Like I said, I just copied and pasted that response which was from another similar, though not exactly duplicate, thread on the subject.
Ignore the first and last parts and focus on the meat in the middle. Don't you agree that monetary/economic penalty is better than exp loss? That's why EVE does it right. You control (to an extent) how harsh the death penalty is.
Don't really play EVE, kind of hated that game actually...
Whether one is better than the other depends on the game. In some games $ is everything, in some exp is everything.
The thing is that in WoW, it wouldnt matter who I killed. If I kill someone at an exp spot they ARE going to come back and attack. That is how the PvP servers were in WoW. They weren't vindictive, they just wanted revenge and because they didn't lose anything they feel like they have to get even. and the rest...
you know, I've been thinking about the whole wow thing and it suddenly occured to me that WoW in the end is not trying to accomplish what a lot of "more hardcore" pvp'ers want.
The whole idea is for wow to be very accessible to anyone at all levels. This is not to say it doesn't get harder but essentially its misson statement is not about what you are arguing for.
I did hear that they somehow ruined world pvp, and I'm not clear about that, whether it was the battlegrounds or some other thing, however I think WoW was always about less penalties.
Since that is the case you can't really argue that it should have more becuase it never wanted that.
I would say that if they applied Wow's ideas to lineage 2 or shadowbane or darkfall or "pick your favorite hardcore pvp game" then I could see people getting upset.
Also, I would say that if they did lose something then they would want to get you "even MORE".
You are under the idea that if there was a harsher death penalty in wow then people would give up sooner rather than later. But in lineage 2 that never happend. People would get their whole alliance if you messed with them.
So essentialy a player will always come back to get you if they are not a complete pve player. I've know more pve players who just don't want to be bothered with the whole pvp thing.
Also, since I just realized that you are mostly talking about pvp instead of pve then I have to ammend my statement about wow's death penalty. In pve I generally turn the game off after about 2 or 3 deaths. So you are right, the death penatly in wow doesn't dissuade.
But I will tell you this, even if you added the same death penalty as L2 you would still have a fight on your hands, you would just be facing a larger group of people.
Which may or may not be a good thing depending on what you are looking for.
I'm surprised you don't play lineage 2.
I played EQ1, that was the best MMORPG out there, before all the expansion packs. Good integration of PVE and PVP. Lots of drama, etc.
Whether or not a player will come back depends on several factors. In EQ people generally didn't bring others with them if they died, they just tried to recover.
Why? Because if they came back with others and lost, they might get corpse camped. They might have to wait several hours to recover.
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Like I said, I just copied and pasted that response which was from another similar, though not exactly duplicate, thread on the subject.
Ignore the first and last parts and focus on the meat in the middle. Don't you agree that monetary/economic penalty is better than exp loss? That's why EVE does it right. You control (to an extent) how harsh the death penalty is.
Don't really play EVE, kind of hated that game actually...
Whether one is better than the other depends on the game. In some games $ is everything, in some exp is everything.
Thats true, and that is one reason why I prefer EVE.
Again, do not blame people for not accepting your invalid and flawed arguments. The loser does not need to suffer a damage in order to make someone else victorious. The truth is, you can lose just simply by failing without any loss.
Loss is optional, nothing as needed.
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Once again, Sovrath is the voice of reason. Many of us posters who disagree with you OP understand what you are saying. What we are telling you is that what 'you' seem to require for a death penalty is not what we do. Nor it is necessary to have the type of harsher DP you prefer in all MMOs. It sounds like it is necessary for you to enjoy the MMO, but that does not make it true for all MMOs. All you have to accept is that your way is not the only correct way for MMOs.
I don't need any kind of death penalty whatsoever. I hate dying. HAAAATE it. I don't need a harsher dp to remind me to play smarter and not die. Really. It's not a requirement for all.
Again, do not blame people for not accepting your invalid and flawed arguments. The loser does not need to suffer a damage in order to make someone else victorious. The truth is, you can lose just simply by failing without any loss.
Loss is optional, nothing as needed.
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Once again, Sovrath is the voice of reason. Many of us posters who disagree with you OP understand what you are saying. What we are telling you is that what 'you' seem to require for a death penalty is not what we do. Nor it is necessary to have the type of harsher DP you prefer in all MMOs. It sounds like it is necessary for you to enjoy the MMO, but that does not make it true for all MMOs. All you have to accept is that your way is not the only correct way for MMOs.
I don't need any kind of death penalty whatsoever. I hate dying. HAAAATE it. I don't need a harsher dp to remind me to play smarter and not die. Really. It's not a requirement for all.
Even if you hate dying already, that doesn't mean that you fear dying. You need to have fear. It makes all encounters that much more exciting.
It will always be in the back of your mind, that you can die and lose serious experience.. Whenever you travel, you will be extremely cautious and afraid.
I have a lot of memories of EQ, even exploring zones. I think the only reason I remember that is because of how scary it was. I remember going through Frontier Mountains, the giant fort, that dragon zone next to The Overthere. I remember running to thurgadin from North Ro. A couple hour trip, could've died anywhere along the way.. I remember the whole trip, trying to avoid high level NPCs along the way so I didn't die and could bind in a town. I would've lost a lot of time and exp if I died.
I remember so much about EQ, and I only attribute it to the kind of losses and dangers that were associated with it.
But in WoW, I don't have any interesting memories of that game.. Leveling was a boring grind with no challenge at all. What is there to remember in a meaningless game with no risk or fun?
Again, do not blame people for not accepting your invalid and flawed arguments. The loser does not need to suffer a damage in order to make someone else victorious. The truth is, you can lose just simply by failing without any loss.
Loss is optional, nothing as needed.
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Once again, Sovrath is the voice of reason. Many of us posters who disagree with you OP understand what you are saying. What we are telling you is that what 'you' seem to require for a death penalty is not what we do. Nor it is necessary to have the type of harsher DP you prefer in all MMOs. It sounds like it is necessary for you to enjoy the MMO, but that does not make it true for all MMOs. All you have to accept is that your way is not the only correct way for MMOs.
I don't need any kind of death penalty whatsoever. I hate dying. HAAAATE it. I don't need a harsher dp to remind me to play smarter and not die. Really. It's not a requirement for all.
Even if you hate dying already, that doesn't mean that you fear dying. You need to have fear. It makes all encounters that much more exciting.
It will always be in the back of your mind, that you can die and lose serious experience.. Whenever you travel, you will be extremely cautious and afraid.
I have a lot of memories of EQ, even exploring zones. I think the only reason I remember that is because of how scary it was. I remember going through Frontier Mountains, the giant fort, that dragon zone next to The Overthere. I remember running to thurgadin from North Ro. A couple hour trip, could've died anywhere along the way.. I remember the whole trip, trying to avoid high level NPCs along the way so I didn't die and could bind in a town. I would've lost a lot of time and exp if I died.
I remember so much about EQ, and I only attribute it to the kind of losses and dangers that were associated with it.
But in WoW, I don't have any interesting memories of that game.. Leveling was a boring grind with no challenge at all. What is there to remember in a meaningless game with no risk or fun?
No. Again, it's you who need that fear. I don't need it. I despise dying enough already. Making the penalty much worse just means I won't enjoy the game and won't play (or pay). What you need from an MMO is not a requirement for all MMOs. That's all I'm saying.
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
Sure you spawn with say 60% health and mana, but that is still a lot. They can't see you when you are in ghost form, but you can see them.
Do you think the person who killed you is gonna sit there watching your body, when they don't even know if you are online or not? No. They will go back to getting exp. Then when they have NPCs on them, you take your res and attack, so they have no chance of winning.
Ghost form is stupid and only belongs in those carebear MMORPGs. Once they put ghost form in like they did in WoW, they pretty much ruin any World PvP over exp spots. No one participates because of ghost form. If they ran back without gear, you wouldn't see so many people who die and just come back to annoy you, because you would actually be able to stop them from grabbing their gear if you wanted.
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
Sure you spawn with say 60% health and mana, but that is still a lot. They can't see you when you are in ghost form, but you can see them.
Do you think the person who killed you is gonna sit there watching your body, when they don't even know if you are online or not? No. They will go back to getting exp. Then when they have NPCs on them, you take your res and attack, so they have no chance of winning.
Ghost form is stupid and only belongs in those carebear MMORPGs. Once they put ghost form in like they did in WoW, they pretty much ruin any World PvP over exp spots. No one participates because of ghost form. If they ran back without gear, you wouldn't see so many people who die and just come back to annoy you, because you would actually be able to stop them from grabbing their gear if you wanted.
The vision range in ghost form is very limited. You need to be pretty close to your corpse to be able to see anything other than the landscape. So, if some idiot is dumb enough to start fighting NPC next to a corpse they just kill, well they deserve to die. If anything, ghost form actually encourage more PvP since the dead place have a Tiny chance of fighting back instead of Zero.
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
Sure you spawn with say 60% health and mana, but that is still a lot. They can't see you when you are in ghost form, but you can see them.
Do you think the person who killed you is gonna sit there watching your body, when they don't even know if you are online or not? No. They will go back to getting exp. Then when they have NPCs on them, you take your res and attack, so they have no chance of winning.
Ghost form is stupid and only belongs in those carebear MMORPGs. Once they put ghost form in like they did in WoW, they pretty much ruin any World PvP over exp spots. No one participates because of ghost form. If they ran back without gear, you wouldn't see so many people who die and just come back to annoy you, because you would actually be able to stop them from grabbing their gear if you wanted.
The vision range in ghost form is very limited. You need to be pretty close to your corpse to be able to see anything other than the landscape. So, if some idiot is dumb enough to start fighting NPC next to a corpse they just kill, well they deserve to die. If anything, ghost form actually encourage more PvP since the dead place have a Tiny chance of fighting back instead of Zero.
No, it's not that limited. They can be pretty far away and you can still see them.
Lol, encourages PvP. Did you even play a PvP server? PvP over exp spots never happened. It just ended up slowing both characters down because the person you killed would just annoy you. So people just refrained from it altogether.
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
No, because if I'm in the game for the pvp then I am more prone to play a pvp game.
Thanks for the answers.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
No, because if I'm in the game for the pvp then I am more prone to play a pvp game.
Thanks for the answers.
EQ had the best PvP, yet did not market itself as a PvP game.
Companies that try to sell their game as PvP tend to produce shitty games. Why? Because their game ends up being "PvP all day for no reason" and that ends up becoming boring.
Good PvP MMORPGs center around PvE and PvE causes guilds/players to fight each other. They don't need gearshops, or retarded scenarios to get players to engage in PvP. That just produces boring games.
Conflict over limited resources is what creates the best PvP systems.
No, because if I'm in the game for the pvp then I am more prone to play a pvp game.
Thanks for the answers.
EQ had the best PvP, yet did not market itself as a PvP game.
Companies that try to sell their game as PvP tend to produce shitty games. Why? Because their game ends up being "PvP all day for no reason" and that ends up becoming boring.
Good PvP MMORPGs center around PvE and PvE causes guilds/players to fight each other. They don't need gearshops, or retarded scenarios to get players to engage in PvP. That just produces boring games.
Conflict over limited resources is what creates the best PvP systems.
Well, that is probably why I think Lineage 2 is one of the best pvp games out there today. At least for the type of pvp it offers.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.
Yeah, like WoW. God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.
If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT. Sigh
Only death penalty worth caring about is permanent death. Anything else is useless.
We already have a Pearadeath penalty.... it's called LIFE.... were talking about MMO's
I've heard many people spout of with one liners saying ooohhhh .... permadeath blah blah ... has anyone actualy come up with a functional model for a game like this that isn't some FPS or flash game ??? seriously is there a permadeath fantasy mmo out there somewhere, or an organized ideah for one thats not some crap indie piece of garbage?
<not that all indie games are garbage, just the majority>
I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.
Yeah, like WoW. God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.
If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT. Sigh
Only death penalty worth caring about is permanent death. Anything else is useless.
We already have a Pearadeath penalty.... it's called LIFE.... were talking about MMO's
I've heard many people spout of with one liners saying ooohhhh .... permadeath blah blah ... has anyone actualy come up with a functional model for a game like this that isn't some FPS or flash game ??? seriously is there a permadeath fantasy mmo out there somewhere, or an organized ideah for one thats not some crap indie piece of garbage?
<not that all indie games are garbage, just the majority>
Yeah well not to many would play a PvP game if they knew they would loose their avatar and all their work.
I considered just having a server for those that really want hardcore.
It be interesting to watch the war. because it will end.
The vision range in ghost form is very limited. You need to be pretty close to your corpse to be able to see anything other than the landscape. So, if some idiot is dumb enough to start fighting NPC next to a corpse they just kill, well they deserve to die. If anything, ghost form actually encourage more PvP since the dead place have a Tiny chance of fighting back instead of Zero.
No, it's not that limited. They can be pretty far away and you can still see them.
Lol, encourages PvP. Did you even play a PvP server? PvP over exp spots never happened. It just ended up slowing both characters down because the person you killed would just annoy you. So people just refrained from it altogether.
The range is actually fairly short.
People in WoW do not generally PvP over 'exp spots' because WoW really does not have those. Most areas are really good for getting xp if you are just grinding so people see no reason to 'compete' for them.
Comments
That post made the most sence out of all of these
Like I said, I just copied and pasted that response which was from another similar, though not exactly duplicate, thread on the subject.
Ignore the first and last parts and focus on the meat in the middle. Don't you agree that monetary/economic penalty is better than exp loss? That's why EVE does it right. You control (to an extent) how harsh the death penalty is.
Don't really play EVE, kind of hated that game actually...
Whether one is better than the other depends on the game. In some games $ is everything, in some exp is everything.
you know, I've been thinking about the whole wow thing and it suddenly occured to me that WoW in the end is not trying to accomplish what a lot of "more hardcore" pvp'ers want.
The whole idea is for wow to be very accessible to anyone at all levels. This is not to say it doesn't get harder but essentially its misson statement is not about what you are arguing for.
I did hear that they somehow ruined world pvp, and I'm not clear about that, whether it was the battlegrounds or some other thing, however I think WoW was always about less penalties.
Since that is the case you can't really argue that it should have more becuase it never wanted that.
I would say that if they applied Wow's ideas to lineage 2 or shadowbane or darkfall or "pick your favorite hardcore pvp game" then I could see people getting upset.
Also, I would say that if they did lose something then they would want to get you "even MORE".
You are under the idea that if there was a harsher death penalty in wow then people would give up sooner rather than later. But in lineage 2 that never happend. People would get their whole alliance if you messed with them.
So essentialy a player will always come back to get you if they are not a complete pve player. I've know more pve players who just don't want to be bothered with the whole pvp thing.
Also, since I just realized that you are mostly talking about pvp instead of pve then I have to ammend my statement about wow's death penalty. In pve I generally turn the game off after about 2 or 3 deaths. So you are right, the death penatly in wow doesn't dissuade.
But I will tell you this, even if you added the same death penalty as L2 you would still have a fight on your hands, you would just be facing a larger group of people.
Which may or may not be a good thing depending on what you are looking for.
I'm surprised you don't play lineage 2.
I played EQ1, that was the best MMORPG out there, before all the expansion packs. Good integration of PVE and PVP. Lots of drama, etc.
Whether or not a player will come back depends on several factors. In EQ people generally didn't bring others with them if they died, they just tried to recover.
Why? Because if they came back with others and lost, they might get corpse camped. They might have to wait several hours to recover.
The problem with WoW is: no exp penalty, ghost form. Even if they had the exp loss, ghost form would give them a large enough incentive to try and take you out when you are weak.. Since Blizzard gave them protection after dying for some reason, which makes no sense at all...
If you lose a PvP battle, you should lose. Why put things in the game that will let the losing player annoy the player who won? They only discourage PvP by doing that.
Like I said, I just copied and pasted that response which was from another similar, though not exactly duplicate, thread on the subject.
Ignore the first and last parts and focus on the meat in the middle. Don't you agree that monetary/economic penalty is better than exp loss? That's why EVE does it right. You control (to an extent) how harsh the death penalty is.
Don't really play EVE, kind of hated that game actually...
Whether one is better than the other depends on the game. In some games $ is everything, in some exp is everything.
Thats true, and that is one reason why I prefer EVE.
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Once again, Sovrath is the voice of reason. Many of us posters who disagree with you OP understand what you are saying. What we are telling you is that what 'you' seem to require for a death penalty is not what we do. Nor it is necessary to have the type of harsher DP you prefer in all MMOs. It sounds like it is necessary for you to enjoy the MMO, but that does not make it true for all MMOs. All you have to accept is that your way is not the only correct way for MMOs.
I don't need any kind of death penalty whatsoever. I hate dying. HAAAATE it. I don't need a harsher dp to remind me to play smarter and not die. Really. It's not a requirement for all.
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Once again, Sovrath is the voice of reason. Many of us posters who disagree with you OP understand what you are saying. What we are telling you is that what 'you' seem to require for a death penalty is not what we do. Nor it is necessary to have the type of harsher DP you prefer in all MMOs. It sounds like it is necessary for you to enjoy the MMO, but that does not make it true for all MMOs. All you have to accept is that your way is not the only correct way for MMOs.
I don't need any kind of death penalty whatsoever. I hate dying. HAAAATE it. I don't need a harsher dp to remind me to play smarter and not die. Really. It's not a requirement for all.
Even if you hate dying already, that doesn't mean that you fear dying. You need to have fear. It makes all encounters that much more exciting.
It will always be in the back of your mind, that you can die and lose serious experience.. Whenever you travel, you will be extremely cautious and afraid.
I have a lot of memories of EQ, even exploring zones. I think the only reason I remember that is because of how scary it was. I remember going through Frontier Mountains, the giant fort, that dragon zone next to The Overthere. I remember running to thurgadin from North Ro. A couple hour trip, could've died anywhere along the way.. I remember the whole trip, trying to avoid high level NPCs along the way so I didn't die and could bind in a town. I would've lost a lot of time and exp if I died.
I remember so much about EQ, and I only attribute it to the kind of losses and dangers that were associated with it.
But in WoW, I don't have any interesting memories of that game.. Leveling was a boring grind with no challenge at all. What is there to remember in a meaningless game with no risk or fun?
They need to lose something significant..
It's not that the fact that you won that made you feel good. It's the fact that you didn't die, and didn't lose what you were afraid of losing.
Now, that other guy can get a rez or something, but he won't fully recover. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sure you feel bad for the other guy, or maybe you are happy about it if you really didn't like them. Either way, it is better than PvP where you don't feel anything (like games without Death Penalties)
um, no.
Losing is significant. However, it seems that people are arguing a very subjective point of view. H.Froglock, you might not have any issue with losing for losing sake but I can assure you that there are people, myself included who actually value the idea of winning/losing for its own sake. The sting of failure is actually very palpable for them as a concept. So is the joy of winning for its own sake.
I realize this might be a difficult thing to grasp for a person who likes to "up the stakes" but take into account that just the idea of winning or losing can actually have value unto itself without anything else attached.
What you are saying is that these concepts don't ring for you. But that is "you".
Just becasue you don't value it doesn't make it any less real.
Once again, Sovrath is the voice of reason. Many of us posters who disagree with you OP understand what you are saying. What we are telling you is that what 'you' seem to require for a death penalty is not what we do. Nor it is necessary to have the type of harsher DP you prefer in all MMOs. It sounds like it is necessary for you to enjoy the MMO, but that does not make it true for all MMOs. All you have to accept is that your way is not the only correct way for MMOs.
I don't need any kind of death penalty whatsoever. I hate dying. HAAAATE it. I don't need a harsher dp to remind me to play smarter and not die. Really. It's not a requirement for all.
Even if you hate dying already, that doesn't mean that you fear dying. You need to have fear. It makes all encounters that much more exciting.
It will always be in the back of your mind, that you can die and lose serious experience.. Whenever you travel, you will be extremely cautious and afraid.
I have a lot of memories of EQ, even exploring zones. I think the only reason I remember that is because of how scary it was. I remember going through Frontier Mountains, the giant fort, that dragon zone next to The Overthere. I remember running to thurgadin from North Ro. A couple hour trip, could've died anywhere along the way.. I remember the whole trip, trying to avoid high level NPCs along the way so I didn't die and could bind in a town. I would've lost a lot of time and exp if I died.
I remember so much about EQ, and I only attribute it to the kind of losses and dangers that were associated with it.
But in WoW, I don't have any interesting memories of that game.. Leveling was a boring grind with no challenge at all. What is there to remember in a meaningless game with no risk or fun?
No. Again, it's you who need that fear. I don't need it. I despise dying enough already. Making the penalty much worse just means I won't enjoy the game and won't play (or pay). What you need from an MMO is not a requirement for all MMOs. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, like WoW. God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.
If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT. Sigh
Only death penalty worth caring about is permanent death. Anything else is useless.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
Sure you spawn with say 60% health and mana, but that is still a lot. They can't see you when you are in ghost form, but you can see them.
Do you think the person who killed you is gonna sit there watching your body, when they don't even know if you are online or not? No. They will go back to getting exp. Then when they have NPCs on them, you take your res and attack, so they have no chance of winning.
Ghost form is stupid and only belongs in those carebear MMORPGs. Once they put ghost form in like they did in WoW, they pretty much ruin any World PvP over exp spots. No one participates because of ghost form. If they ran back without gear, you wouldn't see so many people who die and just come back to annoy you, because you would actually be able to stop them from grabbing their gear if you wanted.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
Sure you spawn with say 60% health and mana, but that is still a lot. They can't see you when you are in ghost form, but you can see them.
Do you think the person who killed you is gonna sit there watching your body, when they don't even know if you are online or not? No. They will go back to getting exp. Then when they have NPCs on them, you take your res and attack, so they have no chance of winning.
Ghost form is stupid and only belongs in those carebear MMORPGs. Once they put ghost form in like they did in WoW, they pretty much ruin any World PvP over exp spots. No one participates because of ghost form. If they ran back without gear, you wouldn't see so many people who die and just come back to annoy you, because you would actually be able to stop them from grabbing their gear if you wanted.
The vision range in ghost form is very limited. You need to be pretty close to your corpse to be able to see anything other than the landscape. So, if some idiot is dumb enough to start fighting NPC next to a corpse they just kill, well they deserve to die. If anything, ghost form actually encourage more PvP since the dead place have a Tiny chance of fighting back instead of Zero.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
Sure you spawn with say 60% health and mana, but that is still a lot. They can't see you when you are in ghost form, but you can see them.
Do you think the person who killed you is gonna sit there watching your body, when they don't even know if you are online or not? No. They will go back to getting exp. Then when they have NPCs on them, you take your res and attack, so they have no chance of winning.
Ghost form is stupid and only belongs in those carebear MMORPGs. Once they put ghost form in like they did in WoW, they pretty much ruin any World PvP over exp spots. No one participates because of ghost form. If they ran back without gear, you wouldn't see so many people who die and just come back to annoy you, because you would actually be able to stop them from grabbing their gear if you wanted.
The vision range in ghost form is very limited. You need to be pretty close to your corpse to be able to see anything other than the landscape. So, if some idiot is dumb enough to start fighting NPC next to a corpse they just kill, well they deserve to die. If anything, ghost form actually encourage more PvP since the dead place have a Tiny chance of fighting back instead of Zero.
No, it's not that limited. They can be pretty far away and you can still see them.
Lol, encourages PvP. Did you even play a PvP server? PvP over exp spots never happened. It just ended up slowing both characters down because the person you killed would just annoy you. So people just refrained from it altogether.
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
No, because if I'm in the game for the pvp then I am more prone to play a pvp game.
Thanks for the answers.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Here's a question. I'm not clear as to what you are talking about with "ghost form" unless you are talking about when you die you go to the shadow world (or pick your adjective) and essentially are a ghost that can run back to your corpse.
Other than that, is there some sort of added protection in ghost form that allows you to do anything other than run back unhindered?
I seem to remember that when I reclaimed my body I would suddenly come alive but I would also have my buffs gone and have less health.
It would seem to me that even if I wanted to annoy you, you could easily pick me off in that state. Unless of course there is something else?
Wow, have you ever played a PvP server?
No, because if I'm in the game for the pvp then I am more prone to play a pvp game.
Thanks for the answers.
EQ had the best PvP, yet did not market itself as a PvP game.
Companies that try to sell their game as PvP tend to produce shitty games. Why? Because their game ends up being "PvP all day for no reason" and that ends up becoming boring.
Good PvP MMORPGs center around PvE and PvE causes guilds/players to fight each other. They don't need gearshops, or retarded scenarios to get players to engage in PvP. That just produces boring games.
Conflict over limited resources is what creates the best PvP systems.
No, because if I'm in the game for the pvp then I am more prone to play a pvp game.
Thanks for the answers.
EQ had the best PvP, yet did not market itself as a PvP game.
Companies that try to sell their game as PvP tend to produce shitty games. Why? Because their game ends up being "PvP all day for no reason" and that ends up becoming boring.
Good PvP MMORPGs center around PvE and PvE causes guilds/players to fight each other. They don't need gearshops, or retarded scenarios to get players to engage in PvP. That just produces boring games.
Conflict over limited resources is what creates the best PvP systems.
Well, that is probably why I think Lineage 2 is one of the best pvp games out there today. At least for the type of pvp it offers.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yeah, like WoW. God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.
If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT. Sigh
Only death penalty worth caring about is permanent death. Anything else is useless.
We already have a Pearadeath penalty.... it's called LIFE.... were talking about MMO's
I've heard many people spout of with one liners saying ooohhhh .... permadeath blah blah ... has anyone actualy come up with a functional model for a game like this that isn't some FPS or flash game ??? seriously is there a permadeath fantasy mmo out there somewhere, or an organized ideah for one thats not some crap indie piece of garbage?
<not that all indie games are garbage, just the majority>
BoB
Yeah, like WoW. God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.
If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT. Sigh
Only death penalty worth caring about is permanent death. Anything else is useless.
We already have a Pearadeath penalty.... it's called LIFE.... were talking about MMO's
I've heard many people spout of with one liners saying ooohhhh .... permadeath blah blah ... has anyone actualy come up with a functional model for a game like this that isn't some FPS or flash game ??? seriously is there a permadeath fantasy mmo out there somewhere, or an organized ideah for one thats not some crap indie piece of garbage?
<not that all indie games are garbage, just the majority>
Yeah well not to many would play a PvP game if they knew they would loose their avatar and all their work.
I considered just having a server for those that really want hardcore.
It be interesting to watch the war. because it will end.
no doubt..
No, it's not that limited. They can be pretty far away and you can still see them.
Lol, encourages PvP. Did you even play a PvP server? PvP over exp spots never happened. It just ended up slowing both characters down because the person you killed would just annoy you. So people just refrained from it altogether.
The range is actually fairly short.
People in WoW do not generally PvP over 'exp spots' because WoW really does not have those. Most areas are really good for getting xp if you are just grinding so people see no reason to 'compete' for them.