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Unethical behavior...

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  • GetAngryGetAngry Member Posts: 8

    I pre-ordered the first day pre-orders went out. I have been with the game since then I plan to stay with it, so yes I do check and when I do pre-order a game, I plan on sticking around till release and I don't just dump it, waste of money to do that. Maybe people should take a little responsibility and take the 10 seconds it takes to cancel it. It's not like they don't know that auto-resub exists.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,714

    Originally posted by Shiymmas

    Eh, maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but as far as what little I've seen here and on their boards, folks who pre-ordered, and were only purchasing the game, and were not presented with subscription options, are now automatically set up for their time to start immediately at the game's launch (activated or not), and will be charged at the end of the free month.

     

    I didn't buy the game, don't plan to, and have no clue what the fine print reads like on their site, but it seems like folks were completely and utterly unaware that by buying the game, they were going to be set up for a subscription.  IF they already knew that'd be the case, that's one thing.  As it stands, it just looks really, really messed up.

     YES!!!

     

    You perfectly understand the situation.. perhaps your description is more eloquent and will better explain the situation to other readers.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Member UncommonPosts: 262

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

     Here's whats being said.......

    People have already dropped MO and aren't looking back. They never agreed to any subscription at all. They likely have no idea they need to cancel the auto-renew seeing that they never signed up for or agreed to any subscription. With SV having everyone on auto-renew regardless of them agreeing to a subscription or signing up for a subscription SV is now garunteed to charge individuals that did not and do not wished to be charged. They are garunteed to be charging individuals that don't even realize they need to cancel a subscription because they never set one up.

     

    And no this isn't like what any other MMO does. Every other MMO ,and yes I do mean "EVERY" , has you agree to a subscription prior to charging you or setting up any subscriptions. It's illegal to do otherwise. When, not if, SV charges any of these individuals they will have broken the law. A thread on this was a good idea because I can garuntee you there are probably a good number of folks out there unaware of the fact that they need to cancel a subscription they never set up or agreed to pay.

     

    The reason I say they will charge is because thats what an Auto renew is. They can't setup an auto-renew without payment information, meaning they already have that payment information already setup. If the payment info is there and the sub is set to auto renew it's going to be charged.

  • ShiymmasShiymmas Member UncommonPosts: 587

    Originally posted by zekkcc



    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

    This much I agree with.

     

    That said, there's no reason for people not to assume at this particular moment that they won't be charged when that free month is up, and that's where the issue lies.

     

    So far, no harm - no foul.  Like I said earlier, I'm just playing devil's advocate.  I do think it'll be interesting to see as it goes along, however.

     

    One thing I am lost on, though, is why the hell the "free" month automatically fires up when the game goes live.  That's something I've never seen.  The post describing it says that "It's both a matter of technical difficulties and an unanimous management decision that states that the free month will begin the day MO goes live."  Pretty poor management, imo.  Like I also said earlier, I've not been a follower of MO, and I've dodged it tbh, in hopes that something good may come of it after my disappointment with Darkfall, but at this point I'd just as soon avoid this company, speculation and assumptions, or not.  Time will indeed tell.

    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
    George Bernard Shaw


    “What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
    Oscar Wilde

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,714

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

     I did state this in my first post in this thread.... http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3483719

     

    Also.. as I said in that post all SV has to do is make a short 1-2 line statement that clears the issue up.  Simply say they will NOT be auto subscribing those folks that simply pre-ordered the game.   SV has been asked for clarification on numerous occassions (for weeks) and they have skirted a direct answer.  That, coupled by the fact that the accts in question now say RENEW.. lends legitimate concern to this issue.

     

    The way the acct page now reads.. SV is TELLING these people they are going to RENEW their subscription (which they never opted into).  Why wouldn't we believe what the screen shows?  Particularly in the absense of any information to the contrary and what little info is provided by a CS guy named "Shady".... (seriously?!?)

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • downtoearthdowntoearth Member Posts: 3,558

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

     except there telling you before hand so that makes it not illegal

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,714

    Originally posted by downtoearth

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

     except there telling you before hand so that makes it not illegal

     So they told the people that pre-ordered in July that this was going to happen?  I must have missed that.. please link me where this was done.  I know I pre-ordered and I was NEVER informed of this at the time of purchase and the only way I found out was by looking on their forums 8 months later...  but if you have something else that supports your statement please share!

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Member UncommonPosts: 262

    Originally posted by downtoearth



    Originally posted by zekkcc


    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

     except there telling you before hand so that makes it not illegal

    Well, the thing is none of these players who purchased the game has agreed to purchase anything more than the game itself.  If you go buy most MMORPGs in the store, you can pretty much choose when to activate it.  At that time you'd probably be notified that the game will automatically renew itself unless you cancel.  Since MO had preorders, lots of people have purchased the game.  Combined with the fact that the first month automatically starts whenever they decide to release....People who aren't even planning on subscribing (all they've done is purchase the game and a free month, after all) will be charged for a subscription fee when the free month is over. 

     

    Since they haven't done this yet (nobody has been charged), this is probably an attempt at trolling the game.  It would be exceptionally odd, as well, for SV to not have discussed all their business practices with an attorney. Even with a company like SV, things like that are usually taken care of.

  • downtoearthdowntoearth Member Posts: 3,558

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by downtoearth



    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    See the difference now?

     

    I'm gonna take this one a step at a time. 

    SV hasn't charged anyone.  Stay with me here. 

    Since SV hasn't charged anyone, there's no reason beyond your assumption (based on your negatively biased perspective) that they will one day do so and claim that everyone had the chance to change their subscription.  Now, I'm not a genius....but as far as I'm aware nobody is capable of predicting the future. 

    Now if SV decides to go ahead and charge people after the duration of the free month has expired...then that would be unethical and probably illegal.  This is assuming that whatever legal jargon you agreed to didn't specify that this would happen.

     except there telling you before hand so that makes it not illegal

    Well, the thing is none of these players who purchased the game has agreed to purchase anything more than the game itself.  If you go buy most MMORPGs in the store, you can pretty much choose when to activate it.  At that time you'd probably be notified that the game will automatically renew itself unless you cancel.  Since MO had preorders, lots of people have purchased the game.  Combined with the fact that the first month automatically starts whenever they decide to release....People who aren't even planning on subscribing (all they've done is purchase the game and a free month, after all) will be charged for a subscription fee when the free month is over. 

     

    Since they haven't done this yet (nobody has been charged), this is probably an attempt at trolling the game.  It would be exceptionally odd, as well, for SV to not have discussed all their business practices with an attorney. Even with a company like SV, things like that are usually taken care of.

     im not saying its right but there is no law saying its illegal is all im saying. now if they didnt tell us before said thing happen then that would be a diffrent story. im of course on a huge break from Mo until the engine upgrade and atlas upgrade. im playing wurm now that game is complicated just the animations seriously need redone : (

  • randomtrandomt Member UncommonPosts: 1,220

    Thanks for sharing the info. I've gone and turned mine off now that I know about it.

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Member UncommonPosts: 262

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

    You're gonna sue SV for like what... $15? 

  • ShiymmasShiymmas Member UncommonPosts: 587

    Originally posted by randomt



    Thanks for sharing the info. I've gone and turned mine off now that I know about it.

     

    Further proof that a negative can turn into a positive.

     

    Doin good work here folks.  Damn fine work.

    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
    George Bernard Shaw


    “What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
    Oscar Wilde

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Member UncommonPosts: 262

    Originally posted by Shiymmas



    Originally posted by randomt



    Thanks for sharing the info. I've gone and turned mine off now that I know about it.

     

    Further proof that a negative can turn into a positive.

     

    Doin good work here folks.  Damn fine work.

    Hypothetical positive.  image

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

    You're gonna sue SV for like what... $15? 

     You can sue for more than just a refund. If a judge finds in favor of a claim like this there are a multitude of penalties, fines and other legal actions that can be taken.

    Now in a case like this if a person is basically forced to pay for something they do not want to pay for and have zero say in the matter you can be assured that SV will be hit with a good bit more than forced to return that $15.

  • describabledescribable Member UncommonPosts: 407

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

    You're gonna sue SV for like what... $15? 

     You can sue for more than just a refund. If a judge finds in favor of a claim like this there are a multitude of penalties, fines and other legal actions that can be taken.

    Now in a case like this if a person is basically forced to pay for something they do not want to pay for and have zero say in the matter you can be assured that SV will be hit with a good bit more than forced to return that $15.

     

    in britain, we'd call it "small claims court" not sure what the american equivalent is (i'm not american so i don't need to know lol) but i'm sure there is one. And you guys do like to sue... so no doubt there's probably special deals..

    *psycological damage, yadda yadda.... Americans really rule the world for suing and getting as much money as possible.

     

    yes my sarcasm is strong but i'm half serious

    "nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Member UncommonPosts: 262

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79



    Originally posted by zekkcc


    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

    You're gonna sue SV for like what... $15? 

     You can sue for more than just a refund. If a judge finds in favor of a claim like this there are a multitude of penalties, fines and other legal actions that can be taken.

    Now in a case like this if a person is basically forced to pay for something they do not want to pay for and have zero say in the matter you can be assured that SV will be hit with a good bit more than forced to return that $15.

    Lol. No.

  • GetAngryGetAngry Member Posts: 8

    "Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your

    account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your

    subscription. You may do so at any time by logging onto the "account management" site on

    www.mortalonline.com, and there use the "cancel subscription" option. Your account will stay open

    until the end of the current billing cycle."

    In terms and conditions PDF on the side of the account creation page. Dated 2009-07-13, the day pre-orders opened up. Maybe we should wait until some real proof comes up because as far as I'm concerned when I pre-ordered I didn't select any method and right there they clearly state "once you choose a subscription method".

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775

    Originally posted by describable

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

    You're gonna sue SV for like what... $15? 

     You can sue for more than just a refund. If a judge finds in favor of a claim like this there are a multitude of penalties, fines and other legal actions that can be taken.

    Now in a case like this if a person is basically forced to pay for something they do not want to pay for and have zero say in the matter you can be assured that SV will be hit with a good bit more than forced to return that $15.

     

    in britain, we'd call it "small claims court" not sure what the american equivalent is (i'm not american so i don't need to know lol) but i'm sure there is one. And you guys do like to sue... so no doubt there's probably special deals..

    *psycological damage, yadda yadda.... Americans really rule the world for suing and getting as much money as possible.

     lol the sad thing is it used to be a lot worse. People getting millions because they spilled hot coffee on themselve's or getting millions because fast food made them fat.

    Monetary compensation is just one of many things that can be gained by a lawsuit though. Regulations can even be imposed on a company due to a lawsuit. And again this gets worse considering this would be treated as theft so a lawsuit would just be the beggining of the problem. With the way the US laws are each individual counts as a charge meaning if 100 people were charged without agreeing to be charged SV will be faced with 100 counts of theft.

    It's not as laughable as some would think, trust me.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79



    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.

    You're gonna sue SV for like what... $15? 

     You can sue for more than just a refund. If a judge finds in favor of a claim like this there are a multitude of penalties, fines and other legal actions that can be taken.

    Now in a case like this if a person is basically forced to pay for something they do not want to pay for and have zero say in the matter you can be assured that SV will be hit with a good bit more than forced to return that $15.

    Lol. No.

     I can garuntee you it's a yes :)

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Member UncommonPosts: 262

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

    I can garuntee you it's a yes :)

     

    Dude.  No offense but you can't even spell guarantee let alone do it.  image

  • GetAngryGetAngry Member Posts: 8

    Also, to add to my last post, just because the auto-renewal feature is turned on in my account does not mean they will be charging me. It could simply mean that if I do select a monthly subscription rate, they will automatically renew it whenever it runs out. I could choose to cancel that and resub manually if I wish. Again, we need to wait for real proof.

     

    People talking about suing, please stay on topic of the thread.

  • describabledescribable Member UncommonPosts: 407

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

     lol the sad thing is it used to be a lot worse. People getting millions because they spilled hot coffee on themselve's or getting millions because fast food made them fat.

    Monetary compensation is just one of many things that can be gained by a lawsuit though. Regulations can even be imposed on a company due to a lawsuit. And again this gets worse considering this would be treated as theft so a lawsuit would just be the beggining of the problem. With the way the US laws are each individual counts as a charge meaning if 100 people were charged without agreeing to be charged SV will be faced with 100 counts of theft.

    It's not as laughable as some would think, trust me.

     

    oh i know, there's a mcdonalds beside Celtic Park in Glasgow, they ran out of lids for the tea on those cups.. and no one could get tea. why because it says something like "warning hot tea".... because of that suing in america they couldn't sell people hot tea on a freezing winter afternoon.

    it was amusing in a way, but it was freezing... and people were like "I know it's hot, it's why i want hot tea", but no, just couldn't sell it without the lid and warning.

    companies' laws protect themselves, consumer laws protect themselves.... the world sometimes does go mad... when the two meet.

    it's always interesting to watch, preferably with popcorn...  my favourite:

    Robert Lee Brock decided to sue the man he blamed all his problems on... himself for $5 million. He claimed that the defendant (him) violated the plaintiff's (his) civil rights when the defendant allowed the plaintiff to get drunk. The alcohol instigated the criminal behavior.


     


    He argued that since the defendant (himself) didn't have any money or earning income, the state should pay.


     


    you can guess how that played out...

    "nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775

    Originally posted by zekkcc

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

    I can garuntee you it's a yes :)

     

    Dude.  No offense but you can't even spell guarantee let alone do it.  image

     Yes you can discuss my horrid spelling and it is bad I know. Definetly not one of my strong points. Guess it's a good thing I never claimed it was. I guess I could go the pompous route and begin using spell checker on my casual conversations like many do, but for w/e reason it just isn't in me.

    But no worries , I understand the physcology behind the intended insult. Can't prove my statement wrong so try and attack something else and by default discredit me lol. w/e the case may be my information is very correct even if my spelling is horrid :)

  • ShiymmasShiymmas Member UncommonPosts: 587

    Originally posted by GetAngry



    Also, to add to my last post, just because the auto-renewal feature is turned on in my account does not mean they will be charging me. It could simply mean that if I do select a monthly subscription rate, they will automatically renew it whenever it runs out. I could choose to cancel that and resub manually if I wish. Again, we need to wait for real proof.

     

    People talking about suing, please stay on topic of the thread.

    That really doesn't make any sense whatsoever.  I don't mean to be rude, but it's just not logical.  What function could "auto-renewal" serve without something to renew?

     

    I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, given that the game isn't released yet and nothing's really set into motion.  It still doesn't change the fact that this all looks pretty shitty from a 3rd-person perspective, such as my own.

    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
    George Bernard Shaw


    “What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
    Oscar Wilde

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