Good one. Now you can appologize for saying I lied? I'll take a card or maybe a delicious cupcake.
The trouble is, chap, you did lie. He said it's "areas where you can run into other players" not "public areas". Good show, though.
@Tardcore: No, not really. I gain no benefit from you believing what I'm saying, or even taking it into account. I am merely being helpful. Nice try, however.
@someforumguy: As someone else said, Star Wars was pretty crappy, but it was the characters and how the plot effect them that was good. DA:O has tired, boring and rather dull characters, even if their voice actors are go.
Comparing the plot of games like Bioshock/Systemshock and especially Deus Ex with Mass Effect it is easy to realise Bioware may know how to tell the story, but the amount of cliches and lack of depth in their creations is astonishing
Bioware games usually lacks on combat balance, interesting bosses, character development/useful skills/spells and gearing but usually the storyline is polished. The main issue is how every moral and fantasy cliche is always there on their games.
Even worse is the fact that after KOTOR we had Kotor meets Asia (Jade Empire), KOTOR meets Gears of War (Mass Effect), KOTOR meets Baldur's Gate (and evey possible western fantasy cliche) Dragon Age.
Personally, I enjoy their games (played all of them) even if they are not on my top list but they are for sure over hyped these days.
Seriously? Final Fantasy? The Witcher? I'm sorry but they storylines have been done to death... each rendition continues to push the storyline along but its always the same storyline just with different characters. Saying Metal Gear has a great story after so many renditions of the same'ol is like saying Mario or Zelda are good stories.
Overhyped or not.. you have to think about what hype consists of -- people being excited about a game. if the games were consistently rehashed with terrible storylines you would think the community wouldn't buy them because they already know whats going to happen. Thats not the case... the point of the system BioWare puts in place is to create a story that gives choices on a moment to moment basis. Your characters story. This could consist of helping a beggar one minute and then killing a different beggar the next. The story lines are scripted and holds your hand through it all but allows you to make choices at integral parts of the story. If the story is boring then perhaps its the choices you made?
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I mentioned that Square follows its own patterns on Final Fantasy stories and not every unoriginal fantasy pattern you can find just like Bioware do. A lot of what you find in Final Fantasy you will find inside the serie at least Square created its own cliches, we can't say the same about Bioware.
And yes, the plot you have and the choices you have in The Witcher are not as original like what we see in Folklore and Planescape, but are much less cliche than Bioware storylines, especially the moral patterns.
You avoided to comment on games that I mentioned that have really unique plot like Folklore, Syberia, Silent Hill 2 ...why?
You are wrong about Metal Gear Solid, the serie follow one main Storyline it is NOT like Zelda or Mario, far from it.
I never said the stories in Bioware games are boring, cliche and unoriginal yes. The dialogue system in Bioware games are nice and usually a good point that overcome the silly plot but the game is not open enough for you to use the argument you used.
Metal Gear, Final Fantasy and many other games are just as popular as Bioware games and worldwide they sell even more the fact that Bioware's games sell well has nothing to do with the argument of good, original or cliche stories.
The thing is, the stories aren't terribly cliche in comparison... I mean Jade Empire I felt wasn't cliche at all, KOTOR was a new take on an old IP. Dragon Age I could take or leave, and Mass Effect followed a decent Sci-Fi storyline not unlike others, but no more cliche then others.
I didn't comment on Folklore, Syberia, or silent hills primarily because I didn't play them. I played the first Silent Hill and wasn't impressed so I didn't play the second.
Metal Gear follows a main storyline, but its the same thing continuously, the gameplay doesn't change drastically and though there are little differences within each part of the story.. how is it different from the legend of Zelda that follows the same basic pattern across a timeless storyline? I mean I'm not saying these games aren't good, I'm just saying as far as the stories go... how original is it to have the same hero doing the same things countless times over?
I never said that how BioWare games SELL will be used to refute the greatness of their story. The Twilight books seem to be extremely popular, but I tried to read one and couldn't get past the first chapter... the writing was terrible. BioWare stories appeal to a large population, they are popular for their story.. that doesn't mean they are talentless hacks. What it does mean is that they are giving people what they currently want from them. On their next IP they may do something completely different.
Wanna see a bad story try FFXIII. The general concept is better then dragon age but biowares execution in story telling puts square enix to shame.
Bioware basically just uses general fantasy story. Giant evil X is doing to destroy world Y. Blah Blah.
There is nothing extremely special there. But within the larger arch they put together an impressive array of smaller stories that are top notch. (ex> Werewolves elves, crazy cult, killing kings, dwarf politics ect. ect.)
This is where they excel and why most people keep playing Bioware games. It basically makes their games like a novel that is hard to put down.
I am sorry but bioware can do 10 times better with cliches then square can do with their own material. Bioware is good because of the details they add.
Crafting=Solo Crafting facillitated by Auction House
PvP=Battlegrounds"
That video contradicts itself on multiple occassions.
[Mod Edit]
HAHAHA I'm making this up?
Quote time
Quote from James Olhen: "Our public areas are one contiguous world", "Not just our cities - 90% of the game, actually, will be areas where you can run into other players" - PC Gamer UK April 2010
Quote from James Olhen: "Its not going to feel like a heavily instanced game" - PC Gamer UK April 2010
"We're going to have open world PvP, As for the more structured PvP, I can't going into details but we will have it" - PC Gamer UK April 2010
This could mean that 90% of the world is instanced and that a limit amount of players can be in that zone at the same time as you. The spare 10% will be Singleplayer.
When James Olhen says: "Its not going to feel like an heavily instanced game" It pretty much gives avay that the game will be instanced.
And for the PvP- Just one "planet"/Area for PvP:ers to duell.
One video showed 3 testers PvPing on sands of Tatooine. Also ever heard of a PvP server?
Quote :"There is exploration, there is combat, it is a wide-open world" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Those percentages were given by Bioware themseleves. You may have known that if you spent any time researching the subject. You are the one who looks stupid attempting to debate without facts to backup your claims.
Your agenda regarding TOR is clear... but please don't make baseless arguments.
Agendas can work both ways.
MMOs are about interacting with many other players. You aren't interacting with anyone when watching a cutscene or listening to a voiceover.
When a dev says "Don't worry" - you better start worrying.
You imply that if a MMO has cutscenes and/or voiceovers, that there is no player interaction. Thats just stupid reasoning. Using the same logic, you could say the same about questdescriptions. There is no time to read them, because that would mean you are not interacting with players!
Also, being paranoid (you) is not the same as being sceptic.
If the world wasn`t instance, why in the love of satan haven`t they camed out and said: The whole world will be an totally open world, instead of just circle around it with cryptic answers.
@solarine: I'd really advise you to read WoT or A Song of Ice and Fire ( the latter of which has pretty much single handedly revitalised the Swords&Sorcery / Low Fantasy genre ), before suggesting Bioware based Dragon Age off them. Truly, they don't share similar themes, world design or even a similar audience. DA:O is high fantasy melodrama.
Compare with R. Scott Bakker's books, in which the monsters are EXACTLY the same as your average Darkspawn. There're hairless, pale humanoid ones, massive ones that have descriptions in the books that match Ogres exactly, etc etc. They're also all controlled by a massive "god / demon" that eventually rises after a few centuries to organise them to crush the world. Hell, the mage concept is also the same ( mages are hated in R. Scott Bakker's books, until a new religious prophet rises to declare that they're not damned anymore ). The similarities are too similar to be just coincidence.
EDIT: Oh, by the way, I do have a bit of a hard on for R. Scott Bakker. He wrote what seemed to be a clichéd fantasy setting that eventually turned out to be one of the best ones I've ever read. Namely since it's a post-apocalypse fantasy world, all the main characters are PRETTY contemptible, religion focuses into it a lot and it is filled with Lovecraft-esque nightmare fuel.
Having players in your party gives them the oppurtunity of interacting in the scene as well.
Explain to me how that works - or rather, how the devs claim it will work.
Oh greed, all knowing please explain to me how things work, I've not yet figured out what google is, I've never researched anything, I always make inane assumptions. Is why I'm so unhappy and patrol a board about games while not so secretly hating them.
If you make a claim - it's up to you to provide evidence, not up to me to look for confirmation. Personal attacks do NOT prove your point.
What if I linked a video would that destroy the "claims" remark?
look the bounty hunter said something with the jedi :O
Interesting video. Thanks for the link. So, how does the response selection work? Do you take turns? In that case, half of the time someone else is making the choices for you. I don't see THAT being very popular.
Anyway, would that cut scene not run exactly the same if you were playing alone? If you CAN solo content, most players WILL solo it.
The companions mentioned are another solo-friendly aspect of the game.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Bioware is a company full of talentless hacks. Nowadays, at the very least.
Giving them credit where it's due: Their voice acting is of top quality, the combat is ( usually ) quite well designed and the graphical style of their games allows them to run on pretty much any system.
But, their plot lines are cliché and pretty much exactly the same ( the only exception was Neverwinter Nights, and that was milked to hell ), the out-of-company sequels to their games are far better than their in company ones ( and the only reason they're considered not comparable is because those companies get rushed due to not being Bioware ) and they steal concepts from other books and games, such as Dragon Age - the Darkspawn of which are a blatant rip of R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series.
All Bioware is capable of these days is repeating their same old crap sequel after sequel after new franchise. Character suffers tragedy, goes into universe / world, joins extra-special order, recruits companions, does series of pretty much linear zones interspered with "side quests", fights disappointing boss, saves day.
And, if you're expecting anything seriously different from SW:TOR, you're sadly mistaken.
I am lost for words... The only thing that really comes to mind is he's upset about the late release date of swtor and went into a frothing nerd rage.
Having players in your party gives them the oppurtunity of interacting in the scene as well.
Explain to me how that works - or rather, how the devs claim it will work.
Oh greed, all knowing please explain to me how things work, I've not yet figured out what google is, I've never researched anything, I always make inane assumptions. Is why I'm so unhappy and patrol a board about games while not so secretly hating them.
If you make a claim - it's up to you to provide evidence, not up to me to look for confirmation. Personal attacks do NOT prove your point.
What if I linked a video would that destroy the "claims" remark?
look the bounty hunter said something with the jedi :O
Interesting video. Thanks for the link. So, how does the response selection work? Do you take turns? In that case, half of the time someone else is making the choices for you. I don't see THAT being very popular.
Anyway, would that cut scene not run exactly the same if you were playing alone? If you CAN solo content, most players WILL solo it.
The companions mentioned are another solo-friendly aspect of the game.
Its a random rolling system from what I'm to ascertain. I would think it would be similar to how you loot roll, you have a group of people and each would select an option, and they would randomly participate based on the roll.
Having players in your party gives them the oppurtunity of interacting in the scene as well.
Explain to me how that works - or rather, how the devs claim it will work.
Oh greed, all knowing please explain to me how things work, I've not yet figured out what google is, I've never researched anything, I always make inane assumptions. Is why I'm so unhappy and patrol a board about games while not so secretly hating them.
If you make a claim - it's up to you to provide evidence, not up to me to look for confirmation. Personal attacks do NOT prove your point.
What if I linked a video would that destroy the "claims" remark?
look the bounty hunter said something with the jedi :O
Interesting video. Thanks for the link. So, how does the response selection work? Do you take turns? In that case, half of the time someone else is making the choices for you. I don't see THAT being very popular.
Anyway, would that cut scene not run exactly the same if you were playing alone? If you CAN solo content, most players WILL solo it.
The companions mentioned are another solo-friendly aspect of the game.
Everything known about flashpoints
Flashpoints/Loot:
There are repeatable Flashpoints and General Content in game - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
TOR does seem to be item/stat based game, LightSaber picked up in game shown with Stats on - Developer Walkthrough
Loot seems to be based on Light/Darkside as well as class. - Multiple Interviews
Looting is the standard Loot types in other MMOs - StarWarsMMO
Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
Mentioned that during a solo Flashpoint (dungeons) friends can be invited at anypoint while doing quests- GamesRadar
Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
A rolling system has been seen during Voice Over/Story sections when a Party is involved. It seems to indicate who gets to speak first- VO Video
The only advice I can give you about other players is not to worry about them, you're not them, you make your own choices, I'm choosing to group the day I march my entire guild into ToR (I'm still on the fence mind you). I suggest you do the same.
You imply that if a MMO has cutscenes and/or voiceovers, that there is no player interaction.
No. What I am saying is that the more cutscenes and voiceovers there are, the LESS interaction there is. BTW, multiplayer questing is at time non-interactive. You can skip reading the quest text, though. Those cutscenes I just watched on the youtube link did not appear to be skippable.
Thats just stupid reasoning. Using the same logic, you could say the same about questdescriptions. There is no time to read them, because that would mean you are not interacting with players!
Also, being paranoid (you) is not the same as being sceptic.
Name-calling again. You don't serve your points well.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Bioware is a company full of talentless hacks. Nowadays, at the very least.
Giving them credit where it's due: Their voice acting is of top quality, the combat is ( usually ) quite well designed and the graphical style of their games allows them to run on pretty much any system.
But, their plot lines are cliché and pretty much exactly the same ( the only exception was Neverwinter Nights, and that was milked to hell ), the out-of-company sequels to their games are far better than their in company ones ( and the only reason they're considered not comparable is because those companies get rushed due to not being Bioware ) and they steal concepts from other books and games, such as Dragon Age - the Darkspawn of which are a blatant rip of R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series.
All Bioware is capable of these days is repeating their same old crap sequel after sequel after new franchise. Character suffers tragedy, goes into universe / world, joins extra-special order, recruits companions, does series of pretty much linear zones interspered with "side quests", fights disappointing boss, saves day.
And, if you're expecting anything seriously different from SW:TOR, you're sadly mistaken.
I guess you are entirely unaware of the Jungian conventions in epic storytelling. "Stealing concepts" is itself a pretty much ridiculous concept when it comes to the fantasy genre, given they're not copying and pasting entire sequences.
The epic form strives to be the stomping grounds of the collective unconscious, so there are lots of interchangeable motifs and mythemes. Bioware smartly build on these (they actually impress me each time with their grasp on and knowledge of the genre), but they always have that bit of extra there, their own way of weaving those raw materials, which makes their stories feel like a relatively new take on old material.
As an example, Dragon Age has much more similarity to the Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice and Fire books. It also lifts from classic texts like Beowulf and of course the granddaddy of all Western fantasy epics, Snorri Edda (which is the blueprint for Tolkien's work). This is perfectly natural and calling someone a "talentless hack" because of it makes no sense at all - this is pretty much epic text analysis 101.
I heartily suggest you read some Claude Lévi-Strauss, Joseph Campbell and Vladimir Propp.
I feel it is safe to assume that most modern individuals are unaware of quite a number of things, and are quite happy to remain so. That is most likely why fantasy merchants find so much money in making frivolous, time wasting twaddle, to appease the masses.
I think thats a nice observation and I agree. But its also completely useless in this context. Your last sentence also shows your true nature and is really offending. Get of your high horse already, we are just talking about simple entertainment. There is no reason to look down on people who like this.
I really think its silly to begin with to look at games in this way. There is no reason for games to be complex or unique. The point of games is to be entertaining and for some people to be about competition. This can be as simple as throwing waterballoons at each other.
If you dont realise that, you still have to learn a few things. There is no reason to talk about people like you did in your last sentence. That was really misplaced arrogance.
Besides, nothing has changed. Modern individuals my ass. At some point you have to accept the way humans are you know.
Having players in your party gives them the oppurtunity of interacting in the scene as well.
Explain to me how that works - or rather, how the devs claim it will work.
Oh greed, all knowing please explain to me how things work, I've not yet figured out what google is, I've never researched anything, I always make inane assumptions. Is why I'm so unhappy and patrol a board about games while not so secretly hating them.
If you make a claim - it's up to you to provide evidence, not up to me to look for confirmation. Personal attacks do NOT prove your point.
What if I linked a video would that destroy the "claims" remark?
look the bounty hunter said something with the jedi :O
Interesting video. Thanks for the link. So, how does the response selection work? Do you take turns? In that case, half of the time someone else is making the choices for you. I don't see THAT being very popular.
Anyway, would that cut scene not run exactly the same if you were playing alone? If you CAN solo content, most players WILL solo it.
The companions mentioned are another solo-friendly aspect of the game.
Everything known about flashpoints
Flashpoints/Loot:
There are repeatable Flashpoints and General Content in game - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
TOR does seem to be item/stat based game, LightSaber picked up in game shown with Stats on - Developer Walkthrough
Loot seems to be based on Light/Darkside as well as class. - Multiple Interviews
Looting is the standard Loot types in other MMOs - StarWarsMMO
Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
Mentioned that during a solo Flashpoint (dungeons) friends can be invited at anypoint while doing quests- GamesRadar
Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
A rolling system has been seen during Voice Over/Story sections when a Party is involved. It seems to indicate who gets to speak first- VO Video
The only advice I can give you about other players is not to worry about them, you're not them, you make your own choices, I'm choosing to group the day I march my entire guild into ToR (I'm still on the fence mind you). I suggest you do the same.
Lets not forget to add that recently they explained that other players cannot affect your lightside or darkside points with their decisions.
Its a random rolling system from what I'm to ascertain. I would think it would be similar to how you loot roll, you have a group of people and each would select an option, and they would randomly participate based on the roll.
You don't have concerns about that?
I think a LOT of players are going to HATE that. It's a bit like running a dungeon and having choices (which can't be undone) about which bosses to fight and where to go being made by alternate players. If players have to put up with that - or run solo - I think most will play solo.
An unrecoverable (which is what was said in the video) storyline decision made for me by another player? Not to mention my future skills and reactions of my companion are affected as well? I don't see that being at all popular.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
There are repeatable Flashpoints and General Content in game - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
TOR does seem to be item/stat based game, LightSaber picked up in game shown with Stats on - Developer Walkthrough
Loot seems to be based on Light/Darkside as well as class. - Multiple Interviews
Looting is the standard Loot types in other MMOs - StarWarsMMO
Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
Mentioned that during a solo Flashpoint (dungeons) friends can be invited at anypoint while doing quests- GamesRadar
Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
A rolling system has been seen during Voice Over/Story sections when a Party is involved. It seems to indicate who gets to speak first- VO Video
The only advice I can give you about other players is not to worry about them, you're not them, you make your own choices, I'm choosing to group the day I march my entire guild into ToR (I'm still on the fence mind you). I suggest you do the same.
Lets not forget to add that recently they explained that other players cannot affect your lightside or darkside points with their decisions.
Ah, ok thats good. Must have missed that, but glad to know.
You imply that if a MMO has cutscenes and/or voiceovers, that there is no player interaction.
No. What I am saying is that the more cutscenes and voiceovers there are, the LESS interaction there is. BTW, multiplayer questing is at time non-interactive. You can skip reading the quest text, though. Those cutscenes I just watched on the youtube link did not appear to be skippable.
Thats just stupid reasoning. Using the same logic, you could say the same about questdescriptions. There is no time to read them, because that would mean you are not interacting with players!
Also, being paranoid (you) is not the same as being sceptic.
Name-calling again. You don't serve your points well.
You dont know what kind of impact those cutscenes and voiceovers will have on this. Also 'Those cutscenes I just watched on the youtube link did not appear to be skippable.' shows that you just dont know. You assume that they are not skippable. Like you assume a lot of things in your posts.
One thing doesnt exclude the other. You know perfectly well that you wont be just watching cutscenes and listening voice overs. Cut the exaggeration already. Other MMO's had cutscenes and voiceovers and usually are skippable. Even in groups.
Bioware is a company full of talentless hacks. Nowadays, at the very least.
Giving them credit where it's due: Their voice acting is of top quality, the combat is ( usually ) quite well designed and the graphical style of their games allows them to run on pretty much any system.
But, their plot lines are cliché and pretty much exactly the same ( the only exception was Neverwinter Nights, and that was milked to hell ), the out-of-company sequels to their games are far better than their in company ones ( and the only reason they're considered not comparable is because those companies get rushed due to not being Bioware ) and they steal concepts from other books and games, such as Dragon Age - the Darkspawn of which are a blatant rip of R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series.
All Bioware is capable of these days is repeating their same old crap sequel after sequel after new franchise. Character suffers tragedy, goes into universe / world, joins extra-special order, recruits companions, does series of pretty much linear zones interspered with "side quests", fights disappointing boss, saves day.
And, if you're expecting anything seriously different from SW:TOR, you're sadly mistaken.
Now while I agree with some of your points I have to say one thing. Bioware WAS a great company and made quality games, no different then any other company out there that made good games. Originality in games and stories now adays is rare at best, so in reality everyone is a rip off of something somewhere, if not then someone will put together some crap about how it is a rip off ( eg : http://www.buzzfeed.com/reddit/james-camerons-pocohontas-err-avatar ).
Now don't get me wrong everyone has there right to think whatever they want about games or movies, myself included. My point with Bioware and there new game comming up TOR, is that now that they are OWNED by EA, EA is the one who calls the shots. Don't give me any crap about them having "Creative control", they have that untill the fat guys at EA say, "Crap we need money, force Bioware to release that game they are working on ahead of schedule so we can show a profit this quarter." The same thing that happened with WAR.
They have great talent at Bioware, I just hope that they can define themselves and keep there core company and not be eaten up like many of the other companies EA has purchased.
You dont know what kind of impact those cutscenes and voiceovers will have on this. Also 'Those cutscenes I just watched on the youtube link did not appear to be skippable.' shows that you just dont know. You assume that they are not skippable. Like you assume a lot of things in your posts.
If your choice during them affect the rest of your game, then how can they let you skip them? In the scene shown - you either kill the captain, or talk him into working with you. You can't skip an important decision like that. The game has to know what choice was made.
One thing doesnt exclude the other. You know perfectly well that you wont be just watching cutscenes and listening voice overs.
Strawman. I never said that was all you would be doing.
Cut the exaggeration already. Other MMO's had cutscenes and voiceovers and usually are skippable. Even in groups.
What name did I call you?
You said I was paranoid.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Bioware is a company full of talentless hacks. Nowadays, at the very least.
Giving them credit where it's due: Their voice acting is of top quality, the combat is ( usually ) quite well designed and the graphical style of their games allows them to run on pretty much any system.
But, their plot lines are cliché and pretty much exactly the same ( the only exception was Neverwinter Nights, and that was milked to hell ), the out-of-company sequels to their games are far better than their in company ones ( and the only reason they're considered not comparable is because those companies get rushed due to not being Bioware ) and they steal concepts from other books and games, such as Dragon Age - the Darkspawn of which are a blatant rip of R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series.
All Bioware is capable of these days is repeating their same old crap sequel after sequel after new franchise. Character suffers tragedy, goes into universe / world, joins extra-special order, recruits companions, does series of pretty much linear zones interspered with "side quests", fights disappointing boss, saves day.
And, if you're expecting anything seriously different from SW:TOR, you're sadly mistaken.
Now while I agree with some of your points I have to say one thing. Bioware WAS a great company and made quality games, no different then any other company out there that made good games. Originality in games and stories now adays is rare at best, so in reality everyone is a rip off of something somewhere, if not then someone will put together some crap about how it is a rip off ( eg : http://www.buzzfeed.com/reddit/james-camerons-pocohontas-err-avatar ).
Now don't get me wrong everyone has there right to think whatever they want about games or movies, myself included. My point with Bioware and there new game comming up TOR, is that now that they are OWNED by EA, EA is the one who calls the shots. Don't give me any crap about them having "Creative control", they have that untill the fat guys at EA say, "Crap we need money, force Bioware to release that game they are working on ahead of schedule so we can show a profit this quarter." The same thing that happened with WAR.
They have great talent at Bioware, I just hope that they can define themselves and keep there core company and not be eaten up like many of the other companies EA has purchased.
I doubt that was ever said at an EA board meeting. But I get your point...
You dont know what kind of impact those cutscenes and voiceovers will have on this. Also 'Those cutscenes I just watched on the youtube link did not appear to be skippable.' shows that you just dont know. You assume that they are not skippable. Like you assume a lot of things in your posts.
If your choice during them affect the rest of your game, then how can they let you skip them? In the scene shown - you either kill the captain, or talk him into working with you. You can't skip an important decision like that. The game has to know what choice was made.
One thing doesnt exclude the other. You know perfectly well that you wont be just watching cutscenes and listening voice overs.
Strawman. I never said that was all you would be doing.
Cut the exaggeration already. Other MMO's had cutscenes and voiceovers and usually are skippable. Even in groups.
What name did I call you?
You said I was paranoid.
Where was I paranoid? You wrote that I was name-calling, so I geniunly want to know what name I called you. Maybe its some translation thing.
A cutscene is an animation or vid. If you meant the dialogue with the npcs, you shouldve said so. I never said that the dialogue choice would be skippable.
This whole cutscene and voiceover nitpicking is moot. Every MMO has activities that dont require player interactivity. Even if they wont be skippable, it doesnt have to mean that SW:TOR has less player interactivity. Also, the devs already explained that not all questdialogue will happen like that. Just the main arcs.
@solarine: I'd really advise you to read WoT or A Song of Ice and Fire ( the latter of which has pretty much single handedly revitalised the Swords&Sorcery / Low Fantasy genre ), before suggesting Bioware based Dragon Age off them. Truly, they don't share similar themes, world design or even a similar audience. DA:O is high fantasy melodrama.
Compare with R. Scott Bakker's books, in which the monsters are EXACTLY the same as your average Darkspawn. There're hairless, pale humanoid ones, massive ones that have descriptions in the books that match Ogres exactly, etc etc. They're also all controlled by a massive "god / demon" that eventually rises after a few centuries to organise them to crush the world. Hell, the mage concept is also the same ( mages are hated in R. Scott Bakker's books, until a new religious prophet rises to declare that they're not damned anymore ). The similarities are too similar to be just coincidence.
Hmm, interesting, now I'm almost positive you don't know what you're talking about here. There are scores of similarities I could show you, especially when it comes to WoT, but you'll excuse me if I don't put that much effort without being paid in return. So here are a few:
First, let's start with your examples. If you'd taken your own advice and actually bothered to read those books, you'd be aware that both of those examples also hold true with Wheel of Time. In WoT, the "dark forces" are actually called "Shadowspawn" and "Darkfriends". Hey, you can even form the word "Darkspawn" from them! And the entirity of the dark forces is called... wait for it... "The Blight". They also have a long-dormant deity/power in Shaitan.
And I'm sure you'd notice the similarity between two organizations of wardens that keep the darkness at bay - namely Grey Wardens in DAO and the Night's Watch in ASoIaF. As for the tone (which you deem high fantasy melodrama), even Bioware themselves admitted they were inspired more by Martin's (in my opinion not really impressive) Grey-with-a-capital-G line of doing things than others.
As for the mage analogy, it's in many many ways like the Aes Sedai in WoT. Mages have to be registered to a central organization (the Aes Sedai as vs the Chantry), have to be taken to a tower and be tutored there, not allowed to leave (Mage's Tower vs White Tower in Tar Valon), unregistered, "wild" mages are a danger to society (abominations in DAO and madness in WoT). Also how interesting that the "cleansing of the taint" on the mages is the central motif of a whole book in WoT.
I' also say The Fade in DAO is pretty like Tel'aran'rhiod in WoT.
Also you talk about themes, but nothing you've touched on is even related to themes. Faith (and even the abuse of it), fear of things we don't understand, personal responsibility vs. social responsibility, these are what we call "themes" and all of these have a huge importance in all these three narratives and not surprisingly so - because, surprise surprise, they're all part of the "rite of passage" outlined in Joseph Campbell's books. So instead of trying to make a liar out of me to no avail, really, do go and read Campbell, Lévi-Strauss and Propp, read about the "universal" dreams shared throughout the world's different cultures, the similarities between their heroes' journeys in legends and fairy tales. They're the key to truly comprehending what fantasy writing is all about.
I could go on, but I'm pretty sure I've made my point and I don't want to write a book on it.... but trust me, I can - and I'm not to saying I won't.
Hmm, interesting, now I'm almost positive you don't know what you're talking about here. There are scores of similarities I could show you, especially when it comes to WoT, but you'll excuse me if I don't put that much effort without being paid in return. So here are a few:
First, let's start with your examples. If you'd taken your own advice and actually bothered to read those books, you'd be aware that both of those examples also hold true with Wheel of Time. In WoT, the "dark forces" are actually called "Shadowspawn" and "Darkfriends". Hey, you can even form the word "Darkspawn" from them! And the entirity of the dark forces is called... wait for it... "The Blight". They also have a long-dormant deity/power in Shaitan.
And I'm sure you'd notice the similarity between two organizations of wardens that keep the darkness at bay - namely Grey Wardens in DAO and the Night's Watch in ASoIaF. As for the tone (which you deem high fantasy melodrama), even Bioware themselves admitted they were inspired more by Martin's (in my opinion not really impressive) Grey-with-a-capital-G line of doing things than others.
As for the mage analogy, it's in many many ways like the Aes Sedai in WoT. Mages have to be registered to a central organization (the Aes Sedai as vs the Chantry), have to be taken to a tower and be tutored there, not allowed to leave (Mage's Tower vs White Tower in Tar Valon), unregistered, "wild" mages are a danger to society (abominations in DAO and madness in WoT). Also how interesting that the "cleansing of the taint" on the mages is the central motif of a whole book in WoT.
I' also say The Fade in DAO is pretty like Tel'aran'rhiod in WoT.
Also you talk about themes, but nothing you've touched on is even related to themes. Faith (and even the abuse of it), fear of things we don't understand, personal responsibility vs. social responsibility, these are what we call "themes" and all of these have a huge importance in all these three narratives and not surprisingly so - because, surprise surprise, they're all part of the "rite of passage" outlined in Joseph Campbell's books. So instead of trying to make a liar out of me to no avail, really, do go and read Campbell, Lévi-Strauss and Propp, read about the "universal" dreams shared throughout the world's different cultures, the similarities between their heroes' journeys in legends and fairy tales. They're the key to truly comprehending what fantasy writing is all about.
I could go on, but I'm pretty sure I've made my point and I don't want to write a book on it.... but trust me, I can - and I'm not to saying I won't.
Feel free to carry on forming tenuous links off "themes" never truly ascendent in the fantasy works you've mentioned, I'm sure it makes you feel better to have read a variety of works of basic anthropology - and then to use them as an argument on MMO forums. ;D
Here's a clue: You're failing to argue a point. You're all over the place, making jumps between tropes that are subversions of contemporary fantasy and their contemporary counterparts. ( Contemporary example: Wizard's training tower in WoT, Attempted subversion: Dragon Age's wizard's training tower, True subversion: R. Scott Bakker's wizard schools. ) Try making a cohesive argument before bringing anthropologists into it.
Nice attempt of a proof via verbosity, though. You almost managed it until I realised what drivel you were typing.
Comments
LOL
The thing is, the stories aren't terribly cliche in comparison... I mean Jade Empire I felt wasn't cliche at all, KOTOR was a new take on an old IP. Dragon Age I could take or leave, and Mass Effect followed a decent Sci-Fi storyline not unlike others, but no more cliche then others.
I didn't comment on Folklore, Syberia, or silent hills primarily because I didn't play them. I played the first Silent Hill and wasn't impressed so I didn't play the second.
Metal Gear follows a main storyline, but its the same thing continuously, the gameplay doesn't change drastically and though there are little differences within each part of the story.. how is it different from the legend of Zelda that follows the same basic pattern across a timeless storyline? I mean I'm not saying these games aren't good, I'm just saying as far as the stories go... how original is it to have the same hero doing the same things countless times over?
I never said that how BioWare games SELL will be used to refute the greatness of their story. The Twilight books seem to be extremely popular, but I tried to read one and couldn't get past the first chapter... the writing was terrible. BioWare stories appeal to a large population, they are popular for their story.. that doesn't mean they are talentless hacks. What it does mean is that they are giving people what they currently want from them. On their next IP they may do something completely different.
Wanna see a bad story try FFXIII. The general concept is better then dragon age but biowares execution in story telling puts square enix to shame.
Bioware basically just uses general fantasy story. Giant evil X is doing to destroy world Y. Blah Blah.
There is nothing extremely special there. But within the larger arch they put together an impressive array of smaller stories that are top notch. (ex> Werewolves elves, crazy cult, killing kings, dwarf politics ect. ect.)
This is where they excel and why most people keep playing Bioware games. It basically makes their games like a novel that is hard to put down.
I am sorry but bioware can do 10 times better with cliches then square can do with their own material. Bioware is good because of the details they add.
One video showed 3 testers PvPing on sands of Tatooine. Also ever heard of a PvP server?
Quote :"There is exploration, there is combat, it is a wide-open world" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
You imply that if a MMO has cutscenes and/or voiceovers, that there is no player interaction. Thats just stupid reasoning. Using the same logic, you could say the same about questdescriptions. There is no time to read them, because that would mean you are not interacting with players!
Also, being paranoid (you) is not the same as being sceptic.
If the world wasn`t instance, why in the love of satan haven`t they camed out and said: The whole world will be an totally open world, instead of just circle around it with cryptic answers.
@solarine: I'd really advise you to read WoT or A Song of Ice and Fire ( the latter of which has pretty much single handedly revitalised the Swords&Sorcery / Low Fantasy genre ), before suggesting Bioware based Dragon Age off them. Truly, they don't share similar themes, world design or even a similar audience. DA:O is high fantasy melodrama.
Compare with R. Scott Bakker's books, in which the monsters are EXACTLY the same as your average Darkspawn. There're hairless, pale humanoid ones, massive ones that have descriptions in the books that match Ogres exactly, etc etc. They're also all controlled by a massive "god / demon" that eventually rises after a few centuries to organise them to crush the world. Hell, the mage concept is also the same ( mages are hated in R. Scott Bakker's books, until a new religious prophet rises to declare that they're not damned anymore ). The similarities are too similar to be just coincidence.
EDIT: Oh, by the way, I do have a bit of a hard on for R. Scott Bakker. He wrote what seemed to be a clichéd fantasy setting that eventually turned out to be one of the best ones I've ever read. Namely since it's a post-apocalypse fantasy world, all the main characters are PRETTY contemptible, religion focuses into it a lot and it is filled with Lovecraft-esque nightmare fuel.
Interesting video. Thanks for the link. So, how does the response selection work? Do you take turns? In that case, half of the time someone else is making the choices for you. I don't see THAT being very popular.
Anyway, would that cut scene not run exactly the same if you were playing alone? If you CAN solo content, most players WILL solo it.
The companions mentioned are another solo-friendly aspect of the game.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Definately nerd rage.
Its a random rolling system from what I'm to ascertain. I would think it would be similar to how you loot roll, you have a group of people and each would select an option, and they would randomly participate based on the roll.
Everything known about flashpoints
Flashpoints/Loot:
There are repeatable Flashpoints and General Content in game - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
TOR does seem to be item/stat based game, LightSaber picked up in game shown with Stats on - Developer Walkthrough
Loot seems to be based on Light/Darkside as well as class. - Multiple Interviews
Looting is the standard Loot types in other MMOs - StarWarsMMO
Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
Mentioned that during a solo Flashpoint (dungeons) friends can be invited at anypoint while doing quests- GamesRadar
Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
A rolling system has been seen during Voice Over/Story sections when a Party is involved. It seems to indicate who gets to speak first- VO Video
The only advice I can give you about other players is not to worry about them, you're not them, you make your own choices, I'm choosing to group the day I march my entire guild into ToR (I'm still on the fence mind you). I suggest you do the same.
Name-calling again. You don't serve your points well.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I think thats a nice observation and I agree. But its also completely useless in this context. Your last sentence also shows your true nature and is really offending. Get of your high horse already, we are just talking about simple entertainment. There is no reason to look down on people who like this.
I really think its silly to begin with to look at games in this way. There is no reason for games to be complex or unique. The point of games is to be entertaining and for some people to be about competition. This can be as simple as throwing waterballoons at each other.
If you dont realise that, you still have to learn a few things. There is no reason to talk about people like you did in your last sentence. That was really misplaced arrogance.
Besides, nothing has changed. Modern individuals my ass. At some point you have to accept the way humans are you know.
Lets not forget to add that recently they explained that other players cannot affect your lightside or darkside points with their decisions.
You don't have concerns about that?
I think a LOT of players are going to HATE that. It's a bit like running a dungeon and having choices (which can't be undone) about which bosses to fight and where to go being made by alternate players. If players have to put up with that - or run solo - I think most will play solo.
An unrecoverable (which is what was said in the video) storyline decision made for me by another player? Not to mention my future skills and reactions of my companion are affected as well? I don't see that being at all popular.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Ah, ok thats good. Must have missed that, but glad to know.
Ah, good. I posted before reading this. That's ONE worry removed.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You dont know what kind of impact those cutscenes and voiceovers will have on this. Also 'Those cutscenes I just watched on the youtube link did not appear to be skippable.' shows that you just dont know. You assume that they are not skippable. Like you assume a lot of things in your posts.
One thing doesnt exclude the other. You know perfectly well that you wont be just watching cutscenes and listening voice overs. Cut the exaggeration already. Other MMO's had cutscenes and voiceovers and usually are skippable. Even in groups.
What name did I call you?
Here is some info on Voice. Btw, all this is coming from here
Voices & Dialogue
Alien Dialogue has Subtitles - Developer Walkthrough
Quote: all of the player characters will speak basic. Inc the Non Human - Darth Hater the Audio of TOR
Dialog selection via a Mass Effect Style Dialog wheel - Multiple reviews + VO Video
Quest Dialogue can change depending on what other player classes you bring with you during quests - VO Video
Full Voice overs for all NPC, Companions and Player Characters - VO Video
There are Persuade options for certain dialogue - VO Video
Options to read text, instead of hearing, or even skip to it altogether - Darth Hater Q&A PAX Day3
There is one Male and One Female voice per Class - Sean Dahlberg
Now while I agree with some of your points I have to say one thing. Bioware WAS a great company and made quality games, no different then any other company out there that made good games. Originality in games and stories now adays is rare at best, so in reality everyone is a rip off of something somewhere, if not then someone will put together some crap about how it is a rip off ( eg : http://www.buzzfeed.com/reddit/james-camerons-pocohontas-err-avatar ).
Now don't get me wrong everyone has there right to think whatever they want about games or movies, myself included. My point with Bioware and there new game comming up TOR, is that now that they are OWNED by EA, EA is the one who calls the shots. Don't give me any crap about them having "Creative control", they have that untill the fat guys at EA say, "Crap we need money, force Bioware to release that game they are working on ahead of schedule so we can show a profit this quarter." The same thing that happened with WAR.
They have great talent at Bioware, I just hope that they can define themselves and keep there core company and not be eaten up like many of the other companies EA has purchased.
You said I was paranoid.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I doubt that was ever said at an EA board meeting. But I get your point...
Where was I paranoid? You wrote that I was name-calling, so I geniunly want to know what name I called you. Maybe its some translation thing.
A cutscene is an animation or vid. If you meant the dialogue with the npcs, you shouldve said so. I never said that the dialogue choice would be skippable.
This whole cutscene and voiceover nitpicking is moot. Every MMO has activities that dont require player interactivity. Even if they wont be skippable, it doesnt have to mean that SW:TOR has less player interactivity. Also, the devs already explained that not all questdialogue will happen like that. Just the main arcs.
Hmm, interesting, now I'm almost positive you don't know what you're talking about here. There are scores of similarities I could show you, especially when it comes to WoT, but you'll excuse me if I don't put that much effort without being paid in return. So here are a few:
First, let's start with your examples. If you'd taken your own advice and actually bothered to read those books, you'd be aware that both of those examples also hold true with Wheel of Time. In WoT, the "dark forces" are actually called "Shadowspawn" and "Darkfriends". Hey, you can even form the word "Darkspawn" from them! And the entirity of the dark forces is called... wait for it... "The Blight". They also have a long-dormant deity/power in Shaitan.
And I'm sure you'd notice the similarity between two organizations of wardens that keep the darkness at bay - namely Grey Wardens in DAO and the Night's Watch in ASoIaF. As for the tone (which you deem high fantasy melodrama), even Bioware themselves admitted they were inspired more by Martin's (in my opinion not really impressive) Grey-with-a-capital-G line of doing things than others.
As for the mage analogy, it's in many many ways like the Aes Sedai in WoT. Mages have to be registered to a central organization (the Aes Sedai as vs the Chantry), have to be taken to a tower and be tutored there, not allowed to leave (Mage's Tower vs White Tower in Tar Valon), unregistered, "wild" mages are a danger to society (abominations in DAO and madness in WoT). Also how interesting that the "cleansing of the taint" on the mages is the central motif of a whole book in WoT.
I' also say The Fade in DAO is pretty like Tel'aran'rhiod in WoT.
Also you talk about themes, but nothing you've touched on is even related to themes. Faith (and even the abuse of it), fear of things we don't understand, personal responsibility vs. social responsibility, these are what we call "themes" and all of these have a huge importance in all these three narratives and not surprisingly so - because, surprise surprise, they're all part of the "rite of passage" outlined in Joseph Campbell's books. So instead of trying to make a liar out of me to no avail, really, do go and read Campbell, Lévi-Strauss and Propp, read about the "universal" dreams shared throughout the world's different cultures, the similarities between their heroes' journeys in legends and fairy tales. They're the key to truly comprehending what fantasy writing is all about.
I could go on, but I'm pretty sure I've made my point and I don't want to write a book on it.... but trust me, I can - and I'm not to saying I won't.
Feel free to carry on forming tenuous links off "themes" never truly ascendent in the fantasy works you've mentioned, I'm sure it makes you feel better to have read a variety of works of basic anthropology - and then to use them as an argument on MMO forums. ;D
Here's a clue: You're failing to argue a point. You're all over the place, making jumps between tropes that are subversions of contemporary fantasy and their contemporary counterparts. ( Contemporary example: Wizard's training tower in WoT, Attempted subversion: Dragon Age's wizard's training tower, True subversion: R. Scott Bakker's wizard schools. ) Try making a cohesive argument before bringing anthropologists into it.
Nice attempt of a proof via verbosity, though. You almost managed it until I realised what drivel you were typing.