Unethical behavior...

HerculesSAS

Despite my problems with how SV develops, and how they market (hype and lies), this really seems to take the cake.

 

Slapshot pointed out something in another thread that I felt deserved its own place, and that is the auto-renew feature that SV has set up in place.

 

Lots of people bought MO, played it, and have written it off entirely. I'm one of those people, obviously -- but my entire guild (7 people) plus many others I've encountered have no interest in playing it at launch. Several of my guildmates have moved onto different games and things, and don't pay MO any attention. For those people, and people like them -- they are set to auto-renew their subscription whether they want to or not.

 

How is this even ethical? Sure, SV may say "oh well you had the option to turn it off" but nobody here said "I accept" to a subscriber agreement yet, have they? They pre-ordered a game. They did not SUBSCRIBE to that game.

 

This is just another in a series of lows that SV is setting the bar for, and I honestly hope that somebody gets burned by this and sues them. Because ultimately, that's what it will come down to. And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

Jakdstripper

that sucks

i also had one of those experiances with Setanta sports provider. i had set up an account for their online broadcast of games but ended up not likeing what they had and decided to cancel. they still charged me the next month even though i had a confirmed cancellation receipt from them. i tryied to cancel my credit card but the bank told me that even if i did if i has agreed to an automatic monthly payment the company could still charge that card indefinately wether i cancelled it or not. i was quite shocked and frankly pissed off.

in the end it took me 5 really nasty emails, with lots of swearing and name calling, to the company to get them to stop charging my card, wich they did after charging me an extra 3 months subscription.

Listening to what OP has to deal makes me extremely leery about SV and makes me think VERY hard about giving them any of my money.

olepi

The worst case of this I've had was with car insurance. They were charging me about $300 a quarter, and I cancelled. They continued to charge me for 3 more quarters! About $900! The local agent told me it can take several months for the auto-charge to drop, and I would get a refund check.

So I called the local agent again, after another couple charges, and said I was coming down, TODAY, to pick up my check! I sounded mad and mentioned filing theft charges. My check was ready when I showed up, but the agent was "out of the office" LOL.

Astralglide

Originally posted by HerculesSAS

Despite my problems with how SV develops, and how they market (hype and lies), this really seems to take the cake.

 

Slapshot pointed out something in another thread that I felt deserved its own place, and that is the auto-renew feature that SV has set up in place.

 

Lots of people bought MO, played it, and have written it off entirely. I'm one of those people, obviously -- but my entire guild (7 people) plus many others I've encountered have no interest in playing it at launch. Several of my guildmates have moved onto different games and things, and don't pay MO any attention. For those people, and people like them -- they are set to auto-renew their subscription whether they want to or not.

 

How is this even ethical? Sure, SV may say "oh well you had the option to turn it off" but nobody here said "I accept" to a subscriber agreement yet, have they? They pre-ordered a game. They did not SUBSCRIBE to that game.

 

This is just another in a series of lows that SV is setting the bar for, and I honestly hope that somebody gets burned by this and sues them. Because ultimately, that's what it will come down to. And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

This goes to all people who run into any situation like this: You need to dispute the charge on your statement. Not only will you get your money back, but VISA/MC?AMEX will punish the perpetrating company for fraudulent charges if there are enough complaints.

Unknown

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that even borderline criminal? All you did was buy the box and 30 days of free time. You never agreed to anything beyond that, neither did you agree that they could use the payment option you entered to purchase your copy. There is a reason why in every other game, you are asked for a subscription plan and for your agreement to be charged for (1 month, 3 months, 6 months...). I'm not a lawyer (or anything) but that sounds shady to me. I will not think about buying the game until they change this.

KilorTheMeek

I think you may be right reijan.  Maybe the laws differ from country to country, but I know in the US that a company is not allowed to bill you a monthly subscription unless you specifically agree to it.  Purchasing a game's client for X dollars does not mean you also agree to purchase the subscription. 

I personally use a different card for any game I sub to as a security precaution, so I would be very put off by any company that automatically uses the card I purchased the client with to pay for my sub...

Slapshot1188

To be fair.. they have NOT yet charged anyone this subscription fee yet as the game hasn't launched.  They did however create the account management site AFTER the pre-orders were processed (months and months after) and by default everyone that I know of shows auto-renew.  This is true even for people that pre-ordered on day one and there was no subscription option even displayed.   I am aware of multiple attempts to get a straight answer from SV regarding this issue and I have never seen a direct reply.  The closest I saw was a reply from a CS rep named "Shady" (You honestly can't make shit like this up) who simply used some doublespeak and a link to the TOS but never directly answered the question.  This leads me.. and many other folks to believe that all pre-order folks have in fact been unilaterally assigned as auto-renew on their subs... even those who wrote the game off 8 months ago when there wasn't even a subscription option (and no way a cancellation option).

 

If this is untrue, SV could of course correct this with a simple and clear statement...

etlar

Originally posted by HerculesSAS

Despite my problems with how SV develops, and how they market (hype and lies), this really seems to take the cake.

 

Slapshot pointed out something in another thread that I felt deserved its own place, and that is the auto-renew feature that SV has set up in place.

 

Lots of people bought MO, played it, and have written it off entirely. I'm one of those people, obviously -- but my entire guild (7 people) plus many others I've encountered have no interest in playing it at launch. Several of my guildmates have moved onto different games and things, and don't pay MO any attention. For those people, and people like them -- they are set to auto-renew their subscription whether they want to or not.

 

How is this even ethical? Sure, SV may say "oh well you had the option to turn it off" but nobody here said "I accept" to a subscriber agreement yet, have they? They pre-ordered a game. They did not SUBSCRIBE to that game.

 

This is just another in a series of lows that SV is setting the bar for, and I honestly hope that somebody gets burned by this and sues them. Because ultimately, that's what it will come down to. And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

You speak of "auto-renew" as if it is a mystery, and even make it sound so good people think you right, are you aware that every single mmo out there does the same= purchase a game, enter credentials, get 30 days free and they "auto-renew" as you call it, you always have to cancel those things.....honestly, i dont even play MO but atleast give a reason to flamebait it. lols.

Agricola1

Originally posted by KilorTheMeek

I think you may be right reijan.  Maybe the laws differ from country to country, but I know in the US that a company is not allowed to bill you a monthly subscription unless you specifically agree to it.  Purchasing a game's client for X dollars does not mean you also agree to purchase the subscription. 

I personally use a different card for any game I sub to as a security precaution, so I would be very put off by any company that automatically uses the card I purchased the client with to pay for my sub...

 This, SV don't ask for you to purchase a subscription or subscription plan so if they took your money it would be theft. Since they haven't charged anyone illegaly for a sub I think the 3 guys that spend alot of time hating on SV need to give it a rest. If SV did charge people without consent then fine but this is like some ****ing crazy minority report campaign being run by a few basement dwellers that got raped by some Swedish sailors or something!

championsFan

I did some reading out of interest (I am not an expert, of course).   In the US taking money from a customers account without their permission is theft under laws dealing with credit card fraud.

 

There are also a set of Federal laws that make it illegal to charge customers for unsolicited goods and services.   These cover the case of getting a bill for an unwanted service, but if the company skips billing you and just takes the money then it becomes theft.

A business that is charging customers this way on a large scale will be targeted for an investigation by the FTC.   It's pretty tough to get away with this kind of fraud, so what concerns me is that SV does not know what they are getting themselves into.   I mean, as bad as things might get I had not pictured any of them doing jail time.

Make sure to ask SV for a refund before doing a chargeback, going straight for the chargeback would be like reflecting their immaturity and lack of professionalism right back at them.

GTwander

Wait, so billing cycles on your credit cards like every other game with a subscription, ever?

~and this game isn't even launched yet, how would they charge you without CC info? I didn't buy the game of course, but I didn't have to put any info down to do the beta. If it cycles post-launch for those that did buy, just cancel now - there has to be an option on the site.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by GTwander

Wait, so billing cycles on your credit cards like every other game with a subscription, ever?

~and this game isn't even launched yet, how would they charge you without CC info? I didn't buy the game of course, but I didn't have to put any info down to do the beta. If it cycles post-launch for those that did buy, just cancel now - there has to be an option on the site.

 When people initially pre-ordered back in July 2009 there WAS no subscription info or options... You were simply purchasing the game.  That is even what my receipt says.  Sometime around a month or so ago they added the new account management stuff which includes the ability to cancel your auto-renewal.

 

Folks that bought the game 9 months ago (just buying the game... not signing up for a sub) who wrote the game off as a bad buy are most likely NOT expecting to see a charge pop up for a subscription next month or the month after... Why would they?

 

Now in your case you didn't pre-order the game 9 months ago, you merely made a free acct for the beta and never entered your CC info... Obviously in your case you won't get charged....

Benthon

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by KilorTheMeek

I think you may be right reijan.  Maybe the laws differ from country to country, but I know in the US that a company is not allowed to bill you a monthly subscription unless you specifically agree to it.  Purchasing a game's client for X dollars does not mean you also agree to purchase the subscription. 

I personally use a different card for any game I sub to as a security precaution, so I would be very put off by any company that automatically uses the card I purchased the client with to pay for my sub...

 This, SV don't ask for you to purchase a subscription or subscription plan so if they took your money it would be theft. Since they haven't charged anyone illegaly for a sub I think the 3 guys that spend alot of time hating on SV need to give it a rest. If SV did charge people without consent then fine but this is like some ****ing crazy minority report campaign being run by a few basement dwellers that got raped by some Swedish sailors or something!

 You realize the person you said "This" to is in contrast to what you just wrote?

For people who just purchased the game before the subscription options were there are going to get billed because their accounts are set to auto-renew.

Realbigdeal

Please, read this thread from the official mortal online forum.. I rather get banned then let that kind of lie spread around.

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/40170-more-mmorpg-com-lies.html

Also, you preorder the game. The auto renewal is not suppose to charge you for 1 month since you already preordered the game. Warhammer did the same. Lotro and all other mmorpg's that had preorder did the same. So why do you guys attack MO and think that it will be a different issue?

Aethaeryn

Are you suggesting that all other games when you pre-order them auto subsribe you based on the CC info you preordered with.  I think not.

HanoverZ

I cant remember a MMO that didnt require me to activate it.

augustgrace

I pre-ordered but ended up doing a charge back after it became clear these guys had no clue what they were doing.  I just checked my old account and it was set to automatically renew and my account is apparently still good.  I suspect there are going to be some extremely pissed folks when the subs "automatically" renew.  These guys are beyond shady.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Realbigdeal

Please, read this thread from the official mortal online forum.. I rather get banned then let that kind of lie spread around.

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/40170-more-mmorpg-com-lies.html

Also, you preorder the game. The auto renewal is not suppose to charge you for 1 month since you already preordered the game. Warhammer did the same. Lotro and all other mmorpg's that had preorder did the same. So why do you guys attack MO and think that it will be a different issue?

How does one auto-renew a subscription when the customer never subscribed?  All these people did was pre-order a game.  They NEVER chose a subscription plan nor gave permission to have a subscription fee charged.  I am speaking of the people that pre-ordered BEFORE the new acct system was in place.. which is likely 90-95% of pre-orders.

 

See in the games you listed.. there was actually a SUBSCRIPTION section where you chose your subscription type (30/60/90) and entered your payment info.  That never happened when these people simply pre-ordered MO...

Shiymmas

Originally posted by Realbigdeal

Please, read this thread from the official mortal online forum.. I rather get banned then let that kind of lie spread around.

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/40170-more-mmorpg-com-lies.html

Also, you preorder the game. The auto renewal is not suppose to charge you for 1 month since you already preordered the game. Warhammer did the same. Lotro and all other mmorpg's that had preorder did the same. So why do you guys attack MO and think that it will be a different issue?

Very much disagree.

 

If what's being said is true (I don't follow MO/don't care), then that's messed up.  If I go to a store and buy a copy of a game, that store had damn sure better not give my CC info to the company whose game I just bought.  Same for if I pre-order, particularly if it's from a vendor that isn't the game company itself.  Starvault should be no different.  If I buy/pre-order the game from them, then that copy should be mine to activate and use whenever I get ready to do so, not when they do, and they definitely have no right to dictate that my free month starts at the game's release and then automatically boot up a recurring sub.  Point is, they're a store at the point of the sale, and that's that.  This is, indeed, borderline criminal, in my opinion.

 

If I'm not understanding the situation correctly, ignore my stupidity.  That's just my take on it from a completely outside perspective that's not paid this game hardly any attention at all.

Got_Game_TV

http://ask.metafilter.com/70992/Credit-AutoRenew

 

Read.

Shiymmas

Originally posted by zekkcc

http://ask.metafilter.com/70992/Credit-AutoRenew

 

Read.

Not sure what relevance that has.

 

The issue as I'm seeing it is that the people in question here never chose a subscription plan to begin with - merely ordered the game, as if through a store, from Starvault.

 

It's one thing if you're dumb enough not to read the fine-print on some things, but it's another thing altogether for them to charge you for something you never agreed to.

Got_Game_TV

Originally posted by Shiymmas

Originally posted by zekkcc

http://ask.metafilter.com/70992/Credit-AutoRenew

 

Read.

Not sure what relevance that has.

 

The issue as I'm seeing it is that the people in question here never chose a subscription plan to begin with - merely ordered the game, as if through a store, from Starvault.

 

It's one thing if you're dumb enough not to read the fine-print on some things, but it's another thing altogether for them to charge you for something you never agreed to.

If you haven't subscribed, they can't charge you at all beyond the game purchase itself...let alone auto-renew.  I don't see what the issue is unless you're making the ASSUMPTION that they're going to charge all the people who are currently freaking out because their status is set to auto-renew.  As far as I'm aware, nobody has been charged ANYTHING and thus...no unethical behaviour.  If they actually charge someone, please let me know.

GetAngry

I don't get what the big deal is, a lot of games do this. Fallen Earth charged you after their trial, I had to cancel it. MO will have to be cancelled to and yes you CAN cancel it.

Subscription renewal

When this setting is activated, your account subscription will automatically be renewed (and charged). If renewal fails you will be notified by email.

Status:

RENEW     DO NOT RENEW    

 

That is copy paste from my account. As you can see, they clearly give me the option to not renew the subscription.

Got_Game_TV

Originally posted by GetAngry

I don't get what the big deal is, a lot of games do this. Fallen Earth charged you after their trial, I had to cancel it.

This has nothing to do with unethical behaviour and everything to do with trolling the game.  So I suppose it makes sense.

Shiymmas

Originally posted by zekkcc

Originally posted by Shiymmas

Originally posted by zekkcc

http://ask.metafilter.com/70992/Credit-AutoRenew

 

Read.

Not sure what relevance that has.

 

The issue as I'm seeing it is that the people in question here never chose a subscription plan to begin with - merely ordered the game, as if through a store, from Starvault.

 

It's one thing if you're dumb enough not to read the fine-print on some things, but it's another thing altogether for them to charge you for something you never agreed to.

If you haven't subscribed, they can't charge you at all beyond the game purchase itself...let alone auto-renew.  I don't see what the issue is unless you're making the ASSUMPTION that they're going to charge all the people who are currently freaking out because their status is set to auto-renew.  As far as I'm aware, nobody has been charged ANYTHING and thus...no unethical behaviour.  If they actually charge someone, please let me know.

Eh, maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but as far as what little I've seen here and on their boards, folks who pre-ordered, and were only purchasing the game, and were not presented with subscription options, are now automatically set up for their time to start immediately at the game's launch (activated or not), and will be charged at the end of the free month.

 

I didn't buy the game, don't plan to, and have no clue what the fine print reads like on their site, but it seems like folks were completely and utterly unaware that by buying the game, they were going to be set up for a subscription.  IF they already knew that'd be the case, that's one thing.  As it stands, it just looks really, really messed up.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by GetAngry

I don't get what the big deal is, a lot of games do this. Fallen Earth charged you after their trial, I had to cancel it. MO will have to be cancelled to and yes you CAN cancel it.

Subscription renewal

When this setting is activated, your account subscription will automatically be renewed (and charged). If renewal fails you will be notified by email.

Status:

RENEW     DO NOT RENEW    

 

That is copy paste from my account. As you can see, they clearly give me the option to not renew the subscription.

 Hi and welcome to MMORPG.COM!  Happy to have you alonng for the ride!

 

Anyhow.. the issue is that the screen you linked was only RECENTLY added.. as in just a few weeks ago.  Folks that simply pre-ordered the game as much as 9 months ago... with no subscription selections even offered... have had their accts set to RENEW.  Even people that gave up on the game 8 months ago... WAY before there was even a subscription option and/or Renew/DoNotRenew section.

 If the website that NOW exists was around when people pre-ordered the game (way back in July 09..) there would be no issue.  A huge chunk (I would say majority but that's just my opinion) of people who did pre-order the game back then have given up and moved on.  They have no idea that SV has signed them up for a subscription and that they will be charged a recurring fee for a game they havent even played in 8 months...

 

Do you regularly visit websites of games that you stopped playing 8 months ago (and never subscribed to) to check and see if the company decided to unilaterally subscribe you to their game and start recurrent billing? 

 

See the difference now?