If they offered ways, even very long involved ways, to acquire any item in the game without ever once being required to group to do so. No chance, eh? For me, this is my biggest problem with MMOs today and so far I've found exactly one that allows the above.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
If they offered ways, even very long involved ways, to acquire any item in the game without ever once being required to group to do so. No chance, eh? For me, this is my biggest problem with MMOs today and so far I've found exactly one that allows the above.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I personally liked them removing the elites in the open world because I found them useless. Find a group for very little reward from them was difficult without having a guild high level come and do it or waiting around for a long time finding a group.
Im sorry I have such a hard time relating to you guys.
Maybe it's due to my experience in older games that I have the social skills to get groups on the fly?
It scares me that 99% of dev developed content is targeted toward people that can't even be bothered to group and think everything needs a reward attached.
Anyone else feel this way? I've become so detached to todays mmo gamers way of thinking. It's frustrating honestly.
I remember just grouping up because it was fun, with complete strangers... damn.
If they offered ways, even very long involved ways, to acquire any item in the game without ever once being required to group to do so. No chance, eh? For me, this is my biggest problem with MMOs today and so far I've found exactly one that allows the above.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
You guys see what im talking about?!?!!? We talk about grouping with people and all this kid could speak of are dungeons.
Dude! If you play solo in a game world 100% of the time you are not a grouper because you insta teleport to a random dungeons with people across a server farm. This disconnects you from your own server community.
If they offered ways, even very long involved ways, to acquire any item in the game without ever once being required to group to do so. No chance, eh? For me, this is my biggest problem with MMOs today and so far I've found exactly one that allows the above.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
You guys see what im talking about?!?!!? We talk about grouping with people and all this kid could speak of are dungeons.
Dude! If you play solo in a game world 100% of the time you are not a grouper because you insta teleport to a random dungeons with people across a server farm. This disconnects you from your own server community.
Makes the game world meaningless.
Ugghh... I give up.
You don't seem to be able to grasp the principle of different options in a game. Grouping up in a dungeon, grouping up in a BG, grouping up in a guild, grouping up to do world content with your "friends" and solo play in the end game....
It is all there. You just think because now that you can add other people with ease, the game "lost" its grouping.
As a matter of fact it enhances the group experience, it enhances the realm play... as .... MORE people are starting to group up on server than ever before. Why do you think there is now a weekly raid quest purely designed for PUG's.... by Blizzard?
The trade and general chats are more used than ever to fill up the groups. Your definition of group play is very old hat these days. it has been supplemented with different forms of group play and yes ... that was thanks to the design of WotlK. More people than ever are doing Raids... (although STILL a minority for that I am sure)... and more people (alts) than ever are being prepared to Raid just tx to this new cross server LFG auto tool to gear up.
Win/win all over.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
If they offered ways, even very long involved ways, to acquire any item in the game without ever once being required to group to do so. No chance, eh? For me, this is my biggest problem with MMOs today and so far I've found exactly one that allows the above.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
Having lots of different loot is good, but having a game where the best loot is only achievable through raiding/group is utterly unacceptable to me. No one playstyle should give the best rewards.
An example off the top of my head for alternate route: Instance X has a boss at the end that drops some desirable item. Let's say it takes a group of 6 approximately one hour to clear the trash and get to the boss. The alternative would take the soloer all over the globe, to various caves, mini-bosses, etc that would result in the same item, but take the soloer perhaps 10-12 hours to complete. While the respective time lengths can be adjusted/debated (2:1, 3:1, 5:1, etc), the reward must be comparable.
Another way could be through crafting. The group can still do the quest as outlined above, or the soloer can spend considerably longer running around gathering up semi-rare components to craft the same item.
The advantage of these methods is that players who prefer one playstyle over the other have options. The disadvantage is that it requires developers to produce a lot more content.
Ultimately, I feel the best way is to have scalable instances where ANY mob can drop ANY item of appropriate level. This allows players to do the content they like in the group size they like and still have a chance (albeit a small one) to get any gear they want. If you add to this that no item is BoP and instead there are only BoA items, then it's very possible for everyone to get their loot. While this way also has it's flaws, I feel it's the best all around way.
Finally, apologies to the OP for somewhat derailing this thread, but it does answer the original question. Most MMOs today are soloed MOST of the time by MOST of the people playing them. As such, MMOs need to adjust and allow for soloing to be an equally viable methodto grouping for acquiring the best gear. And until games like Wow get with the times, I will never go back to them.
1. Reintroduced the original alterac valley 2. Made me able to play reckbomb paladin again 3. Reduced the level limit back to lvl 60 4. Made crafted items some of the best items in the game 5. removed death knight class 6. removed paladin from horde and shaman from ally 7. Reintroduced the rank 14 system
i got to say this one i never thot about but your actually on to something!reducing level to 60 and find a way to make it up in an alternative way for experienced player might be a very great idea .
Having lots of different loot is good, but having a game where the best loot is only achievable through raiding/group is utterly unacceptable to me. No one playstyle should give the best rewards. An example off the top of my head for alternate route: Instance X has a boss at the end that drops some desirable item. Let's say it takes a group of 6 approximately one hour to clear the trash and get to the boss. The alternative would take the soloer all over the globe, to various caves, mini-bosses, etc that would result in the same item, but take the soloer perhaps 10-12 hours to complete. While the respective time lengths can be adjusted/debated (2:1, 3:1, 5:1, etc), the reward must be comparable. Another way could be through crafting. The group can still do the quest as outlined above, or the soloer can spend considerably longer running around gathering up semi-rare components to craft the same item. The advantage of these methods is that players who prefer one playstyle over the other have options. The disadvantage is that it requires developers to produce a lot more content. Ultimately, I feel the best way is to have scalable instances where ANY mob can drop ANY item of appropriate level. This allows players to do the content they like in the group size they like and still have a chance (albeit a small one) to get any gear they want. If you add to this that no item is BoP and instead there are only BoA items, then it's very possible for everyone to get their loot. While this way also has it's flaws, I feel it's the best all around way. Finally, apologies to the OP for somewhat derailing this thread, but it does answer the original question. Most MMOs today are soloed MOST of the time by MOST of the people playing them. As such, MMOs need to adjust and allow for soloing to be an equally viable methodto grouping for acquiring the best gear. And until games like Wow get with the times, I will never go back to them.
I answered your remark above.
Apparently you didn't experience the new LFG automated tool. You are being grouped automatically as a solo player (IF you want that). The mechanism beats solo and NPC henchmen any day.
At the same time an excellent rare quest line is dropped that ultimately gives access to a 251 level weapon on par with the latest Raid weapons. (battered hilt) even BoE...
What more do you even want? And the LFG is there for 1 (solo) player , 2 - 4 friends and fill in.
Better play the game before commenting (yes I know the mechanism was only introduced in Dec, but keep informed please...).
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Forgive me for not understanding, but how can I be grouped as a solo player? I don't want to be grouped. At all. Are you saying that Wow lets me run instances solo with any class and have a reasonable chance of completing them?
Forgive me for not understanding, but how can I be grouped as a solo player? I don't want to be grouped. At all. Are you saying that Wow lets me run instances solo with any class and have a reasonable chance of completing them?
You click two buttons and - if playing solo - you are put into a group to do an heroic dungeon. No hastle.
The solo play of MMo-ers is because they hate the long time commitments to guilds etc and old hat grouping mechanisms.
While WOW is still group based in its end game. Its tools have changed that much since Dec 2009, the game is streamlined for those players that indeed HAD to play solo all the time (because of social, psycho or gaming reasons).
Quests like the "battered hilt" ones will be included even more to put on par weapons that drop in high end Raids ... for people NOT willing (or incapable) of doing those raids.
The battered hilt is such a very long (20 step) questing line, that results in a very good 251 lvl weapon. The quest line itself can even be bought on the AH (up 14K Gold or more)....
The addition of this tool however does NOT mean WOW lost its other forms of group play. This mechanism even enhanced the forming of groups for the Raids (obviously because of MORE players being prepared now).
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Forgive me for not understanding, but how can I be grouped as a solo player? I don't want to be grouped. At all. Are you saying that Wow lets me run instances solo with any class and have a reasonable chance of completing them?
You click two buttons and - if playing solo - you are put into a group to do an heroic dungeon. No hastle.
The solo play of MMo-ers is because they hate the long time commitments to guilds etc and old hat grouping mechanisms.
While WOW is still group based in its end game. Its tools have changed that much since Dec 2009, the game is streamlined for those players that indeed HAD to play solo all the time (because of social, psycho or gaming reasons).
Quests like the "battered hilt" ones will be included even more to put on par weapons that drop in high end Raids ... for people NOT willing (or incapable) of doing those raids.
While I am pleased that they are offering more options, this new mechanic would certainly not bring me back. There are more hassles to grouping than just getting the group; various afks, loot ninjas, people playing at different paces, and ofc the moronic idea that only one person in a group gets loot off a boss. If I can't do the content SOLO, I'm not really interested. This includes ALL instances, raids, etc. The thing I really dislike about Wow is the bait and switch that you can solo til the end, and then you are required to group to improve your character further. Bleh.
Forgive me for not understanding, but how can I be grouped as a solo player? I don't want to be grouped. At all. Are you saying that Wow lets me run instances solo with any class and have a reasonable chance of completing them?
You click two buttons and - if playing solo - you are put into a group to do an heroic dungeon. No hastle.
The solo play of MMo-ers is because they hate the long time commitments to guilds etc and old hat grouping mechanisms.
While WOW is still group based in its end game. Its tools have changed that much since Dec 2009, the game is streamlined for those players that indeed HAD to play solo all the time (because of social, psycho or gaming reasons).
Quests like the "battered hilt" ones will be included even more to put on par weapons that drop in high end Raids ... for people NOT willing (or incapable) of doing those raids.
While I am pleased that they are offering more options, this new mechanic would certainly not bring me back. There are more hassles to grouping than just getting the group; various afks, loot ninjas, people playing at different paces, and ofc the moronic idea that only one person in a group gets loot off a boss. If I can't do the content SOLO, I'm not really interested. This includes ALL instances, raids, etc. The thing I really dislike about Wow is the bait and switch that you can solo til the end, and then you are required to group to improve your character further. Bleh.
play assassin creed then!
as for loot ninja !it mather a lot less then it used to!but then you would know this thing if you had played it since they added the new system!
2. Dungeons and raids went back to BC level difficulty - lots of CC and good tanking/healing required for regular dungeons, and some seriously challenging heroics even for raid-geared players.
3. Dungeons continued the multi-wing approach, but wings were more of say a 30 min run, hour run, 2 hour run difference for that "epic" dungeon experience I miss from Classic WoW dungeons like DM/BRD Emp-Runs/UBRS.
4. These longer, more challenging heroic dungeons dropped gear much more similar to raid-level gear.
5. Less item stat inflation between tiers, including quest-crafting-solo-dungeon-raid.
6. Tons more epic story arc- quest chains like Battle for Undercity / Wrathgate.
7. Tons more daily quest hubs with interesting and varied quests, with less reputation/gear grind.
8. Looking For Guild tool to help find like-minded players with similar habits.
9. Meaningful and interesting PvP that mattered more about fighting for something other then yourself/points/gear.
I am at a loss here. I do not think WoW has gotten worse since they introduced the Dungeon Finder I think it has gotten better. People are using it. Plus it is having a wierd effect, people are actually wishing to join guilds. Yes...I have seen it on chat and I have even helped place people in guilds that are allied with the guild I am in. Last week one of the guilds added 5 new people. Why? Because people that never ran raids before have finally gotten a taste of them and now wish to find guilds that do raids and have dedicated players that know how to do them. Some of you seem to think that the Dungeon Finder was a bad thing...I am seeing a different effect and it is a good one.
- getting rid of bullshit like badges, achievements and esp. hardmodes
- reintroducing of pre-quests
- forbid deadly boss moods and bigwigs
- bring CC back to love
and most important bring back my fellow eq1-guild.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Originally posted by SwampRob While I am pleased that they are offering more options, this new mechanic would certainly not bring me back. There are more hassles to grouping than just getting the group; various afks, loot ninjas, people playing at different paces, and ofc the moronic idea that only one person in a group gets loot off a boss. If I can't do the content SOLO, I'm not really interested. This includes ALL instances, raids, etc. The thing I really dislike about Wow is the bait and switch that you can solo til the end, and then you are required to group to improve your character further. Bleh.
First let me state that I am in agreement with you about more options, but I don't agree with your ends to that means.
What you are suggesting is just giving away rewards for the more challenging and difficult content at the price of spending time doing easy tasks. That is why I don't your solution is a solution at all. A better solution is to offer more difficult solo content and I do not mean tacking on timesinks. There really needs to be a break through in this area for that to be achieved though.
Furthermore I think you misrepresent the bait and switch of the game. There has ALWAYS been superior items in dungeons to what is offered to solo players at comparable levels. Almost every mmo on the market has this concept and it was in wow from the beginning. One cannot chose to ignore that for 80 levels and then claim bait and switch, since it has always existed. There is a finite amount of solo content just like there is a finite amount of group content. It is so easy to reach the end of the solo content, because it is just that. Easy.
For whatever reason, superior group rewards do not seem to be a problem until people run out of experience bars to fill up.
I would go back to WoW if... 1. Cataclysm came out 2. Dungeons and raids went back to BC level difficulty - lots of CC and good tanking/healing required for regular dungeons, and some seriously challenging heroics even for raid-geared players. 3. Dungeons continued the multi-wing approach, but wings were more of say a 30 min run, hour run, 2 hour run difference for that "epic" dungeon experience I miss from Classic WoW dungeons like DM/BRD Emp-Runs/UBRS. 4. These longer, more challenging heroic dungeons dropped gear much more similar to raid-level gear. 5. Less item stat inflation between tiers, including quest-crafting-solo-dungeon-raid. 6. Tons more epic story arc- quest chains like Battle for Undercity / Wrathgate. 7. Tons more daily quest hubs with interesting and varied quests, with less reputation/gear grind. 8. Looking For Guild tool to help find like-minded players with similar habits. 9. Meaningful and interesting PvP that mattered more about fighting for something other then yourself/points/gear.
Much of what I would like to see expanded as well.
With what blizzard seems to be hinting at with the new tension between the horde/alliance I hope they develop some more on the pvp area.
With what blizzard seems to be hinting at with the new tension between the horde/alliance I hope they develop some more on the pvp area.
they had that looooong time ago,they removed it.
which means they didnt like it or players didnt like it.
They didn't remove the pvp aspect of the factions outside of the shared cities. Their efforts at world objective pvp have not gone over so well though. They seem to keep trying and I hope they build on what worked. Both old and new.
It seems blizzard is trying to build on that tension again between king Varian and Garrosh Hellscream at the same time returning the players to their respective faction cities.
If they offered ways, even very long involved ways, to acquire any item in the game without ever once being required to group to do so. No chance, eh? For me, this is my biggest problem with MMOs today and so far I've found exactly one that allows the above.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
You guys see what im talking about?!?!!? We talk about grouping with people and all this kid could speak of are dungeons.
Dude! If you play solo in a game world 100% of the time you are not a grouper because you insta teleport to a random dungeons with people across a server farm. This disconnects you from your own server community.
Makes the game world meaningless.
Ugghh... I give up.
You don't seem to be able to grasp the principle of different options in a game. Grouping up in a dungeon, grouping up in a BG, grouping up in a guild, grouping up to do world content with your "friends" and solo play in the end game....
It is all there. You just think because now that you can add other people with ease, the game "lost" its grouping.
As a matter of fact it enhances the group experience, it enhances the realm play... as .... MORE people are starting to group up on server than ever before. Why do you think there is now a weekly raid quest purely designed for PUG's.... by Blizzard?
The trade and general chats are more used than ever to fill up the groups. Your definition of group play is very old hat these days. it has been supplemented with different forms of group play and yes ... that was thanks to the design of WotlK. More people than ever are doing Raids... (although STILL a minority for that I am sure)... and more people (alts) than ever are being prepared to Raid just tx to this new cross server LFG auto tool to gear up.
Win/win all over.
IM talking MMO mechanics, Dungeon finder and BG quick queues are not mmo mechanics. If they were Halo 3 would be considered a mmo. Im speaking of the gutting of World grouping. Making server community important and alienating the players that enjoyed that aspect.
You seem to not have a handle on this so im not gonna bother.
Please excuse me while I connect to MW2 I had no idea it was a MMO after all.
Comments
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Im sorry I have such a hard time relating to you guys.
Maybe it's due to my experience in older games that I have the social skills to get groups on the fly?
It scares me that 99% of dev developed content is targeted toward people that can't even be bothered to group and think everything needs a reward attached.
Anyone else feel this way? I've become so detached to todays mmo gamers way of thinking. It's frustrating honestly.
I remember just grouping up because it was fun, with complete strangers... damn.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
You guys see what im talking about?!?!!? We talk about grouping with people and all this kid could speak of are dungeons.
Dude! If you play solo in a game world 100% of the time you are not a grouper because you insta teleport to a random dungeons with people across a server farm. This disconnects you from your own server community.
Makes the game world meaningless.
Ugghh... I give up.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
You guys see what im talking about?!?!!? We talk about grouping with people and all this kid could speak of are dungeons.
Dude! If you play solo in a game world 100% of the time you are not a grouper because you insta teleport to a random dungeons with people across a server farm. This disconnects you from your own server community.
Makes the game world meaningless.
Ugghh... I give up.
You don't seem to be able to grasp the principle of different options in a game. Grouping up in a dungeon, grouping up in a BG, grouping up in a guild, grouping up to do world content with your "friends" and solo play in the end game....
It is all there. You just think because now that you can add other people with ease, the game "lost" its grouping.
As a matter of fact it enhances the group experience, it enhances the realm play... as .... MORE people are starting to group up on server than ever before. Why do you think there is now a weekly raid quest purely designed for PUG's.... by Blizzard?
The trade and general chats are more used than ever to fill up the groups. Your definition of group play is very old hat these days. it has been supplemented with different forms of group play and yes ... that was thanks to the design of WotlK. More people than ever are doing Raids... (although STILL a minority for that I am sure)... and more people (alts) than ever are being prepared to Raid just tx to this new cross server LFG auto tool to gear up.
Win/win all over.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
Having lots of different loot is good, but having a game where the best loot is only achievable through raiding/group is utterly unacceptable to me. No one playstyle should give the best rewards.
An example off the top of my head for alternate route: Instance X has a boss at the end that drops some desirable item. Let's say it takes a group of 6 approximately one hour to clear the trash and get to the boss. The alternative would take the soloer all over the globe, to various caves, mini-bosses, etc that would result in the same item, but take the soloer perhaps 10-12 hours to complete. While the respective time lengths can be adjusted/debated (2:1, 3:1, 5:1, etc), the reward must be comparable.
Another way could be through crafting. The group can still do the quest as outlined above, or the soloer can spend considerably longer running around gathering up semi-rare components to craft the same item.
The advantage of these methods is that players who prefer one playstyle over the other have options. The disadvantage is that it requires developers to produce a lot more content.
Ultimately, I feel the best way is to have scalable instances where ANY mob can drop ANY item of appropriate level. This allows players to do the content they like in the group size they like and still have a chance (albeit a small one) to get any gear they want. If you add to this that no item is BoP and instead there are only BoA items, then it's very possible for everyone to get their loot. While this way also has it's flaws, I feel it's the best all around way.
Finally, apologies to the OP for somewhat derailing this thread, but it does answer the original question. Most MMOs today are soloed MOST of the time by MOST of the people playing them. As such, MMOs need to adjust and allow for soloing to be an equally viable methodto grouping for acquiring the best gear. And until games like Wow get with the times, I will never go back to them.
i got to say this one i never thot about but your actually on to something!reducing level to 60 and find a way to make it up in an alternative way for experienced player might be a very great idea .
I answered your remark above.
Apparently you didn't experience the new LFG automated tool. You are being grouped automatically as a solo player (IF you want that). The mechanism beats solo and NPC henchmen any day.
At the same time an excellent rare quest line is dropped that ultimately gives access to a 251 level weapon on par with the latest Raid weapons. (battered hilt) even BoE...
What more do you even want? And the LFG is there for 1 (solo) player , 2 - 4 friends and fill in.
Better play the game before commenting (yes I know the mechanism was only introduced in Dec, but keep informed please...).
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Forgive me for not understanding, but how can I be grouped as a solo player? I don't want to be grouped. At all. Are you saying that Wow lets me run instances solo with any class and have a reasonable chance of completing them?
You click two buttons and - if playing solo - you are put into a group to do an heroic dungeon. No hastle.
The solo play of MMo-ers is because they hate the long time commitments to guilds etc and old hat grouping mechanisms.
While WOW is still group based in its end game. Its tools have changed that much since Dec 2009, the game is streamlined for those players that indeed HAD to play solo all the time (because of social, psycho or gaming reasons).
Quests like the "battered hilt" ones will be included even more to put on par weapons that drop in high end Raids ... for people NOT willing (or incapable) of doing those raids.
The battered hilt is such a very long (20 step) questing line, that results in a very good 251 lvl weapon. The quest line itself can even be bought on the AH (up 14K Gold or more)....
The addition of this tool however does NOT mean WOW lost its other forms of group play. This mechanism even enhanced the forming of groups for the Raids (obviously because of MORE players being prepared now).
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
You click two buttons and - if playing solo - you are put into a group to do an heroic dungeon. No hastle.
The solo play of MMo-ers is because they hate the long time commitments to guilds etc and old hat grouping mechanisms.
While WOW is still group based in its end game. Its tools have changed that much since Dec 2009, the game is streamlined for those players that indeed HAD to play solo all the time (because of social, psycho or gaming reasons).
Quests like the "battered hilt" ones will be included even more to put on par weapons that drop in high end Raids ... for people NOT willing (or incapable) of doing those raids.
While I am pleased that they are offering more options, this new mechanic would certainly not bring me back. There are more hassles to grouping than just getting the group; various afks, loot ninjas, people playing at different paces, and ofc the moronic idea that only one person in a group gets loot off a boss. If I can't do the content SOLO, I'm not really interested. This includes ALL instances, raids, etc. The thing I really dislike about Wow is the bait and switch that you can solo til the end, and then you are required to group to improve your character further. Bleh.
You click two buttons and - if playing solo - you are put into a group to do an heroic dungeon. No hastle.
The solo play of MMo-ers is because they hate the long time commitments to guilds etc and old hat grouping mechanisms.
While WOW is still group based in its end game. Its tools have changed that much since Dec 2009, the game is streamlined for those players that indeed HAD to play solo all the time (because of social, psycho or gaming reasons).
Quests like the "battered hilt" ones will be included even more to put on par weapons that drop in high end Raids ... for people NOT willing (or incapable) of doing those raids.
While I am pleased that they are offering more options, this new mechanic would certainly not bring me back. There are more hassles to grouping than just getting the group; various afks, loot ninjas, people playing at different paces, and ofc the moronic idea that only one person in a group gets loot off a boss. If I can't do the content SOLO, I'm not really interested. This includes ALL instances, raids, etc. The thing I really dislike about Wow is the bait and switch that you can solo til the end, and then you are required to group to improve your character further. Bleh.
play assassin creed then!
as for loot ninja !it mather a lot less then it used to!but then you would know this thing if you had played it since they added the new system!
I would go back to WoW if...
1. Cataclysm came out
2. Dungeons and raids went back to BC level difficulty - lots of CC and good tanking/healing required for regular dungeons, and some seriously challenging heroics even for raid-geared players.
3. Dungeons continued the multi-wing approach, but wings were more of say a 30 min run, hour run, 2 hour run difference for that "epic" dungeon experience I miss from Classic WoW dungeons like DM/BRD Emp-Runs/UBRS.
4. These longer, more challenging heroic dungeons dropped gear much more similar to raid-level gear.
5. Less item stat inflation between tiers, including quest-crafting-solo-dungeon-raid.
6. Tons more epic story arc- quest chains like Battle for Undercity / Wrathgate.
7. Tons more daily quest hubs with interesting and varied quests, with less reputation/gear grind.
8. Looking For Guild tool to help find like-minded players with similar habits.
9. Meaningful and interesting PvP that mattered more about fighting for something other then yourself/points/gear.
I will go back when cata is announce, to have 1 last look at the old Azeroth with my level 20 shammy. And when cata is release...
RIP Orc Choppa
I would go back to WoW if....
it was pre-burning crusade wow.
with dx11 graphics and fps-like gameplay.
Generation P
I am at a loss here. I do not think WoW has gotten worse since they introduced the Dungeon Finder I think it has gotten better. People are using it. Plus it is having a wierd effect, people are actually wishing to join guilds. Yes...I have seen it on chat and I have even helped place people in guilds that are allied with the guild I am in. Last week one of the guilds added 5 new people. Why? Because people that never ran raids before have finally gotten a taste of them and now wish to find guilds that do raids and have dedicated players that know how to do them. Some of you seem to think that the Dungeon Finder was a bad thing...I am seeing a different effect and it is a good one.
At this point very unreal but...
- events like Ahn Quirai
- 40 men raids
- getting rid of bullshit like badges, achievements and esp. hardmodes
- reintroducing of pre-quests
- forbid deadly boss moods and bigwigs
- bring CC back to love
and most important bring back my fellow eq1-guild.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
First let me state that I am in agreement with you about more options, but I don't agree with your ends to that means.
What you are suggesting is just giving away rewards for the more challenging and difficult content at the price of spending time doing easy tasks. That is why I don't your solution is a solution at all. A better solution is to offer more difficult solo content and I do not mean tacking on timesinks. There really needs to be a break through in this area for that to be achieved though.
Furthermore I think you misrepresent the bait and switch of the game. There has ALWAYS been superior items in dungeons to what is offered to solo players at comparable levels. Almost every mmo on the market has this concept and it was in wow from the beginning. One cannot chose to ignore that for 80 levels and then claim bait and switch, since it has always existed. There is a finite amount of solo content just like there is a finite amount of group content. It is so easy to reach the end of the solo content, because it is just that. Easy.
For whatever reason, superior group rewards do not seem to be a problem until people run out of experience bars to fill up.
Much of what I would like to see expanded as well.
With what blizzard seems to be hinting at with the new tension between the horde/alliance I hope they develop some more on the pvp area.
they had that looooong time ago,they removed it.
which means they didnt like it or players didnt like it.
Generation P
they had that looooong time ago,they removed it.
which means they didnt like it or players didnt like it.
They didn't remove the pvp aspect of the factions outside of the shared cities. Their efforts at world objective pvp have not gone over so well though. They seem to keep trying and I hope they build on what worked. Both old and new.
It seems blizzard is trying to build on that tension again between king Varian and Garrosh Hellscream at the same time returning the players to their respective faction cities.
looks into mirrorball
2010 blizzard introduces "instanced world PvP™"
Astranaar,Barrens,Splintree Post,Tarren Mill and more!!
lft ,cross-realm,afklft,ontheflylft and more.
feel like it was back then™ update!!
world PvP™ is back!
Generation P
I'd play again if they lowered the level cap back to 60 and made the game actually challenging and rewarding.
Right now it's like... Congratulations you got to 80.... Weeeeeee......
Also, the game needs diversity in a lot of areas. Character appearance, even though a little silly, would be interesting if it were broader.
If you never want to do dungeons and raids, why again do you need the gear?
I'm not sure how developers could incorporate "long involved" solo tasks that would not just harm the grouping aspect of the game or produce anything better than what is already available. Current solo mechanics are mind numbingly easy and the long or involved that you suggest would most likely just turn into long and grindy mechanics for solo players to avoid the more challenging parts of the game to acquire the same rewards.
I would rather see developers take a path of separate endgames for grouping and solo somehow. Stop trying to give the same items to everyone for everything. Instead make a completely different gameplay avenue for solo play at max level.
Even that has problems, because the rate at which solo content is consumed will outpace what developers can produce and it will just continue the trend of turning multiplayer games into subscription fee single player games.
I guess what I am trying to say is that adding new rewards to solo play will not really solve much without developing solo gameplay more than it currently is.
A straight example here. Many many people play MMo's on a solo tour. oh they LIKE the players around them but they are for 99% playing the game solo.
Because of the late introduction of the lfg tool in WOW, a lot played it in a rather solo way up until a few months ago. Certainly in the leveling department.
I think a good mechanic is the "Battered Hilt" quest line. It is a very rare drop from the last 3 dungeons, that will give you a weapon on par with the first grades of the last Raid content.
You already need to down a handfull of bosses in Icecrwon before reaching an equal (lvl 251) weapon.
Now what do we see ? We see the thing is selling for 14K+ in my realm. That means something
Meaning? Meaning a lot of players don't go into the very latest Raid session. 14K+ Gold is still an awesome lot of money and so I think there is a market for such rare items for players not willing to do group Raid content.
That's why they made heroic dungeons and solo end levels (Tournament).
So it suffices to include in that solo end part a very rare drop that opens up a (very) long quest line to get that item.
Battered Hilt did this (albeit by running PUG heroics).
I think there is a further market for that kind of play. We overestimate the number of players doing the latest Raid content actually.
My pet peeve is: the very best and latest weapons only drop in higher group content. Batterd Hilt showed a solution to this problem. Make it BoE and you have a succes.
You guys see what im talking about?!?!!? We talk about grouping with people and all this kid could speak of are dungeons.
Dude! If you play solo in a game world 100% of the time you are not a grouper because you insta teleport to a random dungeons with people across a server farm. This disconnects you from your own server community.
Makes the game world meaningless.
Ugghh... I give up.
You don't seem to be able to grasp the principle of different options in a game. Grouping up in a dungeon, grouping up in a BG, grouping up in a guild, grouping up to do world content with your "friends" and solo play in the end game....
It is all there. You just think because now that you can add other people with ease, the game "lost" its grouping.
As a matter of fact it enhances the group experience, it enhances the realm play... as .... MORE people are starting to group up on server than ever before. Why do you think there is now a weekly raid quest purely designed for PUG's.... by Blizzard?
The trade and general chats are more used than ever to fill up the groups. Your definition of group play is very old hat these days. it has been supplemented with different forms of group play and yes ... that was thanks to the design of WotlK. More people than ever are doing Raids... (although STILL a minority for that I am sure)... and more people (alts) than ever are being prepared to Raid just tx to this new cross server LFG auto tool to gear up.
Win/win all over.
IM talking MMO mechanics, Dungeon finder and BG quick queues are not mmo mechanics. If they were Halo 3 would be considered a mmo. Im speaking of the gutting of World grouping. Making server community important and alienating the players that enjoyed that aspect.
You seem to not have a handle on this so im not gonna bother.
Please excuse me while I connect to MW2 I had no idea it was a MMO after all.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP