We had a deaf tank in vanilla WoW for about 18 months.
He was main tank on every Molten Core/Blackwing Lair boss kill and was a pretty solid player. Everything after Gehennas was a server first, and we didn't use any voice chat back then .. we just wiped 'til we got the strategy down.
So yeah, this is 100% a case of other players being elitist eejits.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Again I think most of you are missing the point.. Let me see if I can use a better example of what I'm trying to discuss here.. We are all well aware of the use of steroids in baseball in recent decade. Because of this we saw the HR record beaten many times over and HR traveling further into the stands. It's no secret that the use of steroids makes hitting a baseball easier.. FACT. Lets assume that performace enhancing drugs become legal. With everyone using them, HR's start to become common and in turn the league combats that with extending the fence an extra 50 feet.
A year later new players wanting in on the action are told to "dope" up or move out.. Would this be a community problem or a league problem or BOTH.. By extending the fence back 50 feet so that duped up players have a harder time hitting HR, they made it very difficult for those that unable or refuse to dupe to play on a team.. Lets be realistic here. yes a player could keep trying to get on a team, but we all know that chances would be rare..
This is the best example I can give ya'll.. The use of audio programs, and addons are performace enhancing in the game. The devs know this and in turn have beefed up the encounters so that winning isn't a cake walk.. Games like WoW were never designed for audio play, but over the years have evolved into exactly that.. Many may go into the state of denial, howver if the use of audio chat and addons were removed from these games, the results would cause a riot on how unfair the raids are.
IMO as well as many of my friends agreed that raids should not be designed with the use of 3rd party addons, and audio shouldn't be given consideration...
Originally posted by pyrofreak I've actually played with a few deaf folks, in raiding and EVE pvp. In both cases, it wasn't exactly a detriment, and often someone who was an extremely fast typer, or maybe had a low priority job, would type out pertinent orders in the appropriate channel.
As such, I feel that this is a community issue, and most games are, at a basic level, extremely deaf friendly. Quest and missions are given in text, although there might be some flavor voice added. From a developer perspective, there is really very little more that can be done to increase the abilities of the hearing impaired to participate fully. There are many raiding guilds/pvp guilds that don't require voice communication, and those that do (unless they're extreme dickheads) can generally find a way to accomodate the needs of essentially anyone.
Of course, there is the possibility that guilds think a player just hate VOIP and is faking a disability.
Agrees with pyrofreak and have had the same experiences.
Also as to the OP's design question, what games are actually harder to play without audio?
Darkfall and Ryzom, yes, hearing people/mobs sneak up on you.
Can't think of others.
I often turn off sound when playing since I have sound->sight synesthesia and sounds can be distracting to me, so I feel I'm a little sensitive to this. Probably one of the few people that really always reads my system tabs.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Actually all mmo's have plenty of content that does not require vent. For you to ask that there be NO content that does require vent seems a bit selfish to me. Raids are harder because raiding guilds want harder content. But there are casual guilds that just do the easy content, and they do not require vent.
Again I think most of you are missing the point.. Let me see if I can use a better example of what I'm trying to discuss here.. We are all well aware of the use of steroids in baseball in recent decade. Because of this we saw the HR record beaten many times over and HR traveling further into the stands. It's no secret that the use of steroids makes hitting a baseball easier.. FACT. Lets assume that performace enhancing drugs become legal. With everyone using them, HR's start to become common and in turn the league combats that with extending the fence an extra 50 feet.
A year later new players wanting in on the action are told to "dope" up or move out.. Would this be a community problem or a league problem or BOTH.. By extending the fence back 50 feet so that duped up players have a harder time hitting HR, they made it very difficult for those that unable or refuse to dupe to play on a team.. Lets be realistic here. yes a player could keep trying to get on a team, but we all know that chances would be rare..
This is the best example I can give ya'll.. The use of audio programs, and addons are performace enhancing in the game. The devs know this and in turn have beefed up the encounters so that winning isn't a cake walk.. Games like WoW were never designed for audio play, but over the years have evolved into exactly that.. Many may go into the state of denial, howver if the use of audio chat and addons were removed from these games, the results would cause a riot on how unfair the raids are.
IMO as well as many of my friends agreed that raids should not be designed with the use of 3rd party addons, and audio shouldn't be given consideration...
I think the reason that no one is addressing the point you raise is because it is largely a non-issue. When it comes to content design accounting for VOIP is completely trumped by other factors such as the desire of developers to make raid encounters accessible to a wider audience. As a general rule content is getting easier and easier to complete without VOIP, not harder as you suggest.
The other thing is that most raid encounters are simply a matter of executing a pre-planned strategy. There are very few that require on the fly tactical changes as a matter of course so VOIP is more of a convenience than a necessity. If it came down to it macroed commands would serve just aswell or even old-fashioned typing if necessary.
Perhaps if you could name a few encounters that are unfair because they absolutely require VOIP it would be easier for people to get their teeth into the topic you want to discuss. At the moment I think most people see guild discrimination as the issue rather than the content itself.
The number one reason I stay or leave a game is whether the community demands voice chat or not.
Personally, I don't want tohave to talk to strangers online just to do content. Never had to before, and frankly, the games are so simple now I don't really see the point.
I think it's also unfair for people who can't play without voice to be forced to type simply because some won't consent to wear a headset...about as unfair as it is to demand that everybody puts a headset in their ears.
However, the solution to this problem is just so simple, I'm surprised someone hasn't done it yet.
Reserve some servers for vent-only users, some for teamspeak only users, and some for text only. That way, everybody can game with people who use their voice preference.
It looks like most people missed my whole point of my post.. I guess I"ll take blame for that, and not imply we have reading comprehension problems.. anyways.. Beat, that is about as close to a solution as one can get, except that boss fights would have to be nerfed since the audio advantage is not present anymore. I saw many responses saying they have no problem playing with a deaf person and this is a community issue. This was not the point of this post. Lets rephrase this, would you continue to do raids if they were designed the old fashion way of no audio chat whatsoever.. period.. This means all 25 or 40 people turn their vents, teamspeak, etc OFF I think we all know the answer to this, and how most would respond.
The simple fact is that raiding over the years has become easier with the use of audio chat and 3rd party addons. Due to this, the devs tweaked their boss fights to make them harder to compensate. Take away your healbots, your dps macros, etc and see how well your raid performs The amount of wipes and failures would increase 2,000% and the outcry by the player base would be astronomical.
In anycase, this is not only a community issue, but a developer one as well.. It's their playground and if they design the playground to entice and allow misbehavior, then I hold them equal at fault Simple example would be a 9 year old playing football in the yard w/ porch light at 11pm. The child gets hurt because of poor vision. Who's fault is it?
This just in! Not all MMOs ship with voice chat, and not all games are raid heavy. In fact, there are SEVERAL games that have voice chat where voice chat is not widely used. Of cousre, you would have to step outside of WoW to know this information including reading some MMORPG articles, reviews, and threads that are not WoW centric.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
The existing games are fine. They do not need to altered to become accessible to deaf people. It doesn't really take much more to play without voice chat. You only need people who are willing to prepare a few extra minutes before the raid. I was in a very successful EQ raiding guild for many years. We never used voice chat. Using text chat only is a very good way to separate out the retards.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Ebonfly above has nailed this. At least why you are not getting the debate OP that you wanted.
You start it in your introductory paragraph with reference to discrimination against deaf people in wow, which means that many of us, me included, go to WOW forums to see what's up. That's your first paragraph btw, that is your thesis statement, your raison detre for this post, at least compositionally. Your opening is all about the question of "would you" refuse a deaf player in your guild (?) and NOT an issue over whether ventrilo in games is equivalent to using steroids as you later claim. Learn to write a proper essay before accusing the rest of us of not "getting it".
Anyone with a brain knows this is about the asshole element of our community discriminating against deaf people. That's where this debate - according to your original reference to WOW forums - begins and ends.
You want a different debate on whether we should have ventrillo or not? Then write one up as you didn't do it this time.
I ask this question because of a post I read on the World of Warcraft forums. A gamer who wanted to get into raiding was repeatively turned away by guilds because of his disability. Reason was because they require voice/audio participation while raiding. As much as this makes raiding easier, was it the right thing to do? Would you refuse to play ball with a deaf person because of increased communication issues? I wouldn't, but then that's me..
Where I'm going here is that back before there was the mass ability of raid chat, more raids were done with the use of text only.. I remember my days back in EQ and we only had text chat. Since those days audio chat has become common and widespread.. With this and the addition of automated addons, raiding has become easier and easier.. In my opinion, since audio chat made raids twice as easy to finish, the devs turned about and made the boss encounters twice as hard.. The problem here is that Devs are now designing and tailoring boss encounters with the use of audio chat. Is this the right thing to do?
In my opinion, all encounters in a game should be designed without the influence of 3rd party programs, such as vent, teamspeak, etc or even addons.. I also believe that it's completely irresponsible for devs to ignore the needs of the deaf, or other physical issues. Lets have some compassion and not ignore gamers that are deaf because people thought it was the easier road to take.. If the use of Ventrilo makes a boss fight easier.. so be it.. lets not make boss fights so hard that it's almost impossible to beat without the use of audion chat.. Shame on you devs
You are my hero! As someone who has a strong hearing impairment myself I can tell you that today's MMOs are a bane! So often when you say you can't participate in Vent or TS, you are right send away. Many guilds are so focussed on TS now that the normal chat is almost silent, and people with hearing impairment are totally left in the rain.
I don't blame the devs so much as the antisocial and not caring attitude of the gamers. Some people are just so inconsiderate and they are only focussed on themselves. I also think it does make people dumb. In the past gamers had to learn their role in a group or a raid and there was no TS. But now with TS many just don't learn their class and role because they seem to rely on TS commanding. A sad development.
It is my firm opinion MMOs should forbid TS or Vent usage the same way gold selling is forbidden.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It was nice to see that others such as yourself understood what I was discussing.. I left WoW for a number of reasons, the community being one of them.. I wish MMO gaming went back to the old days when we had no VOIP, and developers didn't factor that in. Sad part is, as much as the anti-VOIP gamers express their views, it's the developers that become instant deafness to those concerns. How convenient and sad
Ebonfly above has nailed this. At least why you are not getting the debate OP that you wanted.
You start it in your introductory paragraph with reference to discrimination against deaf people in wow, which means that many of us, me included, go to WOW forums to see what's up. That's your first paragraph btw, that is your thesis statement, your raison detre for this post, at least compositionally. Your opening is all about the question of "would you" refuse a deaf player in your guild (?) and NOT an issue over whether ventrilo in games is equivalent to using steroids as you later claim. Learn to write a proper essay before accusing the rest of us of not "getting it".
Anyone with a brain knows this is about the asshole element of our community discriminating against deaf people. That's where this debate - according to your original reference to WOW forums - begins and ends.
You want a different debate on whether we should have ventrillo or not? Then write one up as you didn't do it this time.
Regards
Melmoth
ed for typo
You may want to read the title of the thread if you dont' understand the topic before attempting to insult people Have a great day
I work with the disabled all the time and see there limitations first hand.
This Terranah is why, if I knew you in the real world, I would never have you working with my children.
You sound like Mat Dillon in "There's Something About Mary" FFS. But yeh, you work with "them" so you are the expert.
Regards
Melmoth
ed for typo
I don't want to work with your children. I work with the critically ill adult populations. But have you ever tried to tell a person with ALS to stop being paralyzed and run around the unit or walk to the bathroom and not defecate on themselves. Wake up man and stop living in la la land. Disabailities are real. That's why they call them disabilities and not enhancements. I would hate to be your patient because you would let my lay in urine and feces insisting I have no limitations when I have a spinal cord injury at C7.
Ok, I may have come across as a wee bit harsh. Sorry.
But the title of your post is just the hook. It's your introduction that tells us what your issue for discussion is.
If you had been more clear in your first paragraph what this debate was about, then I am sure you woudln't have had to write two reply posts complaining that most folks weren't getting it.
Regards
Melmoth
Aargh, sorry I didn't quote. This was a response to the OP.
There was a sage man who taught to love thy neighbor and to have compassion with all in need. Apparently it is you who is deaf, and in way more disabling ways than those with physical impariments. What good is your hearing you are so pround of, when you do not listen? What difference does it make when you make yourself deaf to the words of others? I pity you for the dark harsh vision in which you have confined yourself.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I ask this question because of a post I read on the World of Warcraft forums. A gamer who wanted to get into raiding was repeatively turned away by guilds because of his disability. Reason was because they require voice/audio participation while raiding. As much as this makes raiding easier, was it the right thing to do? Would you refuse to play ball with a deaf person because of increased communication issues? I wouldn't, but then that's me..
Where I'm going here is that back before there was the mass ability of raid chat, more raids were done with the use of text only.. I remember my days back in EQ and we only had text chat. Since those days audio chat has become common and widespread.. With this and the addition of automated addons, raiding has become easier and easier.. In my opinion, since audio chat made raids twice as easy to finish, the devs turned about and made the boss encounters twice as hard.. The problem here is that Devs are now designing and tailoring boss encounters with the use of audio chat. Is this the right thing to do?
In my opinion, all encounters in a game should be designed without the influence of 3rd party programs, such as vent, teamspeak, etc or even addons.. I also believe that it's completely irresponsible for devs to ignore the needs of the deaf, or other physical issues. Lets have some compassion and not ignore gamers that are deaf because people thought it was the easier road to take.. If the use of Ventrilo makes a boss fight easier.. so be it.. lets not make boss fights so hard that it's almost impossible to beat without the use of audion chat.. Shame on you devs
Eh, I'd have some sympathy for the guy, but really. Why do you think Vent became so popular? Because it works. Because it's better than typing out some message when you're in the middle of a raid boss fight. In life, not everything is available to you. Even if you have a disability, sorry. Should Blizzard cater to the extreme minority when the majority uses Vent and other audio programs? No. The deaf guy can find other things to do.
There's a blind and deaf marching band that marched in a major parade (New Year's Day, maybe... I can't remember off the top of my head). Those blind and deaf people worked hard and did something no one thought they could do - instead of played WoW and complained when a guild turned him away because he was too much of a hassle. He could go try that if he really wanted to.
The encounters are designed around what the players are doing. If the players didn't use third party programs, then Blizzard wouldn't have to count those as a factor. But players do use them, and they'll never stop, so Blizzard has to balance around that. You can't keep using silly putty to fix a dam when the crack is ten times the size it used to be. It's really up to the guild, in the end. They decided (as sort of a private organization, if you will) that they won't allow this deaf guy because he can't use audio communication. It's their choice. The dude can find another guild or, like I suggested, do something better with his life.
Edit: I don't mind if developers have something like subtitles or captions for cutscenes, NPC talking, etc. Even non-critical stuff. Deaf people shouldn't have to miss out on that... but you're talking about WoW and Vent, so it's not quite the same. Maybe if Vent incorporated a speech-to-text mechanism? I don't know. You probably wouldn't be able to see it anyways because WoW is open.
Edit 2: I do not think voice chat makes raids easier. It makes communication easier, but communication in war has improved as well and that sure as hell hasn't gotten easier.
The number one reason I stay or leave a game is whether the community demands voice chat or not.
Personally, I don't want tohave to talk to strangers online just to do content. Never had to before, and frankly, the games are so simple now I don't really see the point.
I think it's also unfair for people who can't play without voice to be forced to type simply because some won't consent to wear a headset...about as unfair as it is to demand that everybody puts a headset in their ears.
However, the solution to this problem is just so simple, I'm surprised someone hasn't done it yet.
Reserve some servers for vent-only users, some for teamspeak only users, and some for text only. That way, everybody can game with people who use their voice preference.
It looks like most people missed my whole point of my post.. I guess I"ll take blame for that, and not imply we have reading comprehension problems.. anyways.. Beat, that is about as close to a solution as one can get, except that boss fights would have to be nerfed since the audio advantage is not present anymore. I saw many responses saying they have no problem playing with a deaf person and this is a community issue. This was not the point of this post. Lets rephrase this, would you continue to do raids if they were designed the old fashion way of no audio chat whatsoever.. period.. This means all 25 or 40 people turn their vents, teamspeak, etc OFF I think we all know the answer to this, and how most would respond.
The simple fact is that raiding over the years has become easier with the use of audio chat and 3rd party addons. Due to this, the devs tweaked their boss fights to make them harder to compensate. Take away your healbots, your dps macros, etc and see how well your raid performs The amount of wipes and failures would increase 2,000% and the outcry by the player base would be astronomical.
In anycase, this is not only a community issue, but a developer one as well.. It's their playground and if they design the playground to entice and allow misbehavior, then I hold them equal at fault Simple example would be a 9 year old playing football in the yard w/ porch light at 11pm. The child gets hurt because of poor vision. Who's fault is it?
Why would boss fights have to be nerfed?
I think the biggest misconception about voice chat is that it makes the game easier. I have a hard time believing that, since the essence of the game is still about taking visual cues from the screen and translating them into input commands on the interface. The games stressed and still stress player awareness not player communication.
Therefore, when players are aware, they don't need to hear from other folks to make them aware. Indeed, the game gives players everything they need so that they can do exactly what they should without relying on other players at all.
In fights against epic level NPCs in CoH, I/m surprised how very little people need to talk at all. That's because everybody simply knows what to do without being ordered to do it: people get healed, people get buffed, tanks tank, etc.
I do, however, think that voice chat is necessary for some that simply don't know how to play unless they are told what to do at every moment. I also think it's necessary for those who have trust issues or confidence issues. But I've played enough games in my time to understand that the games themselves don't require voice to play, communities within the games impose voice on as an extra requirement for reasons wholly unrelated to game mechanics.
So then, it seems to me only natural that the best game is to just declare some servers text only, some vent only, and some TS only. I mean, that way everyone gets to game with those who share their preferences, meet their needs, without any hard feelings.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I'm in disbelief at some of the responses I'm reading.. UNBELIEVABLE! I can't believe someone actually "hates" someone with a handicap because they are handicapped.. Tell me I didn't just read that?
There was a sage man who taught to love thy neighbor and to have compassion with all in need. Apparently it is you who is deaf, and in way more disabling ways than those with physical impariments. What good is your hearing you are so pround of, when you do not listen? What difference does it make when you make yourself deaf to the words of others? I pity you for the dark harsh vision in which you have confined yourself.
Don't even try to tell me Christianity is a bastion for morality and compassion. Do you know your history? Your current events?
All religions are the byproduct of hypocritical bastards and gullable fools. Sure, there may be the sorry saps who ACTUALLY believe and practice the message.
I am disability free and I am also a realist that sees the world for what it truly is, both the good and the bad side instead of blinding myself to the harsh realities and hoping a fairy tale will make things better.
I pity you for being so naive.
None of this means I am not a very happy person who is nice and polite and personable to everyone I meet, because I am. And you know what I sleep VERY well at night, never alone in my bed, even though I know when I die I'm going in the ground and that is it.
And I sleep just fine knowing the world is full of idiots and naive fools and religious nuts.
I'm in disbelief at some of the responses I'm reading.. UNBELIEVABLE! I can't believe someone actually "hates" someone with a handicap because they are handicapped.. Tell me I didn't just read that?
Hate was not a good word choice but annoying certainly was.
I feel pity for those who are less fortunate but doesn't mean they deserve any more then I deserve being a "normal" person.
I mean seriously.
When did it become so terrible and "evil" to be PROUD to be a normal, average, un-special person?
I'm in disbelief at some of the responses I'm reading.. UNBELIEVABLE! I can't believe someone actually "hates" someone with a handicap because they are handicapped.. Tell me I didn't just read that?
He "hates" someone with a handicap who has a massive self-entitlement issue. "I'm handicapped, CATER EVERYTHING TO MY NEEDS BITCH!" I think we'd all hate someone like that. If the disability is stopping him from eating, breathing, moving around, etc., then yes, we can fix that. But if the disability is stopping him from raiding, give me a break.
It's funny that I agree with heeroyba on the self-entitlement thing, but not on religion. Does that make me a hyprocrite or a realistic Christian? I don't know !
I'm in disbelief at some of the responses I'm reading.. UNBELIEVABLE! I can't believe someone actually "hates" someone with a handicap because they are handicapped.. Tell me I didn't just read that?
He "hates" someone with a handicap who has a massive self-entitlement issue. "I'm handicapped, CATER EVERYTHING TO MY NEEDS BITCH!" I think we'd all hate someone like that. If the disability is stopping him from eating, breathing, moving around, etc., then yes, we can fix that. But if the disability is stopping him from raiding, give me a break.
Comments
We had a deaf tank in vanilla WoW for about 18 months.
He was main tank on every Molten Core/Blackwing Lair boss kill and was a pretty solid player. Everything after Gehennas was a server first, and we didn't use any voice chat back then .. we just wiped 'til we got the strategy down.
So yeah, this is 100% a case of other players being elitist eejits.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Again I think most of you are missing the point.. Let me see if I can use a better example of what I'm trying to discuss here.. We are all well aware of the use of steroids in baseball in recent decade. Because of this we saw the HR record beaten many times over and HR traveling further into the stands. It's no secret that the use of steroids makes hitting a baseball easier.. FACT. Lets assume that performace enhancing drugs become legal. With everyone using them, HR's start to become common and in turn the league combats that with extending the fence an extra 50 feet.
A year later new players wanting in on the action are told to "dope" up or move out.. Would this be a community problem or a league problem or BOTH.. By extending the fence back 50 feet so that duped up players have a harder time hitting HR, they made it very difficult for those that unable or refuse to dupe to play on a team.. Lets be realistic here. yes a player could keep trying to get on a team, but we all know that chances would be rare..
This is the best example I can give ya'll.. The use of audio programs, and addons are performace enhancing in the game. The devs know this and in turn have beefed up the encounters so that winning isn't a cake walk.. Games like WoW were never designed for audio play, but over the years have evolved into exactly that.. Many may go into the state of denial, howver if the use of audio chat and addons were removed from these games, the results would cause a riot on how unfair the raids are.
IMO as well as many of my friends agreed that raids should not be designed with the use of 3rd party addons, and audio shouldn't be given consideration...
You're saying .. that games are getting more challenging?
That's rather a revolutionary statement for this forum.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Agrees with pyrofreak and have had the same experiences.
Also as to the OP's design question, what games are actually harder to play without audio?
Darkfall and Ryzom, yes, hearing people/mobs sneak up on you.
Can't think of others.
I often turn off sound when playing since I have sound->sight synesthesia and sounds can be distracting to me, so I feel I'm a little sensitive to this. Probably one of the few people that really always reads my system tabs.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Actually all mmo's have plenty of content that does not require vent. For you to ask that there be NO content that does require vent seems a bit selfish to me. Raids are harder because raiding guilds want harder content. But there are casual guilds that just do the easy content, and they do not require vent.
I think the reason that no one is addressing the point you raise is because it is largely a non-issue. When it comes to content design accounting for VOIP is completely trumped by other factors such as the desire of developers to make raid encounters accessible to a wider audience. As a general rule content is getting easier and easier to complete without VOIP, not harder as you suggest.
The other thing is that most raid encounters are simply a matter of executing a pre-planned strategy. There are very few that require on the fly tactical changes as a matter of course so VOIP is more of a convenience than a necessity. If it came down to it macroed commands would serve just aswell or even old-fashioned typing if necessary.
Perhaps if you could name a few encounters that are unfair because they absolutely require VOIP it would be easier for people to get their teeth into the topic you want to discuss. At the moment I think most people see guild discrimination as the issue rather than the content itself.
This just in! Not all MMOs ship with voice chat, and not all games are raid heavy. In fact, there are SEVERAL games that have voice chat where voice chat is not widely used. Of cousre, you would have to step outside of WoW to know this information including reading some MMORPG articles, reviews, and threads that are not WoW centric.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
The existing games are fine. They do not need to altered to become accessible to deaf people. It doesn't really take much more to play without voice chat. You only need people who are willing to prepare a few extra minutes before the raid. I was in a very successful EQ raiding guild for many years. We never used voice chat. Using text chat only is a very good way to separate out the retards.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Ebonfly above has nailed this. At least why you are not getting the debate OP that you wanted.
You start it in your introductory paragraph with reference to discrimination against deaf people in wow, which means that many of us, me included, go to WOW forums to see what's up. That's your first paragraph btw, that is your thesis statement, your raison detre for this post, at least compositionally. Your opening is all about the question of "would you" refuse a deaf player in your guild (?) and NOT an issue over whether ventrilo in games is equivalent to using steroids as you later claim. Learn to write a proper essay before accusing the rest of us of not "getting it".
Anyone with a brain knows this is about the asshole element of our community discriminating against deaf people. That's where this debate - according to your original reference to WOW forums - begins and ends.
You want a different debate on whether we should have ventrillo or not? Then write one up as you didn't do it this time.
Regards
Melmoth
ed for typo
Indeed, it's easily resolvable. I'd still say it's something with which I disagree as a mandatory requirement.
To me, it's just as dumb as requiring a particular addon. That said, if you don't perform, you maybe should use that addon.
This Terranah is why, if I knew you in the real world, I would never have you working with my children.
You sound like Mat Dillon in "There's Something About Mary" FFS. But yeh, you work with "them" so you are the expert.
Regards
Melmoth
ed for typo
You are my hero! As someone who has a strong hearing impairment myself I can tell you that today's MMOs are a bane! So often when you say you can't participate in Vent or TS, you are right send away. Many guilds are so focussed on TS now that the normal chat is almost silent, and people with hearing impairment are totally left in the rain.
I don't blame the devs so much as the antisocial and not caring attitude of the gamers. Some people are just so inconsiderate and they are only focussed on themselves. I also think it does make people dumb. In the past gamers had to learn their role in a group or a raid and there was no TS. But now with TS many just don't learn their class and role because they seem to rely on TS commanding. A sad development.
It is my firm opinion MMOs should forbid TS or Vent usage the same way gold selling is forbidden.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
YW E..
It was nice to see that others such as yourself understood what I was discussing.. I left WoW for a number of reasons, the community being one of them.. I wish MMO gaming went back to the old days when we had no VOIP, and developers didn't factor that in. Sad part is, as much as the anti-VOIP gamers express their views, it's the developers that become instant deafness to those concerns. How convenient and sad
You may want to read the title of the thread if you dont' understand the topic before attempting to insult people
Have a great day 
I don't want to work with your children. I work with the critically ill adult populations. But have you ever tried to tell a person with ALS to stop being paralyzed and run around the unit or walk to the bathroom and not defecate on themselves. Wake up man and stop living in la la land. Disabailities are real. That's why they call them disabilities and not enhancements. I would hate to be your patient because you would let my lay in urine and feces insisting I have no limitations when I have a spinal cord injury at C7.
Ok, I may have come across as a wee bit harsh. Sorry.
But the title of your post is just the hook. It's your introduction that tells us what your issue for discussion is.
If you had been more clear in your first paragraph what this debate was about, then I am sure you woudln't have had to write two reply posts complaining that most folks weren't getting it.
Regards
Melmoth
Aargh, sorry I didn't quote. This was a response to the OP.
Yes, and we are talking about hearing impaired people and not ALS.
But you claimed working knowledge on "this" debate so you should have clarified that you know NOTHING about hearing impaired kids.
Regards
Melmoth
edit. This was a response to two posts up, sorry. I forgot to quote.
There was a sage man who taught to love thy neighbor and to have compassion with all in need. Apparently it is you who is deaf, and in way more disabling ways than those with physical impariments. What good is your hearing you are so pround of, when you do not listen? What difference does it make when you make yourself deaf to the words of others? I pity you for the dark harsh vision in which you have confined yourself.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Eh, I'd have some sympathy for the guy, but really. Why do you think Vent became so popular? Because it works. Because it's better than typing out some message when you're in the middle of a raid boss fight. In life, not everything is available to you. Even if you have a disability, sorry. Should Blizzard cater to the extreme minority when the majority uses Vent and other audio programs? No. The deaf guy can find other things to do.
There's a blind and deaf marching band that marched in a major parade (New Year's Day, maybe... I can't remember off the top of my head). Those blind and deaf people worked hard and did something no one thought they could do - instead of played WoW and complained when a guild turned him away because he was too much of a hassle. He could go try that if he really wanted to.
The encounters are designed around what the players are doing. If the players didn't use third party programs, then Blizzard wouldn't have to count those as a factor. But players do use them, and they'll never stop, so Blizzard has to balance around that. You can't keep using silly putty to fix a dam when the crack is ten times the size it used to be. It's really up to the guild, in the end. They decided (as sort of a private organization, if you will) that they won't allow this deaf guy because he can't use audio communication. It's their choice. The dude can find another guild or, like I suggested, do something better with his life.
Edit: I don't mind if developers have something like subtitles or captions for cutscenes, NPC talking, etc. Even non-critical stuff. Deaf people shouldn't have to miss out on that... but you're talking about WoW and Vent, so it's not quite the same. Maybe if Vent incorporated a speech-to-text mechanism? I don't know. You probably wouldn't be able to see it anyways because WoW is open.
Edit 2: I do not think voice chat makes raids easier. It makes communication easier, but communication in war has improved as well and that sure as hell hasn't gotten easier.
Why would boss fights have to be nerfed?
I think the biggest misconception about voice chat is that it makes the game easier. I have a hard time believing that, since the essence of the game is still about taking visual cues from the screen and translating them into input commands on the interface. The games stressed and still stress player awareness not player communication.
Therefore, when players are aware, they don't need to hear from other folks to make them aware. Indeed, the game gives players everything they need so that they can do exactly what they should without relying on other players at all.
In fights against epic level NPCs in CoH, I/m surprised how very little people need to talk at all. That's because everybody simply knows what to do without being ordered to do it: people get healed, people get buffed, tanks tank, etc.
I do, however, think that voice chat is necessary for some that simply don't know how to play unless they are told what to do at every moment. I also think it's necessary for those who have trust issues or confidence issues. But I've played enough games in my time to understand that the games themselves don't require voice to play, communities within the games impose voice on as an extra requirement for reasons wholly unrelated to game mechanics.
So then, it seems to me only natural that the best game is to just declare some servers text only, some vent only, and some TS only. I mean, that way everyone gets to game with those who share their preferences, meet their needs, without any hard feelings.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I'm in disbelief at some of the responses I'm reading.. UNBELIEVABLE! I can't believe someone actually "hates" someone with a handicap because they are handicapped.. Tell me I didn't just read that?
Don't even try to tell me Christianity is a bastion for morality and compassion. Do you know your history? Your current events?
All religions are the byproduct of hypocritical bastards and gullable fools. Sure, there may be the sorry saps who ACTUALLY believe and practice the message.
I am disability free and I am also a realist that sees the world for what it truly is, both the good and the bad side instead of blinding myself to the harsh realities and hoping a fairy tale will make things better.
I pity you for being so naive.
None of this means I am not a very happy person who is nice and polite and personable to everyone I meet, because I am. And you know what I sleep VERY well at night, never alone in my bed, even though I know when I die I'm going in the ground and that is it.
And I sleep just fine knowing the world is full of idiots and naive fools and religious nuts.
So don't pull a "more holy then thou" on me pal.
Hate was not a good word choice but annoying certainly was.
I feel pity for those who are less fortunate but doesn't mean they deserve any more then I deserve being a "normal" person.
I mean seriously.
When did it become so terrible and "evil" to be PROUD to be a normal, average, un-special person?
He "hates" someone with a handicap who has a massive self-entitlement issue. "I'm handicapped, CATER EVERYTHING TO MY NEEDS BITCH!" I think we'd all hate someone like that. If the disability is stopping him from eating, breathing, moving around, etc., then yes, we can fix that. But if the disability is stopping him from raiding, give me a break.
It's funny that I agree with heeroyba on the self-entitlement thing, but not on religion. Does that make me a hyprocrite or a realistic Christian? I don't know
!
Agreed 100%