You've missed the point of a harsh death penalty. It's not to make the game hard, it's to suck you into the game more. When you have more invested in the game, every encounter is much more intense and meaningful. It also ties in with risk vs reward. You more you risk, the better your reward may be, so while you're taking that risk you're on the edge of your seat.
An MMO hasn't kept me on the edge of my seat since 2003.
I disagree with the both of you.
The Difficulty of the challenge makes the reward seem more rewarding. Not the frustration of the gameplay.
Yes you are right, but the death penalty makes you play careful not sloppy, just as in real life. A death penalty is needed for that reason to make players think twice before they jump into the fire.
A game with a slim or no death penalty at all is often used as "travel", just because it's quicker to kill yourself to get to a city or landmark
I fully agree that a 'death penalty' mechanic is needed by all games to encourage players to look for better strategies and try to improve how they play the game. However, 'harsh death penalties' will actually discourage players from challenging themselves to become better players.
A death penalty is supposed to make players think of better strategies to beat a challenge. They should not make them think of not actually taking the challenge in the first place.
The 'death travel' problem is a symptom of bad game design and not really of death penalties or lack of them. If you desing your zones properly it stops being an issue. Heck, WoW pretty much eliminated the problem for most normal situations.
Most people that want a harsh death penalty have never experienced such.
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
And we used wooden computers, don't forget that!
Harsh death penalties make people careful, and I like that.
And you all say We the Anti-Harsh DP, apply our wants on you all. jsut check your own statement.
So why dont you just delete your gear/character whenever you die? We both win right?
Now you are just being silly. If you are playing a game that is designed to encourage people to be careful, one assumes that you agree to abide by the same set of rules that I did.
As for deleting my character, that has nothing to do with whether or not the game mechanics encourage a more cautious style of game play.
As for enforcing my wants on you, why yes, if you are playing in the sort of game I enjoy, I do expect you to abide (endure?) the same conditions as I and others who pay for the game do. That's why there are different games with different sorts of death penalties.
You enjoy WOW and its death penalty, great, but I won't ever play it again unless they create a FFA PVP server.
You can come play EVE as it currently designed and I will welcome you. But ask for a PVE only server and I'll resist the suggestion completely.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you had no DP in games like Aion, Warhammer, thier be a total exodus of subscription
There was a total exodus of subs from these games. Warhammer doesn't have a DP worth mentioning that I remember, and Aion's was too harsh which sent me running for the cancel button.
For the bring your A game crowd, success is from succeeding not from dieing without penalty. And more to the point, prepare all you like if you get steam rolled by a group of gankers in PvP you're going to die. The game won't time freeze and say he's pushing the right keys at the right time... gankers drop. You die, they laugh, rinse repeat.
In PvE getting people together for a raid is annoyingly long as is, I don't want to add to the downtime with artificial travel/item/xp loss. Sub numbers don't lie, the majority of players do not like death penalties. When an MMO with a harsh death penalty approaches mass appeal we can talk again.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Best online experience I ever had was a MUD with eventual perma death. Keeping in mind the pvp was 90% chase. And a good pvp fight could last hours. And enforced RP and you hand an epic game with monumental pvp battles. Players who became legends because they could take on 5 people at once consistently while playing a underpowered class. No MMO has ever matched the awesomeness of this MUD. And if you've never been in a two hour one on one pvp fight with your hands shaking and your heart beating faster, you will never know what I'm talking about. Not if you don't have perma death.
Two hours for one fight? TYVM. Tell me the name of this MUD so that i can avoid it. Oh, i don't play MUD anymore anyway.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
Best online experience I ever had was a MUD with eventual perma death. Keeping in mind the pvp was 90% chase. And a good pvp fight could last hours. And enforced RP and you hand an epic game with monumental pvp battles. Players who became legends because they could take on 5 people at once consistently while playing a underpowered class. No MMO has ever matched the awesomeness of this MUD. And if you've never been in a two hour one on one pvp fight with your hands shaking and your heart beating faster, you will never know what I'm talking about. Not if you don't have perma death.
Two hours for one fight? TYVM. Tell me the name of this MUD so that i can avoid it. Oh, i don't play MUD anymore anyway.
sounds good to me,,I dont know that MUDs name but I can tell you one thing,many of todays MMORPGS are basically MUDs with graphics(wants to be),Multi User Dungeons.
but fact is ,these games nowadays are Multi User Disasters.
Considering the examples offered of harsh DP include character deletion, then things such as statloss - item loss - and all the rest would be okay?
DPs in general ask the player to think before acting, and for the twitchy folks out there - that is just too much. Different games have varying levels of DP, some pretty weak and some on the frustrating side. But if I wanted saved games, a certain number of lives, and all that - well, I would not be playing MMORPGs - would I? So why are you?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
You just aren't getting it are you? They've said it over and over, they want others to suffer for their failures and mistakes. It's all about punishing other players with a mechanic that appeals to them.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
You just aren't getting it are you? They've said it over and over, they want others to suffer for their failures and mistakes. It's all about punishing other players with a mechanic that appeals to them.
so how is this not enforcing HDP on others?
Now iam confused. Cause you flamed me early in the thread stateing something about pro-DP people dont enforce this on others, but then you turn around a contridict yourself in this quote by stateing HDP has no effect on pro-DP players unless it effects others.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
I think it has more to do with the idea of everyone having the same game play experience.
I would say that a harsh death penalty makes the game harder because most death penalties set the player back somehow. Whether it is time or experience or a debuff.
Thus, continuing the game with a debuff or lost/dropped items or having to continue with an xp debt makes it a bit harder to compete. The extreme example of this would be that a person always dying and always losing xp or having xp debt or having to replace equipment would be fighting an uphill battle against the person who never died.
But as I said, I do think it's about being in the game and having the same experience as other players. So sure, a person who loved perma-death and who deleted their character every time, might be able to do that regardless of other people who don't do it yet part of the fun is sharing that experience with other people who also are going through the same thing. I think that is part of the draw for these games. It's not only social interaction but sharing a larger social experience.
There is a certain value to us humans commiserating together.
The largest problem I have with the whole "harsh death penalty/death penalty with meaning" crowd is that they can be very shortsighted.
newsflash. losing xp is not a harsh death penalty to me. Having to run back to my corpse is. THAT has meaning for me because I don't want to find my way back to my corpse. It's not fun. It's tedious. And if it is a long way then it is also VERY tedious. Therefore that is a harsher death penalty for me than something like xp loss which is often touted as being harsh. I will be back in the game and xp is always ongoing so it's not really a big deal for me and therefore has no meaning.
That is, again, why this discussion doesn't work. everyone is trying to argue what is meaningful and we have yet to be able to establish some common ground for what is meaningful.
That is why having no death penalty is still ok with me because losing in the end is meaningful for me. Where I have an issue with a lack of death penalty is where players kill themselves for a quick port to town. Never in my entire online game history have I done that because the idea of dying just resonates with me as failure. But for those players who don't care about dying as such, a light death penalty is just a port.
We essentially have all sorts of disparate people in the same games all valuing some sort of different experience but not really able to unite on the one experience we are all getting in the game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Best online experience I ever had was a MUD with eventual perma death. Keeping in mind the pvp was 90% chase. And a good pvp fight could last hours. And enforced RP and you hand an epic game with monumental pvp battles. Players who became legends because they could take on 5 people at once consistently while playing a underpowered class. No MMO has ever matched the awesomeness of this MUD. And if you've never been in a two hour one on one pvp fight with your hands shaking and your heart beating faster, you will never know what I'm talking about. Not if you don't have perma death.
Two hours for one fight? TYVM. Tell me the name of this MUD so that i can avoid it. Oh, i don't play MUD anymore anyway.
sounds good to me,,I dont know that MUDs name but I can tell you one thing,many of todays MMORPGS are basically MUDs with graphics(wants to be),Multi User Dungeons.
but fact is ,these games nowadays are Multi User Disasters.
Yeah . i used to play MUDs .. an graphical MUDS ... today's MMORPGs are much better than text MUDS. I switched and never look back.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
[Mod Edit]
i have heard a lot of ridiculous arguments on this forum but this takes the cake.
so they should gimp themselves while no one else does? brilliant!
what really needs to happen is different types of MMOs need to come out, maybe sub genres of the MMO genre. so casuals like you can find games like WoW where there are no penalties at all and you can just focus on mindless fun with no repercussions of your actions.
where as others on this post can find more "hardcore" games, where death is more than a sting where your actions can bring consequences. clearly listed so you casual can run from it.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
I think it has more to do with the idea of everyone having the same game play experience.
I would say that a harsh death penalty makes the game harder because most death penalties set the player back somehow. Whether it is time or experience or a debuff.
Thus, continuing the game with a debuff or lost/dropped items or having to continue with an xp debt makes it a bit harder to compete. The extreme example of this would be that a person always dying and always losing xp or having xp debt or having to replace equipment would be fighting an uphill battle against the person who never died.
But as I said, I do think it's about being in the game and having the same experience as other players. So sure, a person who loved perma-death and who deleted their character every time, might be able to do that regardless of other people who don't do it yet part of the fun is sharing that experience with other people who also are going through the same thing. I think that is part of the draw for these games. It's not only social interaction but sharing a larger social experience.
There is a certain value to us humans commiserating together.
The largest problem I have with the whole "harsh death penalty/death penalty with meaning" crowd is that they can be very shortsighted.
newsflash. losing xp is not a harsh death penalty to me. Having to run back to my corpse is. THAT has meaning for me because I don't want to find my way back to my corpse. It's not fun. It's tedious. And if it is a long way then it is also VERY tedious. Therefore that is a harsher death penalty for me than something like xp loss which is often touted as being harsh. I will be back in the game and xp is always ongoing so it's not really a big deal for me and therefore has no meaning.
That is, again, why this discussion doesn't work. everyone is trying to argue what is meaningful and we have yet to be able to establish some common ground for what is meaningful.
That is why having no death penalty is still ok with me because losing in the end is meaningful for me. Where I have an issue with a lack of death penalty is where players kill themselves for a quick port to town. Never in my entire online game history have I done that because the idea of dying just resonates with me as failure. But for those players who don't care about dying as such, a light death penalty is just a port.
We essentially have all sorts of disparate people in the same games all valuing some sort of different experience but not really able to unite on the one experience we are all getting in the game.
This. For those that like a harsh death penalty, fine. For those that don't, fine. Neither way is correct or better.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
You just aren't getting it are you? They've said it over and over, they want others to suffer for their failures and mistakes. It's all about punishing other players with a mechanic that appeals to them.
so how is this not enforcing HDP on others?
Now iam confused. Cause you flamed me early in the thread stateing something about pro-DP people dont enforce this on others, but then you turn around a contridict yourself in this quote by stateing HDP has no effect on pro-DP players unless it effects others.
You are a very confused person, not once have I ever said one thing positive about people who like harsh death penalties. My point is that your argument has no merit because they aren't interested in punishing themselves, they WANT to see other people suffer from this mechanic.
Harsh Death Penalty makes games frustrating, not hard.
Harsh Death Penalty doesn’t make a game Harder. Gameplay is what makes a game hard or not.
I find the argument that Harsh Death Penalty is needed in a game to make it hard illogical.
You can even use a truth-table to realize that that is an invalid argument. p=harsh DP q= harder
p-->q invalid arguement Iam going to use the game “Demon Soul” for my first explanation.
For many people, Demon Soul is believed to be hard because of its harsh death penalty. But in truth the harsh DP only adds frustration to the game.
To better understand what I mean. For a moment, let’s imagine that Demon Soul had a lesser death penalty, but 100% the same gameplay. (You know longer lose 100% all your soul, but the soul you collected from the mission alone)
Would the game be harder? The game play stayed the same, (buggy controls and lock on, and the Animation locks all still there)
The gameplay didn’t change, but the frustration lessened. So how does DP regulate the difficulty lvls of a game?
----------------------------------------------- Another example more down to earth. Many people believe World of Warcraft is the EazyMode of the MMORPG genre. Well what if we added a EXTREME DEATH PENALTY to the game and kept the gameplay the same as it once was.
(Lets add Permanent Death to characters, and if you die 3 times on a single account, it gets locked and closed)
Now with the same gameplay currently in WoW, with this added Death Penalty, would the game be harder? Yes.
I can still solo mobs and such right? So how did making the DP extremely harsh, make the game harder? Only thing it added was frustration. See what I mean yet? WoW, you arn't worried about death. So you take more risks that result in you understanding more about mobs faster. If you are more cautious from the get-go, you learn about the game at a slow pace and it is harder because you arn't sure of your limits.
I play games to have fun, and relax, not to be frustrated to death.
If WoW had the kind of DP used in my example, people then would never explore or try new things outside of what is considered the normal. Harsh Death Penalty scares off players in PvP gameplay. With that kind of DP, who would participate in World PvP if you have a high chance of your character being deleted and forced to start a new character over from lvl 1? Yes I know iam going to the extreme on my explanation. Most MMOs don’t use DP as harsh as this, but my point still remains valid. The game caters to its design. Its a poor example to take existing games and change thier DP and use that as an example. Its purely misleading. Games that incorporate hard DP usually have an understanding and have flourishing PvP.
Harsh DP doesn’t add difficulty Yes it does.. It only adds Frustration!! It scares off players to try new things and explore. It reduces the epicness of Large Scale PvP populations from what it could potentially have been. I hardly think a 1000v1000 fight would be as epic as a 100v100 if the 1000v1000 had no penalty for death. It just means its gonna be a clusterf**k. The 100v100 will be filled with skilled players that know what they are doing and doing thier best to win without death. --------------------------------------- I really dislike the current way Harsh DP is used as a gimmick to control players. That’s all it is. A gimmick to ether slow player progression to a crawl or to scare player with the “join a team or die” mind set. Nothing but a lame ways of control. I don’t mind gold sinks for DP to control economy, but when used to control gameplay, that’s a whole different ballpark.
I think that a harsh DP, if done right, creates a much better game.
But the issue is that it must be done in a way that doesn't reduce fun. But I think it does add challenge.
Your issue is that in Demon Souls (I've never played it) sounds like it has a poorly implemented death penalty.
But look at Ultima Online when it first came out. You lost everything if you were killed in world pvp. And I mean you will even lose your corpse(it can be chopped up and carried away)! But in that game, most of your equipment was fairly easily replaceable and you could get back into the fray without being set back too hard. Or Lineage 2, you lost an item at random and exp for a death. That game had a large population and active PvP.
Part of the point of a harsh DP is to control gameplay. It forces the player to look at thier HP bar and it mean something. Yes, it slows progression. It does that to alter the intended gameplay thats designed. The DP will mean that you don't take a huge risk for an unknown reward but instead you will think of your next move or take a few smaller risks or find a way to reduce your risk.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
Never played demons soul's but If I'll give an example and tell you what I think.. OK I die in some game and when I come back to life lets say I have half my health until I get something to bring me back to full. How does that not make the game harder? Yes it may be frustrating but it makes the game harder because you don't have full health, so you can't take as many hits and you have to be more careful.
Now if you took the same game and got rid of that death penalty it doesn't make it any harder because you still have the same health. Games with exp loss make it more time consuming to level and IMO it makes it harder to level cuz if you keep dying your never going to level up. I can hear the people say time consuming doesn't = harder but I beg to differ. Lets say I fight a monster and it took 5 hits to kill. That seems pretty easy right? Now lets take the same monster but it takes 5000 hits to kill, does that not make it harder to kill? The actual game play may not have became more difficult but the amount of times you had to hit the monster went up so here to me it was harder to kill.
To the WoW thing, it doesn't make the actual game play harder but It makes getting to max level harder. Which are what death penalties are for. To some it may be frustrating to die and have a penalty but you've got to remember not all people are the same. So just don't play games where you feel frustrated.. IMO games that don't have some sort of harsh death penalties are bad because people just think they can do whatever they want and don't feel any real danger...
Like if I were exploring a cave and stumbled upon a dragon. If there was no death penalty I wouldn't think twice and zerg in and if I died I died oh well, I can respawn and go on with my business. If there is a harsh penalty I'll think twice before I just go zerg some monster that will eat me alive. I would look at the surrounding get a plan together to either fight it or find a way to get around it.
When things such as lag, desync, server crashes, disconnects, client crashes, etc. have been completely eliminated from existence, then yes, I'd not mind harsher death penalties in multiplayer games. Until those problems are gone, consider me against them. There's nothing more annoying than having some ridiculously harsh penalty imposed upon you due to circumstances which were beyond your control.
Comments
I agree. It is a very decadent way to live your life and people with this mindset really should get professional help.
"I am 100% Totally against Harsh Death Penalty"
Well I am 110% totally for a harsh death penalty.
I disagree with the both of you.
The Difficulty of the challenge makes the reward seem more rewarding. Not the frustration of the gameplay.
Yes you are right, but the death penalty makes you play careful not sloppy, just as in real life. A death penalty is needed for that reason to make players think twice before they jump into the fire.
A game with a slim or no death penalty at all is often used as "travel", just because it's quicker to kill yourself to get to a city or landmark
I fully agree that a 'death penalty' mechanic is needed by all games to encourage players to look for better strategies and try to improve how they play the game. However, 'harsh death penalties' will actually discourage players from challenging themselves to become better players.
A death penalty is supposed to make players think of better strategies to beat a challenge. They should not make them think of not actually taking the challenge in the first place.
The 'death travel' problem is a symptom of bad game design and not really of death penalties or lack of them. If you desing your zones properly it stops being an issue. Heck, WoW pretty much eliminated the problem for most normal situations.
no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?
how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?
no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"
and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.
I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.
EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.
Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.
i read it i just don't give a shit what games you played. "omg when i use to go to school we had to walk up a hill BOTH WAYS .. in the SNOW ... BAREFOOT".
thats basically the nonsense i got from your post.
And we used wooden computers, don't forget that!
Harsh death penalties make people careful, and I like that.
And you all say We the Anti-Harsh DP, apply our wants on you all. jsut check your own statement.
So why dont you just delete your gear/character whenever you die? We both win right?
Now you are just being silly. If you are playing a game that is designed to encourage people to be careful, one assumes that you agree to abide by the same set of rules that I did.
As for deleting my character, that has nothing to do with whether or not the game mechanics encourage a more cautious style of game play.
As for enforcing my wants on you, why yes, if you are playing in the sort of game I enjoy, I do expect you to abide (endure?) the same conditions as I and others who pay for the game do. That's why there are different games with different sorts of death penalties.
You enjoy WOW and its death penalty, great, but I won't ever play it again unless they create a FFA PVP server.
You can come play EVE as it currently designed and I will welcome you. But ask for a PVE only server and I'll resist the suggestion completely.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There was a total exodus of subs from these games. Warhammer doesn't have a DP worth mentioning that I remember, and Aion's was too harsh which sent me running for the cancel button.
For the bring your A game crowd, success is from succeeding not from dieing without penalty. And more to the point, prepare all you like if you get steam rolled by a group of gankers in PvP you're going to die. The game won't time freeze and say he's pushing the right keys at the right time... gankers drop. You die, they laugh, rinse repeat.
In PvE getting people together for a raid is annoyingly long as is, I don't want to add to the downtime with artificial travel/item/xp loss. Sub numbers don't lie, the majority of players do not like death penalties. When an MMO with a harsh death penalty approaches mass appeal we can talk again.
Really, this is dumb. There is no "right" answer. Different people want a different experience from their game time is all. There's no moral or philosophical conundrum here. We might as well argue over whether Apple Pie or Cherry Pie is "correct". All you gotta do is make sure you don't order apple when you actually like cherry. What's it to you what flavour pie the other guy likes?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Two hours for one fight? TYVM. Tell me the name of this MUD so that i can avoid it. Oh, i don't play MUD anymore anyway.
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
Two hours for one fight? TYVM. Tell me the name of this MUD so that i can avoid it. Oh, i don't play MUD anymore anyway.
sounds good to me,,I dont know that MUDs name but I can tell you one thing,many of todays MMORPGS are basically MUDs with graphics(wants to be),Multi User Dungeons.
but fact is ,these games nowadays are Multi User Disasters.
Generation P
Considering the examples offered of harsh DP include character deletion, then things such as statloss - item loss - and all the rest would be okay?
DPs in general ask the player to think before acting, and for the twitchy folks out there - that is just too much. Different games have varying levels of DP, some pretty weak and some on the frustrating side. But if I wanted saved games, a certain number of lives, and all that - well, I would not be playing MMORPGs - would I? So why are you?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
You just aren't getting it are you? They've said it over and over, they want others to suffer for their failures and mistakes. It's all about punishing other players with a mechanic that appeals to them.
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
You just aren't getting it are you? They've said it over and over, they want others to suffer for their failures and mistakes. It's all about punishing other players with a mechanic that appeals to them.
so how is this not enforcing HDP on others?
Now iam confused. Cause you flamed me early in the thread stateing something about pro-DP people dont enforce this on others, but then you turn around a contridict yourself in this quote by stateing HDP has no effect on pro-DP players unless it effects others.
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
I think it has more to do with the idea of everyone having the same game play experience.
I would say that a harsh death penalty makes the game harder because most death penalties set the player back somehow. Whether it is time or experience or a debuff.
Thus, continuing the game with a debuff or lost/dropped items or having to continue with an xp debt makes it a bit harder to compete. The extreme example of this would be that a person always dying and always losing xp or having xp debt or having to replace equipment would be fighting an uphill battle against the person who never died.
But as I said, I do think it's about being in the game and having the same experience as other players. So sure, a person who loved perma-death and who deleted their character every time, might be able to do that regardless of other people who don't do it yet part of the fun is sharing that experience with other people who also are going through the same thing. I think that is part of the draw for these games. It's not only social interaction but sharing a larger social experience.
There is a certain value to us humans commiserating together.
The largest problem I have with the whole "harsh death penalty/death penalty with meaning" crowd is that they can be very shortsighted.
newsflash. losing xp is not a harsh death penalty to me. Having to run back to my corpse is. THAT has meaning for me because I don't want to find my way back to my corpse. It's not fun. It's tedious. And if it is a long way then it is also VERY tedious. Therefore that is a harsher death penalty for me than something like xp loss which is often touted as being harsh. I will be back in the game and xp is always ongoing so it's not really a big deal for me and therefore has no meaning.
That is, again, why this discussion doesn't work. everyone is trying to argue what is meaningful and we have yet to be able to establish some common ground for what is meaningful.
That is why having no death penalty is still ok with me because losing in the end is meaningful for me. Where I have an issue with a lack of death penalty is where players kill themselves for a quick port to town. Never in my entire online game history have I done that because the idea of dying just resonates with me as failure. But for those players who don't care about dying as such, a light death penalty is just a port.
We essentially have all sorts of disparate people in the same games all valuing some sort of different experience but not really able to unite on the one experience we are all getting in the game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Two hours for one fight? TYVM. Tell me the name of this MUD so that i can avoid it. Oh, i don't play MUD anymore anyway.
sounds good to me,,I dont know that MUDs name but I can tell you one thing,many of todays MMORPGS are basically MUDs with graphics(wants to be),Multi User Dungeons.
but fact is ,these games nowadays are Multi User Disasters.
Yeah . i used to play MUDs .. an graphical MUDS ... today's MMORPGs are much better than text MUDS. I switched and never look back.
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
[Mod Edit]
i have heard a lot of ridiculous arguments on this forum but this takes the cake.
so they should gimp themselves while no one else does? brilliant!
what really needs to happen is different types of MMOs need to come out, maybe sub genres of the MMO genre. so casuals like you can find games like WoW where there are no penalties at all and you can just focus on mindless fun with no repercussions of your actions.
where as others on this post can find more "hardcore" games, where death is more than a sting where your actions can bring consequences. clearly listed so you casual can run from it.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
I think it has more to do with the idea of everyone having the same game play experience.
I would say that a harsh death penalty makes the game harder because most death penalties set the player back somehow. Whether it is time or experience or a debuff.
Thus, continuing the game with a debuff or lost/dropped items or having to continue with an xp debt makes it a bit harder to compete. The extreme example of this would be that a person always dying and always losing xp or having xp debt or having to replace equipment would be fighting an uphill battle against the person who never died.
But as I said, I do think it's about being in the game and having the same experience as other players. So sure, a person who loved perma-death and who deleted their character every time, might be able to do that regardless of other people who don't do it yet part of the fun is sharing that experience with other people who also are going through the same thing. I think that is part of the draw for these games. It's not only social interaction but sharing a larger social experience.
There is a certain value to us humans commiserating together.
The largest problem I have with the whole "harsh death penalty/death penalty with meaning" crowd is that they can be very shortsighted.
newsflash. losing xp is not a harsh death penalty to me. Having to run back to my corpse is. THAT has meaning for me because I don't want to find my way back to my corpse. It's not fun. It's tedious. And if it is a long way then it is also VERY tedious. Therefore that is a harsher death penalty for me than something like xp loss which is often touted as being harsh. I will be back in the game and xp is always ongoing so it's not really a big deal for me and therefore has no meaning.
That is, again, why this discussion doesn't work. everyone is trying to argue what is meaningful and we have yet to be able to establish some common ground for what is meaningful.
That is why having no death penalty is still ok with me because losing in the end is meaningful for me. Where I have an issue with a lack of death penalty is where players kill themselves for a quick port to town. Never in my entire online game history have I done that because the idea of dying just resonates with me as failure. But for those players who don't care about dying as such, a light death penalty is just a port.
We essentially have all sorts of disparate people in the same games all valuing some sort of different experience but not really able to unite on the one experience we are all getting in the game.
This. For those that like a harsh death penalty, fine. For those that don't, fine. Neither way is correct or better.
Dunno what kind of fights you are having where both loses.
Generation P
Hilarious mental image. I think from now on anytime I delete an item in any MMORPG I'm going to imagine my character chewing the item into oblivion.
*nomnomnom, Delicious Full Plate, nomnomnom* "Sandvich and I are coming for you!"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Hilarious mental image. I think from now on anytime I delete an item in any MMORPG I'm going to imagine my character chewing the item into oblivion.
*nomnomnom, Delicious Full Plate, nomnomnom* "Sandvich and I are coming for you!"
hehe but itsnot that funny when you play with wannabe-realistic-like PvP rules.
Imagine Battlefield game where 1 player carries 10 tanks 15 aeroplanes in his backpack.
then someone attacks him ,in hopes to get some sugar,but master powerhouse starts deleting those items ?
and thats not happening in PvP games but its happening in wannabe-realistic-like MMORPG PvP games.
Generation P
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
But in a game like WoW, nobody is stoping these pro-HDP from deleting their gear or toons whenever they die.
Think about it. We all win, if they would cause their own HDP on themself when they die.
My point in the OP, was that DP doesnt make the game harder. take away the DP but keep the gameplay the same, and you would see.
You just aren't getting it are you? They've said it over and over, they want others to suffer for their failures and mistakes. It's all about punishing other players with a mechanic that appeals to them.
so how is this not enforcing HDP on others?
Now iam confused. Cause you flamed me early in the thread stateing something about pro-DP people dont enforce this on others, but then you turn around a contridict yourself in this quote by stateing HDP has no effect on pro-DP players unless it effects others.
You are a very confused person, not once have I ever said one thing positive about people who like harsh death penalties. My point is that your argument has no merit because they aren't interested in punishing themselves, they WANT to see other people suffer from this mechanic.
I think that a harsh DP, if done right, creates a much better game.
But the issue is that it must be done in a way that doesn't reduce fun. But I think it does add challenge.
Your issue is that in Demon Souls (I've never played it) sounds like it has a poorly implemented death penalty.
But look at Ultima Online when it first came out. You lost everything if you were killed in world pvp. And I mean you will even lose your corpse(it can be chopped up and carried away)! But in that game, most of your equipment was fairly easily replaceable and you could get back into the fray without being set back too hard. Or Lineage 2, you lost an item at random and exp for a death. That game had a large population and active PvP.
Part of the point of a harsh DP is to control gameplay. It forces the player to look at thier HP bar and it mean something. Yes, it slows progression. It does that to alter the intended gameplay thats designed. The DP will mean that you don't take a huge risk for an unknown reward but instead you will think of your next move or take a few smaller risks or find a way to reduce your risk.
Good post and I completely agree.
People keep forgetting that we are different. I don't know how as we are constantly reminded of it every minute of the day!
There are people who, if they die, that is penalty enough. They feel it as actual failure. I am one of those people. I don't really require any death penalty as the idea that i failed is penalty enough and very meaningful.
There are people who need the fear of death, the fear of consequence to force them to play at their A game. They essentially need the spanking.
hmmmm... I wonder if any of this can be tracked to how people were raised in their homes by their parents....
now THAT'S a thought.
I got whacked a couple of times as a kid.
It taught me not to get caught
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Never played demons soul's but If I'll give an example and tell you what I think.. OK I die in some game and when I come back to life lets say I have half my health until I get something to bring me back to full. How does that not make the game harder? Yes it may be frustrating but it makes the game harder because you don't have full health, so you can't take as many hits and you have to be more careful.
Now if you took the same game and got rid of that death penalty it doesn't make it any harder because you still have the same health. Games with exp loss make it more time consuming to level and IMO it makes it harder to level cuz if you keep dying your never going to level up. I can hear the people say time consuming doesn't = harder but I beg to differ. Lets say I fight a monster and it took 5 hits to kill. That seems pretty easy right? Now lets take the same monster but it takes 5000 hits to kill, does that not make it harder to kill? The actual game play may not have became more difficult but the amount of times you had to hit the monster went up so here to me it was harder to kill.
To the WoW thing, it doesn't make the actual game play harder but It makes getting to max level harder. Which are what death penalties are for. To some it may be frustrating to die and have a penalty but you've got to remember not all people are the same. So just don't play games where you feel frustrated.. IMO games that don't have some sort of harsh death penalties are bad because people just think they can do whatever they want and don't feel any real danger...
Like if I were exploring a cave and stumbled upon a dragon. If there was no death penalty I wouldn't think twice and zerg in and if I died I died oh well, I can respawn and go on with my business. If there is a harsh penalty I'll think twice before I just go zerg some monster that will eat me alive. I would look at the surrounding get a plan together to either fight it or find a way to get around it.
When things such as lag, desync, server crashes, disconnects, client crashes, etc. have been completely eliminated from existence, then yes, I'd not mind harsher death penalties in multiplayer games. Until those problems are gone, consider me against them. There's nothing more annoying than having some ridiculously harsh penalty imposed upon you due to circumstances which were beyond your control.
Oh, and as far as Demon's Souls goes? www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1321-Demons-Souls pretty much sums up my opinion.