You cannot mingle simple communication with scientific communication.
nor·mal [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1.conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
"standard or common type" set forth by whom?
2.serving to establish a standard.
"standard" set forth by whom?
3.Psychology.
a.approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
"approximately average" as opposed to "absolutely average"?? There is no absolute. Normal is a generalization, as this definition clearly states.
b.free from any mental disorder; sane.
This definition serves what purpose in this discussion? That people who are not deaf are sane? And those who are deaf are insane? Another generalization, I suppose.
4.Biology, Medicine/Medical.
a.free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
Among a crowd of deaf people, it is normal to be deaf. From whose perspective does this definition speak? Dictionary.com is not all knowing.
b.of natural occurrence.
If it is within a human's DNA to be born deaf, is that not a natural occurrence?
Standard or common type set forth by the vast majority of humanity. It's "normal" to be able to hear. It's "normal" to not take joy in mutilating and killing other people. It's "normal" to have at least some compassion for something. You don't have to call it "normal" if you don't want to, but it's there. As for some of the other definitions, I think he just put them here to counter any other possible arguments elikal might make. Or he just copied and pasted the entire definition without picking the one that fits the discussion best.
Edit: Among a crowd of deaf people, it's still abnormal to be deaf, but they'd feel like they belong. If you were born deaf, then it's a bit more complicated to understand, since you've never experienced hearing. Still, you'd be able to tell because you'd be separated from others or receive special benefits... and you'd have to learn sign language when people around you don't. Something would be "wrong", or at least "different", which contradicts "normal".
Would a NBA team take a guy who was missing one of his hands?
No. Why? It would limit their ability to be competitive, win games, and as such keep the fans in the stands.
So they make special leagues for disabled people. All fine and dandy.
By this logic, do we then need special servers or games for disabled people?
I'd find that offensive.
Logic would tell us that those with a disability either need to adapt to their new situation or find something else.
More likely, however, is that this person in question needs to find a guild that won't require them to use Ventrillo or Teamspeak and still allow them to raid.
Acceptance is NOT a right, it's a priveledge.
This....even though it's somewhat harsh.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
The true nature of competition.
Agreed.
Which is why I find it offensive that I and anyone else who doesn't need to raid with ventrillo is forced to use it because people can't seem to game without it.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Would a NBA team take a guy who was missing one of his hands?
No. Why? It would limit their ability to be competitive, win games, and as such keep the fans in the stands.
So they make special leagues for disabled people. All fine and dandy.
By this logic, do we then need special servers or games for disabled people?
I'd find that offensive.
Logic would tell us that those with a disability either need to adapt to their new situation or find something else.
More likely, however, is that this person in question needs to find a guild that won't require them to use Ventrillo or Teamspeak and still allow them to raid.
Acceptance is NOT a right, it's a priveledge.
This....even though it's somewhat harsh.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
Would a NBA team take a guy who was missing one of his hands?
No. Why? It would limit their ability to be competitive, win games, and as such keep the fans in the stands.
So they make special leagues for disabled people. All fine and dandy.
By this logic, do we then need special servers or games for disabled people?
I'd find that offensive.
Logic would tell us that those with a disability either need to adapt to their new situation or find something else.
More likely, however, is that this person in question needs to find a guild that won't require them to use Ventrillo or Teamspeak and still allow them to raid.
Acceptance is NOT a right, it's a priveledge.
This....even though it's somewhat harsh.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
The true nature of competition.
Agreed.
Which is why I find it offensive that I and anyone else who doesn't need to raid with ventrillo is forced to use it because people can't seem to game without it.
I don't need Vent to raid, but I still use it because it's pretty handy. Though I rarely talk, mostly listen. Sometimes it's a pain and I'd rather just type, to be honest, but I applied for a guild and they said I needed it. In applying, I gave up any right I had to be offended because they require Vent.
Is there ANYTHING that VENT/Teamspeak can do that the user-made mods for WoW CAN'T supply or do with visual cues especially for raids?
But my last words on this, are no... devs should not be forced or obligated to accommodate regarding video games. For physical disabilities... to some extent yeah. Rebindable keys, macros... ect help a ton speaking from personal experience with injuries.
On the other hand though, I don't feel people should feel obligated to make Mt. Everest wheelchair accessible. Know what I mean?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
You cannot mingle simple communication with scientific communication.
nor·mal [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1.conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
"standard or common type" set forth by whom?
2.serving to establish a standard.
"standard" set forth by whom?
3.Psychology.
a.approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
"approximately average" as opposed to "absolutely average"?? There is no absolute. Normal is a generalization, as this definition clearly states.
b.free from any mental disorder; sane.
This definition serves what purpose in this discussion? That people who are not deaf are sane? And those who are deaf are insane? Another generalization, I suppose.
4.Biology, Medicine/Medical.
a.free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
Among a crowd of deaf people, it is normal to be deaf. From whose perspective does this definition speak? Dictionary.com is not all knowing.
b.of natural occurrence.
If it is within a human's DNA to be born deaf, is that not a natural occurrence?
In the end it all comes down to linguistics, because that is the basic of how the discuss this. As the old saying goes, the map is not the terretory. Or maybe you know this painting of a pipe saying "this is no pipe".
Everything we call with one name contains so many aspects we overlook. So we standardize by focussing on one aspect. That aspect is there, indeed. Like say, all blacks have indeed dark skin. That is a norm they have in common. But where the normative thinking goes wrong is THEN assuming that they have anything else in common, like they were lazy or good dancers or whatever. Yes you can say some group of defined people or things have something in common and thus create a mathematical norm. But as an actual referrence it is pointless because the nuances of the matter itself and the implication to assuming the rest, the very idea to define normal as a human category is pointless.
Insofar NightCloak's remarks are totally on the spot. Ultimately the will to define normal is a political agenda to push a certain view on the world, and it is an act of self-liberation and self-understanding to get rid of the thinking that there is any definable "normality". Its a cage set up by some to catch people, it is a tool made to control people, nothing else.
The error is made by making one particular thing THE defining moment. One is deaf one isnt. One is gay, the other is not. But there is not such thing as THE deaf person or THE gay person, it is just widespread thinking that makes it so. For instance what about moral disabled? Or emotionally disabled? Is a person lacking empathy not way more disabled than someone who is deaf? But so far I haven't see any people filtering others based on lack of emotional maturity, tho I'd wager that hinders the fun in MMO gaming CONSIDERABLY more than being deaf.
That the categories you have function in reality in some points does not mean they categories are correct! For instance, in the middle ages people believed the earth was the center of the solar system. They had maps and calulcations based on this false assumption, but still where able to predict the movements of the planets accurately. I know questioning the fundaments of our thinking isn't easy, but sometimes it is necessary.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If this was Las Vegas, I would place a huge bet that 99.999% of all raids would FAIL if everyone was disallowed VOIP...
And this is why your OP didn't go the way you intended. Your starting premise, that raids (in WOW apparently) could not be done without voice coms. I and many others disagree and feel that most, if not all could be done without them. (and certainly the needs of one or two deaf people could easily be accomodated.
Before WOW there was Everquest 1 and it had some very difficult raid encounters (as did DAOC once the TOA expansion came out) and someone people managed to conquer them w/o voice coms. True, it might mean it takes more time and is a bit more challenging, but in the end the encounters would have been mastered by some. (not necessarily all)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Would a NBA team take a guy who was missing one of his hands?
No. Why? It would limit their ability to be competitive, win games, and as such keep the fans in the stands.
So they make special leagues for disabled people. All fine and dandy.
By this logic, do we then need special servers or games for disabled people?
I'd find that offensive.
Logic would tell us that those with a disability either need to adapt to their new situation or find something else.
More likely, however, is that this person in question needs to find a guild that won't require them to use Ventrillo or Teamspeak and still allow them to raid.
Acceptance is NOT a right, it's a priveledge.
This....even though it's somewhat harsh.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
The true nature of competition.
Agreed.
Which is why I find it offensive that I and anyone else who doesn't need to raid with ventrillo is forced to use it because people can't seem to game without it.
I don't need Vent to raid, but I still use it because it's pretty handy. Though I rarely talk, mostly listen. Sometimes it's a pain and I'd rather just type, to be honest, but I applied for a guild and they said I needed it. In applying, I gave up any right I had to be offended because they require Vent.
Like I said, private institutions.
All fine and good.
Again, I'm not saying that people who rely on voice don't have the right to game with those who choose the sort of communication option they prefer. In fact, I think that servers should be set up so as to facilitate these preferences, so that people who like vent can go on vent only servers, people who like TS can go on TS only servers, and people who use text only can go on text-only servers.
That way, forming groups, planning events, getting people into guilds, and all the other aspects of playing is just so much more accessable for everybody. Everybody is in effect pre-screened so that groups don't have to go through the hassle of screening anybody.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You cannot mingle simple communication with scientific communication.
nor·mal [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1.conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
"standard or common type" set forth by whom?
2.serving to establish a standard.
"standard" set forth by whom?
3.Psychology.
a.approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
"approximately average" as opposed to "absolutely average"?? There is no absolute. Normal is a generalization, as this definition clearly states.
b.free from any mental disorder; sane.
This definition serves what purpose in this discussion? That people who are not deaf are sane? And those who are deaf are insane? Another generalization, I suppose.
4.Biology, Medicine/Medical.
a.free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
Among a crowd of deaf people, it is normal to be deaf. From whose perspective does this definition speak? Dictionary.com is not all knowing.
b.of natural occurrence.
If it is within a human's DNA to be born deaf, is that not a natural occurrence?
Standard or common type set forth by the vast majority of humanity. It's "normal" to be able to hear. It's "normal" to not take joy in mutilating and killing other people. It's "normal" to have at least some compassion for something. You don't have to call it "normal" if you don't want to, but it's there. As for some of the other definitions, I think he just put them here to counter any other possible arguments elikal might make. Or he just copied and pasted the entire definition without picking the one that fits the discussion best.
Edit: Among a crowd of deaf people, it's still abnormal to be deaf, but they'd feel like they belong. If you were born deaf, then it's a bit more complicated to understand, since you've never experienced hearing. Still, you'd be able to tell because you'd be separated from others or receive special benefits... and you'd have to learn sign language when people around you don't. Something would be "wrong", or at least "different", which contradicts "normal".
Hmm, I'm not so sure. I mean, I'm perfectly normal, so I wouldn't know what it's like to be abnormal. You, on the other hand, are not normal, because you do not conform to my way of thinking.... only a normal person would recognize normal for what it truly is, right?
A deaf person can't possibly think being deaf is normal, because, well, they're not normal, they are incapable of comprehending normal because they were born with a disability, so they will never have a chance of knowing what normal is, because, well, they just aren't normal...
Your logic is astounding.
edit: I apologize if this was offensive. I intended it as sarcasm
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist... http://www.ic3.gov - Internet Crime Complaint Center - Report cyber crimes to the FBI.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
The true nature of competition.
So, what you're saying is... you have no advantage over someone who is deaf?
Not at all.
I'm saying if someone can't compete because of reason X or Y then that is their problem, not mine. I shouldn't be "held back" so that they can catch up.
And as such, a guild in a MMO that is competitive in their gaming might choose to not bring a person who could be a potential liability to the success of their endevour, where as some guilds would work with that person and figure out a way for all to adapt and still succeed.
You cannot mingle simple communication with scientific communication.
nor·mal [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1.conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
"standard or common type" set forth by whom?
2.serving to establish a standard.
"standard" set forth by whom?
3.Psychology.
a.approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
"approximately average" as opposed to "absolutely average"?? There is no absolute. Normal is a generalization, as this definition clearly states.
b.free from any mental disorder; sane.
This definition serves what purpose in this discussion? That people who are not deaf are sane? And those who are deaf are insane? Another generalization, I suppose.
4.Biology, Medicine/Medical.
a.free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
Among a crowd of deaf people, it is normal to be deaf. From whose perspective does this definition speak? Dictionary.com is not all knowing.
b.of natural occurrence.
If it is within a human's DNA to be born deaf, is that not a natural occurrence?
Standard or common type set forth by the vast majority of humanity. It's "normal" to be able to hear. It's "normal" to not take joy in mutilating and killing other people. It's "normal" to have at least some compassion for something. You don't have to call it "normal" if you don't want to, but it's there. As for some of the other definitions, I think he just put them here to counter any other possible arguments elikal might make. Or he just copied and pasted the entire definition without picking the one that fits the discussion best.
Edit: Among a crowd of deaf people, it's still abnormal to be deaf, but they'd feel like they belong. If you were born deaf, then it's a bit more complicated to understand, since you've never experienced hearing. Still, you'd be able to tell because you'd be separated from others or receive special benefits... and you'd have to learn sign language when people around you don't. Something would be "wrong", or at least "different", which contradicts "normal".
Hmm, I'm not so sure. I mean, I'm perfectly normal, so I wouldn't know what it's like to be abnormal. You, on the other hand, are not normal, because you do not conform to my way of thinking.... only a normal person would recognize normal for what it truly is, right?
A deaf person can't possibly think being deaf is normal, because, well, they're not normal, they are incapable of comprehending normal because they were born with a disability, so they will never have a chance of knowing what normal is, because, well, they just aren't normal...
Your logic is astounding.
Chances are you saw someone ingame who was deaf and didn't even know. And why? Because they acted just the same as any other character would.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Would a NBA team take a guy who was missing one of his hands?
No. Why? It would limit their ability to be competitive, win games, and as such keep the fans in the stands.
So they make special leagues for disabled people. All fine and dandy.
By this logic, do we then need special servers or games for disabled people?
I'd find that offensive.
Logic would tell us that those with a disability either need to adapt to their new situation or find something else.
More likely, however, is that this person in question needs to find a guild that won't require them to use Ventrillo or Teamspeak and still allow them to raid.
Acceptance is NOT a right, it's a priveledge.
This....even though it's somewhat harsh.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
The true nature of competition.
Agreed.
Which is why I find it offensive that I and anyone else who doesn't need to raid with ventrillo is forced to use it because people can't seem to game without it.
Uh, why is that exactly? It's not like anyone just can't afford to use vent. I don't understand where this vent = elitism attitude comes from. It's a free program that expands the game experience. Grow up.
I believe all games and media in generla should be indefinitely delayed till every minority group in existance is catered for.Also any minortiy group that may come in to existance in the future must be anticipated and catered too.Add to that every game must incoporate at least 1 of every ethnicity in the world regardless of genre,tiem epriod the game is set and if there are people int he game or not.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
The true nature of competition.
So, what you're saying is... you have no advantage over someone who is deaf?
Not at all.
I'm saying if someone can't compete because of reason X or Y then that is their problem, not mine. I shouldn't be "held back" so that they can catch up.
And as such, a guild in a MMO that is competitive in their gaming might choose to not bring a person who could be a potential liability to the success of their endevour, where as some guilds would work with that person and figure out a way for all to adapt and still succeed.
This is as it should be. Because it is fair.
Perhaps...just perhaps...being deaf isn't the problem. Being so wedded to a 3rd party voice app. is the problem.
Because if a guild can't compete without having everyone on vent, that's their problem, not the person who doesn't need it. And while you or someone like you feels they shouldn't be "held back" because you need vent, isn't that what you or someone like you is asking people to do when you demand they stick a headset into their ear?
That to me isn't fairness. That's one group imposing their requirements on everyone, a requirement that is necessary for them, but not necessary for all.
The more I think about it, the more I see that the people who demand voice chat are the ones that are really handicapped. They are the ones that can't seem to learn what to do or be aware enough to respond without being told what to do.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I believe all games and media in generla should be indefinitely delayed till every minority group in existance is catered for.Also any minortiy group that may come in to existance in the future must be anticipated and catered too.Add to that every game must incoporate at least 1 of every ethnicity in the world regardless of genre,tiem epriod the game is set and if there are people int he game or not.
As a member of two minorites I never expect that. No one can forsee every instance. And not every instance really needs action. But I expect change and respect once an issue gets known. Its just a small thing to act like a kind and polite person.
For instance, I was with friends where all were native German speakers (myself included) but one was an American visitor who only spoke English, so we felt it was polite not to exclude him so we all spoke English. That is called politeness. Try it sometimes.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Would a NBA team take a guy who was missing one of his hands?
No. Why? It would limit their ability to be competitive, win games, and as such keep the fans in the stands.
So they make special leagues for disabled people. All fine and dandy.
By this logic, do we then need special servers or games for disabled people?
I'd find that offensive.
Logic would tell us that those with a disability either need to adapt to their new situation or find something else.
More likely, however, is that this person in question needs to find a guild that won't require them to use Ventrillo or Teamspeak and still allow them to raid.
Acceptance is NOT a right, it's a priveledge.
This....even though it's somewhat harsh.
Equality truly means "to be equal" in my book. No special privledges for ANYONE. Complete 100% fairness. A truly level playing field.
The true nature of competition.
Agreed.
Which is why I find it offensive that I and anyone else who doesn't need to raid with ventrillo is forced to use it because people can't seem to game without it.
Uh, why is that exactly? It's not like anyone just can't afford to use vent. I don't understand where this vent = elitism attitude comes from. It's a free program that expands the game experience. Grow up.
What does it exapand, for whom, and for what purposes?
See, I don't need it to play. To me, it cheapens--not expands--the experience because I like to hear the sound effects and music.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
As a deaf gamer, I have never felt ignored by the gaming industry. I, in fact, have worked in that industry for years myself. Games have long been a wonderful haven for the Deaf, and there are more of us playing along side you than you would ever realize.
As a few others stated, the issues with increasingly voice-dependent game environments is primarily a community issue, not a developer one. Any exclusion, discrimination or ignorance usually lies with the guild and or players.
And to those in this thread arguing for my 'abnormality'...do not attempt to justify what at its roots is prejudice by labeling it logic or science. What is 'normal' or 'average' is entirely subjective and relative. Definitions of normality change daily and across cultures and times. I was born Deaf. It is what is 'normal' for me. I am not malformed, handicapped or abnormal. I know no other way to be or live and I do not wish to be hearing, nor feel cheated because I can not hear. Different is not abnormal, it is simply different.
You cannot mingle simple communication with scientific communication.
nor·mal [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1.conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
"standard or common type" set forth by whom?
2.serving to establish a standard.
"standard" set forth by whom?
3.Psychology.
a.approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
"approximately average" as opposed to "absolutely average"?? There is no absolute. Normal is a generalization, as this definition clearly states.
b.free from any mental disorder; sane.
This definition serves what purpose in this discussion? That people who are not deaf are sane? And those who are deaf are insane? Another generalization, I suppose.
4.Biology, Medicine/Medical.
a.free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
Among a crowd of deaf people, it is normal to be deaf. From whose perspective does this definition speak? Dictionary.com is not all knowing.
b.of natural occurrence.
If it is within a human's DNA to be born deaf, is that not a natural occurrence?
Heh... I find it laughable for someone to even suggest that there are no absolutes.
The statement "There are no absolutes" is self-contradictory.
The definitions were bolded for reasons. The standard can be set by anyone. Normal is a relative term meaning it relys on the context in which it is used to determine who sets fourth the standard.
The approximate average provides the justification of the word to have moveable boundries, as is required by something relative.
Definitions 3b and 4b are provided to account for how the person became deaf as it is unknown.
Dictionary.com isn't all knowing. That is true. However, it is far easier to use a common reference rather than one that may not be.
I am absolutely certain there are absolutes. And here are three ways to find that absolutes exist:
Ask a physicist about what happens when heat is completely removed from something.
If this was Las Vegas, I would place a huge bet that 99.999% of all raids would FAIL if everyone was disallowed VOIP...
And this is why your OP didn't go the way you intended. Your starting premise, that raids (in WOW apparently) could not be done without voice coms. I and many others disagree and feel that most, if not all could be done without them. (and certainly the needs of one or two deaf people could easily be accomodated.
"Before WOW there was Everquest 1 and it had some very difficult raid encounters" (as did DAOC once the TOA expansion came out) and someone "people managed to conquer them w/o voice coms." True, it might mean it takes more time and is a bit more challenging, but in the end the encounters would have been mastered by some. (not necessarily all)
QFT
It's suddenly clear to me now...
WoW didn't dumb down the genre... voice chat did.
If people need a tweenager telling everyone step by step what to do, how to do it and when... wake up and realize you're not playing a mmo anymore you're playing "Simon Says"... but more than likely you'll get to hear about the 1337ist's asscrack and how much it itches, their dislike for "newbs" and how everyone is one, or speaking "LAWL" in various forms of pronunciation, the guild/vent whore that thinks she's the best damned thing that has ever came to the game because she has tits and verbally expresses so or hearing every... single... time... some dude bitch whine and moan "Dammits, fucks, and shits" every... single... time... he gets hit till he's killed to hear the finale of his symphony of swearwords like I really fucking care.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
As a deaf gamer, I have never felt ignored by the gaming industry. I, in fact, have worked in that industry for years myself. Games have long been a wonderful haven for the Deaf, and there are more of us playing along side you than you would ever realize.
As a few others stated, the issues with increasingly voice-dependent game environments is primarily a community issue, not a developer one. Any exclusion, discrimination or ignorance usually lies with the guild and or players.
And to those in this thread arguing for my 'abnormality'...do not attempt to justify what at its roots is prejudice by labeling it logic or science. What is 'normal' or 'average' is entirely subjective and relative. Definitions of normality change daily and across cultures and times. I was born Deaf. It is what is 'normal' for me. I am not malformed, handicapped or abnormal. I know no other way to be or live and I do not wish to be hearing, nor feel cheated because I can not hear. Different is not abnormal, it is simply different.
*nod*
Ignorance is the biggest problem, which I believe is the point of the post.
I know many people who can hear just fine that don't "Listen". An abnormality or disability does not instantly constitute stupidity or ignorance either. Of all places... WoW of all games does not absolutely need a form of verbal chat to play or play right. Visual cues, repetition, and a "Know your role" mentality while being aware of your surroundings in a game and you don't even need to type a word, especially with all the friggin add ons in WoW.
But since you are deaf and do or have gamed online... do you think they could add more visual cues to supplement the absence of sound for people like yourself so that would be beneficial in your gaming experience?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I frequently play games with no sound. Usually because I have to listen to other things. So from the very controlled and narrow perspective of playing the game only, I understand how to play with the inability to hear. As anyone could by turning the sound off. (By no way am I saying I understand what its like to be deaf)
I have also chosen to not join vent during raids and still have the sound off in which no audio que would assist me. For the most part, it didn't affect my gaming. So it seems that the player should attempt to find a guild that doesn't require the use of voice communication. (My bet, there are deaf players in top tier guilds already).
But I do hope the games continue to be playable without sound.
If this was Las Vegas, I would place a huge bet that 99.999% of all raids would FAIL if everyone was disallowed VOIP...
And this is why your OP didn't go the way you intended. Your starting premise, that raids (in WOW apparently) could not be done without voice coms. I and many others disagree and feel that most, if not all could be done without them. (and certainly the needs of one or two deaf people could easily be accomodated.
"Before WOW there was Everquest 1 and it had some very difficult raid encounters" (as did DAOC once the TOA expansion came out) and someone "people managed to conquer them w/o voice coms." True, it might mean it takes more time and is a bit more challenging, but in the end the encounters would have been mastered by some. (not necessarily all)
QFT
It's suddenly clear to me now...
WoW didn't dumb down the genre... voice chat did.
If people need a tweenager telling everyone step by step what to do, how to do it and when... wake up and realize you're not playing a mmo anymore you're playing "Simon Says"... but more than likely you'll get to hear about the 1337ist's asscrack and how much it itches, their dislike for "newbs" and how everyone is one, or speaking "LAWL" in various forms of pronunciation, the guild/vent whore that thinks she's the best damned thing that has ever came to the game because she has tits and verbally expresses so or hearing every... single... time... some dude bitch whine and moan "Dammits, fucks, and shits" every... single... time... he gets hit till he's killed to hear the finale of his symphony of swearwords like I really fucking care.
That's right, which makes me believe that all of this talk about "we need voicechat to maximally perform" is just an excuse. It isn't necessary, never was necessary, and never will be necessary.
Which begs the question of exactly why guilds demand it. I think it has to do with self-esteem issues and control issues, personally. Having the power to fart into mics, play "Ms. Popular Guild Whore," kick or accept people based on voice and OOC musings, and saying whatever to a captive audience of other human beings online can be a very ego-boosing experience. If you don't like what they have to say, you won't get the raid loot. If you don't flatter and acquiece to the punk kids' rants about weed and porn, the punk kids can assert some sort of control and dominance over someone else in the only realm that they have any authority at all: the realm of MMO land.
Be that as it may...
If some people won't game with others unless they hook themselves up to a mic, so be it. In fact, we should not only allow them that privilege, but make it easier by declaring servers just for them.
But by the same token, people who use text-only should have text-only servers...not that anyone can actually prohibit voice chat, but make it so anybody who prefers that style of communication can game in an environment where everyone does.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You cannot mingle simple communication with scientific communication.
nor·mal [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1.conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
"standard or common type" set forth by whom?
2.serving to establish a standard.
"standard" set forth by whom?
3.Psychology.
a.approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
"approximately average" as opposed to "absolutely average"?? There is no absolute. Normal is a generalization, as this definition clearly states.
b.free from any mental disorder; sane.
This definition serves what purpose in this discussion? That people who are not deaf are sane? And those who are deaf are insane? Another generalization, I suppose.
4.Biology, Medicine/Medical.
a.free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
Among a crowd of deaf people, it is normal to be deaf. From whose perspective does this definition speak? Dictionary.com is not all knowing.
b.of natural occurrence.
If it is within a human's DNA to be born deaf, is that not a natural occurrence?
Standard or common type set forth by the vast majority of humanity. It's "normal" to be able to hear. It's "normal" to not take joy in mutilating and killing other people. It's "normal" to have at least some compassion for something. You don't have to call it "normal" if you don't want to, but it's there. As for some of the other definitions, I think he just put them here to counter any other possible arguments elikal might make. Or he just copied and pasted the entire definition without picking the one that fits the discussion best.
Edit: Among a crowd of deaf people, it's still abnormal to be deaf, but they'd feel like they belong. If you were born deaf, then it's a bit more complicated to understand, since you've never experienced hearing. Still, you'd be able to tell because you'd be separated from others or receive special benefits... and you'd have to learn sign language when people around you don't. Something would be "wrong", or at least "different", which contradicts "normal".
Hmm, I'm not so sure. I mean, I'm perfectly normal, so I wouldn't know what it's like to be abnormal. You, on the other hand, are not normal, because you do not conform to my way of thinking.... only a normal person would recognize normal for what it truly is, right?
A deaf person can't possibly think being deaf is normal, because, well, they're not normal, they are incapable of comprehending normal because they were born with a disability, so they will never have a chance of knowing what normal is, because, well, they just aren't normal...
Your logic is astounding.
Chances are you saw someone ingame who was deaf and didn't even know. And why? Because they acted just the same as any other character would.
For what it's worth, I was being sarcastic. I am very far from anything even remotely close to normal: (1) I'm an ex-felon, (2) I'm a drug addict, (3) I have tattoos from head to toe, (4) I'm a narcissistic-schizoid with bi-polar disorder and ADHD, (5) I'm arguing philosophy with strangers across the world on a video game forum, (6) I'm very self-aware and recognize flaws when I see them.
The discussion was originally about developers catering to those with disabilities. At some point, the definition and meaning of the word "normal" was called into play. I took my stab at it, tried to help others realize that the word "normal" is a generalization and is essentially meaningless. Ignorance feeds the generalization.
I recognize and sympathize with being considered "abnormal," every time I went for a job interview, I was treated differently because of my past legal issues, regardless of how competent or capable I actually was. Even though some have clearly stated that if "I can hear, I am normal." Well, I can hear perfectly fine, and I assure, I am anything but normal (or maybe I am normal, who knows?). Anyway, I appreciate the discussion, it is always enlightening to hear from others on these types of subjects.
Back to the topic, the issue is not the developoers, it is the community of the game. Developers do what they can to accomodate their players, but it is the community who changes and alters the online gameplay. If the community shuns those with disabilities, then the community has actively alienated people with disabilities for their own personal reasons, making them look like complete hate-mongers from the perspective of someone like myself.
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist... http://www.ic3.gov - Internet Crime Complaint Center - Report cyber crimes to the FBI.
Comments
Standard or common type set forth by the vast majority of humanity. It's "normal" to be able to hear. It's "normal" to not take joy in mutilating and killing other people. It's "normal" to have at least some compassion for something. You don't have to call it "normal" if you don't want to, but it's there. As for some of the other definitions, I think he just put them here to counter any other possible arguments elikal might make. Or he just copied and pasted the entire definition without picking the one that fits the discussion best.
Edit: Among a crowd of deaf people, it's still abnormal to be deaf, but they'd feel like they belong. If you were born deaf, then it's a bit more complicated to understand, since you've never experienced hearing. Still, you'd be able to tell because you'd be separated from others or receive special benefits... and you'd have to learn sign language when people around you don't. Something would be "wrong", or at least "different", which contradicts "normal".
Agreed.
Which is why I find it offensive that I and anyone else who doesn't need to raid with ventrillo is forced to use it because people can't seem to game without it.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
So, what you're saying is... you have no advantage over someone who is deaf?
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist...
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mmmk
I don't need Vent to raid, but I still use it because it's pretty handy. Though I rarely talk, mostly listen. Sometimes it's a pain and I'd rather just type, to be honest, but I applied for a guild and they said I needed it. In applying, I gave up any right I had to be offended because they require Vent.
Like I said, private institutions.
Well riddle me this...
Is there ANYTHING that VENT/Teamspeak can do that the user-made mods for WoW CAN'T supply or do with visual cues especially for raids?
But my last words on this, are no... devs should not be forced or obligated to accommodate regarding video games. For physical disabilities... to some extent yeah. Rebindable keys, macros... ect help a ton speaking from personal experience with injuries.
On the other hand though, I don't feel people should feel obligated to make Mt. Everest wheelchair accessible. Know what I mean?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
In the end it all comes down to linguistics, because that is the basic of how the discuss this. As the old saying goes, the map is not the terretory. Or maybe you know this painting of a pipe saying "this is no pipe".
Everything we call with one name contains so many aspects we overlook. So we standardize by focussing on one aspect. That aspect is there, indeed. Like say, all blacks have indeed dark skin. That is a norm they have in common. But where the normative thinking goes wrong is THEN assuming that they have anything else in common, like they were lazy or good dancers or whatever. Yes you can say some group of defined people or things have something in common and thus create a mathematical norm. But as an actual referrence it is pointless because the nuances of the matter itself and the implication to assuming the rest, the very idea to define normal as a human category is pointless.
Insofar NightCloak's remarks are totally on the spot. Ultimately the will to define normal is a political agenda to push a certain view on the world, and it is an act of self-liberation and self-understanding to get rid of the thinking that there is any definable "normality". Its a cage set up by some to catch people, it is a tool made to control people, nothing else.
The error is made by making one particular thing THE defining moment. One is deaf one isnt. One is gay, the other is not. But there is not such thing as THE deaf person or THE gay person, it is just widespread thinking that makes it so. For instance what about moral disabled? Or emotionally disabled? Is a person lacking empathy not way more disabled than someone who is deaf? But so far I haven't see any people filtering others based on lack of emotional maturity, tho I'd wager that hinders the fun in MMO gaming CONSIDERABLY more than being deaf.
That the categories you have function in reality in some points does not mean they categories are correct! For instance, in the middle ages people believed the earth was the center of the solar system. They had maps and calulcations based on this false assumption, but still where able to predict the movements of the planets accurately. I know questioning the fundaments of our thinking isn't easy, but sometimes it is necessary.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
And this is why your OP didn't go the way you intended. Your starting premise, that raids (in WOW apparently) could not be done without voice coms. I and many others disagree and feel that most, if not all could be done without them. (and certainly the needs of one or two deaf people could easily be accomodated.
Before WOW there was Everquest 1 and it had some very difficult raid encounters (as did DAOC once the TOA expansion came out) and someone people managed to conquer them w/o voice coms. True, it might mean it takes more time and is a bit more challenging, but in the end the encounters would have been mastered by some. (not necessarily all)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All fine and good.
Again, I'm not saying that people who rely on voice don't have the right to game with those who choose the sort of communication option they prefer. In fact, I think that servers should be set up so as to facilitate these preferences, so that people who like vent can go on vent only servers, people who like TS can go on TS only servers, and people who use text only can go on text-only servers.
That way, forming groups, planning events, getting people into guilds, and all the other aspects of playing is just so much more accessable for everybody. Everybody is in effect pre-screened so that groups don't have to go through the hassle of screening anybody.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Hmm, I'm not so sure. I mean, I'm perfectly normal, so I wouldn't know what it's like to be abnormal. You, on the other hand, are not normal, because you do not conform to my way of thinking.... only a normal person would recognize normal for what it truly is, right?
A deaf person can't possibly think being deaf is normal, because, well, they're not normal, they are incapable of comprehending normal because they were born with a disability, so they will never have a chance of knowing what normal is, because, well, they just aren't normal...
Your logic is astounding.
edit: I apologize if this was offensive. I intended it as sarcasm
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist...
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Not at all.
I'm saying if someone can't compete because of reason X or Y then that is their problem, not mine. I shouldn't be "held back" so that they can catch up.
And as such, a guild in a MMO that is competitive in their gaming might choose to not bring a person who could be a potential liability to the success of their endevour, where as some guilds would work with that person and figure out a way for all to adapt and still succeed.
This is as it should be. Because it is fair.
Chances are you saw someone ingame who was deaf and didn't even know. And why? Because they acted just the same as any other character would.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Uh, why is that exactly? It's not like anyone just can't afford to use vent. I don't understand where this vent = elitism attitude comes from. It's a free program that expands the game experience. Grow up.
I believe all games and media in generla should be indefinitely delayed till every minority group in existance is catered for.Also any minortiy group that may come in to existance in the future must be anticipated and catered too.Add to that every game must incoporate at least 1 of every ethnicity in the world regardless of genre,tiem epriod the game is set and if there are people int he game or not.
Perhaps...just perhaps...being deaf isn't the problem. Being so wedded to a 3rd party voice app. is the problem.
Because if a guild can't compete without having everyone on vent, that's their problem, not the person who doesn't need it. And while you or someone like you feels they shouldn't be "held back" because you need vent, isn't that what you or someone like you is asking people to do when you demand they stick a headset into their ear?
That to me isn't fairness. That's one group imposing their requirements on everyone, a requirement that is necessary for them, but not necessary for all.
The more I think about it, the more I see that the people who demand voice chat are the ones that are really handicapped. They are the ones that can't seem to learn what to do or be aware enough to respond without being told what to do.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
As a member of two minorites I never expect that. No one can forsee every instance. And not every instance really needs action. But I expect change and respect once an issue gets known. Its just a small thing to act like a kind and polite person.
For instance, I was with friends where all were native German speakers (myself included) but one was an American visitor who only spoke English, so we felt it was polite not to exclude him so we all spoke English. That is called politeness. Try it sometimes.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What does it exapand, for whom, and for what purposes?
See, I don't need it to play. To me, it cheapens--not expands--the experience because I like to hear the sound effects and music.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
should they also cater to blind people?
As a deaf gamer, I have never felt ignored by the gaming industry. I, in fact, have worked in that industry for years myself. Games have long been a wonderful haven for the Deaf, and there are more of us playing along side you than you would ever realize.
As a few others stated, the issues with increasingly voice-dependent game environments is primarily a community issue, not a developer one. Any exclusion, discrimination or ignorance usually lies with the guild and or players.
And to those in this thread arguing for my 'abnormality'...do not attempt to justify what at its roots is prejudice by labeling it logic or science. What is 'normal' or 'average' is entirely subjective and relative. Definitions of normality change daily and across cultures and times. I was born Deaf. It is what is 'normal' for me. I am not malformed, handicapped or abnormal. I know no other way to be or live and I do not wish to be hearing, nor feel cheated because I can not hear. Different is not abnormal, it is simply different.
Heh... I find it laughable for someone to even suggest that there are no absolutes.
The statement "There are no absolutes" is self-contradictory.
The definitions were bolded for reasons. The standard can be set by anyone. Normal is a relative term meaning it relys on the context in which it is used to determine who sets fourth the standard.
The approximate average provides the justification of the word to have moveable boundries, as is required by something relative.
Definitions 3b and 4b are provided to account for how the person became deaf as it is unknown.
Dictionary.com isn't all knowing. That is true. However, it is far easier to use a common reference rather than one that may not be.
I am absolutely certain there are absolutes. And here are three ways to find that absolutes exist:
Ask a physicist about what happens when heat is completely removed from something.
Ask a mathmetition to provide an end to infinity.
Ask a priest about God.
QFT
It's suddenly clear to me now...
WoW didn't dumb down the genre... voice chat did.
If people need a tweenager telling everyone step by step what to do, how to do it and when... wake up and realize you're not playing a mmo anymore you're playing "Simon Says"... but more than likely you'll get to hear about the 1337ist's asscrack and how much it itches, their dislike for "newbs" and how everyone is one, or speaking "LAWL" in various forms of pronunciation, the guild/vent whore that thinks she's the best damned thing that has ever came to the game because she has tits and verbally expresses so or hearing every... single... time... some dude bitch whine and moan "Dammits, fucks, and shits" every... single... time... he gets hit till he's killed to hear the finale of his symphony of swearwords like I really fucking care.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
*nod*
Ignorance is the biggest problem, which I believe is the point of the post.
I know many people who can hear just fine that don't "Listen". An abnormality or disability does not instantly constitute stupidity or ignorance either. Of all places... WoW of all games does not absolutely need a form of verbal chat to play or play right. Visual cues, repetition, and a "Know your role" mentality while being aware of your surroundings in a game and you don't even need to type a word, especially with all the friggin add ons in WoW.
But since you are deaf and do or have gamed online... do you think they could add more visual cues to supplement the absence of sound for people like yourself so that would be beneficial in your gaming experience?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I frequently play games with no sound. Usually because I have to listen to other things. So from the very controlled and narrow perspective of playing the game only, I understand how to play with the inability to hear. As anyone could by turning the sound off. (By no way am I saying I understand what its like to be deaf)
I have also chosen to not join vent during raids and still have the sound off in which no audio que would assist me. For the most part, it didn't affect my gaming. So it seems that the player should attempt to find a guild that doesn't require the use of voice communication. (My bet, there are deaf players in top tier guilds already).
But I do hope the games continue to be playable without sound.
That's right, which makes me believe that all of this talk about "we need voicechat to maximally perform" is just an excuse. It isn't necessary, never was necessary, and never will be necessary.
Which begs the question of exactly why guilds demand it. I think it has to do with self-esteem issues and control issues, personally. Having the power to fart into mics, play "Ms. Popular Guild Whore," kick or accept people based on voice and OOC musings, and saying whatever to a captive audience of other human beings online can be a very ego-boosing experience. If you don't like what they have to say, you won't get the raid loot. If you don't flatter and acquiece to the punk kids' rants about weed and porn, the punk kids can assert some sort of control and dominance over someone else in the only realm that they have any authority at all: the realm of MMO land.
Be that as it may...
If some people won't game with others unless they hook themselves up to a mic, so be it. In fact, we should not only allow them that privilege, but make it easier by declaring servers just for them.
But by the same token, people who use text-only should have text-only servers...not that anyone can actually prohibit voice chat, but make it so anybody who prefers that style of communication can game in an environment where everyone does.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
For what it's worth, I was being sarcastic. I am very far from anything even remotely close to normal: (1) I'm an ex-felon, (2) I'm a drug addict, (3) I have tattoos from head to toe, (4) I'm a narcissistic-schizoid with bi-polar disorder and ADHD, (5) I'm arguing philosophy with strangers across the world on a video game forum, (6) I'm very self-aware and recognize flaws when I see them.
The discussion was originally about developers catering to those with disabilities. At some point, the definition and meaning of the word "normal" was called into play. I took my stab at it, tried to help others realize that the word "normal" is a generalization and is essentially meaningless. Ignorance feeds the generalization.
I recognize and sympathize with being considered "abnormal," every time I went for a job interview, I was treated differently because of my past legal issues, regardless of how competent or capable I actually was. Even though some have clearly stated that if "I can hear, I am normal." Well, I can hear perfectly fine, and I assure, I am anything but normal (or maybe I am normal, who knows?). Anyway, I appreciate the discussion, it is always enlightening to hear from others on these types of subjects.
Back to the topic, the issue is not the developoers, it is the community of the game. Developers do what they can to accomodate their players, but it is the community who changes and alters the online gameplay. If the community shuns those with disabilities, then the community has actively alienated people with disabilities for their own personal reasons, making them look like complete hate-mongers from the perspective of someone like myself.
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist...
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http://www.spamcop.net - SpamCop.net - Report spam and scam emails.
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/ - Network Solutions WHOIS - Investigate and reveal suspcious websites.