Sure, some games may do a specific feature or two better but the whole package still results in a game that isn't as good as WoW. Some games focus on pvp while the pve lags. Serveral couldn't get much of an end-game going. Others seem terribly grindy. While you may argue that other games are better and provide all the evidence in the world, it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, the vote that counts is the wallet vote. WoW continues to win the wallet vote.
True.
Many who hate WoW don't really hate WoW. They want to feel 1337
Nobody in their boutique game cares so they come to mmorpg and post that they are a member of a 1337 boutique game.
None of us care that they are in some tedious boutique game either.
You are not 1337 in any way. You are not working on a cure for cancer, you are playing a game. If you'd rather appear 1337 than have fun, that's your thing. But don't nerd rage on those having fun.
Are you kidding me? A mistaken belief that WoW did infact change the MMO Market for the worse? Hell yes it did, look at all the games to come out thus far, they are all WoW clones, their UI's almost look like they just outright stole it from Blizzard. Every single Major MMO that has come out sense WoW all share OBVIOUS resembalance to WoW. Anarchy did not resemble Ever quest, Everquest did not resemble UO. Companies stopped making UNIQUE mmos' they wanted the subscriber base that Blizzard gained with WoW. WoW did change the market for the worse, we have not had one decent MMO come out sense WoW. They have all been WoW clones with a weak subscriber base and even sillier fan bois. I predicted auto assualt was trash, people laughed on these forums and was I right? Hell yes, every NC soft game to come out sense they first started making changes to City of Heroes they have all been trash. Eve Online is probably the most unique MMO on the market right now. All the rest are all freaking WoW clones.
You wanna know why people hate WoW?! read the latest patch notes and weep. I have been a long term wow player and hardcore raider for years (armory me if you dont believe me) I stepped down from raiding monday and boy am i glad i did after reading tuesdays cata notes....
10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items
so what your telling me is that as IF raiding hasnt become too easy and a shell of its former self already that cata will seal the deal and deliver a deathblow. Why bother doin 25's if you can get the same rewards from 10. Less competition for my gear in 10 as well. WoW will lose a good chunk of subscriptions (mine included). I was unhappy with the repetetive dull nature of the raiding scene and the ease of it and then they go and make it more repetitive and easy. GG blizzard. Blizzard's constant catering to the lower spectrum of their player base is why people hate blizzard. This will go down as a star wars galaxy type moment for wow. GENTLEMEN GENTLEMEN!!!! This could very well lead to the end of the world............ of warcraft.
LOL .. more hated doomsaying.
People said that about WOTLK raids too. Look at what happen. MORE people get into raids. It has become MUCH BETTER because of hard modes & assessibility. Do people leave in masses after WOTLK? Nope. Do top guilds still get their epeen from first kills and stuff .. yes.
This is just case of hardcore players being envious that now more people can now play in their previously exclusive territory. Even today, if you go to wow-heroes.com to see, not every guild can bring down all the ICC bosses. So i think the difficulty is pretty well tuned.
You wanna know why people hate WoW?! read the latest patch notes and weep. I have been a long term wow player and hardcore raider for years (armory me if you dont believe me) I stepped down from raiding monday and boy am i glad i did after reading tuesdays cata notes....
so what your telling me is that as IF raiding hasnt become too easy and a shell of its former self already that cata will seal the deal and deliver a deathblow. Why bother doin 25's if you can get the same rewards from 10. Less competition for my gear in 10 as well. WoW will lose a good chunk of subscriptions (mine included). I was unhappy with the repetetive dull nature of the raiding scene and the ease of it and then they go and make it more repetitive and easy. GG blizzard. Blizzard's constant catering to the lower spectrum of their player base is why people hate blizzard. This will go down as a star wars galaxy type moment for wow. GENTLEMEN GENTLEMEN!!!! This could very well lead to the end of the world............ of warcraft.
So you have a problem with Blizzard planning to make 10mans harder to match the extra mechanics of 25mans and the fact that they plan to make the loot faster to obtain in 25mans and you think that this is a reason why people hate WoW?
It still remains to be seen how much actual content Cataclysm will have but this seems to reduce the repetivness and gear grind of raiding while removing the arbitrarty nature of 25mans having extra fight mechanics that were cut from 10man versions to appease the 25man raiders.
dont think of me as some forum troll here to bash your beloved game. I, too, love wow. I was behind them for cata until i read that change yesterday. Such a sad day for WoW. before long, raiding will consist of you guys walking into an empty room, hitting a red button and a treasure chest opens up with loot.
dont think of me as some forum troll here to bash your beloved game. I, too, love wow. I was behind them for cata until i read that change yesterday. Such a sad day for WoW. before long, raiding will consist of you guys walking into an empty room, hitting a red button and a treasure chest opens up with loot.
Hmm how would making 10 man HARDER accomplish that?
Hmm how would making 10 man HARDER accomplish that?
Thing is, who said 10 mans would be getting harder? They said 10 and 25 man raids will be closer in difficulty which could mean either 10 mans will get harder or 25 mans will get easier. I have a feeling it will be the latter for the normal raids seeing as they are making both 10 and 25 man share the same lockout and loot levels.
That would also make Hard Modes actually seem 'Hard' to a lot more players. 10 and 25 man Hard Modes will also most likely share the same difficulty level with the only real difference being the loot drop quantity.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
nah what i have a problem with is 10m's getting the same loot as 25's. Bringing them up from the ROFL status they are now is a good thing, but why destroy end raiding to do it? In reality all their going to do is nerf the 25's abit to make them abit more in line with the 10's. The truth is 10's will be harder but 25's will be easier then they already are (yes i hear the lawl from fellow bc/vanilla players) This is a case of greed by the 10m guilds who see people in 25m gear and say "its not fair bliz i deserve more gearz i did the same fight as they did!" Well, no you didn't. From leading a 25m guild i can tell you its 2-3x more challenging and rewarding to organize and structure 25 different opinions and attitudes together towards a goal. No one will do 25's after this change and for good reason. If you think you'll get "more lootz" from 25 your delusional man. Even if it drops 3-4 more pieces (i think it wont even drop that much) and say your item drops, you have to roll off vs 5-7 others vs maybe 1 in your 10m's. Meaning yah you have a higher chance of it dropping in 25 but you have a better chance of getting it in 10. To compound that problem, if you would do 2-3 10m's vs one 25, u'd get more loot! wtf!? I'm sorry alot of guilds can't clear ICC i won't shit on them because i realize people have different time commitments due to rl, but where does this entitled attitude of "i pay for my sub i deserve top gear" come from? Do you think about your RL and job(s) and relationships with that same self entitled attitude? The truth is its counterproductive to what an mmo is striving for, you want to keep your players playing longer and always having that xtra "something" to go for. This change is the definition of the phrase "too much carrot, not enough stick" Everyone is made to feel like a self entitled twat donkey and special. Gear is handed out at such an astounding rate that is it any wonder that the wow community plummets into oblivion worse and worse by the day? There is no order to the food chain in the game because every1 is that special lil flower, thus turning every1 into assholes.
People said that about WOTLK raids too. Look at what happen. MORE people get into raids. It has become MUCH BETTER because of hard modes & assessibility. Do people leave in masses after WOTLK? Nope. Do top guilds still get their epeen from first kills and stuff .. yes.
This is just case of hardcore players being envious that now more people can now play in their previously exclusive territory. Even today, if you go to wow-heroes.com to see, not every guild can bring down all the ICC bosses. So i think the difficulty is pretty well tuned.
Bam your looking at the main reason right there.... "This is just case of hardcore players being envious that now more people can now play in their previously exclusive territory." When this heap of crap people call an MMo first came out it had its challenges, BWL was an actual feat to brag about, Onyxia was a pain to bring down if people were too slow, not smart, or just plain out didnt know how to play their class. But now as this gentleman so kindly confessed anybody can run into an instance no matter how bad of a player they might be and succeed in these "raids". So thats my first gripe of this game, its basically turned into an mmo for the mediocre while the folks that have been playing MMo's since the UO days stand around sratching there head at how easy some of the "raid" content is after beating it within hours of release.
Then there was pvp, cause world pvp just wasnt good enough.... enter the BG. Not saying it was a bad idea but when this brought on the pvp gear it completely ruined pvp and how pvp in most mmo's work today. MMO pvp used to be about teamwork or the lucky gank here and there. Now its about a dude running around as a 1 man army with 3 to 4 times the amount of health as a regular 90 and the ability to mitigate dam near all your damage and cancel out your crits. So it turns into a long boring drawn out battle between 2 pvp in full pvp gear or 1 guy in pvp gear spanking 5 or 6 player in non pvp gear. If you really wanted to solo pvp or do this arena type stuff why not play a FPS it definately take more skill to master and you can get the feeling of being a one man army for real, not just some chump with pvp gear on...
Wow has effected the MMO genre in the worst of ways, they used to be a cool genre with nice people, in fact i remeber when the only assholes for the most part were the non english speaking people. These days even they are nice and the pricks are these new wow players that have branched off into the other wow clones that come out and ruin the community. This is all do to the whole pvp thing, mmo's used to be about coming together accomplishing things as a group, now everything is a pissing contest. Personally FFXI was the best thing out there cause it had limited pvp that barely anybody played and people in that game were actually cool. EQ2 was that way as well and I have recently resubbed and to my surprise they have introduced PVP gear and guess what the cool cats are gone, nothing but ego maniacs in 1-9 talking about twinking and their pvp gear sets. Raiding is almost not even spoke of in that game anymore, Sad. These are the main reasons I hate WoW
Hmm how would making 10 man HARDER accomplish that?
Thing is, who said 10 mans would be getting harder? They said 10 and 25 man raids will be closer in difficulty which could mean either 10 mans will get harder or 25 mans will get easier. I have a feeling it will be the latter for the normal raids seeing as they are making both 10 and 25 man share the same lockout and loot levels.
That would also make Hard Modes actually seem 'Hard' to a lot more players. 10 and 25 man Hard Modes will also most likely share the same difficulty level with the only real difference being the loot drop quantity.
Why would 10 & 25 man share loot & lockout means that 25 man will be easier? It can mean that 10 man loot is going to be better & 10 man raids are going to be harder (than today). Simply we do not know and this consolidation is NOT proof that raids are getting easier.
"hard mode" *is* hard today. There are like only 3 guilds (check mmo-champion) IN THE WORLD who have killed the LK in 25 man hard mode. I am quite sure it will remain the case that few people (2%?) will ever finish all the raids in hard mode.
Heck, if you check wow-heroes, most guilds can even down the LK in NORMAL mode.
it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, the vote that counts is the wallet vote. WoW continues to win the wallet vote.
^ this is the bullshit that im talking about.
You can't talk to these people because they fail at debating.
news flash bro the "wallet" argument holds no water.
Do I need to bring up Mcdonalds or britney spears? popularity does not equal quality!
Flawed comparison. McDonald's charges a LOWER price than other restaurants.
Blizz charges the same or even higher (no one is charge more than $15 a month) than other MMOs.
People pick Mcdonald's because of its lower price. Since Blizz has NO lower price, if people pick it, that means they like it MORE (higher quality) than other $15 MMOs.
it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, the vote that counts is the wallet vote. WoW continues to win the wallet vote.
^ this is the bullshit that im talking about.
You can't talk to these people because they fail at debating.
news flash bro the "wallet" argument holds no water.
Do I need to bring up Mcdonalds or britney spears? popularity does not equal quality!
Flawed comparison. McDonald's charges a LOWER price than other restaurants.
Blizz charges the same or even higher (no one is charge more than $15 a month) than other MMOs.
People pick Mcdonald's because of its lower price. Since Blizz has NO lower price, if people pick it, that means they like it MORE (higher quality) than other $15 MMOs.
actually dude his argument is fine, its yours thats flawed. Mcdonalds is being used as an analogy vs other fast food chains with similiar competetive prices. Its not like Mcdonalds is competing with outback steakhouse or anything in his argument. So yea his argument holds water vs yours which is kinda apples to oranges bud. And to keep things civil, people make kanye west and britney spears the top selling musicians, are they the best? Wow is going down the drain faster then a fat man chasing a runaway cheese wheel.
Not that many people hate WoW apparently. It's numbers prove that, but what it is, is that there is always people out there who so badly want to be different from everyone eles. Hating WoW in the world of mmos is peoples way of being different. Its one thing not to like it, i don't like WoW anymore, but i don't hate it. I give it credit still because it deserves it. I guess im not "different" . ... : /
It's like hating the goverment because its to big. Along with that comes wrist cutting and shooting heroin
it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, the vote that counts is the wallet vote. WoW continues to win the wallet vote.
Ahh yet another WoW fanboi notch in my belt.
You guys fail on this forum.
"At the end of the day" is a cliche that is even more burnt out than the originality of this thread. Stop kicking the maggots that ate the dead horse guys, and come up with some new material ffs. This is beyond ridiculous.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Plus, some people have the mistaken belief that WoW changed the MMO world forever, in a negative way. But it's consumers' choices on how to spend their money that changed the MMO, not WoW. If people wanted more sandboxy games like Darkfall or Ryzom, then perhaps they would have more subscribers (of course, it does help to have the advertising power of Blizzard ).
I love WoW, but that doesn't mean I don't also love LoTRO, EQ2, EvE, among others.
How about if someone actually released a GOOD sandbox game. People don't buy it because it isn't good. The only sandbox game worth anything is EVE and it's a space game.. which almost no one likes. They have 300k subscriptions so it's logical to believe that if someone released a good fantasy based sandbox, it may get more attention than what you'd be lead to believe.
Plus, some people have the mistaken belief that WoW changed the MMO world forever, in a negative way. But it's consumers' choices on how to spend their money that changed the MMO, not WoW. If people wanted more sandboxy games like Darkfall or Ryzom, then perhaps they would have more subscribers (of course, it does help to have the advertising power of Blizzard ).
I love WoW, but that doesn't mean I don't also love LoTRO, EQ2, EvE, among others.
How about if someone actually released a GOOD sandbox game. People don't buy it because it isn't good. The only sandbox game worth anything is EVE and it's a space game.. which almost no one likes. They have 300k subscriptions so it's logical to believe that if someone released a good fantasy based sandbox, it may get more attention than what you'd be lead to believe.
this guy is spot on. The reason wow doesnt have much competition atm or in the past decade is because the companies that are going after it are doing a really half ass job. The market is there screaming for a new sandbox style MMO, unfortunately companies continue to drop the ball with rushed, half assed products that almost seem destined to fail even if wow never existed.
WoW has ruined the potential for variety. No studio in their right mind is going to spend 100 mil on a game that isn't a a wow like themepark.
You're never going to see an SWG again. You may get small studios making sandbox games, but the big boys will never touch them.
That is why I hate wow. It caused the industry to turn away from virtual world games before they got a chance to get it right.
This is it. I agree 100%. I love what WoW has done as far as it's ability to bring in so many gamers. It's actually made gaming cool for once. But, as far as the quality of titles being developed, that's a whole different story. It has stagnated the industry. The only way we'll start to see any original ideas become successful is when either WoW dies, or another company takes a chance and creates a good game. Not many have even tried since 2004.
Sure, some games may do a specific feature or two better but the whole package still results in a game that isn't as good as WoW. Some games focus on pvp while the pve lags. Serveral couldn't get much of an end-game going. Others seem terribly grindy. While you may argue that other games are better and provide all the evidence in the world, it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, the vote that counts is the wallet vote. WoW continues to win the wallet vote.
True.
Many who hate WoW don't really hate WoW. They want to feel 1337 This is a gross generalisation, and as many of the posts have shown in this thread there's a multitude of sensible reasons for liking and for disliking WoW besides the e-peen motives and the kiddy arguments.
Nobody in their boutique game cares so they come to mmorpg and post that they are a member of a 1337 boutique game. mmorpg.com is a site dedicated to all kinds of MMO's. So strange that it attracts a lot of people who like other MMO's more or just plainly dislike WoW? If you want merely WoW cuddling and praise, go to a WoW forum. If you like this site and forum, expect a larger diversity of tastes and opinions, also ones that don't stroke with yours.
None of us care that they are in some tedious boutique game either. "none of us" probably meaning WoW players and lovers. Once again, go to a WoW forum to cuddle up to other WoW liking people, if that's what you're looking for.
You are not 1337 in any way. You are not working on a cure for cancer, you are playing a game. If you'd rather appear 1337 than have fun, that's your thing. But don't nerd rage on those having fun.
The same applies to you: don't nerd rage on those who dislike or even hate WoW, just because your OP didn't convince them otherwise.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid? If you want to feel 1337, you would naturally look down on something the masses like.
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid?
Agreed. I also think the reason people hate WoW is the same reason so many people hate Avatar, Its not amazing (but still pretty good) and become wildly sucessful. Thus for some odd reason it is cool to not like the super mainstream popular stuff
Plus, some people have the mistaken belief that WoW changed the MMO world forever, in a negative way. But it's consumers' choices on how to spend their money that changed the MMO, not WoW. If people wanted more sandboxy games like Darkfall or Ryzom, then perhaps they would have more subscribers (of course, it does help to have the advertising power of Blizzard ).
I love WoW, but that doesn't mean I don't also love LoTRO, EQ2, EvE, among others.
How about if someone actually released a GOOD sandbox game. People don't buy it because it isn't good. The only sandbox game worth anything is EVE and it's a space game.. which almost no one likes. They have 300k subscriptions so it's logical to believe that if someone released a good fantasy based sandbox, it may get more attention than what you'd be lead to believe.
this guy is spot on. The reason wow doesnt have much competition atm or in the past decade is because the companies that are going after it are doing a really half ass job. The market is there screaming for a new sandbox style MMO, unfortunately companies continue to drop the ball with rushed, half assed products that almost seem destined to fail even if wow never existed.
Its because the companies copy what WoW did instead of what Blizzard did.
WoW got huge numbers. WoW was easy for people to jump into, WoW was etc, etc, etc. Thats what these companies are doing, copying WoW for WoW.
Problem is they are not looking at what Blizzard did to make WoW what it became. They are not focusing development on making a stable game or even decent content. Instead they almost copy/paste WoW into their game and spend the rest of the dev time hyping the game to be "A Better Game Experience". They gloat about Pre Orders and Forum user numbers instead of working on quest systems or group mechanics. They go on marketing campaigns instead of working Q&A. They hang out on their forums talking about all these awesome features the game is going to have instead of working on these features.
Then launch day comes and the game is an even more shallow experience than WoW and about as functional as a laptop that took a spin through a dishwasher. Most of the potential players will see the game as a clone of WoW and figure "well if I am going to play WoW I might as well play WoW..." while the rest will look at the game and see nothing but a lot of hype and hardly any game.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid? If you want to feel 1337, you would naturally look down on something the masses like.
I really liked WoW, played it a few years but there's so much wrong with this reasoning. Equating quality with success is a dangerous mistake.
Comments
True.
Many who hate WoW don't really hate WoW. They want to feel 1337
Nobody in their boutique game cares so they come to mmorpg and post that they are a member of a 1337 boutique game.
None of us care that they are in some tedious boutique game either.
You are not 1337 in any way. You are not working on a cure for cancer, you are playing a game. If you'd rather appear 1337 than have fun, that's your thing. But don't nerd rage on those having fun.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Are you kidding me? A mistaken belief that WoW did infact change the MMO Market for the worse? Hell yes it did, look at all the games to come out thus far, they are all WoW clones, their UI's almost look like they just outright stole it from Blizzard. Every single Major MMO that has come out sense WoW all share OBVIOUS resembalance to WoW. Anarchy did not resemble Ever quest, Everquest did not resemble UO. Companies stopped making UNIQUE mmos' they wanted the subscriber base that Blizzard gained with WoW. WoW did change the market for the worse, we have not had one decent MMO come out sense WoW. They have all been WoW clones with a weak subscriber base and even sillier fan bois. I predicted auto assualt was trash, people laughed on these forums and was I right? Hell yes, every NC soft game to come out sense they first started making changes to City of Heroes they have all been trash. Eve Online is probably the most unique MMO on the market right now. All the rest are all freaking WoW clones.
10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of itemsso what your telling me is that as IF raiding hasnt become too easy and a shell of its former self already that cata will seal the deal and deliver a deathblow. Why bother doin 25's if you can get the same rewards from 10. Less competition for my gear in 10 as well. WoW will lose a good chunk of subscriptions (mine included). I was unhappy with the repetetive dull nature of the raiding scene and the ease of it and then they go and make it more repetitive and easy. GG blizzard. Blizzard's constant catering to the lower spectrum of their player base is why people hate blizzard. This will go down as a star wars galaxy type moment for wow. GENTLEMEN GENTLEMEN!!!! This could very well lead to the end of the world............ of warcraft.
LOL .. more hated doomsaying.
People said that about WOTLK raids too. Look at what happen. MORE people get into raids. It has become MUCH BETTER because of hard modes & assessibility. Do people leave in masses after WOTLK? Nope. Do top guilds still get their epeen from first kills and stuff .. yes.
This is just case of hardcore players being envious that now more people can now play in their previously exclusive territory. Even today, if you go to wow-heroes.com to see, not every guild can bring down all the ICC bosses. So i think the difficulty is pretty well tuned.
So you have a problem with Blizzard planning to make 10mans harder to match the extra mechanics of 25mans and the fact that they plan to make the loot faster to obtain in 25mans and you think that this is a reason why people hate WoW?
It still remains to be seen how much actual content Cataclysm will have but this seems to reduce the repetivness and gear grind of raiding while removing the arbitrarty nature of 25mans having extra fight mechanics that were cut from 10man versions to appease the 25man raiders.
dont think of me as some forum troll here to bash your beloved game. I, too, love wow. I was behind them for cata until i read that change yesterday. Such a sad day for WoW. before long, raiding will consist of you guys walking into an empty room, hitting a red button and a treasure chest opens up with loot.
Hmm how would making 10 man HARDER accomplish that?
Thing is, who said 10 mans would be getting harder? They said 10 and 25 man raids will be closer in difficulty which could mean either 10 mans will get harder or 25 mans will get easier. I have a feeling it will be the latter for the normal raids seeing as they are making both 10 and 25 man share the same lockout and loot levels.
That would also make Hard Modes actually seem 'Hard' to a lot more players. 10 and 25 man Hard Modes will also most likely share the same difficulty level with the only real difference being the loot drop quantity.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
nah what i have a problem with is 10m's getting the same loot as 25's. Bringing them up from the ROFL status they are now is a good thing, but why destroy end raiding to do it? In reality all their going to do is nerf the 25's abit to make them abit more in line with the 10's. The truth is 10's will be harder but 25's will be easier then they already are (yes i hear the lawl from fellow bc/vanilla players) This is a case of greed by the 10m guilds who see people in 25m gear and say "its not fair bliz i deserve more gearz i did the same fight as they did!" Well, no you didn't. From leading a 25m guild i can tell you its 2-3x more challenging and rewarding to organize and structure 25 different opinions and attitudes together towards a goal. No one will do 25's after this change and for good reason. If you think you'll get "more lootz" from 25 your delusional man. Even if it drops 3-4 more pieces (i think it wont even drop that much) and say your item drops, you have to roll off vs 5-7 others vs maybe 1 in your 10m's. Meaning yah you have a higher chance of it dropping in 25 but you have a better chance of getting it in 10. To compound that problem, if you would do 2-3 10m's vs one 25, u'd get more loot! wtf!? I'm sorry alot of guilds can't clear ICC i won't shit on them because i realize people have different time commitments due to rl, but where does this entitled attitude of "i pay for my sub i deserve top gear" come from? Do you think about your RL and job(s) and relationships with that same self entitled attitude? The truth is its counterproductive to what an mmo is striving for, you want to keep your players playing longer and always having that xtra "something" to go for. This change is the definition of the phrase "too much carrot, not enough stick" Everyone is made to feel like a self entitled twat donkey and special. Gear is handed out at such an astounding rate that is it any wonder that the wow community plummets into oblivion worse and worse by the day? There is no order to the food chain in the game because every1 is that special lil flower, thus turning every1 into assholes.
Where do 25 man guilds get members from?
The 10 man guilds.
You see this all the time, you're in a 10 man guild, you help gear up a newbee and as soon as they are geared they are snatched up by a 25 man.
Also, some 10 man types will raid with another 25 man guild to fill up vacant slots.
It's more complicated than you are letting on.
The more geared up people around, the better it is for all really. As long as these people know what they are doing.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
LOL .. more hated doomsaying.
People said that about WOTLK raids too. Look at what happen. MORE people get into raids. It has become MUCH BETTER because of hard modes & assessibility. Do people leave in masses after WOTLK? Nope. Do top guilds still get their epeen from first kills and stuff .. yes.
This is just case of hardcore players being envious that now more people can now play in their previously exclusive territory. Even today, if you go to wow-heroes.com to see, not every guild can bring down all the ICC bosses. So i think the difficulty is pretty well tuned.
Bam your looking at the main reason right there.... "This is just case of hardcore players being envious that now more people can now play in their previously exclusive territory." When this heap of crap people call an MMo first came out it had its challenges, BWL was an actual feat to brag about, Onyxia was a pain to bring down if people were too slow, not smart, or just plain out didnt know how to play their class. But now as this gentleman so kindly confessed anybody can run into an instance no matter how bad of a player they might be and succeed in these "raids". So thats my first gripe of this game, its basically turned into an mmo for the mediocre while the folks that have been playing MMo's since the UO days stand around sratching there head at how easy some of the "raid" content is after beating it within hours of release.
Then there was pvp, cause world pvp just wasnt good enough.... enter the BG. Not saying it was a bad idea but when this brought on the pvp gear it completely ruined pvp and how pvp in most mmo's work today. MMO pvp used to be about teamwork or the lucky gank here and there. Now its about a dude running around as a 1 man army with 3 to 4 times the amount of health as a regular 90 and the ability to mitigate dam near all your damage and cancel out your crits. So it turns into a long boring drawn out battle between 2 pvp in full pvp gear or 1 guy in pvp gear spanking 5 or 6 player in non pvp gear. If you really wanted to solo pvp or do this arena type stuff why not play a FPS it definately take more skill to master and you can get the feeling of being a one man army for real, not just some chump with pvp gear on...
Wow has effected the MMO genre in the worst of ways, they used to be a cool genre with nice people, in fact i remeber when the only assholes for the most part were the non english speaking people. These days even they are nice and the pricks are these new wow players that have branched off into the other wow clones that come out and ruin the community. This is all do to the whole pvp thing, mmo's used to be about coming together accomplishing things as a group, now everything is a pissing contest. Personally FFXI was the best thing out there cause it had limited pvp that barely anybody played and people in that game were actually cool. EQ2 was that way as well and I have recently resubbed and to my surprise they have introduced PVP gear and guess what the cool cats are gone, nothing but ego maniacs in 1-9 talking about twinking and their pvp gear sets. Raiding is almost not even spoke of in that game anymore, Sad. These are the main reasons I hate WoW
^ this is the bullshit that im talking about.
You can't talk to these people because they fail at debating.
news flash bro the "wallet" argument holds no water.
Do I need to bring up Mcdonalds or britney spears? popularity does not equal quality!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Why would 10 & 25 man share loot & lockout means that 25 man will be easier? It can mean that 10 man loot is going to be better & 10 man raids are going to be harder (than today). Simply we do not know and this consolidation is NOT proof that raids are getting easier.
"hard mode" *is* hard today. There are like only 3 guilds (check mmo-champion) IN THE WORLD who have killed the LK in 25 man hard mode. I am quite sure it will remain the case that few people (2%?) will ever finish all the raids in hard mode.
Heck, if you check wow-heroes, most guilds can even down the LK in NORMAL mode.
Flawed comparison. McDonald's charges a LOWER price than other restaurants.
Blizz charges the same or even higher (no one is charge more than $15 a month) than other MMOs.
People pick Mcdonald's because of its lower price. Since Blizz has NO lower price, if people pick it, that means they like it MORE (higher quality) than other $15 MMOs.
actually dude his argument is fine, its yours thats flawed. Mcdonalds is being used as an analogy vs other fast food chains with similiar competetive prices. Its not like Mcdonalds is competing with outback steakhouse or anything in his argument. So yea his argument holds water vs yours which is kinda apples to oranges bud. And to keep things civil, people make kanye west and britney spears the top selling musicians, are they the best? Wow is going down the drain faster then a fat man chasing a runaway cheese wheel.
Not that many people hate WoW apparently. It's numbers prove that, but what it is, is that there is always people out there who so badly want to be different from everyone eles. Hating WoW in the world of mmos is peoples way of being different. Its one thing not to like it, i don't like WoW anymore, but i don't hate it. I give it credit still because it deserves it. I guess im not "different" . ... : /
It's like hating the goverment because its to big. Along with that comes wrist cutting and shooting heroin
"At the end of the day" is a cliche that is even more burnt out than the originality of this thread. Stop kicking the maggots that ate the dead horse guys, and come up with some new material ffs. This is beyond ridiculous.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
How about if someone actually released a GOOD sandbox game. People don't buy it because it isn't good. The only sandbox game worth anything is EVE and it's a space game.. which almost no one likes. They have 300k subscriptions so it's logical to believe that if someone released a good fantasy based sandbox, it may get more attention than what you'd be lead to believe.
this guy is spot on. The reason wow doesnt have much competition atm or in the past decade is because the companies that are going after it are doing a really half ass job. The market is there screaming for a new sandbox style MMO, unfortunately companies continue to drop the ball with rushed, half assed products that almost seem destined to fail even if wow never existed.
This is it. I agree 100%. I love what WoW has done as far as it's ability to bring in so many gamers. It's actually made gaming cool for once. But, as far as the quality of titles being developed, that's a whole different story. It has stagnated the industry. The only way we'll start to see any original ideas become successful is when either WoW dies, or another company takes a chance and creates a good game. Not many have even tried since 2004.
These are the arguments that I despise the most in these threads.
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
The MacDonalds/Britttney arguments are just as stupid because something that is popular can actually be high quality.
People really should use these types of hyperbole arguments and instead debate things on their merits.
See the red above
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid? If you want to feel 1337, you would naturally look down on something the masses like.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Agreed. I also think the reason people hate WoW is the same reason so many people hate Avatar, Its not amazing (but still pretty good) and become wildly sucessful. Thus for some odd reason it is cool to not like the super mainstream popular stuff
Its because the companies copy what WoW did instead of what Blizzard did.
WoW got huge numbers. WoW was easy for people to jump into, WoW was etc, etc, etc. Thats what these companies are doing, copying WoW for WoW.
Problem is they are not looking at what Blizzard did to make WoW what it became. They are not focusing development on making a stable game or even decent content. Instead they almost copy/paste WoW into their game and spend the rest of the dev time hyping the game to be "A Better Game Experience". They gloat about Pre Orders and Forum user numbers instead of working on quest systems or group mechanics. They go on marketing campaigns instead of working Q&A. They hang out on their forums talking about all these awesome features the game is going to have instead of working on these features.
Then launch day comes and the game is an even more shallow experience than WoW and about as functional as a laptop that took a spin through a dishwasher. Most of the potential players will see the game as a clone of WoW and figure "well if I am going to play WoW I might as well play WoW..." while the rest will look at the game and see nothing but a lot of hype and hardly any game.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I really liked WoW, played it a few years but there's so much wrong with this reasoning. Equating quality with success is a dangerous mistake.