I am sure all of you have played the original Marion Bros. at some point, even if you are too young to have gotten the Nintendo when it game out. That game was hard. You had to do things right, the first time, or you died horribly. Once you died horribly, you were dead. You had a finite number of chances, after which, that was it. Game over. That kind of danger tapered off at some point, but I still think it is a good idea. I am not promoting "hardcore" games, in which death is really death, but something where death is upsetting, would be good. I know some people argue that "it's a game, and we should not have to endure anythign even slightly unpleasant during our gametime." Perhaps that is true, but for me, if there is no risk, there is no reward. That is true in life, and in games, if there is no risk, I feel like I have accomplished nothing, no matter what I do.
Yes ,and to me these so called "games" nowadays are just cracked Mario Brosses with unlimited lives and Trainer+++
I have to agree. I do not really agree with the principles behind level-based games, but if you are going to have levels, then they should mean something. Someone that has made it to the maximum level should be impressive. That is why serious experience penalties (for pve-based games) have my vote all the way.
And this is what I have argued for many iterations of this thread.
XP loss NOT meaningful. NOT.
xp loss has no real meaning for me. I will be back in game in a heartbeat and the xp will flow just as easily as before. There is no sting to xp loss unless you want to up it to something extreme. I played Linegae 2 for 4+ years. I could care less about xp loss. However, dropping items WAS a sting becuase I hate making money in these games therefore replacing items was a pain.
You can't argue that something is meaningful for everyone when it is clearly subjective. The death penalty in wow is FAR more meaningful for me because it's tedious. Very tedious. I hate tedium.
In Lineage 2 I could die a few times and not really feel the need to take a break. If I died a 2 to 3 times in wow I would just shut the thing off. Not fun anymore.
People are arguing meaningful whe they don't actually consider or haven't taken the time to think what that actually means to the individual.
You can't say somethign is meaningful when it has no value whatsoever with another group of people. You can say it has meaning for you and that I appreicate. But to say that one concept has universal meaning means not taking into account how differently we are all put together.
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no ,dont you understand,you are calling losing to nonsense.
Again, do not blame people for not accepting your invalid and flawed arguments.
The loser does not need to suffer a damage in order to make someone else victorious.
The truth is, you can lose just simply by failing without any loss.
Loss is optional, nothing as needed.
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Why does losing/winning matter in say, WoW, when you don't lose anything and come back 1 minute later and win? World PvP never ended in WoW because of ghost form, no exp loss. Good luck taking over an exp spot, because the person you killed will wait in ghost form and jump you once you engage. You could've killed him 50 times and he can still be there annoying you. Now if he lost 1 hour of experience, he might go away after the first death (loot and scoot in EQ).
This thread is badly titled and it should be something like "Why I need a death penalty". Just because you want it doesn't mean everyone does. You are only able to speak for yourself in this regard.
Why is it only WoW and EQ are being brought up? There are plenty of games out there a harsh death penalty. WoW and EQ system do not define every mmo, so if you are going to discuss it please stop acting like these are the only two mmos that exist. This topic seems more like rage against wow and how its to easy compared to EQ.
I have to agree. I do not really agree with the principles behind level-based games, but if you are going to have levels, then they should mean something. Someone that has made it to the maximum level should be impressive. That is why serious experience penalties (for pve-based games) have my vote all the way.
And this is what I have argued for many iterations of this thread.
XP loss NOT meaningful. NOT.
xp loss has no real meaning for me. I will be back in game in a heartbeat and the xp will flow just as easily as before. There is no sting to xp loss unless you want to up it to something extreme. I played Linegae 2 for 4+ years. I could care less about xp loss. However, dropping items WAS a sting becuase I hate making money in these games therefore replacing items was a pain.
You can't argue that something is meaningful for everyone when it is clearly subjective. The death penalty in wow is FAR more meaningful for me because it's tedious. Very tedious. I hate tedium.
In Lineage 2 I could die a few times and not really feel the need to take a break. If I died a 2 to 3 times in wow I would just shut the thing off. Not fun anymore.
People are arguing meaningful whe they don't actually consider or haven't taken the time to think what that actually means to the individual.
You can't say somethign is meaningful when it has no value whatsoever with another group of people. You can say it has meaning for you and that I appreicate. But to say that one concept has universal meaning means not taking into account how differently we are all put together.
Death penalty in WoW is tedious? Wtf?
Are you sure you played WoW?
Even the worst players could play WoW and reach level 60. Dying doesn't matter, you just retry. The worst players in the game were level 60.
And the 60's in WoW were nobodies, even me, even though I was #1 on the server. Too many lousy 60's.
I just don't feel your reasons alone justify a harsh death penalty. As these reasons make no difference to me or my experience.
Death penalties are good for socialization, they create a need for better cooperation. That's a sound reason to include harsh penalties. SWG's system was perfect IMO as it placed healing and socialization on the same tier of game-play. It didn't feel like a penalty it felt like it was time for some R&R. You had music, people and plenty of conversation.
It didn't scare you away from going back out and pvping or exploring. As you knew it would be fun regardless if you happened to die. The same thing goes for how they handled equipment durability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This thread is badly titled and it should be something like "Why I need a death penalty". Just because you want it doesn't mean everyone does. You are only able to speak for yourself in this regard.
Most people in this thread seem to agree that it is needed, you should try reading it before you respond.
I'm just trying to convince you guys why they aren't doing you a favor by getting rid of the death penalty. They're just making their game boring
I have to agree. I do not really agree with the principles behind level-based games, but if you are going to have levels, then they should mean something. Someone that has made it to the maximum level should be impressive. That is why serious experience penalties (for pve-based games) have my vote all the way. If you need to group, and play with some skill to defeat encounters, and if you fail you lose some actual time and effort, than the importance of doing well is more significant. I know MMOs do not have the same levels of difficulty that we used to find in single player games. I am sure all of you have played the original Marion Bros. at some point, even if you are too young to have gotten the Nintendo when it game out. That game was hard. You had to do things right, the first time, or you died horribly. Once you died horribly, you were dead. You had a finite number of chances, after which, that was it. Game over. That kind of danger tapered off at some point, but I still think it is a good idea. I am not promoting "hardcore" games, in which death is really death, but something where death is upsetting, would be good. I know some people argue that "it's a game, and we should not have to endure anythign even slightly unpleasant during our gametime." Perhaps that is true, but for me, if there is no risk, there is no reward. That is true in life, and in games, if there is no risk, I feel like I have accomplished nothing, no matter what I do.
I agree, I don't like it when MMOs have levels, because its alot less about skill, but more about "you have played this game for 1000 hours in the past month, congrats, NOW you can actually do something". But, in Global Agenda, I think they did XP well, because it doesn't affect fun, its just the more you play, the more you level and you get more equipment, it does affect gameplay a bit but you can still jump in as level 1 and have fun you just don't have as many weapons, unlike most mmos like WoW.
I just don't feel your reasons alone justify a harsh death penalty. As these reasons make no difference to me or my experience. Death penalties are good for socialization, they create a need for better cooperation. That's a sound reason to include harsh penalties. SWG's system was perfect IMO as it placed healing and socialization on the same tier of game-play. It didn't feel like a penalty it felt like it was time for some R&R. You had music, people and plenty of conversation. It didn't scare you away from going back out and pvping or exploring. As you knew it would be fun regardless if you happened to die. The same thing goes for how they handled equipment durability.
Yeah, I forgot that reason.
Games with death penalties encourage grouping because groups tend to be safer. It would be really easy to die in EQ if you tried soloing.
If you did die, you have to find someone to give you a resurrection, and might travel 10-20 minutes just to find them. A lot of times you would even give them a tip.
Definitely encouraged socialization. Only thing lack of a DP encourages is antisocialism
They need to lose something significant.. It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing. Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Why does losing/winning matter in say, WoW, when you don't lose anything and come back 1 minute later and win? World PvP never ended in WoW because of ghost form, no exp loss. Good luck taking over an exp spot, because the person you killed will wait in ghost form and jump you once you engage. You could've killed him 50 times and he can still be there annoying you. Now if he lost 1 hour of experience, he might go away after the first death (loot and scoot in EQ).
Just because he is still there annoying you doesn't mean that he/she doesn't feel the sting of the loss. Are you arguing for the idea of meaningful death penalty or are you arguing for a death penalty that will eventualy hamper your opponent?
Just because I lose 50% xp doesn't mean I won't come backif i feel that I have a chance that I can take you.
If I lost 1 hour of xp I would still be back to try and take you. But I will also feel the loss as I don't like losing.
And in the end I would say that given your example above there is meaning to "loss" but of a different sort.
You find the person coming back over and over to be annoying. So in the end, even though you have won the battle you have lost the war. You want him to stop but he won't stop until you leave the spot. In order for you to win you need to meet him each and every time so that eventually he will realize you aren't going anywhere and he gets bored and leaves.
Otherwise in the end, he is the one who has won if he can annoy you enough to leave.
And again, that is the argument. What is meaningful for one person might not have meaning for another. Now, if he delevelled several times duirng his losses (meaning that the xp loss was very extreme) he might not bother you again. But he might not feel the "loss" just that he can't take you at this time.
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Death penalty in WoW is tedious? Wtf? Are you sure you played WoW? Even the worst players could play WoW and reach level 60. Dying doesn't matter, you just retry. The worst players in the game were level 60. And the 60's in WoW were nobodies, even me, even though I was #1 on the server. Too many lousy 60's.
yes. I hate running back. I just hate it. Hate it. Just like I hate the debuff in LOTRO.
give me xp loss over running or that ridiculous debuff.
You see, I play these games to "play". I dont' find running back to my corpse fun. Nor do I find the debuff fun as it could mean I just go afk for 10 minutes until I'm effective again.
Anything that hampers play is not fun. Xp loss doesn't hamper play because I can just jump back into the game and play.
Running means I appear somwhere on the map and have to sit there and essentially do my little marathon before I can play again. Therefore tedious. Tedious is not fun.
Give me a monetary loss for death. THAT has meaning for me. That has sting.
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Just because he is still there annoying you doesn't mean that he/she doesn't feel the sting of the loss. Are you arguing for the idea of meaningful death penalty or are you arguing for a death penalty that will eventualy hamper your opponent?
Just because I lose 50% xp doesn't mean I won't come back as if i feel that I can take you.
If I lost 1 hour of xp I would still be back to try and take you. But I will also feel the loss as I don't like losing.
And in the end I would say that given your example above there is meaning to "loss" but of a different sort.
You find the person coming back over and over to be annoying. So in the end, even though you have won the battle you have lost the war. You want him to stop but he won't stop until you leave the spot. In order for you to win you need to meet him each and every time so that eventually he will realize you aren't going anywhere and he gets bored and leaves.
Otherwise in the end, he is the one who has won if he can annoy you enough to leave.
And again, that is the argument. What is meaningful for one person might not have meaning for another. Now, if he delevelled several times duirng his losses (meaning that the xp loss was very extreme) he might not bother you again. But he might not feel the "loss" just that he can't take you at this time.
To answer your question, Both.
They don't feel the sting of the loss. They get pissed, sure. But then they will piss you off for killing them, and you can't do anything about it, because they didn't lose anything. Eventually they get even by just wasting your time. World PvP was quickly dead in WoW because of that. People just shared exp spots with the other team because they realized if they PvPed they would only waste both of their time. You could never take over an exp spot.
People just didn't come back and fight in games with exp loss in EQ, because their corpse with gear would be where you killed them. For them to get their corpse(items), they agree to give you the exp spot. Otherwise, the other player can prevent them from getting their corpse. Of course if they spawn in ghost form, or with their items, they might just come back and bother you, like they do in WoW.
If you lose the fight, you shouldn't be able to come back and waste the other persons time. If there was a penalty, they wouldn't do that. If there wasn't ghost form, they wouldn't do that. If their gear stayed on their corpse where they died, they wouldnt do that. Without any of that, they will annoy you, even thought you've WON.
So how do you win in a system like that? People never PvPed because of that fact.
This thread is badly titled and it should be something like "Why I need a death penalty". Just because you want it doesn't mean everyone does. You are only able to speak for yourself in this regard.
Most people in this thread seem to agree that it is needed, you should try reading it before you respond.
I'm just trying to convince you guys why they aren't doing you a favor by getting rid of the death penalty. They're just making their game boring
lol. You believe your own writing. The tiny sample in this thread means nothing. If death penalties were the end all be all that you believe the market would have adjusted into the harsh death penalty mode rather than softening. Markets respond to what works for the consumer.
But if you really believe you can win with your ideas, why not start your own company and show everyone how wrong they are. If death penalties are so great you will become rich.
Death penalty in WoW is tedious? Wtf? Are you sure you played WoW? Even the worst players could play WoW and reach level 60. Dying doesn't matter, you just retry. The worst players in the game were level 60. And the 60's in WoW were nobodies, even me, even though I was #1 on the server. Too many lousy 60's.
yes. I hate running back. I just hate it. Hate it. Just like I hate the debuff in LOTRO.
give me xp loss over running or that ridiculous debuff.
You see, I play these games to "play". I dont' find running back to my corpse fun. Nor do I find the debuff fun as it could mean I just go afk for 10 minutes until I'm effective again.
Anything that hampers play is not fun. Xp loss doesn't hamper play because I can just jump back into the game and play.
Running means I appear somwhere on the map and have to sit there and essentially do my little marathon before I can play again. Therefore tedious. Tedious is not fun.
Give me a monetary loss for death. THAT has meaning for me. That has sting.
So what? Dying isn't fun, obviously. But winning is.
But in a game without exp loss, neither are meaningful. You win, you dont care. You lose, you dont care.
I'd rather be happy and sad than apathetic all the time.
Oh, so you don't like running back, or exp loss? Lol. Good. Maybe you won't die as much when you play? Maybe there will be less level 60's
This thread reminded me why I quit WoW in the first place. I hated how you could have almost no fun without being a high level and I just didn't have the time to waste grinding all day and night, which is why I am against leveling in games in general. Unless games find a way to do it well, and the only one I have encountered which can is Global Agenda. But, back on topic, do you guys think its easier to put a death penalty in Level or Non-Level based games?
These types of death penalties, especially in PvP games are recipes for failure.
The net result is, a small core of early adopters, no-lifers and hardcore players quickly rise to the top and the rest of the players basically become their bitches. The bitches, who started later, don't have the time to play 10 hours per day, and/or don't spent insane amounts of time figuring out how to min/max the system, therefore do not enjoy the game and move on.
Games have tried this, and you can clearly see the end-result. So go play Darkfall, which is your last best hope for what you're angling for.
It sounds like you're in favor of exp loss upon death. In that case, I might as well copy and paste my response from another similar thread.
We can argue about this all we want, but I have a feeling that nostalgia is once again rearing its ugly head. "We" like harsh death penalties because the first MMOs had them, and, thus, they are familiar; they feel "right". This reasoning won't hold in a discussion, so we try to throw arguments like "it increases the risk factor!" and "why play a game if you don't want to be whipped and mutilated each time you die?" I believe it's called masochism to experience pleasure through pain; why fight so hard for harsh death penalties if they don't please us?
There needs to be repercussions, of course. In single-player RPGs, this is most likely a matter of reloading from the last save point, which can either be a very weak or a very harsh penalty, depending on how much progress you've lost. Single-player RPGs are not persistent worlds, so in an MMO, which is a persistent world, why should we also lose progress? This is why I'm against experience loss upon death most of all. I spent the last hour getting that level, and you can't hit pause and shift back the clock an hour just because a mob sneaked up on me and killed me while I was AFK for 2 minutes. That's how I feel, anyways.
Other death penalties which may be considered "harsh", like full-loot or heavy stat loss, I can deal with. Full-loot punishes you after your death economically because you have to recoup the items you lost. Stat loss punishes you performance-wise because you will struggle to play effectively. Of the two, I prefer economic loss. If the stat loss is not too harsh, i.e. it doesn't render you completely useless for X amount of time, then that's okay too. The point is, I want to play the game. If I can only play at 25% of my power for X amount of time, that sucks. I'd rather spend that time making money to replace my economic loss.
Like single-player games, economic loss is also scalable. If you only fly what you can afford to lose (anyone who plays the game knows this rule), your losses shouldn't be too harsh. However, if there's a lapse of judgment or unfortunate circumstances and you happen to lose a lot, that may cause you to curse and scream and RAAAAAGH I HATE THIS GAME, BUT I CAN'T STOP PLAYING! Similarly, if you saved 2 minutes before you died in a single-player RPG, you won't cry as much as if you had saved an hour ago.
With economic loss, there needs to be some insurance system so that people can feel it's at least semi-safe to bring their best equipment out to a fight. Either that, or it needs to be fairly easy to obtain that best equipment. In any case, you don't want noobs fighting with starter swords and underpants because they're afraid to lose their gear.
I'll admit, though, your reasoning was a bit different. You want to be #1 on the leaderboard, the best max-level player out there who can tackle all the super-elite content with your core group of second, third, and fourth best buddies. At least, that's how you sound to me.
In that case, I recommend a game like RuneScape where your dedication is rewarded by a leaderboard, though you'd have to work pretty hard and long to be #1. But you get out what you put in, right?
And, Sovrath, I agree with you, though I think exp loss is stupid.
Death penalty in WoW is tedious? Wtf? Are you sure you played WoW? Even the worst players could play WoW and reach level 60. Dying doesn't matter, you just retry. The worst players in the game were level 60. And the 60's in WoW were nobodies, even me, even though I was #1 on the server. Too many lousy 60's.
yes. I hate running back. I just hate it. Hate it. Just like I hate the debuff in LOTRO.
give me xp loss over running or that ridiculous debuff.
You see, I play these games to "play". I dont' find running back to my corpse fun. Nor do I find the debuff fun as it could mean I just go afk for 10 minutes until I'm effective again.
Anything that hampers play is not fun. Xp loss doesn't hamper play because I can just jump back into the game and play.
Running means I appear somwhere on the map and have to sit there and essentially do my little marathon before I can play again. Therefore tedious. Tedious is not fun.
Give me a monetary loss for death. THAT has meaning for me. That has sting.
So what? Dying isn't fun, obviously. But winning is.
But in a game without exp loss, neither are meaningful. You win, you dont care. You lose, you dont care.
I'd rather be happy and sad than apathetic all the time.
Oh, so you don't like running back, or exp loss? Lol. Good. Maybe you won't die as much when you play? Maybe there will be less level 60's
Read again. I don't mind xp loss. I don't like running. I don't "love" xp loss but will take it any day over the running.
You want me to feel the sting? as I said. "monetary".
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These types of death penalties, especially in PvP games are recipes for failure.
The net result is, a small core of early adopters, no-lifers and hardcore players quickly rise to the top and the rest of the players basically become their bitches. The bitches, who started later, don't have the time to play 10 hours per day, and/or don't spent insane amounts of time figuring out how to min/max the system, therefore do not enjoy the game and move on.
Games have tried this, and you can clearly see the end-result. So go play Darkfall, which is your last best hope for what you're angling for.
Time investment should be a part of MMORPGs. You don't feel attached to your character if you have nothing invested in it.
You act like having a death penalty means that people have to invest massive amounts of time too. No, it just means when you play you have to care about winning and losing. You can't die, and you will avoid it. How does that relate to playing 10 hours a day? It doesn't. People who play WoW had way more time than the people who played EQ.
It's not hardcore, no-lifers who want the death penalty. It's people who have played MMORPGs back when they were fun.
What are you even arguing for anyway? People who start later? How does this relate to a death penalty? It relates to a leveling system.
As I said, time investment is a good thing for MMORPGs. I really don't like MMORPGs that are basically handing out level 80s. The players who want to feel a sense of accomplishment will not play those games, because they're a number, and everythin in the game is free.
Originally posted by huge_froglok But in a game without exp loss, neither are meaningful. You win, you dont care. You lose, you dont care.
I think you are right. When I go out to play golf, I never feel satisfied until all opponents having higher par than me gets at least 1 finger cut off. (I am typing this with 3 fingers I have left only)
To answer your question, Both. They don't feel the sting of the loss. They get pissed, sure. But then they will piss you off for killing them, and you can't do anything about it, because they didn't lose anything. Eventually they get even by just wasting your time. World PvP was quickly dead in WoW because of that. People just shared exp spots with the other team because they realized if they PvPed they would only waste both of their time. You could never take over an exp spot. People just didn't come back and fight in games with exp loss in EQ, because their corpse with gear would be where you killed them. For them to get their corpse(items), they agree to give you the exp spot. Otherwise, the other player can prevent them from getting their corpse. Of course if they spawn in ghost form, or with their items, they might just come back and bother you, like they do in WoW.
If you lose the fight, you shouldn't be able to come back and waste the other persons time. If there was a penalty, they wouldn't do that. If there wasn't ghost form, they wouldn't do that. If their gear stayed on their corpse where they died, they wouldnt do that. Without any of that, they will annoy you, even thought you've WON. So how do you win in a system like that? People never PvPed because of that fact.
But then they've won.
I get what you are saying, don't think I don't. You are saying that if someone losses something and enough of it eventually they will go.
But the thing is that won't make them go. If they keep coming back over and over again then that is about something else. Most reasonable people will see that you will waste them and they will find something better to do with their time. It's the mean, vindictive people who are essentially saying "if you can kill me then the least I can do is annoy you". It's not really in the spirit of the game but there it is.
But xp loss? I would just play it differnetly. I would come back 2 or 3 times. If I couldn't get you I would acknowledge that you are a superior force. So I would just get reinforcements and come back and wipe you. Of course you would do the same and eventually we would have a good ol' fashioned bar brawl. And that's fun.
But don't think xp loss is going to make me stop just because I can't get you. All that means is I need a larger army.
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I agree about time commitment, except I think there is a limit were games have too much, like WoW, I believe it has too much of a time commitment there is a line were games require too much time, thats why I tend to stick to Sci-Fi games, because they tend to make it so it requires an average time commitment and they usually stay away from Levels along with adding death penalties. Its also why I quit fantasy MMOs
'hey boss, our income has gone through the roof, but this guy here wants to become famous and wants our game to filter out the bad guys. We should develop a system where the player who died has to start over.
So only the very good players will stay and that 90% others caled bad players wil quit it .
"You do realize that we lose 90% of our income and we can close the game ?""
"yeah, but then the Op of that post can be elite and play with others who are on the same level. C'mon boss, he wants to feel special, he may not be something IRL, at least he can be special in this game "
"okay, I had enough, so your advising me to choose between $$$ and a server where this fellow can feel special?
Okay, you're fired"
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
It sounds like you're in favor of exp loss upon death. In that case, I might as well copy and paste my response from another similar thread.
We can argue about this all we want, but I have a feeling that nostalgia is once again rearing its ugly head. "We" like harsh death penalties because the first MMOs had them, and, thus, they are familiar; they feel "right". This reasoning won't hold in a discussion, so we try to throw arguments like "it increases the risk factor!" and "why play a game if you don't want to be whipped and mutilated each time you die?" I believe it's called masochism to experience pleasure through pain; why fight so hard for harsh death penalties if they don't please us? There needs to be repercussions, of course. In single-player RPGs, this is most likely a matter of reloading from the last save point, which can either be a very weak or a very harsh penalty, depending on how much progress you've lost. Single-player RPGs are not persistent worlds, so in an MMO, which is a persistent world, why should we also lose progress? This is why I'm against experience loss upon death most of all. I spent the last hour getting that level, and you can't hit pause and shift back the clock an hour just because a mob sneaked up on me and killed me while I was AFK for 2 minutes. That's how I feel, anyways. Other death penalties which may be considered "harsh", like full-loot or heavy stat loss, I can deal with. Full-loot punishes you after your death economically because you have to recoup the items you lost. Stat loss punishes you performance-wise because you will struggle to play effectively. Of the two, I prefer economic loss. If the stat loss is not too harsh, i.e. it doesn't render you completely useless for X amount of time, then that's okay too. The point is, I want to play the game. If I can only play at 25% of my power for X amount of time, that sucks. I'd rather spend that time making money to replace my economic loss. Like single-player games, economic loss is also scalable. If you only fly what you can afford to lose (anyone who plays the game knows this rule), your losses shouldn't be too harsh. However, if there's a lapse of judgment or unfortunate circumstances and you happen to lose a lot, that may cause you to curse and scream and RAAAAAGH I HATE THIS GAME, BUT I CAN'T STOP PLAYING! Similarly, if you saved 2 minutes before you died in a single-player RPG, you won't cry as much as if you had saved an hour ago. With economic loss, there needs to be some insurance system so that people can feel it's at least semi-safe to bring their best equipment out to a fight. Either that, or it needs to be fairly easy to obtain that best equipment. In any case, you don't want noobs fighting with starter swords and underpants because they're afraid to lose their gear.
I'll admit, though, your reasoning was a bit different. You want to be #1 on the leaderboard, the best max-level player out there who can tackle all the super-elite content with your core group of second, third, and fourth best buddies. At least, that's how you sound to me. In that case, I recommend a game like RuneScape where your dedication is rewarded by a leaderboard, though you'd have to work pretty hard and long to be #1. But you get out what you put in, right? And, Sovrath, I agree with you, though I think exp loss is stupid.
I don't like death penalties because they were in my first MMORPG. I like them because they made the game more fun.
Your argument about DP's is off as well. No one said we enjoyed the Death Penalty. We said that it makes "not dying" more meaningful. I don't think anyone here has said dying is fun in games with a death penalty..
What does being #1 have to do with death penalties? I said that games like WoW hand out level 80's, and you're a number, and everything is given away for free, and leveling is not challenging. You can't be somebody when there are so many people with the same level, same stuff as you. Once they put in penalties, make leveling difficult, and limit server population, then people will be somebody on their server again.
Comments
Yes ,and to me these so called "games" nowadays are just cracked Mario Brosses with unlimited lives and Trainer+++
Generation P
And this is what I have argued for many iterations of this thread.
XP loss NOT meaningful. NOT.
xp loss has no real meaning for me. I will be back in game in a heartbeat and the xp will flow just as easily as before. There is no sting to xp loss unless you want to up it to something extreme. I played Linegae 2 for 4+ years. I could care less about xp loss. However, dropping items WAS a sting becuase I hate making money in these games therefore replacing items was a pain.
You can't argue that something is meaningful for everyone when it is clearly subjective. The death penalty in wow is FAR more meaningful for me because it's tedious. Very tedious. I hate tedium.
In Lineage 2 I could die a few times and not really feel the need to take a break. If I died a 2 to 3 times in wow I would just shut the thing off. Not fun anymore.
People are arguing meaningful whe they don't actually consider or haven't taken the time to think what that actually means to the individual.
You can't say somethign is meaningful when it has no value whatsoever with another group of people. You can say it has meaning for you and that I appreicate. But to say that one concept has universal meaning means not taking into account how differently we are all put together.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Again, do not blame people for not accepting your invalid and flawed arguments.
The loser does not need to suffer a damage in order to make someone else victorious.
The truth is, you can lose just simply by failing without any loss.
Loss is optional, nothing as needed.
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Why does losing/winning matter in say, WoW, when you don't lose anything and come back 1 minute later and win? World PvP never ended in WoW because of ghost form, no exp loss. Good luck taking over an exp spot, because the person you killed will wait in ghost form and jump you once you engage. You could've killed him 50 times and he can still be there annoying you. Now if he lost 1 hour of experience, he might go away after the first death (loot and scoot in EQ).
This thread is badly titled and it should be something like "Why I need a death penalty". Just because you want it doesn't mean everyone does. You are only able to speak for yourself in this regard.
Why is it only WoW and EQ are being brought up? There are plenty of games out there a harsh death penalty. WoW and EQ system do not define every mmo, so if you are going to discuss it please stop acting like these are the only two mmos that exist. This topic seems more like rage against wow and how its to easy compared to EQ.
And this is what I have argued for many iterations of this thread.
XP loss NOT meaningful. NOT.
xp loss has no real meaning for me. I will be back in game in a heartbeat and the xp will flow just as easily as before. There is no sting to xp loss unless you want to up it to something extreme. I played Linegae 2 for 4+ years. I could care less about xp loss. However, dropping items WAS a sting becuase I hate making money in these games therefore replacing items was a pain.
You can't argue that something is meaningful for everyone when it is clearly subjective. The death penalty in wow is FAR more meaningful for me because it's tedious. Very tedious. I hate tedium.
In Lineage 2 I could die a few times and not really feel the need to take a break. If I died a 2 to 3 times in wow I would just shut the thing off. Not fun anymore.
People are arguing meaningful whe they don't actually consider or haven't taken the time to think what that actually means to the individual.
You can't say somethign is meaningful when it has no value whatsoever with another group of people. You can say it has meaning for you and that I appreicate. But to say that one concept has universal meaning means not taking into account how differently we are all put together.
Death penalty in WoW is tedious? Wtf?
Are you sure you played WoW?
Even the worst players could play WoW and reach level 60. Dying doesn't matter, you just retry. The worst players in the game were level 60.
And the 60's in WoW were nobodies, even me, even though I was #1 on the server. Too many lousy 60's.
I just don't feel your reasons alone justify a harsh death penalty. As these reasons make no difference to me or my experience.
Death penalties are good for socialization, they create a need for better cooperation. That's a sound reason to include harsh penalties. SWG's system was perfect IMO as it placed healing and socialization on the same tier of game-play. It didn't feel like a penalty it felt like it was time for some R&R. You had music, people and plenty of conversation.
It didn't scare you away from going back out and pvping or exploring. As you knew it would be fun regardless if you happened to die. The same thing goes for how they handled equipment durability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most people in this thread seem to agree that it is needed, you should try reading it before you respond.
I'm just trying to convince you guys why they aren't doing you a favor by getting rid of the death penalty. They're just making their game boring
I agree, I don't like it when MMOs have levels, because its alot less about skill, but more about "you have played this game for 1000 hours in the past month, congrats, NOW you can actually do something". But, in Global Agenda, I think they did XP well, because it doesn't affect fun, its just the more you play, the more you level and you get more equipment, it does affect gameplay a bit but you can still jump in as level 1 and have fun you just don't have as many weapons, unlike most mmos like WoW.
Yeah, I forgot that reason.
Games with death penalties encourage grouping because groups tend to be safer. It would be really easy to die in EQ if you tried soloing.
If you did die, you have to find someone to give you a resurrection, and might travel 10-20 minutes just to find them. A lot of times you would even give them a tip.
Definitely encouraged socialization. Only thing lack of a DP encourages is antisocialism
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Why does losing/winning matter in say, WoW, when you don't lose anything and come back 1 minute later and win? World PvP never ended in WoW because of ghost form, no exp loss. Good luck taking over an exp spot, because the person you killed will wait in ghost form and jump you once you engage. You could've killed him 50 times and he can still be there annoying you. Now if he lost 1 hour of experience, he might go away after the first death (loot and scoot in EQ).
Just because he is still there annoying you doesn't mean that he/she doesn't feel the sting of the loss. Are you arguing for the idea of meaningful death penalty or are you arguing for a death penalty that will eventualy hamper your opponent?
Just because I lose 50% xp doesn't mean I won't come backif i feel that I have a chance that I can take you.
If I lost 1 hour of xp I would still be back to try and take you. But I will also feel the loss as I don't like losing.
And in the end I would say that given your example above there is meaning to "loss" but of a different sort.
You find the person coming back over and over to be annoying. So in the end, even though you have won the battle you have lost the war. You want him to stop but he won't stop until you leave the spot. In order for you to win you need to meet him each and every time so that eventually he will realize you aren't going anywhere and he gets bored and leaves.
Otherwise in the end, he is the one who has won if he can annoy you enough to leave.
And again, that is the argument. What is meaningful for one person might not have meaning for another. Now, if he delevelled several times duirng his losses (meaning that the xp loss was very extreme) he might not bother you again. But he might not feel the "loss" just that he can't take you at this time.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
yes. I hate running back. I just hate it. Hate it. Just like I hate the debuff in LOTRO.
give me xp loss over running or that ridiculous debuff.
You see, I play these games to "play". I dont' find running back to my corpse fun. Nor do I find the debuff fun as it could mean I just go afk for 10 minutes until I'm effective again.
Anything that hampers play is not fun. Xp loss doesn't hamper play because I can just jump back into the game and play.
Running means I appear somwhere on the map and have to sit there and essentially do my little marathon before I can play again. Therefore tedious. Tedious is not fun.
Give me a monetary loss for death. THAT has meaning for me. That has sting.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Just because he is still there annoying you doesn't mean that he/she doesn't feel the sting of the loss. Are you arguing for the idea of meaningful death penalty or are you arguing for a death penalty that will eventualy hamper your opponent?
Just because I lose 50% xp doesn't mean I won't come back as if i feel that I can take you.
If I lost 1 hour of xp I would still be back to try and take you. But I will also feel the loss as I don't like losing.
And in the end I would say that given your example above there is meaning to "loss" but of a different sort.
You find the person coming back over and over to be annoying. So in the end, even though you have won the battle you have lost the war. You want him to stop but he won't stop until you leave the spot. In order for you to win you need to meet him each and every time so that eventually he will realize you aren't going anywhere and he gets bored and leaves.
Otherwise in the end, he is the one who has won if he can annoy you enough to leave.
And again, that is the argument. What is meaningful for one person might not have meaning for another. Now, if he delevelled several times duirng his losses (meaning that the xp loss was very extreme) he might not bother you again. But he might not feel the "loss" just that he can't take you at this time.
To answer your question, Both.
They don't feel the sting of the loss. They get pissed, sure. But then they will piss you off for killing them, and you can't do anything about it, because they didn't lose anything. Eventually they get even by just wasting your time. World PvP was quickly dead in WoW because of that. People just shared exp spots with the other team because they realized if they PvPed they would only waste both of their time. You could never take over an exp spot.
People just didn't come back and fight in games with exp loss in EQ, because their corpse with gear would be where you killed them. For them to get their corpse(items), they agree to give you the exp spot. Otherwise, the other player can prevent them from getting their corpse. Of course if they spawn in ghost form, or with their items, they might just come back and bother you, like they do in WoW.
If you lose the fight, you shouldn't be able to come back and waste the other persons time. If there was a penalty, they wouldn't do that. If there wasn't ghost form, they wouldn't do that. If their gear stayed on their corpse where they died, they wouldnt do that. Without any of that, they will annoy you, even thought you've WON.
So how do you win in a system like that? People never PvPed because of that fact.
Most people in this thread seem to agree that it is needed, you should try reading it before you respond.
I'm just trying to convince you guys why they aren't doing you a favor by getting rid of the death penalty. They're just making their game boring
lol. You believe your own writing. The tiny sample in this thread means nothing. If death penalties were the end all be all that you believe the market would have adjusted into the harsh death penalty mode rather than softening. Markets respond to what works for the consumer.
But if you really believe you can win with your ideas, why not start your own company and show everyone how wrong they are. If death penalties are so great you will become rich.
yes. I hate running back. I just hate it. Hate it. Just like I hate the debuff in LOTRO.
give me xp loss over running or that ridiculous debuff.
You see, I play these games to "play". I dont' find running back to my corpse fun. Nor do I find the debuff fun as it could mean I just go afk for 10 minutes until I'm effective again.
Anything that hampers play is not fun. Xp loss doesn't hamper play because I can just jump back into the game and play.
Running means I appear somwhere on the map and have to sit there and essentially do my little marathon before I can play again. Therefore tedious. Tedious is not fun.
Give me a monetary loss for death. THAT has meaning for me. That has sting.
So what? Dying isn't fun, obviously. But winning is.
But in a game without exp loss, neither are meaningful. You win, you dont care. You lose, you dont care.
I'd rather be happy and sad than apathetic all the time.
Oh, so you don't like running back, or exp loss? Lol. Good. Maybe you won't die as much when you play? Maybe there will be less level 60's
This thread reminded me why I quit WoW in the first place. I hated how you could have almost no fun without being a high level and I just didn't have the time to waste grinding all day and night, which is why I am against leveling in games in general. Unless games find a way to do it well, and the only one I have encountered which can is Global Agenda. But, back on topic, do you guys think its easier to put a death penalty in Level or Non-Level based games?
These types of death penalties, especially in PvP games are recipes for failure.
The net result is, a small core of early adopters, no-lifers and hardcore players quickly rise to the top and the rest of the players basically become their bitches. The bitches, who started later, don't have the time to play 10 hours per day, and/or don't spent insane amounts of time figuring out how to min/max the system, therefore do not enjoy the game and move on.
Games have tried this, and you can clearly see the end-result. So go play Darkfall, which is your last best hope for what you're angling for.
It sounds like you're in favor of exp loss upon death. In that case, I might as well copy and paste my response from another similar thread.
We can argue about this all we want, but I have a feeling that nostalgia is once again rearing its ugly head. "We" like harsh death penalties because the first MMOs had them, and, thus, they are familiar; they feel "right". This reasoning won't hold in a discussion, so we try to throw arguments like "it increases the risk factor!" and "why play a game if you don't want to be whipped and mutilated each time you die?" I believe it's called masochism to experience pleasure through pain; why fight so hard for harsh death penalties if they don't please us?
There needs to be repercussions, of course. In single-player RPGs, this is most likely a matter of reloading from the last save point, which can either be a very weak or a very harsh penalty, depending on how much progress you've lost. Single-player RPGs are not persistent worlds, so in an MMO, which is a persistent world, why should we also lose progress? This is why I'm against experience loss upon death most of all. I spent the last hour getting that level, and you can't hit pause and shift back the clock an hour just because a mob sneaked up on me and killed me while I was AFK for 2 minutes. That's how I feel, anyways.
Other death penalties which may be considered "harsh", like full-loot or heavy stat loss, I can deal with. Full-loot punishes you after your death economically because you have to recoup the items you lost. Stat loss punishes you performance-wise because you will struggle to play effectively. Of the two, I prefer economic loss. If the stat loss is not too harsh, i.e. it doesn't render you completely useless for X amount of time, then that's okay too. The point is, I want to play the game. If I can only play at 25% of my power for X amount of time, that sucks. I'd rather spend that time making money to replace my economic loss.
Like single-player games, economic loss is also scalable. If you only fly what you can afford to lose (anyone who plays the game knows this rule), your losses shouldn't be too harsh. However, if there's a lapse of judgment or unfortunate circumstances and you happen to lose a lot, that may cause you to curse and scream and RAAAAAGH I HATE THIS GAME, BUT I CAN'T STOP PLAYING! Similarly, if you saved 2 minutes before you died in a single-player RPG, you won't cry as much as if you had saved an hour ago.
With economic loss, there needs to be some insurance system so that people can feel it's at least semi-safe to bring their best equipment out to a fight. Either that, or it needs to be fairly easy to obtain that best equipment. In any case, you don't want noobs fighting with starter swords and underpants because they're afraid to lose their gear.
I'll admit, though, your reasoning was a bit different. You want to be #1 on the leaderboard, the best max-level player out there who can tackle all the super-elite content with your core group of second, third, and fourth best buddies. At least, that's how you sound to me.
In that case, I recommend a game like RuneScape where your dedication is rewarded by a leaderboard, though you'd have to work pretty hard and long to be #1. But you get out what you put in, right?
And, Sovrath, I agree with you, though I think exp loss is stupid.
yes. I hate running back. I just hate it. Hate it. Just like I hate the debuff in LOTRO.
give me xp loss over running or that ridiculous debuff.
You see, I play these games to "play". I dont' find running back to my corpse fun. Nor do I find the debuff fun as it could mean I just go afk for 10 minutes until I'm effective again.
Anything that hampers play is not fun. Xp loss doesn't hamper play because I can just jump back into the game and play.
Running means I appear somwhere on the map and have to sit there and essentially do my little marathon before I can play again. Therefore tedious. Tedious is not fun.
Give me a monetary loss for death. THAT has meaning for me. That has sting.
So what? Dying isn't fun, obviously. But winning is.
But in a game without exp loss, neither are meaningful. You win, you dont care. You lose, you dont care.
I'd rather be happy and sad than apathetic all the time.
Oh, so you don't like running back, or exp loss? Lol. Good. Maybe you won't die as much when you play? Maybe there will be less level 60's
Read again. I don't mind xp loss. I don't like running. I don't "love" xp loss but will take it any day over the running.
You want me to feel the sting? as I said. "monetary".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Time investment should be a part of MMORPGs. You don't feel attached to your character if you have nothing invested in it.
You act like having a death penalty means that people have to invest massive amounts of time too. No, it just means when you play you have to care about winning and losing. You can't die, and you will avoid it. How does that relate to playing 10 hours a day? It doesn't. People who play WoW had way more time than the people who played EQ.
It's not hardcore, no-lifers who want the death penalty. It's people who have played MMORPGs back when they were fun.
What are you even arguing for anyway? People who start later? How does this relate to a death penalty? It relates to a leveling system.
As I said, time investment is a good thing for MMORPGs. I really don't like MMORPGs that are basically handing out level 80s. The players who want to feel a sense of accomplishment will not play those games, because they're a number, and everythin in the game is free.
I think you are right. When I go out to play golf, I never feel satisfied until all opponents having higher par than me gets at least 1 finger cut off.
(I am typing this with 3 fingers I have left only)
But then they've won.
I get what you are saying, don't think I don't. You are saying that if someone losses something and enough of it eventually they will go.
But the thing is that won't make them go. If they keep coming back over and over again then that is about something else. Most reasonable people will see that you will waste them and they will find something better to do with their time. It's the mean, vindictive people who are essentially saying "if you can kill me then the least I can do is annoy you". It's not really in the spirit of the game but there it is.
But xp loss? I would just play it differnetly. I would come back 2 or 3 times. If I couldn't get you I would acknowledge that you are a superior force. So I would just get reinforcements and come back and wipe you. Of course you would do the same and eventually we would have a good ol' fashioned bar brawl. And that's fun.
But don't think xp loss is going to make me stop just because I can't get you. All that means is I need a larger army.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree about time commitment, except I think there is a limit were games have too much, like WoW, I believe it has too much of a time commitment there is a line were games require too much time, thats why I tend to stick to Sci-Fi games, because they tend to make it so it requires an average time commitment and they usually stay away from Levels along with adding death penalties. Its also why I quit fantasy MMOs
'hey boss, our income has gone through the roof, but this guy here wants to become famous and wants our game to filter out the bad guys. We should develop a system where the player who died has to start over.
So only the very good players will stay and that 90% others caled bad players wil quit it .
"You do realize that we lose 90% of our income and we can close the game ?""
"yeah, but then the Op of that post can be elite and play with others who are on the same level. C'mon boss, he wants to feel special, he may not be something IRL, at least he can be special in this game "
"okay, I had enough, so your advising me to choose between $$$ and a server where this fellow can feel special?
Okay, you're fired"
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I don't like death penalties because they were in my first MMORPG. I like them because they made the game more fun.
Your argument about DP's is off as well. No one said we enjoyed the Death Penalty. We said that it makes "not dying" more meaningful. I don't think anyone here has said dying is fun in games with a death penalty..
What does being #1 have to do with death penalties? I said that games like WoW hand out level 80's, and you're a number, and everything is given away for free, and leveling is not challenging. You can't be somebody when there are so many people with the same level, same stuff as you. Once they put in penalties, make leveling difficult, and limit server population, then people will be somebody on their server again.