Bah its not really the developers its the community of people, and the kids in world of warcraft. I dont join guilds that require people to Download certain addons, or use voice, or ventrilo, or any other type of stuff other than Blizzard Entertainment makes themself, or any other company who made the game, However I will use it if I please to.
The reason is simple, How many idiots dont know how to run a dungeon, sure we get newbs, but I have been running dungeons for many years, I dont need an addon to tell me how much aggro I have, or how much a tank is taking aggro,ect. These type of addons help yes, but to be made a requirement for a guild something I wont do period.
DKP Points are dumb too, Something I also refuse to do, unless Blizzard Entertainment makes an offical database of it, and a list of dkp scores you can bid on items with, ect.
So Yeah I find it highly dumb that someone would not accept a person into their party just because they are Deaf, or have a small disabillity real life. I mean I have problems myself ^-^, and wouldn't like getting declined because of it. I myself have vision problems, and other things so it wouldn't be too nice. But again this is just me.
You cannot mingle simple communication with scientific communication.
nor·mal [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1.conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
"standard or common type" set forth by whom?
2.serving to establish a standard.
"standard" set forth by whom?
3.Psychology.
a.approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
"approximately average" as opposed to "absolutely average"?? There is no absolute. Normal is a generalization, as this definition clearly states.
b.free from any mental disorder; sane.
This definition serves what purpose in this discussion? That people who are not deaf are sane? And those who are deaf are insane? Another generalization, I suppose.
4.Biology, Medicine/Medical.
a.free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
Among a crowd of deaf people, it is normal to be deaf. From whose perspective does this definition speak? Dictionary.com is not all knowing.
b.of natural occurrence.
If it is within a human's DNA to be born deaf, is that not a natural occurrence?
Heh... I find it laughable for someone to even suggest that there are no absolutes.
The statement "There are no absolutes" is self-contradictory.
The definitions were bolded for reasons. The standard can be set by anyone. Normal is a relative term meaning it relys on the context in which it is used to determine who sets fourth the standard.
The approximate average provides the justification of the word to have moveable boundries, as is required by something relative.
Definitions 3b and 4b are provided to account for how the person became deaf as it is unknown.
Dictionary.com isn't all knowing. That is true. However, it is far easier to use a common reference rather than one that may not be.
I am absolutely certain there are absolutes. And here are three ways to find that absolutes exist:
Ask a physicist about what happens when heat is completely removed from something.
Ask a mathmetition to provide an end to infinity.
Ask a priest about God.
Nice, but I never said there are no absolutes. If I did, it was in reference to the generalized term in question, "normal."
There is no absolute "normal," because normal is a generalization. You can try and disprove this all you like, but it is simple philosophy and logic. Normal is a generalization, an approximation. I suppose it is possible to have an absolute approximation, but that seems to contradict itself. An approximation is an intentional avoidance of an absolute, in order to offer a generalized answer where an absolute answer is lacking. Right?
If you had an absolute answer, you wouldn't need to approximate.
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist... http://www.ic3.gov - Internet Crime Complaint Center - Report cyber crimes to the FBI.
Ignorance is the biggest problem, which I believe is the point of the post.
I know many people who can hear just fine that don't "Listen". An abnormality or disability does not instantly constitute stupidity or ignorance either. Of all places... WoW of all games does not absolutely need a form of verbal chat to play or play right. Visual cues, repetition, and a "Know your role" mentality while being aware of your surroundings in a game and you don't even need to type a word, especially with all the friggin add ons in WoW.
But since you are deaf and do or have gamed online... do you think they could add more visual cues to supplement the absence of sound for people like yourself so that would be beneficial in your gaming experience?
I have been gaming on and offline since games started. I am a first gen gamer, and I have rarely ever encountered a game that contained any barriers to my play (and the few exceptions were all heavily voice-overed games that made the now-unusual choice not to have subtitle options).
I honestly do not feel sound, voice, or any related aspect are required or in anyway needed to play any game on or offline (again, so long as subtitles are an option for any voice-over work). Being among those who played and raided in Everquest and other first gen mmos, and other games long before voice came to be king, I can say that it was most definitely never an issue and like many modern gadgets, toys and conveniences voice programs in gaming are more a matter of laziness than need. We all sure did fine without remote controls and VoIP before they came along after all.
My only experiences of exclusion and unresponsiveness have been from players and guilds, not from developers or the game design and mechanics.
Ignorance is the biggest problem, which I believe is the point of the post.
I know many people who can hear just fine that don't "Listen". An abnormality or disability does not instantly constitute stupidity or ignorance either. Of all places... WoW of all games does not absolutely need a form of verbal chat to play or play right. Visual cues, repetition, and a "Know your role" mentality while being aware of your surroundings in a game and you don't even need to type a word, especially with all the friggin add ons in WoW.
But since you are deaf and do or have gamed online... do you think they could add more visual cues to supplement the absence of sound for people like yourself so that would be beneficial in your gaming experience?
I have been gaming on and offline since games started. I am a first gen gamer, and I have rarely ever encountered a game that contained any barriers to my play (and the few exceptions were all heavily voice-overed games that made the now-unusual choice not to have subtitle options).
I honestly do not feel sound, voice, or any related aspect are required or in anyway needed to play any game on or offline (again, so long as subtitles are an option for any voice-over work). Being among those who played and raided in Everquest and other first gen mmos, and other games long before voice came to be king, I can say that it was most definitely never an issue and like many modern gadgets, toys and conveniences voice programs in gaming are more a matter of laziness than need. We all sure did fine without remote controls and VoIP before they came along after all.
My only experiences of exclusion and unresponsiveness have been from players and guilds, not from developers or the game design and mechanics.
/agree
Personally the ONLY time where I could think that hearing was of major importance was in EQ while I was a Cleric medding and staring that that goddamned spellbook. If people didn't type "add, aggro, pop" or something like that you had to listen for the audible cues or grunts, offensive spells being cast, footsteps, griffin wings flapping (grr) or the sound of someones spine going "CRUNCH", ect.
Though you saying you played EQ blows my theory out of the water. I always joked with friends that the only "real" reason people played EQ back in the day was because the "DING" was Pavlovian conditioning backed by negative reinforcement (die and lose 5 hours of xp grinding) lol.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Having played with someone that is colorblind and someone that had only one hand, those are just obstacles to overcome. The guild was willing to assist them. Same for vent - in if you want but not mandatory, if you don't though you better know the fight! People in the middle of a fight can't always type out directions to those not in vent. That is the only advantage coordinating movement. Personally I can take or leave vent - generally too much b.s. from the eternally bored, so much easier to avoid it then listen to!
As for the elitist jerks in many raiding guilds - OMG! The epeen is hilarious. Fill out an app, we'll give you a trial run if you can post your gear score and recent dps meters, maybe we'll work you in - it's a bloody game people! That whole farce takes fun out of the game as far as I'm concerned. It's not a group of friends working to achieve something it's elitist snobbery of the worst order.
I don't believe developers should ignore the deaf/blind or any other handicap, but I don't believe they should build a game around it either.
I see once again so many have gone off on a tangent of what the topic is about.. It's not a question of "is the game playable" by deaf people, it's about developers disigning encounters where VOIP is factored in. WoW is a perfect example of that such as any enounter in ICC is next to impossible without the use of 3rd party addons. Blizzard knows the heavy use of addons such as healbot and designs their boss fights with that in mind. NOT ONE single boss fight is designed with the use of the default WoW UI.. VOIP is treated the same way.
The ability of people to instantly call out changing effects, and to adjust to the fight using VOIP is indeed something that developers are aware and factor in. Almost all boss fights require the raiders to be mobile and on the move. An avatar that sits still to type is normally dead. Blizzard didn't add their own VOIP to the game, because it was nifty, it was added because they were aware of the VOIP benefit and the importance it was to raiding (which is primarly what the game is about) I"ve head people call out "debuffs" "webs""traps" and the like and if there was no VOIP, I can imagine the outcome of those fights.
As I said ealier.. I would be comfortable in betting that 99.99% of all ICC raids would fail if you removed ALL addon use and VOIP from the raid.. Next time you wish to raid ICC, turn off your sound, and addons and tell me how well you do.. LOL
PS Edit.. FYI.. every single top ranked arena team uses VOIP, it's only a matter of time, especially with rated BG and the new guild leveling system, that VOIP becomes standard to participate in them..
They shouldn't go out of their way. Providing CC, which is pretty standard anyway is about the only reasonable feature anyone should expect. Past that and sorry to say you're being a ^$&#*. Being deaf doesn't preclude you from being unreasonable.
Can you just clarify something are you saying deaf people are unable to use any 3rd part add-ons or is this thread not really about deaf people at all? Either way, your meaning was unclear from the start, I think you should probably stop berating people for not going off on the particular tangent that you wanted.
I can't talk about ICC because I don't play WoW at the moment but I can't think of a single encounter I have seen that couldn't be done perfectly well without the use of VOIP. As I said earlier, not long ago I was in a guild that didn't use VOIP as a matter of choice.
If we're talking about all 3rd party add-ons that's a different matter and a much more complicated question. There is sometimes a fine line between add-ons which simply improve the UI and those which start to spoon feed information to the player. At the upper end of skill add-ons don't help that much because a really good player will know what is going on anyway. Take an add-on like Deadly Boss Mods, the timers help a bit but most of the information it feeds you can also be derived just by looking around and reading the boss emotes. However, I would agree that in general add-ons do make raid encounters easier, especially for players that are not so aware of what is going on around them.
Personally i'd love to see a lot of these raid assisting add-ons removed from games because I think they do remove an element of skill which is already somewhat lacking in MMOs. But I wouldn't like to see all add-ons removed as there are plenty which do nothing but the enhance the game. Of course none of this has anything to do with deaf people.
As far as Arena goes, yeah that's definitely an area where VOIP helps a lot. It is still perfectly possible to enjoy Arena matches regardless but I imagine it is very difficult to compete with top teams without using VOIP. But I guess, though it may seem heartless, I don't believe that VOIP should be removed to create a level playing field for the very small minority who can't use it.
The idea of removing VOIP from MMOs entirely is pretty much a non-starter anyway. Most people use it because they enjoy it, they like chatting to their friends while playing and it has nothing to do with improving performance. I have no idea why we are even discussing it or, indeed, what we are supposed to be discussing
I see once again so many have gone off on a tangent of what the topic is about.. It's not a question of "is the game playable" by deaf people, it's about developers disigning encounters where VOIP is factored in. WoW is a perfect example of that such as any enounter in ICC is next to impossible without the use of 3rd party addons. Blizzard knows the heavy use of addons such as healbot and designs their boss fights with that in mind. NOT ONE single boss fight is designed with the use of the default WoW UI.. VOIP is treated the same way.
The ability of people to instantly call out changing effects, and to adjust to the fight using VOIP is indeed something that developers are aware and factor in. Almost all boss fights require the raiders to be mobile and on the move. An avatar that sits still to type is normally dead. Blizzard didn't add their own VOIP to the game, because it was nifty, it was added because they were aware of the VOIP benefit and the importance it was to raiding (which is primarly what the game is about) I"ve head people call out "debuffs" "webs""traps" and the like and if there was no VOIP, I can imagine the outcome of those fights.
As I said ealier.. I would be comfortable in betting that 99.99% of all ICC raids would fail if you removed ALL addon use and VOIP from the raid.. Next time you wish to raid ICC, turn off your sound, and addons and tell me how well you do.. LOL
PS Edit.. FYI.. every single top ranked arena team uses VOIP, it's only a matter of time, especially with rated BG and the new guild leveling system, that VOIP becomes standard to participate in them..
That's fine, but I really don't understand why you are so dead-set against voice chat. If that's all you wanted to discuss, then why'd you include the poor wittle deaf guy who can't raid because he can't use Vent? That brought in all the discussion about morality, what game devs should do with disabled people, etc. You should've said "I think Vent/voice chat makes MMOs easier and should not be allowed" or something to that effect.
Modern warfare. Advanced communications. Are you going to tell me war has gotten any easier because of it? If it has, it's only because we pack more firepower into weapons than we'd ever realistically use. Not because of better communcations. Similarly, if Blizzard gave every class an insta-kill ability and x1000% damage, the raids would be pretty easy. Vent has nothing to do with that. In fact, using your example, Vent helped foster this newer, more reactive and action-y boss fight, where you have to pay attention and move quickly in order to survive. It's possible if you use Vent, but very difficult if you have to type (unless you type quickly). Most people only use Vent to listen, and they don't communicate anyways, so a guild having Vent as a requirement so the leaders can communicate efficiently makes sense.
I see once again so many have gone off on a tangent of what the topic is about.. It's not a question of "is the game playable" by deaf people, it's about developers disigning encounters where VOIP is factored in. WoW is a perfect example of that such as any enounter in ICC is next to impossible without the use of 3rd party addons. Blizzard knows the heavy use of addons such as healbot and designs their boss fights with that in mind. NOT ONE single boss fight is designed with the use of the default WoW UI.. VOIP is treated the same way.
The ability of people to instantly call out changing effects, and to adjust to the fight using VOIP is indeed something that developers are aware and factor in. Almost all boss fights require the raiders to be mobile and on the move. An avatar that sits still to type is normally dead. Blizzard didn't add their own VOIP to the game, because it was nifty, it was added because they were aware of the VOIP benefit and the importance it was to raiding (which is primarly what the game is about) I"ve head people call out "debuffs" "webs""traps" and the like and if there was no VOIP, I can imagine the outcome of those fights.
As I said ealier.. I would be comfortable in betting that 99.99% of all ICC raids would fail if you removed ALL addon use and VOIP from the raid.. Next time you wish to raid ICC, turn off your sound, and addons and tell me how well you do.. LOL
PS Edit.. FYI.. every single top ranked arena team uses VOIP, it's only a matter of time, especially with rated BG and the new guild leveling system, that VOIP becomes standard to participate in them..
Conundrum, isn't it?
The staple for all boss fights, dating back to NES/Arcade days were figuring out the pattern. Boss fight patterns are standard in RPG's too. The thing is back in the day, boss fights were limited by their AI and the game mechanics of that time.
Things have evolved.
So here's the problem. When you fight, say, one of the biggest, baddest things IN THE WHOLE GAME... should it be a simple pattern to figure out so no thought is needed (i.e. megadragon flaps wings once for AoE breath weapon, twice for a trample charge in a straight line, three times when it gets ready to heal) and that's it?
The majority of people who play games enjoy it because of the difficulty, of achieving something that is not simple, or winning period despite the odds against them.
VOIP, however, has made people lazy and dependent on being told what to do. Add On's do just as much. In the end, raids have turned into one huge advanced form of "Simon"+RTS supplemented with a few people on vent telling you what to do while following instructions of what your massive database of add ons tell you to do.
WoW is not a hard game, just the <5% endgame raid content requires everyone to be on the same page, and that's only because <5% leetists bitched and moaned to get it.
So should Devs. change ultimate endgame content to be easy? No. It should be long, difficult, unpredictable AND fun. Like I said before, Mt. Everest should not be wheelchair accessible... but that doesn't mean a person should be barred from trying it.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I see once again so many have gone off on a tangent of what the topic is about.. It's not a question of "is the game playable" by deaf people, it's about developers disigning encounters where VOIP is factored in. WoW is a perfect example of that such as any enounter in ICC is next to impossible without the use of 3rd party addons. Blizzard knows the heavy use of addons such as healbot and designs their boss fights with that in mind. NOT ONE single boss fight is designed with the use of the default WoW UI.. VOIP is treated the same way.
The ability of people to instantly call out changing effects, and to adjust to the fight using VOIP is indeed something that developers are aware and factor in. Almost all boss fights require the raiders to be mobile and on the move. An avatar that sits still to type is normally dead. Blizzard didn't add their own VOIP to the game, because it was nifty, it was added because they were aware of the VOIP benefit and the importance it was to raiding (which is primarly what the game is about) I"ve head people call out "debuffs" "webs""traps" and the like and if there was no VOIP, I can imagine the outcome of those fights.
As I said ealier.. I would be comfortable in betting that 99.99% of all ICC raids would fail if you removed ALL addon use and VOIP from the raid.. Next time you wish to raid ICC, turn off your sound, and addons and tell me how well you do.. LOL
PS Edit.. FYI.. every single top ranked arena team uses VOIP, it's only a matter of time, especially with rated BG and the new guild leveling system, that VOIP becomes standard to participate in them..
Frankly WoW's default UI was not adequate even for the basic vanilla WoW raids. Even those fights were too complex for the amount infromation a player has to keep track off.
On the other hand VOIP is completely unnecessary to do the ICC raids if your raid group knows what it is doing.
Personally I find VOIP an invaluable training tool for boss fights as it keeps people aware of what is going on and let's others point out what you are missing. However, once your group gets competent in the fight, it becomes redundant since anything that would be shouted out over VOIP is stuff we now notice normally. Heck, most ToC PuG raids these days do not bother with VOIP anymore since most of the participants know what to look out for and what order to engage the enemies.
So while VOIP is not needed to run any of WoW's content, it gives people an important edge over those who do not. If your raid is highly competent that edge does not really matter but if you are still learning the fights, it makes things much smoother.
Since PvP is all about the 'small edges', VOIP will become a necessity if you want to be competitive as improved communication is a competive necessity in any team sport.
For someone to turn down a deaf person in a group/ raid, etc is completely ridiculous. If a person thinks they are so much better than someone else just because they can hear they should have their eyes poked out. Then let's see how good they can play
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
Well, you could substitute flashing lights as warnings (i.e., like monsters or PVP players are zerging nearby) and that deaf people could pick up on in place of sounds. But then you have a problem for epileptics.
I don't know, one solution leads to another concern.
Well, you could substitute flashing lights as warnings (i.e., like monsters or PVP players are zerging nearby) and that deaf people could pick up on in place of sounds. But then you have a problem for epileptics.
I don't know, one solution leads to another concern.
Well if anyone has seen "Mr. Hollands Opus", which is a damned good movie btw, but he sorta does what you're talking about in lack of sound with light. I mean it works... anyone who's played the old "Dragons' Lair" games with Dirk the Daring knows what I'm talking about, and like I said before, most games are just figuring out patterns with trial and error. It could work, hell might even be better than having over 9000 pop ups spam over a characters head or bars.
Actually... that'd make the game a lil more fun.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I ask this question because of a post I read on the World of Warcraft forums. A gamer who wanted to get into raiding was repeatively turned away by guilds because of his disability. Reason was because they require voice/audio participation while raiding. As much as this makes raiding easier, was it the right thing to do? Would you refuse to play ball with a deaf person because of increased communication issues? I wouldn't, but then that's me..
Where I'm going here is that back before there was the mass ability of raid chat, more raids were done with the use of text only.. I remember my days back in EQ and we only had text chat. Since those days audio chat has become common and widespread.. With this and the addition of automated addons, raiding has become easier and easier.. In my opinion, since audio chat made raids twice as easy to finish, the devs turned about and made the boss encounters twice as hard.. The problem here is that Devs are now designing and tailoring boss encounters with the use of audio chat. Is this the right thing to do?
In my opinion, all encounters in a game should be designed without the influence of 3rd party programs, such as vent, teamspeak, etc or even addons.. I also believe that it's completely irresponsible for devs to ignore the needs of the deaf, or other physical issues. Lets have some compassion and not ignore gamers that are deaf because people thought it was the easier road to take.. If the use of Ventrilo makes a boss fight easier.. so be it.. lets not make boss fights so hard that it's almost impossible to beat without the use of audion chat.. Shame on you devs
This is not a problem with the developers, this is an issue caused by players.
I too raided in EQ for many years, and never used voice while doing it. The requirement people are placing on voice stems from simply being to lazy to type things out, or being to apathetic to even care about another persons limitations.
"I don't care that you are deaf, not my problem, and I'm not going to make room or accommodations for you when there are plenty of other people that can use voice chat"
Trust me, I've run into this attitude plenty of times when dealing with my own physical limitations, and not just in the game world.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
For an mmo a deaf person isn't really ad a disadvantage. In less it's like aoc where you need to really get combos off to survive. But, for something with more automated combat like WoW a deaf person shouldn't have a problem finding people.
I see once again so many have gone off on a tangent of what the topic is about.. It's not a question of "is the game playable" by deaf people, it's about developers disigning encounters where VOIP is factored in. WoW is a perfect example of that such as any enounter in ICC is next to impossible without the use of 3rd party addons. Blizzard knows the heavy use of addons such as healbot and designs their boss fights with that in mind. NOT ONE single boss fight is designed with the use of the default WoW UI.. VOIP is treated the same way.
The ability of people to instantly call out changing effects, and to adjust to the fight using VOIP is indeed something that developers are aware and factor in. Almost all boss fights require the raiders to be mobile and on the move. An avatar that sits still to type is normally dead. Blizzard didn't add their own VOIP to the game, because it was nifty, it was added because they were aware of the VOIP benefit and the importance it was to raiding (which is primarly what the game is about) I"ve head people call out "debuffs" "webs""traps" and the like and if there was no VOIP, I can imagine the outcome of those fights.
As I said ealier.. I would be comfortable in betting that 99.99% of all ICC raids would fail if you removed ALL addon use and VOIP from the raid.. Next time you wish to raid ICC, turn off your sound, and addons and tell me how well you do.. LOL
PS Edit.. FYI.. every single top ranked arena team uses VOIP, it's only a matter of time, especially with rated BG and the new guild leveling system, that VOIP becomes standard to participate in them..
And the required usage of 3'rd party add-ons is a major issue. In my opinion, the game should have never allowed their usage to begin with. (VoiP is a different story, since it does not have to tie into the UI, this is not directly modifying the game).
While I do support customizable UI's, the inclusion of 3'rd party apps to partially automate gameplay is seriously crossing a line.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
For an mmo a deaf person isn't really ad a disadvantage. In less it's like aoc where you need to really get combos off to survive. But, for something with more automated combat like WoW a deaf person shouldn't have a problem finding people.
I agree, since many folks have said they play without sound. I think being blind is more of an issue when playing an MMO. Now, braille keyboards or touch screens might alleviate that, but there still is no substitute for being able to see what the hell is going on.
Comments
Bah its not really the developers its the community of people, and the kids in world of warcraft. I dont join guilds that require people to Download certain addons, or use voice, or ventrilo, or any other type of stuff other than Blizzard Entertainment makes themself, or any other company who made the game, However I will use it if I please to.
The reason is simple, How many idiots dont know how to run a dungeon, sure we get newbs, but I have been running dungeons for many years, I dont need an addon to tell me how much aggro I have, or how much a tank is taking aggro,ect. These type of addons help yes, but to be made a requirement for a guild something I wont do period.
DKP Points are dumb too, Something I also refuse to do, unless Blizzard Entertainment makes an offical database of it, and a list of dkp scores you can bid on items with, ect.
So Yeah I find it highly dumb that someone would not accept a person into their party just because they are Deaf, or have a small disabillity real life. I mean I have problems myself ^-^, and wouldn't like getting declined because of it. I myself have vision problems, and other things so it wouldn't be too nice. But again this is just me.
Nice, but I never said there are no absolutes. If I did, it was in reference to the generalized term in question, "normal."
There is no absolute "normal," because normal is a generalization. You can try and disprove this all you like, but it is simple philosophy and logic. Normal is a generalization, an approximation. I suppose it is possible to have an absolute approximation, but that seems to contradict itself. An approximation is an intentional avoidance of an absolute, in order to offer a generalized answer where an absolute answer is lacking. Right?
If you had an absolute answer, you wouldn't need to approximate.
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist...
http://www.ic3.gov - Internet Crime Complaint Center - Report cyber crimes to the FBI.
http://www.spamcop.net - SpamCop.net - Report spam and scam emails.
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/ - Network Solutions WHOIS - Investigate and reveal suspcious websites.
I have been gaming on and offline since games started. I am a first gen gamer, and I have rarely ever encountered a game that contained any barriers to my play (and the few exceptions were all heavily voice-overed games that made the now-unusual choice not to have subtitle options).
I honestly do not feel sound, voice, or any related aspect are required or in anyway needed to play any game on or offline (again, so long as subtitles are an option for any voice-over work). Being among those who played and raided in Everquest and other first gen mmos, and other games long before voice came to be king, I can say that it was most definitely never an issue and like many modern gadgets, toys and conveniences voice programs in gaming are more a matter of laziness than need. We all sure did fine without remote controls and VoIP before they came along after all.
My only experiences of exclusion and unresponsiveness have been from players and guilds, not from developers or the game design and mechanics.
/agree
Personally the ONLY time where I could think that hearing was of major importance was in EQ while I was a Cleric medding and staring that that goddamned spellbook. If people didn't type "add, aggro, pop" or something like that you had to listen for the audible cues or grunts, offensive spells being cast, footsteps, griffin wings flapping (grr) or the sound of someones spine going "CRUNCH", ect.
Though you saying you played EQ blows my theory out of the water. I always joked with friends that the only "real" reason people played EQ back in the day was because the "DING" was Pavlovian conditioning backed by negative reinforcement (die and lose 5 hours of xp grinding) lol.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Having played with someone that is colorblind and someone that had only one hand, those are just obstacles to overcome. The guild was willing to assist them. Same for vent - in if you want but not mandatory, if you don't though you better know the fight! People in the middle of a fight can't always type out directions to those not in vent. That is the only advantage coordinating movement. Personally I can take or leave vent - generally too much b.s. from the eternally bored, so much easier to avoid it then listen to!
As for the elitist jerks in many raiding guilds - OMG! The epeen is hilarious. Fill out an app, we'll give you a trial run if you can post your gear score and recent dps meters, maybe we'll work you in - it's a bloody game people! That whole farce takes fun out of the game as far as I'm concerned. It's not a group of friends working to achieve something it's elitist snobbery of the worst order.
I don't believe developers should ignore the deaf/blind or any other handicap, but I don't believe they should build a game around it either.
Proud member of Hammerfist Clan Gaming Community.
Currently playing: RIFT, EQ2, WoW, LoTRO
Retired: Warhammer, AoC, EQ
Waiting: SWToR & GW2
I see once again so many have gone off on a tangent of what the topic is about.. It's not a question of "is the game playable" by deaf people, it's about developers disigning encounters where VOIP is factored in. WoW is a perfect example of that such as any enounter in ICC is next to impossible without the use of 3rd party addons. Blizzard knows the heavy use of addons such as healbot and designs their boss fights with that in mind. NOT ONE single boss fight is designed with the use of the default WoW UI.. VOIP is treated the same way.
The ability of people to instantly call out changing effects, and to adjust to the fight using VOIP is indeed something that developers are aware and factor in. Almost all boss fights require the raiders to be mobile and on the move. An avatar that sits still to type is normally dead. Blizzard didn't add their own VOIP to the game, because it was nifty, it was added because they were aware of the VOIP benefit and the importance it was to raiding (which is primarly what the game is about) I"ve head people call out "debuffs" "webs""traps" and the like and if there was no VOIP, I can imagine the outcome of those fights.
As I said ealier.. I would be comfortable in betting that 99.99% of all ICC raids would fail if you removed ALL addon use and VOIP from the raid.. Next time you wish to raid ICC, turn off your sound, and addons and tell me how well you do.. LOL
PS Edit.. FYI.. every single top ranked arena team uses VOIP, it's only a matter of time, especially with rated BG and the new guild leveling system, that VOIP becomes standard to participate in them..
They shouldn't go out of their way. Providing CC, which is pretty standard anyway is about the only reasonable feature anyone should expect. Past that and sorry to say you're being a ^$&#*. Being deaf doesn't preclude you from being unreasonable.
Can you just clarify something are you saying deaf people are unable to use any 3rd part add-ons or is this thread not really about deaf people at all? Either way, your meaning was unclear from the start, I think you should probably stop berating people for not going off on the particular tangent that you wanted.
I can't talk about ICC because I don't play WoW at the moment but I can't think of a single encounter I have seen that couldn't be done perfectly well without the use of VOIP. As I said earlier, not long ago I was in a guild that didn't use VOIP as a matter of choice.
If we're talking about all 3rd party add-ons that's a different matter and a much more complicated question. There is sometimes a fine line between add-ons which simply improve the UI and those which start to spoon feed information to the player. At the upper end of skill add-ons don't help that much because a really good player will know what is going on anyway. Take an add-on like Deadly Boss Mods, the timers help a bit but most of the information it feeds you can also be derived just by looking around and reading the boss emotes. However, I would agree that in general add-ons do make raid encounters easier, especially for players that are not so aware of what is going on around them.
Personally i'd love to see a lot of these raid assisting add-ons removed from games because I think they do remove an element of skill which is already somewhat lacking in MMOs. But I wouldn't like to see all add-ons removed as there are plenty which do nothing but the enhance the game. Of course none of this has anything to do with deaf people.
As far as Arena goes, yeah that's definitely an area where VOIP helps a lot. It is still perfectly possible to enjoy Arena matches regardless but I imagine it is very difficult to compete with top teams without using VOIP. But I guess, though it may seem heartless, I don't believe that VOIP should be removed to create a level playing field for the very small minority who can't use it.
The idea of removing VOIP from MMOs entirely is pretty much a non-starter anyway. Most people use it because they enjoy it, they like chatting to their friends while playing and it has nothing to do with improving performance. I have no idea why we are even discussing it or, indeed, what we are supposed to be discussing
Raids were run before voice chat. You learned to type fast shorthand.
With my final post to this thread I quote Matthew Henry "None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see."..
That's fine, but I really don't understand why you are so dead-set against voice chat. If that's all you wanted to discuss, then why'd you include the poor wittle deaf guy who can't raid because he can't use Vent? That brought in all the discussion about morality, what game devs should do with disabled people, etc. You should've said "I think Vent/voice chat makes MMOs easier and should not be allowed" or something to that effect.
Modern warfare. Advanced communications. Are you going to tell me war has gotten any easier because of it? If it has, it's only because we pack more firepower into weapons than we'd ever realistically use. Not because of better communcations. Similarly, if Blizzard gave every class an insta-kill ability and x1000% damage, the raids would be pretty easy. Vent has nothing to do with that. In fact, using your example, Vent helped foster this newer, more reactive and action-y boss fight, where you have to pay attention and move quickly in order to survive. It's possible if you use Vent, but very difficult if you have to type (unless you type quickly). Most people only use Vent to listen, and they don't communicate anyways, so a guild having Vent as a requirement so the leaders can communicate efficiently makes sense.
Conundrum, isn't it?
The staple for all boss fights, dating back to NES/Arcade days were figuring out the pattern. Boss fight patterns are standard in RPG's too. The thing is back in the day, boss fights were limited by their AI and the game mechanics of that time.
Things have evolved.
So here's the problem. When you fight, say, one of the biggest, baddest things IN THE WHOLE GAME... should it be a simple pattern to figure out so no thought is needed (i.e. megadragon flaps wings once for AoE breath weapon, twice for a trample charge in a straight line, three times when it gets ready to heal) and that's it?
The majority of people who play games enjoy it because of the difficulty, of achieving something that is not simple, or winning period despite the odds against them.
VOIP, however, has made people lazy and dependent on being told what to do. Add On's do just as much. In the end, raids have turned into one huge advanced form of "Simon"+RTS supplemented with a few people on vent telling you what to do while following instructions of what your massive database of add ons tell you to do.
WoW is not a hard game, just the <5% endgame raid content requires everyone to be on the same page, and that's only because <5% leetists bitched and moaned to get it.
So should Devs. change ultimate endgame content to be easy? No. It should be long, difficult, unpredictable AND fun. Like I said before, Mt. Everest should not be wheelchair accessible... but that doesn't mean a person should be barred from trying it.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Frankly WoW's default UI was not adequate even for the basic vanilla WoW raids. Even those fights were too complex for the amount infromation a player has to keep track off.
On the other hand VOIP is completely unnecessary to do the ICC raids if your raid group knows what it is doing.
Personally I find VOIP an invaluable training tool for boss fights as it keeps people aware of what is going on and let's others point out what you are missing. However, once your group gets competent in the fight, it becomes redundant since anything that would be shouted out over VOIP is stuff we now notice normally. Heck, most ToC PuG raids these days do not bother with VOIP anymore since most of the participants know what to look out for and what order to engage the enemies.
So while VOIP is not needed to run any of WoW's content, it gives people an important edge over those who do not. If your raid is highly competent that edge does not really matter but if you are still learning the fights, it makes things much smoother.
Since PvP is all about the 'small edges', VOIP will become a necessity if you want to be competitive as improved communication is a competive necessity in any team sport.
For someone to turn down a deaf person in a group/ raid, etc is completely ridiculous. If a person thinks they are so much better than someone else just because they can hear they should have their eyes poked out. Then let's see how good they can play
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
What does it hurt to put braille on all the keyboards? Wouldn't that solve the problem? I mean, deaf people like to play games too.
WTF! Brail is for the blind not the deaf!
Hmm brail for deaf ppl great idea
So we all acknowledge the problem... question is how does one get around it.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Well, you could substitute flashing lights as warnings (i.e., like monsters or PVP players are zerging nearby) and that deaf people could pick up on in place of sounds. But then you have a problem for epileptics.
I don't know, one solution leads to another concern.
Well if anyone has seen "Mr. Hollands Opus", which is a damned good movie btw, but he sorta does what you're talking about in lack of sound with light. I mean it works... anyone who's played the old "Dragons' Lair" games with Dirk the Daring knows what I'm talking about, and like I said before, most games are just figuring out patterns with trial and error. It could work, hell might even be better than having over 9000 pop ups spam over a characters head or bars.
Actually... that'd make the game a lil more fun.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
This is not a problem with the developers, this is an issue caused by players.
I too raided in EQ for many years, and never used voice while doing it. The requirement people are placing on voice stems from simply being to lazy to type things out, or being to apathetic to even care about another persons limitations.
"I don't care that you are deaf, not my problem, and I'm not going to make room or accommodations for you when there are plenty of other people that can use voice chat"
Trust me, I've run into this attitude plenty of times when dealing with my own physical limitations, and not just in the game world.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
For an mmo a deaf person isn't really ad a disadvantage. In less it's like aoc where you need to really get combos off to survive. But, for something with more automated combat like WoW a deaf person shouldn't have a problem finding people.
And the required usage of 3'rd party add-ons is a major issue. In my opinion, the game should have never allowed their usage to begin with. (VoiP is a different story, since it does not have to tie into the UI, this is not directly modifying the game).
While I do support customizable UI's, the inclusion of 3'rd party apps to partially automate gameplay is seriously crossing a line.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I tell people I am deaf so I dont have to join in on their adolescent phone conversations. i.e Ventrillo, Teamspeak, etc.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I agree, since many folks have said they play without sound. I think being blind is more of an issue when playing an MMO. Now, braille keyboards or touch screens might alleviate that, but there still is no substitute for being able to see what the hell is going on.