After reading the OP's first post and title, I'm not sure what this topic is about. They are against harsh DP judging from the title, but his post goes on to say why it doesn't make a game hard >.> But I am in favor of a harsh DP. Not lose all your items harsh, but EXP debt, durability hit, stats temporarily reduced harsh. If there was no harsh penalty, then the player wouldn't care to die, ruining the immersion. If there was a harsh DP, it will get players to help each other for greater challenges, making a better community, and once a hard challenge is complete, makes the challenge that much more meaningful.
DP, harsh or not, is more related to the type of MMO you play. In a game like DFO it isn't such a big deal if you lose your stuff, because it's craftable and it can be replaced easily. In a game like WoW you can't implement something like gear loss or deleveling upon death, because it's raid focused. Would be stupid to make 24 ppl wait for you because you have to get back your max lvl back. So in the end it all depends on the type of game, you can't have the same DP in all of them.
A death penalty is the difference between risk vs reward and repetition versus reward. It makes you care about lots of things you won't care much about without one, and believe it or not, that makes the game fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
DP, harsh or not, is more related to the type of MMO you play. In a game like DFO it isn't such a big deal if you lose your stuff, because it's craftable and it can be replaced easily. In a game like WoW you can't implement something like gear loss or deleveling upon death, because it's raid focused. Would be stupid to make 24 ppl wait for you because you have to get back your max lvl back. So in the end it all depends on the type of game, you can't have the same DP in all of them.
well you right, but what defines <harsh> is different for each game in their own unique way. Which is what you said.
But in some games they do have harsh DP. In DF the gear is easy to get, so the lost of it isnt harsh. (yes in another game like WoW, gear lost is harsh but those same penalties dont share the same effect)
But my point is that Harsh DP doesnt make gameplay harder. DP effects you after death, not during gameplay as I pointed out in the OP.
many people argue that harsh DP makes the gameplay more challenging and difficult. But thats not true. Since DP is after death, not during gameplay.
In my example from the OP with WoW. How would that extreme DP make fighting Van in Deadmines as a lvl 80 any harder? it doesnt. What about for a lvl 20? Again it doesnt make anything harder.
It only controls. Slows game play progression. Slows to the crawl as I put it.
Now player have to take there time and be more cautious. That doesnt mean the game got harder though. see what I mean yet?
DP, harsh or not, is more related to the type of MMO you play. In a game like DFO it isn't such a big deal if you lose your stuff, because it's craftable and it can be replaced easily. In a game like WoW you can't implement something like gear loss or deleveling upon death, because it's raid focused. Would be stupid to make 24 ppl wait for you because you have to get back your max lvl back. So in the end it all depends on the type of game, you can't have the same DP in all of them.
well you right, but what defines <harsh> is different for each game in their own unique way. Which is what you said.
But in some games they do have harsh DP. In DF the gear is easy to get, so the lost of it isnt harsh. (yes in another game like WoW, gear lost is harsh but those same penalties dont share the same effect)
But my point is that Harsh DP doesnt make gameplay harder. DP effects you after death, not during gameplay as I pointed out in the OP.
many people argue that harsh DP makes the gameplay more challenging and difficult. But thats not true. Since DP is after death, not during gameplay.
In my example from the OP with WoW. How would that extreme DP make fighting Van in Deadmines as a lvl 80 any harder? it doesnt. What about for a lvl 20? Again it doesnt make anything harder.
It only controls. Slows game play progression. Slows to the crawl as I put it.
Now player have to take there time and be more cautious. That doesnt mean the game got harder though. see what I mean yet?
Perhaps you should re-read this thread. Most users who are for Harsh Death Penality repeat everytime that the penality is more than just "an aftermath". It's a psychological pressure, where the "Retry" button does not exist. Every actions you make are important and will have consequences. How stupid is it to just think "alright, I'll suicide to warp back in town"?
Harsh Death Penality makes players think, reflect on their mistakes, come up with better plans, work together with other players and constantly thrives to get better and better. It doesn't just "affect you after death", it affects you through the whole gaming experience.
A group of players who have experienced harsh death penality will be much more effective than any other type of groups/party you can find. Because they think and plan before they act, they work as a team and are very organized. The only way Harsh Death Penality slows GamePlay progression, is if you do the exact opposite thing of what I just said, do whatever you feel like doing, no need to learn anything.
But of course, this type of thing doesn't catter to everyone. Many gamers simply don't want to feel the need for grouping and prefer to play a Single-Player Online RPG, and they also want everything NOW. If that's how they have fun, fine by me but don't go whine about a game with a Harsh Death Penality, just leave.
The current minority (I'm also from this crowd) who are for Harsh Death Penality, enjoy the game that way. Thinking and Planning before an encounter is part of the fun for them, and the adrenaline rush when dying simply pushes them to grow stronger and improve themselves. That's how they have fun.
As for people claiming that we, the minority, are trying to push the "HDP" mentality on others, it's quite the opposite. This thread is proof.
i can't even conceive how boring EVE would be without death penalty. I am really glad a lot of people do not agree with you OP.
Careful not to say "without" death penalty. Nobody's asking for that -- no game instantly respawns you at 100% hp where you just died, not without some form of time cost.
But beyond that, you're merely stating an opinion. Personally I think both EVE and DF would be amazing massive warfare games if they focused on massive warfare like Planetside did. Instead, both EVE and DF have all these game mechanics (some of which are excessively tedious) which cause battles to be rare, and penalize the losing side with a lot of tedium. A fun-focused, massive warfare-focused variant server for either game would be pretty amazing with the right tweaks to combat.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Most people that want a harsh death penalty have never experienced such.
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
There are many games that are just plain vanilla warfare games, and for such games i see nothing wrong with a quick respawn it sort of fits the mechanic. Though, i think even in that if you ran the risk of dying and being out until next round, you wouldnt be all that eager to hop around the corner uzi's burning away.
The no death penalty or very little death penalty kind of reflects a serious societal issue. No one wants responsibility nor consequences for a mistake or bad choice, its part of learning, planning, making good decisions etc.
Most people that want a harsh death penalty have never experienced such.
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
And we used wooden computers, don't forget that!
Harsh death penalties make people careful, and I like that.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
... The no death penalty or very little death penalty kind of reflects a serious societal issue. No one wants responsibility nor consequences for a mistake or bad choice, its part of learning, planning, making good decisions etc.
I'm with you on this & I try to hammer it into ppl when I fell like it, but it usually falls into deft ears... Moral & ethic have gone out the window in todays society.
Most people that want a harsh death penalty have never experienced such.
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
And we used wooden computers, don't forget that!
Harsh death penalties make people careful, and I like that.
And you all say We the Anti-Harsh DP, apply our wants on you all. jsut check your own statement.
So why dont you just delete your gear/character whenever you die? We both win right?
Well, its been proven in a number of ingame tests that the majority of players don't like harsh death penalties, so OP should be happy.
I personally don't care for harsh death penalities mostly because I've died from lag lots of times and I've heard horror stories of people losing their max lvls on hardcore mode due to server crashes. Also how harsh a death penalty should be should be based off of the rest of the gmae imo. I'll use L2 as an example, I'd have the death penalty be you lose one piece of equipment that you currently have equipped when you die, no xp loss but a 30 sec stat reduction debuff if you respawn back at town. If someone decides to rez you then you don't have to worry bout the short debuff. This way people won't lose the time it takes to xp in L2 which is a long time, but they can't just jump right back into the fight after they have been defeated. If they have spare equipment they only have to wait 30 secs.
And I agree with people acting differently when there is a harsh death pentalty in PvP games. They usually tend to teleport away when someone sees them or close the client so the d/c. Not much fun for a FFA PvP game.
I do not believe that death penalties are a huge problem. The game that I play, Ryzom. enforces a death penalty. The death penalty in that game increases as you fight stronger creatures and grow stronger yoruself. The thing is, by killing creatures or by performing actions such as foraging or crafting you find it easy to get rid of your death penalty without much real effort. If you want to play a game and play it well then you have to accept the death penalty and learn from it.
... The no death penalty or very little death penalty kind of reflects a serious societal issue. No one wants responsibility nor consequences for a mistake or bad choice, its part of learning, planning, making good decisions etc.
I'm with you on this & I try to hammer it into ppl when I fell like it, but it usually falls into deft ears... Moral & ethic have gone out the window in todays society.
LOL .. we are talking about GAMES here .. moral & ethics??? i am cracking up. Yeah .. i really want to be responsible with my entertainment .. wooo .. is it a responsible way to watch a movie on a big screen tv? It is so conflicted .. hahahahhaha
... The no death penalty or very little death penalty kind of reflects a serious societal issue. No one wants responsibility nor consequences for a mistake or bad choice, its part of learning, planning, making good decisions etc.
I'm with you on this & I try to hammer it into ppl when I fell like it, but it usually falls into deft ears... Moral & ethic have gone out the window in todays society.
LOL .. we are talking about GAMES here .. moral & ethics??? i am cracking up. Yeah .. i really want to be responsible with my entertainment .. wooo .. is it a responsible way to watch a movie on a big screen tv? It is so conflicted .. hahahahhaha
You don't interact with other people when watching TV.
I do not believe that death penalties are a huge problem. The game that I play, Ryzom. enforces a death penalty. The death penalty in that game increases as you fight stronger creatures and grow stronger yoruself. The thing is, by killing creatures or by performing actions such as foraging or crafting you find it easy to get rid of your death penalty without much real effort. If you want to play a game and play it well then you have to accept the death penalty and learn from it.
So you need the developers to force you to play well?
how come you cant do that yourself?
ever try deleteing your gear as you die. Iam sure that will make the DP even more risky fun, Right?
I think there's one thing that is often ignored in this discussion. The severity of a death penalty has to take into account how often you die. A harsh death penalty is best reserved for a game in which you don't die that often. Whereas a looser one is expected for a game where death is common. The first online RPG I ever played had full loot and perma-death, but it wasn't likely to happen to you all that often, unless someone was really out to kill you...
A lot of people consider WoW too much when thinking about death penalties. In WoW you die fairly often. A raid may wipe 20 times in a night, and an Alterac Valley match can kill you 50 times. But then consider something like Darkfall or EvE with a harsher death penalty. These games don't expect you die that often. Then consider City of Heroes, where strategies have been built around dead teammates. CoH expects lots of death, and so doesn't make you pay terribly hard when you die.
I think that most of the folks who argue for a harsh death penalty (myself included) would also argue for a game that didn't kill you very often. Those who want lighter penalties probably expect death to be fairly common.
Suppose that hitting 0 hp didn't always kill you? Perhaps in different circumstances, it merely KO's you, with different penalties. I think a game that didn't treat every "death" the same way might be a step in the right direction. Dying in an FFA PvP area should carry different penalties than dying in an arena, or in a raid, or in a BG, or on a solo mission, or in some kind of storyline mission. I don't think that "the perfect game" would only have one consistent death penalty.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
Sounds to me like people who are pro hard death penalties are really just wanting a gaming mechanism that punishes players that either make mistakes or play stupidly. It has nothing to do with immersion, but everything to do with sadism. Perhaps even as a method of weeding out the unwashed masses from their beloved game. An elitist tool to keep the game elite.
I think there's one thing that is often ignored in this discussion. The severity of a death penalty has to take into account how often you die. A harsh death penalty is best reserved for a game in which you don't die that often. Whereas a looser one is expected for a game where death is common. The first online RPG I ever played had full loot and perma-death, but it wasn't likely to happen to you all that often, unless someone was really out to kill you... A lot of people consider WoW too much when thinking about death penalties. In WoW you die fairly often. A raid may wipe 20 times in a night, and an Alterac Valley match can kill you 50 times. But then consider something like Darkfall or EvE with a harsher death penalty. These games don't expect you die that often. Then consider City of Heroes, where strategies have been built around dead teammates. CoH expects lots of death, and so doesn't make you pay terribly hard when you die. I think that most of the folks who argue for a harsh death penalty (myself included) would also argue for a game that didn't kill you very often. Those who want lighter penalties probably expect death to be fairly common. Suppose that hitting 0 hp didn't always kill you? Perhaps in different circumstances, it merely KO's you, with different penalties. I think a game that didn't treat every "death" the same way might be a step in the right direction. Dying in an FFA PvP area should carry different penalties than dying in an arena, or in a raid, or in a BG, or on a solo mission, or in some kind of storyline mission. I don't think that "the perfect game" would only have one consistent death penalty.
Definitely. There's also various kinds of death penalties, both light and harsh, but few people articulate that far. They just stay with HARSH DEATH PENALTY RAWR! or NO HARSH DEATH PENALTY RAWR!
Besides all of that, the severity of death has different effects on PvE and PvP. Since skill and worthy opponents are more valued in PvP, a "harsh" death penalty has more of a place there.
So you need the developers to force you to play well?
how come you cant do that yourself? ever try deleteing your gear as you die. Iam sure that will make the DP even more risky fun, Right?
At what point in any of these threads did you see anybody pushing harsh death penalties on you? You WILLINGLY went out and bought Demon Souls knowing full well that it had a harsh penalty for your mistakes. You then willingly played it expecting by some miracle of divine intervention that the code of the game would alter before your eyes and magically morph the game to suit your play style. Well guess what, tough shit.
You keep claiming that people are trying to push harsh penalties on you where I do not see any of this. The minority on this site only asks that there are a few games made to suit our tastes while you can go swim in the ever growing cesspool of face rolling, no penalty games that are currently out there. The hypocrisy in all on you and your fellow gamers that somehow want to make themselves out to be the victim when in reality you have more choice then we do. I do not understand why you'd lose sleep over games you'd NEVER PLAY but yet feel the need to come here and complain about.
You obviously play WoW and seem to fawn over that game very much. More power to you. Go to WoW, play it all day and night, enjoy it to your heart's content. I'm not taking that away from you, and neither is anybody else asking for harsher penalties for lack of foresight or planing. Just because you won't play something doesn't mean it's excluding you on purpose. Do you go to the JPL and complain that they won't let you become a Rocket Scientist? Or do you barge into a hospital specializing in neuro-surgery and demand that they make you a Brain Surgeon? You need to understand that not everybody can be an Astronaut, Doctor or what have you.. Someone will have to operate the McDonalds cash register.
It also comes down to different tastes. I'm sorry you have insecurity issues and require 11 million (is that the going number now?) other people to validate your choice and make you feel like you're not making a stupid choice. Seems like every time you hear someone not playing your game of choice, that little voice in the back of your mind speaks up going "hmm.. maybe they might be onto something" but then your ego takes over and you make a post like this... as well as your many other posts in the past. It's people like you that are completely unwilling to even try to place themselves in other people's shoes be it because you just don't care or because you are just not capable who make broad statements and never really try to understand why the other side thinks the way they do. Is it so hard for you to understand that some people would like a cerebral challenge included in their entertainment? Play the victim all you want but I for one am not buying it and neither are most of the people who share my like for a harsher game world where mistakes aren't swept under the rug and everybody gets a blue ribbon for participation.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Sounds to me like people who are pro hard death penalties are really just wanting a gaming mechanism that punishes players that either make mistakes or play stupidly.
Yes. I don't want game mechanics protecting idiocy. Some people need the rules adjusted in such a way to protect them from themselves, some of us don't. If I do something stupid I expect it to hurt, and if I can get a leg up on a player because they acted like an idiot I will take advantage of it.
I dont like them either. I play games for some light entertainment is all. Nothing more. Also i may not want to be all uptight in a video game because i play them to relax. Not some idiot 20 higher levels/skills kill me and cuss me out after he takes my loot. Its not a job to me like some people make it out to be. I dont dedicate my life to a video game. Now i do like challenging dungeons and stuff but not time consuming dungeons, there is a big big difference.
Best online experience I ever had was a MUD with eventual perma death. Keeping in mind the pvp was 90% chase. And a good pvp fight could last hours. And enforced RP and you hand an epic game with monumental pvp battles. Players who became legends because they could take on 5 people at once consistently while playing a underpowered class.
No MMO has ever matched the awesomeness of this MUD. And if you've never been in a two hour one on one pvp fight with your hands shaking and your heart beating faster, you will never know what I'm talking about. Not if you don't have perma death.
Comments
hardcore
DP, harsh or not, is more related to the type of MMO you play. In a game like DFO it isn't such a big deal if you lose your stuff, because it's craftable and it can be replaced easily. In a game like WoW you can't implement something like gear loss or deleveling upon death, because it's raid focused. Would be stupid to make 24 ppl wait for you because you have to get back your max lvl back. So in the end it all depends on the type of game, you can't have the same DP in all of them.
A death penalty is the difference between risk vs reward and repetition versus reward. It makes you care about lots of things you won't care much about without one, and believe it or not, that makes the game fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
well you right, but what defines <harsh> is different for each game in their own unique way. Which is what you said.
But in some games they do have harsh DP. In DF the gear is easy to get, so the lost of it isnt harsh. (yes in another game like WoW, gear lost is harsh but those same penalties dont share the same effect)
But my point is that Harsh DP doesnt make gameplay harder. DP effects you after death, not during gameplay as I pointed out in the OP.
many people argue that harsh DP makes the gameplay more challenging and difficult. But thats not true. Since DP is after death, not during gameplay.
In my example from the OP with WoW. How would that extreme DP make fighting Van in Deadmines as a lvl 80 any harder? it doesnt. What about for a lvl 20? Again it doesnt make anything harder.
It only controls. Slows game play progression. Slows to the crawl as I put it.
Now player have to take there time and be more cautious. That doesnt mean the game got harder though. see what I mean yet?
well you right, but what defines <harsh> is different for each game in their own unique way. Which is what you said.
But in some games they do have harsh DP. In DF the gear is easy to get, so the lost of it isnt harsh. (yes in another game like WoW, gear lost is harsh but those same penalties dont share the same effect)
But my point is that Harsh DP doesnt make gameplay harder. DP effects you after death, not during gameplay as I pointed out in the OP.
many people argue that harsh DP makes the gameplay more challenging and difficult. But thats not true. Since DP is after death, not during gameplay.
In my example from the OP with WoW. How would that extreme DP make fighting Van in Deadmines as a lvl 80 any harder? it doesnt. What about for a lvl 20? Again it doesnt make anything harder.
It only controls. Slows game play progression. Slows to the crawl as I put it.
Now player have to take there time and be more cautious. That doesnt mean the game got harder though. see what I mean yet?
Perhaps you should re-read this thread. Most users who are for Harsh Death Penality repeat everytime that the penality is more than just "an aftermath". It's a psychological pressure, where the "Retry" button does not exist. Every actions you make are important and will have consequences. How stupid is it to just think "alright, I'll suicide to warp back in town"?
Harsh Death Penality makes players think, reflect on their mistakes, come up with better plans, work together with other players and constantly thrives to get better and better. It doesn't just "affect you after death", it affects you through the whole gaming experience.
A group of players who have experienced harsh death penality will be much more effective than any other type of groups/party you can find. Because they think and plan before they act, they work as a team and are very organized. The only way Harsh Death Penality slows GamePlay progression, is if you do the exact opposite thing of what I just said, do whatever you feel like doing, no need to learn anything.
But of course, this type of thing doesn't catter to everyone. Many gamers simply don't want to feel the need for grouping and prefer to play a Single-Player Online RPG, and they also want everything NOW. If that's how they have fun, fine by me but don't go whine about a game with a Harsh Death Penality, just leave.
The current minority (I'm also from this crowd) who are for Harsh Death Penality, enjoy the game that way. Thinking and Planning before an encounter is part of the fun for them, and the adrenaline rush when dying simply pushes them to grow stronger and improve themselves. That's how they have fun.
As for people claiming that we, the minority, are trying to push the "HDP" mentality on others, it's quite the opposite. This thread is proof.
Careful not to say "without" death penalty. Nobody's asking for that -- no game instantly respawns you at 100% hp where you just died, not without some form of time cost.
But beyond that, you're merely stating an opinion. Personally I think both EVE and DF would be amazing massive warfare games if they focused on massive warfare like Planetside did. Instead, both EVE and DF have all these game mechanics (some of which are excessively tedious) which cause battles to be rare, and penalize the losing side with a lot of tedium. A fun-focused, massive warfare-focused variant server for either game would be pretty amazing with the right tweaks to combat.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
There are many games that are just plain vanilla warfare games, and for such games i see nothing wrong with a quick respawn it sort of fits the mechanic. Though, i think even in that if you ran the risk of dying and being out until next round, you wouldnt be all that eager to hop around the corner uzi's burning away.
The no death penalty or very little death penalty kind of reflects a serious societal issue. No one wants responsibility nor consequences for a mistake or bad choice, its part of learning, planning, making good decisions etc.
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
And we used wooden computers, don't forget that!
Harsh death penalties make people careful, and I like that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm with you on this & I try to hammer it into ppl when I fell like it, but it usually falls into deft ears... Moral & ethic have gone out the window in todays society.
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
And we used wooden computers, don't forget that!
Harsh death penalties make people careful, and I like that.
And you all say We the Anti-Harsh DP, apply our wants on you all. jsut check your own statement.
So why dont you just delete your gear/character whenever you die? We both win right?
Well, its been proven in a number of ingame tests that the majority of players don't like harsh death penalties, so OP should be happy.
I personally don't care for harsh death penalities mostly because I've died from lag lots of times and I've heard horror stories of people losing their max lvls on hardcore mode due to server crashes. Also how harsh a death penalty should be should be based off of the rest of the gmae imo. I'll use L2 as an example, I'd have the death penalty be you lose one piece of equipment that you currently have equipped when you die, no xp loss but a 30 sec stat reduction debuff if you respawn back at town. If someone decides to rez you then you don't have to worry bout the short debuff. This way people won't lose the time it takes to xp in L2 which is a long time, but they can't just jump right back into the fight after they have been defeated. If they have spare equipment they only have to wait 30 secs.
And I agree with people acting differently when there is a harsh death pentalty in PvP games. They usually tend to teleport away when someone sees them or close the client so the d/c. Not much fun for a FFA PvP game.
Make games you want to play.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RavikAztar
Two extreme opinions as usual...
No PVP system is better. They are just different.
PVP with no death penalty is more 'sporty' and casual.
PVP with death penalty adds some values like meaning, challenge, risk, etc.
Choose the game with PVP that suits you and stop bitching about others :-P
I do not believe that death penalties are a huge problem. The game that I play, Ryzom. enforces a death penalty. The death penalty in that game increases as you fight stronger creatures and grow stronger yoruself. The thing is, by killing creatures or by performing actions such as foraging or crafting you find it easy to get rid of your death penalty without much real effort. If you want to play a game and play it well then you have to accept the death penalty and learn from it.
www.ryzom.com
I'm with you on this & I try to hammer it into ppl when I fell like it, but it usually falls into deft ears... Moral & ethic have gone out the window in todays society.
LOL .. we are talking about GAMES here .. moral & ethics??? i am cracking up. Yeah .. i really want to be responsible with my entertainment .. wooo .. is it a responsible way to watch a movie on a big screen tv? It is so conflicted .. hahahahhaha
I'm with you on this & I try to hammer it into ppl when I fell like it, but it usually falls into deft ears... Moral & ethic have gone out the window in todays society.
LOL .. we are talking about GAMES here .. moral & ethics??? i am cracking up. Yeah .. i really want to be responsible with my entertainment .. wooo .. is it a responsible way to watch a movie on a big screen tv? It is so conflicted .. hahahahhaha
You don't interact with other people when watching TV.
So you need the developers to force you to play well?
how come you cant do that yourself?
ever try deleteing your gear as you die. Iam sure that will make the DP even more risky fun, Right?
I think there's one thing that is often ignored in this discussion. The severity of a death penalty has to take into account how often you die. A harsh death penalty is best reserved for a game in which you don't die that often. Whereas a looser one is expected for a game where death is common. The first online RPG I ever played had full loot and perma-death, but it wasn't likely to happen to you all that often, unless someone was really out to kill you...
A lot of people consider WoW too much when thinking about death penalties. In WoW you die fairly often. A raid may wipe 20 times in a night, and an Alterac Valley match can kill you 50 times. But then consider something like Darkfall or EvE with a harsher death penalty. These games don't expect you die that often. Then consider City of Heroes, where strategies have been built around dead teammates. CoH expects lots of death, and so doesn't make you pay terribly hard when you die.
I think that most of the folks who argue for a harsh death penalty (myself included) would also argue for a game that didn't kill you very often. Those who want lighter penalties probably expect death to be fairly common.
Suppose that hitting 0 hp didn't always kill you? Perhaps in different circumstances, it merely KO's you, with different penalties. I think a game that didn't treat every "death" the same way might be a step in the right direction. Dying in an FFA PvP area should carry different penalties than dying in an arena, or in a raid, or in a BG, or on a solo mission, or in some kind of storyline mission. I don't think that "the perfect game" would only have one consistent death penalty.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Sounds to me like people who are pro hard death penalties are really just wanting a gaming mechanism that punishes players that either make mistakes or play stupidly. It has nothing to do with immersion, but everything to do with sadism. Perhaps even as a method of weeding out the unwashed masses from their beloved game. An elitist tool to keep the game elite.
The trick is, with no death penalty you can fight your enemy just 'casualy' and you can afford to make mistakes.
With death penalty you do not have such options therefore it creates pressure on the player and requires more focus, effort and risk being involved.
Death penalty adds whole new level to PVP you have to deal with.
Definitely. There's also various kinds of death penalties, both light and harsh, but few people articulate that far. They just stay with HARSH DEATH PENALTY RAWR! or NO HARSH DEATH PENALTY RAWR!
Besides all of that, the severity of death has different effects on PvE and PvP. Since skill and worthy opponents are more valued in PvP, a "harsh" death penalty has more of a place there.
At what point in any of these threads did you see anybody pushing harsh death penalties on you? You WILLINGLY went out and bought Demon Souls knowing full well that it had a harsh penalty for your mistakes. You then willingly played it expecting by some miracle of divine intervention that the code of the game would alter before your eyes and magically morph the game to suit your play style. Well guess what, tough shit.
You keep claiming that people are trying to push harsh penalties on you where I do not see any of this. The minority on this site only asks that there are a few games made to suit our tastes while you can go swim in the ever growing cesspool of face rolling, no penalty games that are currently out there. The hypocrisy in all on you and your fellow gamers that somehow want to make themselves out to be the victim when in reality you have more choice then we do. I do not understand why you'd lose sleep over games you'd NEVER PLAY but yet feel the need to come here and complain about.
You obviously play WoW and seem to fawn over that game very much. More power to you. Go to WoW, play it all day and night, enjoy it to your heart's content. I'm not taking that away from you, and neither is anybody else asking for harsher penalties for lack of foresight or planing. Just because you won't play something doesn't mean it's excluding you on purpose. Do you go to the JPL and complain that they won't let you become a Rocket Scientist? Or do you barge into a hospital specializing in neuro-surgery and demand that they make you a Brain Surgeon? You need to understand that not everybody can be an Astronaut, Doctor or what have you.. Someone will have to operate the McDonalds cash register.
It also comes down to different tastes. I'm sorry you have insecurity issues and require 11 million (is that the going number now?) other people to validate your choice and make you feel like you're not making a stupid choice. Seems like every time you hear someone not playing your game of choice, that little voice in the back of your mind speaks up going "hmm.. maybe they might be onto something" but then your ego takes over and you make a post like this... as well as your many other posts in the past. It's people like you that are completely unwilling to even try to place themselves in other people's shoes be it because you just don't care or because you are just not capable who make broad statements and never really try to understand why the other side thinks the way they do. Is it so hard for you to understand that some people would like a cerebral challenge included in their entertainment? Play the victim all you want but I for one am not buying it and neither are most of the people who share my like for a harsher game world where mistakes aren't swept under the rug and everybody gets a blue ribbon for participation.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Yes. I don't want game mechanics protecting idiocy. Some people need the rules adjusted in such a way to protect them from themselves, some of us don't. If I do something stupid I expect it to hurt, and if I can get a leg up on a player because they acted like an idiot I will take advantage of it.
I dont like them either. I play games for some light entertainment is all. Nothing more. Also i may not want to be all uptight in a video game because i play them to relax. Not some idiot 20 higher levels/skills kill me and cuss me out after he takes my loot. Its not a job to me like some people make it out to be. I dont dedicate my life to a video game. Now i do like challenging dungeons and stuff but not time consuming dungeons, there is a big big difference.
Best online experience I ever had was a MUD with eventual perma death. Keeping in mind the pvp was 90% chase. And a good pvp fight could last hours. And enforced RP and you hand an epic game with monumental pvp battles. Players who became legends because they could take on 5 people at once consistently while playing a underpowered class.
No MMO has ever matched the awesomeness of this MUD. And if you've never been in a two hour one on one pvp fight with your hands shaking and your heart beating faster, you will never know what I'm talking about. Not if you don't have perma death.