I preordered way back and there was no subscription options available, I just bought the GAME.
I'm, pretty sure that here in Sweden it's illegal to have a customer even enter an agreement automatically without them accepting it, the customer has to actively choose to agree. We have pretty strict consumer protection laws here.
And I would'nt take the risk to bet that SV won't charge me after the free month is up, so thanks again, I have now set my subscription (which I never agreed to) to not renew.
[Edit: Removed totally pointless rant about SV's professionalism (or lack there of)]
As said, I can agree to disagree. I just do think that when you did pre-order the game you were living under the premiss that not only do you get access to a game's pre-release content (i.e. beta) but you are also given access to the game's servers whence the game releases. This period of access you were promised was to my understanding one month which led me to my conclusion. A somewhat analogical situation was with Aion's pre-orders where you could not access your pre-order free time without accepting to enter your credit card information (that you could later on erase) and this was not, many say, sufficiently underlined before the players made their pre-order.
We can safely say that they should have made their stand more clear, but calling their position unethical or illegal assumes that their sole purpose was to benefit from this confusion, something which I would not be ready to state based on this evidence alone.
Take your analogy... it proves my point. See, NCSOFT required people to actively enter your CC info and select a subscription before playing the game... They did not take your pre-order and automatically enroll you in a recurring sub.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For the paranoid conspiracy theorists from the Mortal forums. Here's a simple analogy for your spys to return with.
Lets say you go to the store right now and buy a boxed copy of EQ2. When you get home, you put it in the closet and forget about it. Would it be ethical for SoE to begin charging you $15 a month at this point?
Because this is precisely the situation for anyone who pre-ordered before the account system was implemented.
For the paranoid conspiracy theorists from the Mortal forums. Here's a simple analogy for your spys to return with.
Lets say you go to the store right now and buy a boxed copy of EQ2. When you get home, you put it in the closet and forget about it. Would it be ethical for SoE to begin charging you $15 a month at this point?
Because this is precisely the situation for anyone who pre-ordered before the account system was implemented.
Great analogy, but i doubt it'll sink in over at MO.
Great analogy, but i doubt it'll sink in over at MO.
I don't know... reading the MO forums I actually get a sense that some people are getting quite concerned about the issue and SV's silence on the matter. Folks are starting to notice that SV is ignoring the question and are openly wondering why. There are multiple posts/threads asking for SV to clarify.. In addition to the ones from a few weeks ago, there was a thread created about the topic 2 days ago that has nearly 1800 views. Agricola and another forum member have also started seperate threads in the ASK A QUESTION section yesterday.
To date, SV has answered all the posts with utter silence, but the mere fact that the people are noticing and asking is a positive sign. Again, all it takes for SV to put this to rest is a few sentences comprising a clear and unambiguous answer.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For the paranoid conspiracy theorists from the Mortal forums. Here's a simple analogy for your spys to return with.
Lets say you go to the store right now and buy a boxed copy of EQ2. When you get home, you put it in the closet and forget about it. Would it be ethical for SoE to begin charging you $15 a month at this point?
Because this is precisely the situation for anyone who pre-ordered before the account system was implemented.
As you sure?
I'm still confused on the matter, as without any official word there's no saying where the truth may lay. I'm all for sticking it to SV if (IF) what is being speculated on turns out to be true.
The only bit of information that doesn't add up, is that they are saying there's no subscription service available at present. Which would mean no one is actually a subscriber yet.
It's something to keep an eye on for sure, especially now that this is out in the open.
I just think everyone should keep it in their mind, that they are saying it won't happen. Once the account system is actually available, we'll know for sure. Which really shouldn't be to much longer if the plan is to release in may.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm pretty sure every P2P MMO out there has you sign up for a monthly, quarterly, or annual sub. Silly me responding to a silly thread.
I'm pretty sure every other MMO doesn't automatically sign you up for a recurring sub the minute you buy the game. Silly me responding to a silly post.
I'm pretty sure every P2P MMO out there has you sign up for a monthly, quarterly, or annual sub. Silly me responding to a silly thread.
Perhaps it might be beneficial to read the thread. The issue is that these people did not "sign up for a monthly, quarterly or annual sub". They simply pre-ordered a game 9 months ago.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm pretty sure every P2P MMO out there has you sign up for a monthly, quarterly, or annual sub. Silly me responding to a silly thread.
I'm pretty sure every other MMO doesn't automatically sign you up for a recurring sub the minute you buy the game. Silly me responding to a silly post.
Not even that.. but they are doing it 9 MONTHS after you bought a game... when a huge chunk of those people don't play any more, don't check the forums.. and think they have been done with Mortal Online since deleting it from their hard-drive 8 months ago...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't understand what the big cry is all about. Even though I have no plans on playing at release SV is doing exactly what every other MMO has done in regards to the subscription fee. It starts when game goes live. If you read their ToS here; https://account.mortalonline.com/public/pdf/terms_conditions.pdf it even says so. And, upon logging into my account manager (located here: https://account.mortalonline.com/account/login.php), I have the option to turn off automatic renewal.
I don't understand what the big cry is all about. Even though I have no plans on playing at release SV is doing exactly what every other MMO has done in regards to the subscription fee. It starts when game goes live. If you read their ToS here; https://account.mortalonline.com/public/pdf/terms_conditions.pdf it even says so. And, upon logging into my account manager (located here: https://account.mortalonline.com/account/login.php), I have the option to turn off automatic renewal.
So whats with the crying? I don't get it...
Did you even read the topic? After 9 months, SV decided to place people that preordered the game to auto-renew a subscription that the people that preordered never actually subscribed to. It's really not that complicated.
-------- "Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt: Front: UNO Chemistry Club Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
I don't understand what the big cry is all about. Even though I have no plans on playing at release SV is doing exactly what every other MMO has done in regards to the subscription fee. It starts when game goes live. If you read their ToS here; https://account.mortalonline.com/public/pdf/terms_conditions.pdf it even says so. And, upon logging into my account manager (located here: https://account.mortalonline.com/account/login.php), I have the option to turn off automatic renewal.
So whats with the crying? I don't get it...
1) People that preordered the game 9 MONTHS AGO will supposively get charged a monthly fee that THEY NEVER SIGNED UP FOR.
2) Normal MMOs usually have a subscription page where you add your credit card to start the subscription, select how many months, etc. MO did not ever have that on startup, they just assume everyone wants to pay $15 a month. Illegal and will cause lawsuits and many credit card disputes if they actually go through with this...
Just like what others have said... think about activating your AION account and it auto charging your credit card when you never signed up for a subscription. That is illegal to charge someone for something they never agreed to 9 months ago...
Note that there is still no response from SV to any of the requests for clarification. It seems even the Community Manager is confused by the policy:
[21:20] <Maerlyn> yes, I'm aware of that
[21:20] <Maerlyn> I already had a word with management about this
[21:21] <Maerlyn> I'll update the community as soon as I have news regarding this
IRC chat from this post (below).. of course.. he hasn't replied to any of the many forum requests.. just a blurb on the "unofficial" IRC. This is after weeks of requests, multiple threads and thousand of views...
I love the supposed beaurocracy... in a company of maybe 20 employees. I hope no lightbulbs blow out in the office or they may not be able to work in the evenings for a few weeks while they communicate the issues through proper channels..
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What astounds me the most is how little common sense all the people ranting about suing SV have, you don't need a law degree to understand and know the following:
1) SV is a SWEDISH company with NO assets in the US.
2) US courts have no jurisdiction outside of the US.
3) Even If you did indeed succeed in the impossible task of actually bringing such a matter to trial, what could any US court actually do in terms of an achievable sentance? It has no authority to compel a foreign company outside of the US to do ANYTHING short of attaching assets belonging to the company which are inside the US (which SV doesn't have)
The only courses of action available to anyone in the US (or outside of Sweden and the EU for that matter) would be to:
1) contact their CC co and cancel payment.
2) Fly to Sweden and take up the matter in a small claims court and get your $15 back.
For the love of god, please use your brain for 2 seconds before you go on ranting about suing somebody.
Finally, SV has NOT CHARGED ANYONE for subscriptions yet! They have not engaged in any unethical or fraudulent behaviour and realistically if they contact you via email and inform you of the auto charge feature on their account management site before the launch of MO then all of this becomes moot in any case.
As said, I can agree to disagree. I just do think that when you did pre-order the game you were living under the premiss that not only do you get access to a game's pre-release content (i.e. beta) but you are also given access to the game's servers whence the game releases. This period of access you were promised was to my understanding one month which led me to my conclusion. A somewhat analogical situation was with Aion's pre-orders where you could not access your pre-order free time without accepting to enter your credit card information (that you could later on erase) and this was not, many say, sufficiently underlined before the players made their pre-order.
We can safely say that they should have made their stand more clear, but calling their position unethical or illegal assumes that their sole purpose was to benefit from this confusion, something which I would not be ready to state based on this evidence alone.
Take your analogy... it proves my point. See, NCSOFT required people to actively enter your CC info and select a subscription before playing the game... They did not take your pre-order and automatically enroll you in a recurring sub.
I don't know how much it does prove that in the end. If you follow the Aion pre-order campaign (e.g. in their official website) there is no mention that you would have to enter any validation data in order to participate on the head start nor for the closed beta testing. As such, it is an analogous situation with what we see in here with Star Vault. The difference is that whereas Aion would not let you even create an account without providing this information -- you could buy a game for 50 (units of your prefered currency) and get nothing, nada, if you did not have a credit card -- Star Vault provided access but "tricked" their customers to auto-subscription (and this only to those who did pre-order using their credit card and not other methods of payment).
I fully understand your concern as it is a silly procedure within which they have forced their customers, but in all honesty, do you think that people did not pre-order the game with an assumption that they will also gain access to the actual game once launched. As it stand, people are trying to claim that they just pre-ordered access to closed beta testing with no intention ever to play the game, which to me, sounds rather curious. The problem from Star Vault's side is that they are not upright with these changes, like you have correctly stated on a number of occassions. I doubt that anyone would object this procedure (hence why I said that it is hardly illegal or even unethical) would they provide a clear and precise statement that would be sent to e-mail address of everyone that has signed to their game. A simple thing would make a world of difference here but with their past PR record it might be that it is too much to ask, which is a pity.
I fully understand your concern as it is a silly procedure within which they have forced their customers, but in all honesty, do you think that people did not pre-order the game with an assumption that they will also gain access to the actual game once launched. As it stand, people are trying to claim that they just pre-ordered access to closed beta testing with no intention ever to play the game, which to me, sounds rather curious. The problem from Star Vault's side is that they are not upright with these changes, like you have correctly stated on a number of occassions. I doubt that anyone would object this procedure (hence why I said that it is hardly illegal or even unethical) would they provide a clear and precise statement that would be sent to e-mail address of everyone that has signed to their game. A simple thing would make a world of difference here but with their past PR record it might be that it is too much to ask, which is a pity.
(WORST MESSAGE EDITOR EVER!!!)
Anyhow.. the main fact that I don;t think you are fully appreciating is that folks pre-ordered this game 9 months ago.. BEFORE there was any subscription option which exists today. When they pre-ordered I am sure they planed to play on release but a huge (and just check the official forums from July to date for support) number of people looked at the state of the game and said "no way.. maybe i'll look back in a year. Maybe not", and uninstalled the game. Now if there was an actual subscription agreement or choice when they BOUGHT the game I would say that this doesn't differ much from most games (except for being able to choose when to start your free month and thus trigger subscription). Since there was no info/notice about any subscription and there was no cancel sub option available.. Those people are NOT expecting to be charged. Again, simply browse the forums for the "thanks for the heads up.. I have set my acct to DO NOT REVIEW.." messages.
The problem is that these people that gave up on the game 9 months ago have NO IDEA that StarVault has unilaterally changed their accounts to show an automatic subscription renewal. This is a KEY difference from other games. The subscription service/choices/cancel options were not even in existance for the total duration that these folks bought, installed and played the game (beta).
Anyhow.. it appears that we have caught the attention of StarVault and they are promising a reply at some point. Of course.. from this process we can surely infer that at least the original plan was to charge all of these people. Otherwise the Community Manager would simply have put the issue to rest with a simple statement saying that anyone who didn't actively chose or accept a subscription would be billed. Instead he is waiting on a management decision which will either be to continue with their billing plan.. or to announce a change (and I am sure the announcement will be couched in phrases that make it seem as though this was the plan all along).
It's Friday.. one would hope to see the response today and then hopefully this issue will be laid to rest.
PS: Simply Emailing people and telling them they will be billed is NOT an acceptable response either. People have to actively accept the charge. For instance a company can't just spam email to former customers saying that they are going to send them the New Improved Ginsu Knife collection because the previously purchased the Original Ginsu Knife unless they log into their new website and cancel the order.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well.. Friday has now come and gone.. STILL no response from StarVault.
For those that always talk about the wonderful communication from SV.. THIS is exactly what we mean when we say that their communication is horrible. This has hung around for weeks while they hoped it would simply go away. Now the issue has been on the front burner for 3 days.
The best response so far is a rumored statement by the Community Manager made in IRC where he said he had no answer yet..
Since the game was delayed 3 days before release one would HOPE that they knew how/who they were planning to bill when they went live. It appears painfully obvious that they are either hoping the issue will go away again.. or they are trying to draft some statement that let's them save face. To take this long to answer a basic question about subscriptions is utterly embarassing for them, even moreso since the game was supposed to be live a week and a half ago.
I think it might be time to ask a journalist to start doing some investigating.. gather the facts about the matter.. and get them published.
Edit to add:
PS: Dev Tracker shows 1 whole post in the month of April from the Community Manager. This is it in it's entirety:
document.write(toLocalTime(1270398480)) Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:28 pm
So I made a typo... big deal :P
In my defense. "U" and "I" are next to each other
Yup.. that's the sum total of his posts since the month started... not like there are any important issues floating around out there that might need to be addressed...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maerlyn checked in on the post on the MO forums, here's what he had to say:
"As I mentioned on the forums and the IRC before - I am fully aware of both the situation and the reason why some people feel upset about this.
I brought this up with management and I expect to be able to give you an official statement/update about this next week."
Yes.. seems he reads these forums regularly. I wonder which poster he is.. Anyhow, after my little tweak about his having 1 post all month he went on a flurry today. The Dev tracker doesn't show them yet but there were a sizeable number of posts he made on the forums today.
Also, I guess this is confirmation that they were at least PLANNING to charge all those pre-order folks. Otherwise there would be no reason for some people to feel upset (to paraphrase him). The questions now are: Do they do the right thing and ditch this crazy idea? Do they forge ahead with it as they have already counted those subs as revenue? Do they send out an Email to all pre-orders stating their intent?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not entirely true. He said he realizes why people would be upset about this meaning the perception that they will be charged without their authorization. It doesn't really give you an affirmative on whether that perception was correct to begin with.
Comments
Thanks for the heads-up Hercules.
I preordered way back and there was no subscription options available, I just bought the GAME.
I'm, pretty sure that here in Sweden it's illegal to have a customer even enter an agreement automatically without them accepting it, the customer has to actively choose to agree. We have pretty strict consumer protection laws here.
And I would'nt take the risk to bet that SV won't charge me after the free month is up, so thanks again, I have now set my subscription (which I never agreed to) to not renew.
[Edit: Removed totally pointless rant about SV's professionalism (or lack there of)]
Take your analogy... it proves my point. See, NCSOFT required people to actively enter your CC info and select a subscription before playing the game... They did not take your pre-order and automatically enroll you in a recurring sub.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Two additional threads have been created today asking for SV to clarify the situation:
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/40201-after-launch-will-sv-auto-charge-me-subscription.html
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/40211-auto-subscribe-clarification.html
So far both have received the same response as the requests made yesterday.. in other words.. no response from SV...
We shall see... just a few words could easilly clear up any and all confusion.. if they are the right words and not more doublespeak.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For the paranoid conspiracy theorists from the Mortal forums. Here's a simple analogy for your spys to return with.
Lets say you go to the store right now and buy a boxed copy of EQ2. When you get home, you put it in the closet and forget about it. Would it be ethical for SoE to begin charging you $15 a month at this point?
Because this is precisely the situation for anyone who pre-ordered before the account system was implemented.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
Great analogy, but i doubt it'll sink in over at MO.
I win!!! LOL@U
I don't know... reading the MO forums I actually get a sense that some people are getting quite concerned about the issue and SV's silence on the matter. Folks are starting to notice that SV is ignoring the question and are openly wondering why. There are multiple posts/threads asking for SV to clarify.. In addition to the ones from a few weeks ago, there was a thread created about the topic 2 days ago that has nearly 1800 views. Agricola and another forum member have also started seperate threads in the ASK A QUESTION section yesterday.
To date, SV has answered all the posts with utter silence, but the mere fact that the people are noticing and asking is a positive sign. Again, all it takes for SV to put this to rest is a few sentences comprising a clear and unambiguous answer.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As you sure?
I'm still confused on the matter, as without any official word there's no saying where the truth may lay. I'm all for sticking it to SV if (IF) what is being speculated on turns out to be true.
The only bit of information that doesn't add up, is that they are saying there's no subscription service available at present. Which would mean no one is actually a subscriber yet.
It's something to keep an eye on for sure, especially now that this is out in the open.
I just think everyone should keep it in their mind, that they are saying it won't happen. Once the account system is actually available, we'll know for sure. Which really shouldn't be to much longer if the plan is to release in may.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm pretty sure every P2P MMO out there has you sign up for a monthly, quarterly, or annual sub. Silly me responding to a silly thread.
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
I'm pretty sure every other MMO doesn't automatically sign you up for a recurring sub the minute you buy the game. Silly me responding to a silly post.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
Perhaps it might be beneficial to read the thread. The issue is that these people did not "sign up for a monthly, quarterly or annual sub". They simply pre-ordered a game 9 months ago.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not even that.. but they are doing it 9 MONTHS after you bought a game... when a huge chunk of those people don't play any more, don't check the forums.. and think they have been done with Mortal Online since deleting it from their hard-drive 8 months ago...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't understand what the big cry is all about. Even though I have no plans on playing at release SV is doing exactly what every other MMO has done in regards to the subscription fee. It starts when game goes live. If you read their ToS here; https://account.mortalonline.com/public/pdf/terms_conditions.pdf it even says so. And, upon logging into my account manager (located here: https://account.mortalonline.com/account/login.php), I have the option to turn off automatic renewal.
So whats with the crying? I don't get it...
Did you even read the topic? After 9 months, SV decided to place people that preordered the game to auto-renew a subscription that the people that preordered never actually subscribed to. It's really not that complicated.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
1) People that preordered the game 9 MONTHS AGO will supposively get charged a monthly fee that THEY NEVER SIGNED UP FOR.
2) Normal MMOs usually have a subscription page where you add your credit card to start the subscription, select how many months, etc. MO did not ever have that on startup, they just assume everyone wants to pay $15 a month. Illegal and will cause lawsuits and many credit card disputes if they actually go through with this...
Just like what others have said... think about activating your AION account and it auto charging your credit card when you never signed up for a subscription. That is illegal to charge someone for something they never agreed to 9 months ago...
Do you still not understand?
Note that there is still no response from SV to any of the requests for clarification. It seems even the Community Manager is confused by the policy:
[21:20] <Maerlyn> yes, I'm aware of that
[21:20] <Maerlyn> I already had a word with management about this
[21:21] <Maerlyn> I'll update the community as soon as I have news regarding this
IRC chat from this post (below).. of course.. he hasn't replied to any of the many forum requests.. just a blurb on the "unofficial" IRC. This is after weeks of requests, multiple threads and thousand of views...
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/825796-post159.html
I love the supposed beaurocracy... in a company of maybe 20 employees. I hope no lightbulbs blow out in the office or they may not be able to work in the evenings for a few weeks while they communicate the issues through proper channels..
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"I'd bet money that people will not have to manually cancel their accounts. SV will change it. Wait and see I guess."
I'd bet if it wasn't for posts like this it wouldnt change. SVs been called out...
They really dont have an option now.
I win!!! LOL@U
What astounds me the most is how little common sense all the people ranting about suing SV have, you don't need a law degree to understand and know the following:
1) SV is a SWEDISH company with NO assets in the US.
2) US courts have no jurisdiction outside of the US.
3) Even If you did indeed succeed in the impossible task of actually bringing such a matter to trial, what could any US court actually do in terms of an achievable sentance? It has no authority to compel a foreign company outside of the US to do ANYTHING short of attaching assets belonging to the company which are inside the US (which SV doesn't have)
The only courses of action available to anyone in the US (or outside of Sweden and the EU for that matter) would be to:
1) contact their CC co and cancel payment.
2) Fly to Sweden and take up the matter in a small claims court and get your $15 back.
For the love of god, please use your brain for 2 seconds before you go on ranting about suing somebody.
Finally, SV has NOT CHARGED ANYONE for subscriptions yet! They have not engaged in any unethical or fraudulent behaviour and realistically if they contact you via email and inform you of the auto charge feature on their account management site before the launch of MO then all of this becomes moot in any case.
edit: (no discalification here)
I don't know how much it does prove that in the end. If you follow the Aion pre-order campaign (e.g. in their official website) there is no mention that you would have to enter any validation data in order to participate on the head start nor for the closed beta testing. As such, it is an analogous situation with what we see in here with Star Vault. The difference is that whereas Aion would not let you even create an account without providing this information -- you could buy a game for 50 (units of your prefered currency) and get nothing, nada, if you did not have a credit card -- Star Vault provided access but "tricked" their customers to auto-subscription (and this only to those who did pre-order using their credit card and not other methods of payment).
I fully understand your concern as it is a silly procedure within which they have forced their customers, but in all honesty, do you think that people did not pre-order the game with an assumption that they will also gain access to the actual game once launched. As it stand, people are trying to claim that they just pre-ordered access to closed beta testing with no intention ever to play the game, which to me, sounds rather curious. The problem from Star Vault's side is that they are not upright with these changes, like you have correctly stated on a number of occassions. I doubt that anyone would object this procedure (hence why I said that it is hardly illegal or even unethical) would they provide a clear and precise statement that would be sent to e-mail address of everyone that has signed to their game. A simple thing would make a world of difference here but with their past PR record it might be that it is too much to ask, which is a pity.
(WORST MESSAGE EDITOR EVER!!!)
Anyhow.. the main fact that I don;t think you are fully appreciating is that folks pre-ordered this game 9 months ago.. BEFORE there was any subscription option which exists today. When they pre-ordered I am sure they planed to play on release but a huge (and just check the official forums from July to date for support) number of people looked at the state of the game and said "no way.. maybe i'll look back in a year. Maybe not", and uninstalled the game. Now if there was an actual subscription agreement or choice when they BOUGHT the game I would say that this doesn't differ much from most games (except for being able to choose when to start your free month and thus trigger subscription). Since there was no info/notice about any subscription and there was no cancel sub option available.. Those people are NOT expecting to be charged. Again, simply browse the forums for the "thanks for the heads up.. I have set my acct to DO NOT REVIEW.." messages.
The problem is that these people that gave up on the game 9 months ago have NO IDEA that StarVault has unilaterally changed their accounts to show an automatic subscription renewal. This is a KEY difference from other games. The subscription service/choices/cancel options were not even in existance for the total duration that these folks bought, installed and played the game (beta).
Anyhow.. it appears that we have caught the attention of StarVault and they are promising a reply at some point. Of course.. from this process we can surely infer that at least the original plan was to charge all of these people. Otherwise the Community Manager would simply have put the issue to rest with a simple statement saying that anyone who didn't actively chose or accept a subscription would be billed. Instead he is waiting on a management decision which will either be to continue with their billing plan.. or to announce a change (and I am sure the announcement will be couched in phrases that make it seem as though this was the plan all along).
It's Friday.. one would hope to see the response today and then hopefully this issue will be laid to rest.
PS: Simply Emailing people and telling them they will be billed is NOT an acceptable response either. People have to actively accept the charge. For instance a company can't just spam email to former customers saying that they are going to send them the New Improved Ginsu Knife collection because the previously purchased the Original Ginsu Knife unless they log into their new website and cancel the order.
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Well.. Friday has now come and gone.. STILL no response from StarVault.
For those that always talk about the wonderful communication from SV.. THIS is exactly what we mean when we say that their communication is horrible. This has hung around for weeks while they hoped it would simply go away. Now the issue has been on the front burner for 3 days.
The best response so far is a rumored statement by the Community Manager made in IRC where he said he had no answer yet..
Since the game was delayed 3 days before release one would HOPE that they knew how/who they were planning to bill when they went live. It appears painfully obvious that they are either hoping the issue will go away again.. or they are trying to draft some statement that let's them save face. To take this long to answer a basic question about subscriptions is utterly embarassing for them, even moreso since the game was supposed to be live a week and a half ago.
I think it might be time to ask a journalist to start doing some investigating.. gather the facts about the matter.. and get them published.
Edit to add:
PS: Dev Tracker shows 1 whole post in the month of April from the Community Manager. This is it in it's entirety:
Server Restart FAIL
Maerlyn
document.write(toLocalTime(1270398480)) Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:28 pm
So I made a typo... big deal :P
In my defense. "U" and "I" are next to each other
Yup.. that's the sum total of his posts since the month started... not like there are any important issues floating around out there that might need to be addressed...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maerlyn checked in on the post on the MO forums, here's what he had to say:
"As I mentioned on the forums and the IRC before - I am fully aware of both the situation and the reason why some people feel upset about this.
I brought this up with management and I expect to be able to give you an official statement/update about this next week."
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Yes.. seems he reads these forums regularly. I wonder which poster he is.. Anyhow, after my little tweak about his having 1 post all month he went on a flurry today. The Dev tracker doesn't show them yet but there were a sizeable number of posts he made on the forums today.
Also, I guess this is confirmation that they were at least PLANNING to charge all those pre-order folks. Otherwise there would be no reason for some people to feel upset (to paraphrase him). The questions now are: Do they do the right thing and ditch this crazy idea? Do they forge ahead with it as they have already counted those subs as revenue? Do they send out an Email to all pre-orders stating their intent?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not entirely true. He said he realizes why people would be upset about this meaning the perception that they will be charged without their authorization. It doesn't really give you an affirmative on whether that perception was correct to begin with.
http://www.twitch.tv/got_game_tv/ (livestream)
The War Z Shenanigans(youtube)
DayZ FUNTIME!
Mortal Online Vids