried to have a bunch of great gear for my alts waiting "in the wings" for when they leveled. I think most everyone with multiple characters has been doing that for years.
I can do gathering of mats (looking at the market) and sell them to all "normal players" who reach level 80 without ANY professions done these days .
That's not really a "these days" thing. That's always been.
Again....selling mats to people who choose to wait until higher levels to start professions has ALWAYS been a way to make gold in game. I can't say it ever made me feel like a king (or queen) though, because everyone else did the same thing. I made a virtual fortune with my herbalist once they added inscriptions, for example, because so many high levels picked up the profession but didn't want to go back and farm the low level herbs.
That way you can stay on top of everyone around your bracket. It is the reverse way of doing things and is simply marvellous. As WOW is divided within those 0-9 brackets.
You are "King" because in your PvP bracket there simply are no longer twinks anymore (only the few that play like you) and from my experience you "own" everyone up to 5 levels above you, running the AH, dungeons, crafting and even BG's (although there you do get experience indeed).
The biggest plus is what I wrote above: no rat race, your time schedule, you have the choice, Roleplay and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP, you choose.
So you advance, feel King, you have no time strain and have fun. I don't see the problem why you would want reaching the end game in 2 months time. Because there is where you enter the rat race. Not even needed.
Well I COMPLETELY agree with you on THAT. I have never understood the maniacal rush to end game, so no arguments from me there. You're right, you don't HAVE to rush to end game in WoW or any other game. It's a shame to me that so many CHOOSE to, because they miss a lot of content doing that.
"FUN" ends for some where the rat race begins. So game in the reverse way and be King wherever you play. And believe me, very few can beat me at same or 4 levels higher (tx to the gear sets I assemble).
Isn't that great?
I really am sincerely glad that you're enjoying WoW so much. It IS great when you find a game that you just love! And I hope that even though we don't agree on the game being great for BOTH of us....I want you to know that I truly DO think it's great that you're loving it so! It's a very polished piece of work, and worthy of kudos on many levels.
Dear Developers, Please stop making games lots of people like. Instead make them just for us. No, we won't pay 2-10 times more to offset the fact that you could sell to 2-10 times more people by appealing to a wider audience. Our demands are reasonable because we claim they are,
-The Hardcore Gamers
Man...every post from you shows just how selfish and close-minded you are. So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
With a sensationalist thread title like "No more casual MMOs", and my sarcastic reply championing the greater good (games everyone likes), is it really me you want to accuse of being selfish?
If you thought I was serious, I could see why you might think I was being selfish and close-minded (because I was parodying the overly selfish and close-minded viewpoint that a lot of hardcore gamers have.)
With 1890 posts as of my posting this, axehilt, I'd think you would realize by now that the subject people use for their thread doesn't always sum up the point of their post. This is why it's important to actually read the post itself and find out what the person is actually saying... which you, per an earlier reply I made, completely failed to do and chose instead to completely misconstrue the OP completely.
You're not being "selfish" by addressing only the thread title, but you are being disingenuous considering the post spells out exactly what the OP thinks.
If you'd spend less time trying to be clever and more time actually reading what people say, perhaps you'd get that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The OP statement of "No more hardcore games being made" would be true, if you only look at the big budget game houses.
Otherwise, its a problem of perspective by the OP, and ignoring the numerous games out there that do not follow the casual trend.
Whenever a game comes out that fits into the niches many people on here claim they want, its usually ignored. What theyre actually looking for is the game that exsists inside their heads, so theyll never be satisfied no matter what game comes their way.
Watch how quickly Xyson gets rejected when it comes out as proof.
How do you figure "you'll be King" by turning off xp? I don't understand that. It's not like if you turn off xp you can still build up your talent points like you can build your advancement points in EQ2. In WoW, if you turn off your combat xp...you just don't level. So....how is not leveling or increasing your talents in any way going to make you "king?" Define "king" for me...I mean, in whatever way you meant it. Because I'm not trackin' with the logic here....unless you're meaning turning off your combat xp at level 19, 29, 39 or whatever for PVP just to be a twink. Is that what you meant? "King of PvP BGs?"
Again....I think we all get your opinion that WoW is the "serious" gamers' wet dream. It's just that we don't all AGREE with your opinion.
I'll explain:
By putting off experience, you gain access to gear according to your future level. That could be done in several ways:
By crafting your own gear above your own level (my gear is already made before I reach that level !), by redoing the dungeons where that gear drops you really want to have - in say one or two levels.
A new player without alts....couldn't do this, however. I did exactly what you're talking about (I didn't have to turn off xp to do it) with my toons, because each alt I made had a high level before it that was able to farm the higher level mats, etc. But without an alt (or more than one)...I don't see how you could do what you're describing. So this doesn't really help new players....not that you were claiming it did. But I always tried to have a bunch of great gear for my alts waiting "in the wings" for when they leveled. I think most everyone with multiple characters has been doing that for years.
I can do gathering of mats (looking at the market) and sell them to all "normal players" who reach level 80 without ANY professions done these days .
That's not really a "these days" thing. That's always been.
Again....selling mats to people who choose to wait until higher levels to start professions has ALWAYS been a way to make gold in game. I can't say it ever made me feel like a king (or queen) though, because everyone else did the same thing. I made a virtual fortune with my herbalist once they added inscriptions, for example, because so many high levels picked up the profession but didn't want to go back and farm the low level herbs.
That way you can stay on top of everyone around your bracket. It is the reverse way of doing things and is simply marvellous. As WOW is divided within those 0-9 brackets.
You are "King" because in your PvP bracket there simply are no longer twinks anymore (only the few that play like you) and from my experience you "own" everyone up to 5 levels above you, running the AH, dungeons, crafting and even BG's (although there you do get experience indeed).
The biggest plus is what I wrote above: no rat race, your time schedule, you have the choice, Roleplay and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP, you choose.
So you advance, feel King, you have no time strain and have fun. I don't see the problem why you would want reaching the end game in 2 months time. Because there is where you enter the rat race. Not even needed.
Well I COMPLETELY agree with you on THAT. I have never understood the maniacal rush to end game, so no arguments from me there. You're right, you don't HAVE to rush to end game in WoW or any other game. It's a shame to me that so many CHOOSE to, because they miss a lot of content doing that.
"FUN" ends for some where the rat race begins. So game in the reverse way and be King wherever you play. And believe me, very few can beat me at same or 4 levels higher (tx to the gear sets I assemble).
Isn't that great?
I really am sincerely glad that you're enjoying WoW so much. It IS great when you find a game that you just love! And I hope that even though we don't agree on the game being great for BOTH of us....I want you to know that I truly DO think it's great that you're loving it so! It's a very polished piece of work, and worthy of kudos on many levels.
This practice comes from a new character (2 now in fact) on a complete new server. No support really. So it is possible. You earn so much money in some professions these days that the cost of 10 Gold to put on/off experience can be negelected even in the 10_20 bracket.
The difference with this mechanism compared to the old days is 2 things: the possibility of putting off experience and the LFG tool while leveling (I know you didn't like it in the end game - but as a tool for leveling dungeons the LFG tool is great).
So to me, the possibility to even play it that way makes this whole above thread rather funny. It allows me to play in a far more free style.
Of course WOW is not the first one to turn off experience (DaoC/EQ), but like a lot of things in this game, it all boils down well with other available mechanics (like the BG's brackets).
It also shows that WOW 2004 really has to be adapted in the leveling department (hence CATA), because the speed of your leveling is no longer synchronised with the professions, talent settings etc...
Professions are not worthless in WOW, the only problem is that players advance too quickly to see the benefits (or don't do professions at all just to reach end game asap).
I think Blizzard knows this and will tune the general CATA progression again with the professions and overal advancement of the talents etc...
Also I am waiting the new auto LFG tool now for the BG's (should be coming this week), so just like the leveling dungeons, the BG's will pop up very rapidly wherever you are.
I also think this mechanism should be introduced in the upcoming new MMO. People do need to have the option to adventure/craft/fight without even the need to level. But this tool just makes it possible now already.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Comments
At the moment it seems that no developer has the right recipe for a game that is challenging yet not too grindy / time consuming and caters to both "hardcore" and "casual" audiences and to both "theme park" and "sandbox" players and to PVP / PVE crowds equally.
Maybe in the future some devs get it right and we get a new Pandora's Box of online gaming.
EXACTLY.
The rest of this post I deleted, because all I did was go on and on about EQ2 and FE, and no one really cares. LOL Sometimes I just get overly manic talking about games. Sorry about that.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Most of the game is not boring grind. There are plenty of things to do and stuff to see. So people who enjoy roleplaying can take at much or as little time as they like to go through the content at their own pace. Hell, If I start a new character today, I can hit level 80 is as little as 2 weeks. Yet, sister who is been playing WoW for the past three months barely set foot in Northren. Different stroke for different folk. The low level content is there for the casual player to explore and enjoy. The instance group and raid dungeon is there for the move involved player who enjoy group and tackling some challenge. The Heroic Raid Dungeon are there for the elite player to enjoy gameplay that put their skills to the limit. The PvP is there for people who enjoy killing people. You got the pvp instance and arena for those you want instance gratification. You got wintergrasp for people who want open world pvp and enjoy large scale battle.
Different stroke for different folk, and blizzard is trying very hard to cater to each and very type of their customer. And doing a pretty good job at it might I add.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
And this is exactly what is WRONG with modern day MMO's. Most MMO veterans like myself won't waste the money on a new title that has any taste thats WOW like. We don't want more WOW games. All WoW like games have pretty much flopped since they release because of lack of interest. Please like many have said 1 gazillion times reference subscriptions to where they prevail. The U.S only has a very small percentage of the WOW subscriber base. This game rules in Asia thats for sure but so do alot of asian developed games. Right now the MMO market is stagnant as it's ever been. I hope to see that change soon.
There are more than 2.5 million US subscribers and roughly another 2 million Europe, it can hardly be considered to be a small percentage of the total subscription number. So even if you only NA and Europe subscription, WoW still have more subscription than all the western mmo past and present combined. If you want to argue a point, try to at least make it a valid one and not some number pulled out of our ass. Furthermore, I'm sorry to inform you but veteran who garner absolute hatred for WoW like yourself only count for a very very small percentage. Most veteran are more like me, people who played, enjoyed, gotten over, and now looking for something different.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
Private server also let people have retardly powerful items and skills. They let you spawn and kill any boss you want "SOLO" with character doing upward of 20k dps. Of course the game would get boring super fast when people are playing the game at near god mode and totally against what blizzard intended for them to play.
For some reason, this article made me think of this thread.
I don't agree with people here talking about hardcore gaming is only for youth w/out job and families.
See I started EQ1 when I was 43 that time and I don't know is that hardcore enough but for those 4.5 years I spent in EQ1 My average daily play-time was over 5h/day, per each day. But there were days when I was week away abroad on conferences etc. And there were my friends who took 6+ h/day - that seems hardcore (and they have fulltime jobs too and were near my age).
And those were good times. When in EQ was something epic, it was in the real meaning of word. How many was later players on max lvl but how many of them had patience to get their class'es epic weapon. How long it took even in server's top guild to get BoW.
Those bosses, gods of planes, were not bosses we know now-a-day - they spawn once per week or some even less meaning that You can't kill him more than 52 times per year, and not every time he drops that wonderful item for your class. That made those items really epic, really unic, really legendary - not accessible for masses and so what! Everybody could join even hard raids with equipment more available but only a bit less in power. But now situation is that everybody can access w/out any trouble (or sometimes in F2P with bigger wallet) every epic. So why we call them epic? If every 2nd person can buy Bugatti Veyron - it's not Bugatti anymore.
How we can accept such samples IRL but can't accept them in VR. I havn't seen more bigger devalvation of meaning word "Legendary" as in LOTRO after introducing Moria. Sorry, but how can be legendary item which I can get 10-20 pcs after half-hour run in some crafting instance. And so can everyone who only wanna to run? How you dare name legendary items I destroy after run by hundreds to get some runes to level up others. Even mithril flakes are more legendary than those but OK, that's so LOTRO specific.
Yea, after some time LOTRO came as sun in cloudy day and bringed some sunshine into MMO sky but now after 2.5 years they go same way as others - simplifing, making all lvling pure solo, killing tho soul of story and Middle-Earth. And Mirkwood placed dot on i - I left that thinggie. Now FE gives abit new blood into veins of MMOs, and again few months and max lvl, but let's give some time for indy studio - they can't make same things in same speed as multi-billion companys can. Sec4 is soon out and we see...
So we can't say NO ONE dev/studio makes games for nishe players or at least trys some - there are some, and emerging new ones, let's hope more for us in future. And see - more and more people growing up in WoW see sooner or later that this kind of kiddie-play don't cover their needs for MMO. And more them come, more devs will look at harder end of gaming.
Hmm .. WOW *is* the golden era of MMOs. MUCH better game than EQ.
The market success and high subscription numbers of WoW proves it's the king of MMO's right now. However while the game has been a major success, it has also been force behind the change in this genre. Thus the Era of WoW.
WoW has changed forever the direction of MMO's. If a developer is willing to spend millions of dollars to develop a new MMO, they are going to want to make as much of a profit as is possible. So developers are less likely to take a risk, and tend to produce games that borrow heavily if not outright copy WoW.
The early MMO's (UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, ect...) didn't have this dynamic. Each one was unique and encouraged development of a strong community by forcing players to work together. While this might not be vogue anymore, it did provide a special and compelling gaming experience back in the day. WoW doesn't do this, one can solo all the way to the max level and never have any contact with anyone else. This is fine, but it has changed the nature of MMO's.
I fear that it's only going to get worse. F2P games with item shops and games being developed for social networking sites the genre might be heading to another era.
I'm glad I got to experience those early days. It provided me with some of my greatest gaming moments, and in game friends.
And this is exactly what is WRONG with modern day MMO's. Most MMO veterans like myself won't waste the money on a new title that has any taste thats WOW like. We don't want more WOW games. All WoW like games have pretty much flopped since they release because of lack of interest. Please like many have said 1 gazillion times reference subscriptions to where they prevail. The U.S only has a very small percentage of the WOW subscriber base. This game rules in Asia thats for sure but so do alot of asian developed games. Right now the MMO market is stagnant as it's ever been. I hope to see that change soon.
There are more than 2.5 million US subscribers and roughly another 2 million Europe, it can hardly be considered to be a small percentage of the total subscription number. So even if you only NA and Europe subscription, WoW still have more subscription than all the western mmo past and present combined. If you want to argue a point, try to at least make it a valid one and not some number pulled out of our ass. Furthermore, I'm sorry to inform you but veteran who garner absolute hatred for WoW like yourself only count for a very very small percentage. Most veteran are more like me, people who played, enjoyed, gotten over, and now looking for something different.
I don't hate WoW, I just hate the effect it's had on development of MMO's since it's release.
It only looks bad but in fact WoW did a great deal of good for the industry. As much as many people here hate how, they need to understand that fact that WoW's phenomenal success was the reason why many other MMO developer out there decide to join in on a shot at that pie also. Furthermore, and while this is only my own assumption, but I would say that thank to WoW's success, it makes it easier for developer to pitch an MMO game to investor and get funding for it.
Back on topic:
Casual MMO is not the bane of this market. Halfass unfinished MMO is the thing that kill this genera. I don't remember how many time I've gotten excited for a new MMO (vanguard, tabula rasa, tcosb, AoC, darkfall) only to come to a harsh realization of how halfass and unfinished it was. Even with a few glimmer of brilliance here and there, the overall functionality of the game make me want to kick myself in the ass for ever leaving the polished World of Warcraft for this junk.
In this I agree (tho not fan of WoW) - it shows green light for MMO as genre and changed attitude towards them.
And there was no game that was pure hardcore success - even so called EQ1. Old-timers maybe remember when first purists starting to cry after Luclin and his portals that the game isn't same again, that SOE f...ed all pleasure of long travels etc. And when PoP comes out then many of those left en masse, and so was with every expansion after.
But there all times new and fresh blood (more casual one hehehe) that filled spots in player's rows and all could stay as it was if there wasn't such a thing as WoW. WoW grabs all so called casuals, and many hardcores left before, and made a phenomenon and gave a hit to others they never rose again to they golden age heights.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
It shows "players" over here don't have a clue about how to play and the ways to play any mmorpg.
In WOW since a year you can turn experience OFF at any point (and on).
You can easely play 2 years in WOW to reach end game with one character and play 10 hours a day.
The advantage is that you'll be King - whatever your level - oh yes and certainly for PvP in the normal BG's, without even reaching end game. Make BIG money with the professions too (actually ripping off the speedy gonzales type of green 80's).
.... it is just all for the grabs and your choice of course. There are some that only put on experience when going to the normal BG's these days. All the rest is played with exp turned off.
And these kind people are asking for a sandbox. My, my they can't even handle the freedom in WOW.
I think playing 10 hours a day for 2 years and be King and never reach end game is not ...; casual.
There are quite some advantages to this: no rat race, your time schedule, you are the boss, you have the choice and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP. A dream come true with the new cross server LFG tool for both (leveling) dungeons and BG's.
I think it's the ultimate wet dream of any "serious" mmorpg player.
See .... it is all there in WOW. I can't help it if you don't see the obvious tools to enhance whatever play you want.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
thats what private/illegal servers do.. they make you max level and you have the ability to spawn/slay any-every boss in the game.. lets just say... take the leveling out of WoW and you have a few GB of garbage on your desktop.... from what i hear its duller then a rock if you dont actually level in wow O-o
It shows "players" over here don't have a clue about how to play and the ways to play any mmorpg.
In WOW since a year you can turn experience OFF at any point (and on).
You can easely play 2 years in WOW to reach end game with one character and play 10 hours a day.
The advantage is that you'll be King - whatever your level - oh yes and certainly for PvP in the normal BG's, without even reaching end game. Make BIG money with the professions too (actually ripping off the speedy gonzales type of green 80's).
.... it is just all for the grabs and your choice of course. There are some that only put on experience when going to the normal BG's these days. All the rest is played with exp turned off.
And these kind people are asking for a sandbox. My, my they can't even handle the freedom in WOW.
I think playing 10 hours a day for 2 years and be King and never reach end game is not ...; casual.
There are quite some advantages to this: no rat race, your time schedule, you are the boss, you have the choice and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP. A dream come true with the new cross server LFG tool for both (leveling) dungeons and BG's.
I think it's the ultimate wet dream of any "serious" mmorpg player.
See .... it is all there in WOW. I can't help it if you don't see the obvious tools to enhance whatever play you want.
How do you figure "you'll be King" by turning off xp? I don't understand that. It's not like if you turn off xp you can still build up your talent points like you can build your advancement points in EQ2. In WoW, if you turn off your combat xp...you just don't level. So....how is not leveling or increasing your talents in any way going to make you "king?" Define "king" for me...I mean, in whatever way you meant it. Because I'm not trackin' with the logic here....unless you're meaning turning off your combat xp at level 19, 29, 39 or whatever for PVP just to be a twink. Is that what you meant? "King of PvP BGs?"
Again....I think we all get your opinion that WoW is the "serious" gamers' wet dream. It's just that we don't all AGREE with your opinion.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Wow. Way to completely distort the OP... or completely miss the point.
He's acknowledging that not everyone likes the more "hardcore" (I prefer "old-school", but whatever) games. This is true.
He's acknowledging that there is still a category of players out there who enjoy that "old-school" style of play. This is true.
He's stating that there are plenty of options out there for the more casual gamer. This is certainly true, and there seem to be more all the time.
Is he asking developers to stop making casual games? No.
All he's expressing is a desire to see some more "hardcore" MMOs provided as options for those who do enjoy the more "old-school" style MMOs.
I realize you were trying to be clever with your post there. Sadly, it only makes you look willfully ignorant. From reading some of your posts in other threads, I've also noticed that you seem to have this hard-on for taking pot-shots at so-called "hardcore gamers" at every opportunity (even when it's uncalled for, such as this thread's OP). You like casual games. That's clear from various other posts you've made. Great... You have your pick of them to play.
Why are you so put off by the idea of there being a few more options out there for fans of more old-school games? Does the idea that someone else might be enjoying a game you wouldn't bother you that much?
Regardless, if your response is really what you took from the OP, then you need to learn to comprehend what you read.
Seriously.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
How do you figure "you'll be King" by turning off xp? I don't understand that. It's not like if you turn off xp you can still build up your talent points like you can build your advancement points in EQ2. In WoW, if you turn off your combat xp...you just don't level. So....how is not leveling or increasing your talents in any way going to make you "king?" Define "king" for me...I mean, in whatever way you meant it. Because I'm not trackin' with the logic here....unless you're meaning turning off your combat xp at level 19, 29, 39 or whatever for PVP just to be a twink. Is that what you meant? "King of PvP BGs?"
Again....I think we all get your opinion that WoW is the "serious" gamers' wet dream. It's just that we don't all AGREE with your opinion.
I'll explain:
By putting off experience, you gain access to gear according to your future level. That could be done in several ways:
By crafting your own gear above your own level (my gear is already made before I reach that level !), by redoing the dungeons where that gear drops you really want to have - in say one or two levels. (btw TY new LFG tool for this).
I can do gathering of mats (looking at the market) and sell them to all "normal players" who reach level 80 without ANY professions done these days
.
That way you can stay on top of everyone around your bracket. It is the reverse way of doing things and is simply marvellous. As WOW is divided within those 0-9 brackets.
You are "King" because in your PvP bracket there simply are no longer twinks anymore (only the few that play like you) and from my experience you "own" everyone up to 5 levels above you, running the AH, dungeons, crafting and even BG's (although there you do get experience indeed).
The biggest plus is what I wrote above: no rat race, your time schedule, you have the choice, Roleplay and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP, you choose.
So you advance, feel King, you have no time strain and have fun. I don't see the problem why you would want reaching the end game in 2 months time. Because there is where you enter the rat race. Not even needed.
"FUN" ends for some where the rat race begins. So game in the reverse way and be King wherever you play. And believe me, very few can beat me at same or 4 levels higher (tx to the gear sets I assemble).
Isn't that great?
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I've never played a so-called "hardcore" MMO that required me to stare at my lifebar for "1 to 10 minutes per fight". I'm sure there was some intended hyperbole in your post to make a point... but it's still exaggeration.
In FFXI, Lineage 2 and various other so-called "hardcore" MMOs, if you were spending that much downtime, then you were doing something wrong. Either you were ill-prepared, needed to pick your targets better, or needed to learn to use your skills/resources more efficiently. I can speak from experience on that.
I think your last paragraph sums up your argument perfectly... Basically, "it should be like WoW". In other words, "Make it more like WoW so I don't have to learn to adapt to a different playstyle". Sorry... but... no.
People get to end-game/level cap in the more hardcore/old-school games all the time. And, no, they're not "no lifers who can play 12 hours a day living in their parents basement". They're people with families, jobs and responsibilities.. They simply don't try to shoe-horn the playstyle they're used to from WoW or whatever other MMO into one where it doesn't belong, then whine about it "being too slow".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
How do you figure "you'll be King" by turning off xp? I don't understand that. It's not like if you turn off xp you can still build up your talent points like you can build your advancement points in EQ2. In WoW, if you turn off your combat xp...you just don't level. So....how is not leveling or increasing your talents in any way going to make you "king?" Define "king" for me...I mean, in whatever way you meant it. Because I'm not trackin' with the logic here....unless you're meaning turning off your combat xp at level 19, 29, 39 or whatever for PVP just to be a twink. Is that what you meant? "King of PvP BGs?"
Again....I think we all get your opinion that WoW is the "serious" gamers' wet dream. It's just that we don't all AGREE with your opinion.
I'll explain:
By putting off experience, you gain access to gear according to your future level. That could be done in several ways:
By crafting your own gear above your own level (my gear is already made before I reach that level !), by redoing the dungeons where that gear drops you really want to have - in say one or two levels.
A new player without alts....couldn't do this, however. I did exactly what you're talking about (I didn't have to turn off xp to do it) with my toons, because each alt I made had a high level before it that was able to farm the higher level mats, etc. But without an alt (or more than one)...I don't see how you could do what you're describing. So this doesn't really help new players....not that you were claiming it did. But I always tried to have a bunch of great gear for my alts waiting "in the wings" for when they leveled. I think most everyone with multiple characters has been doing that for years.
I can do gathering of mats (looking at the market) and sell them to all "normal players" who reach level 80 without ANY professions done these days
.
That's not really a "these days" thing. That's always been.
Again....selling mats to people who choose to wait until higher levels to start professions has ALWAYS been a way to make gold in game. I can't say it ever made me feel like a king (or queen) though, because everyone else did the same thing. I made a virtual fortune with my herbalist once they added inscriptions, for example, because so many high levels picked up the profession but didn't want to go back and farm the low level herbs.
That way you can stay on top of everyone around your bracket. It is the reverse way of doing things and is simply marvellous. As WOW is divided within those 0-9 brackets.
You are "King" because in your PvP bracket there simply are no longer twinks anymore (only the few that play like you) and from my experience you "own" everyone up to 5 levels above you, running the AH, dungeons, crafting and even BG's (although there you do get experience indeed).
The biggest plus is what I wrote above: no rat race, your time schedule, you have the choice, Roleplay and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP, you choose.
So you advance, feel King, you have no time strain and have fun. I don't see the problem why you would want reaching the end game in 2 months time. Because there is where you enter the rat race. Not even needed.
Well I COMPLETELY agree with you on THAT. I have never understood the maniacal rush to end game, so no arguments from me there. You're right, you don't HAVE to rush to end game in WoW or any other game. It's a shame to me that so many CHOOSE to, because they miss a lot of content doing that.
"FUN" ends for some where the rat race begins. So game in the reverse way and be King wherever you play. And believe me, very few can beat me at same or 4 levels higher (tx to the gear sets I assemble).
Isn't that great?
I really am sincerely glad that you're enjoying WoW so much.
It IS great when you find a game that you just love! And I hope that even though we don't agree on the game being great for BOTH of us....I want you to know that I truly DO think it's great that you're loving it so! It's a very polished piece of work, and worthy of kudos on many levels.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Man...every post from you shows just how selfish and close-minded you are. So what if someone wants just ONE game to cater to those that actually prefer old EQ/UO style MMO's. Is it really too much to ask for? As has already been said, there are a TON on MMO's to cater to casuals already.
I will bet that such a hardcore game could make profit, it's just that it won't make the "greed" profit most companies are looking to make now, so it's overlooked....sadly.
With a sensationalist thread title like "No more casual MMOs", and my sarcastic reply championing the greater good (games everyone likes), is it really me you want to accuse of being selfish?
If you thought I was serious, I could see why you might think I was being selfish and close-minded (because I was parodying the overly selfish and close-minded viewpoint that a lot of hardcore gamers have.)
With 1890 posts as of my posting this, axehilt, I'd think you would realize by now that the subject people use for their thread doesn't always sum up the point of their post. This is why it's important to actually read the post itself and find out what the person is actually saying... which you, per an earlier reply I made, completely failed to do and chose instead to completely misconstrue the OP completely.
You're not being "selfish" by addressing only the thread title, but you are being disingenuous considering the post spells out exactly what the OP thinks.
If you'd spend less time trying to be clever and more time actually reading what people say, perhaps you'd get that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Whenever a game comes out that fits into the niches many people on here claim they want, its usually ignored. What theyre actually looking for is the game that exsists inside their heads, so theyll never be satisfied no matter what game comes their way.
Watch how quickly Xyson gets rejected when it comes out as proof.
I'll explain:
By putting off experience, you gain access to gear according to your future level. That could be done in several ways:
By crafting your own gear above your own level (my gear is already made before I reach that level !), by redoing the dungeons where that gear drops you really want to have - in say one or two levels.
A new player without alts....couldn't do this, however. I did exactly what you're talking about (I didn't have to turn off xp to do it) with my toons, because each alt I made had a high level before it that was able to farm the higher level mats, etc. But without an alt (or more than one)...I don't see how you could do what you're describing. So this doesn't really help new players....not that you were claiming it did. But I always tried to have a bunch of great gear for my alts waiting "in the wings" for when they leveled. I think most everyone with multiple characters has been doing that for years.
I can do gathering of mats (looking at the market) and sell them to all "normal players" who reach level 80 without ANY professions done these days
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That's not really a "these days" thing. That's always been.
Again....selling mats to people who choose to wait until higher levels to start professions has ALWAYS been a way to make gold in game. I can't say it ever made me feel like a king (or queen) though, because everyone else did the same thing. I made a virtual fortune with my herbalist once they added inscriptions, for example, because so many high levels picked up the profession but didn't want to go back and farm the low level herbs.
That way you can stay on top of everyone around your bracket. It is the reverse way of doing things and is simply marvellous. As WOW is divided within those 0-9 brackets.
You are "King" because in your PvP bracket there simply are no longer twinks anymore (only the few that play like you) and from my experience you "own" everyone up to 5 levels above you, running the AH, dungeons, crafting and even BG's (although there you do get experience indeed).
The biggest plus is what I wrote above: no rat race, your time schedule, you have the choice, Roleplay and ... every level has its charme and (if you want) grinding grounds both in Pve and PvP, you choose.
So you advance, feel King, you have no time strain and have fun. I don't see the problem why you would want reaching the end game in 2 months time. Because there is where you enter the rat race. Not even needed.
Well I COMPLETELY agree with you on THAT. I have never understood the maniacal rush to end game, so no arguments from me there. You're right, you don't HAVE to rush to end game in WoW or any other game. It's a shame to me that so many CHOOSE to, because they miss a lot of content doing that.
"FUN" ends for some where the rat race begins. So game in the reverse way and be King wherever you play. And believe me, very few can beat me at same or 4 levels higher (tx to the gear sets I assemble).
Isn't that great?
I really am sincerely glad that you're enjoying WoW so much.
It IS great when you find a game that you just love! And I hope that even though we don't agree on the game being great for BOTH of us....I want you to know that I truly DO think it's great that you're loving it so! It's a very polished piece of work, and worthy of kudos on many levels.
@girlgeek.
This practice comes from a new character (2 now in fact) on a complete new server. No support really. So it is possible. You earn so much money in some professions these days that the cost of 10 Gold to put on/off experience can be negelected even in the 10_20 bracket.
The difference with this mechanism compared to the old days is 2 things: the possibility of putting off experience and the LFG tool while leveling (I know you didn't like it in the end game - but as a tool for leveling dungeons the LFG tool is great).
So to me, the possibility to even play it that way makes this whole above thread rather funny. It allows me to play in a far more free style.
Of course WOW is not the first one to turn off experience (DaoC/EQ), but like a lot of things in this game, it all boils down well with other available mechanics (like the BG's brackets).
It also shows that WOW 2004 really has to be adapted in the leveling department (hence CATA), because the speed of your leveling is no longer synchronised with the professions, talent settings etc...
Professions are not worthless in WOW, the only problem is that players advance too quickly to see the benefits (or don't do professions at all just to reach end game asap).
I think Blizzard knows this and will tune the general CATA progression again with the professions and overal advancement of the talents etc...
Also I am waiting the new auto LFG tool now for the BG's (should be coming this week), so just like the leveling dungeons, the BG's will pop up very rapidly wherever you are.
I also think this mechanism should be introduced in the upcoming new MMO. People do need to have the option to adventure/craft/fight without even the need to level. But this tool just makes it possible now already.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.