People strongly dislike the direction WoW is going and feel the need to speak up because *gasp* they feel passionate about a game they once loved? The handing out epics like candy, makin every1 feel like special flowers and killing off 25's for cata has only made people speak up more. This is a game breaking moment for WoW. I said it earlier and i meant it, you have to have that carrot on the stick to keep people goin and with these cata changes alot of people will lose that carrot. I'd seriously be willing to wager wow loses more then just afew subs over this change. This is going to be a very SWG type moment, the game is going to hurt alot after this. I as a WoW lover for many years can't defend this latest action, this is going to rape their subscriptions and basically destroy WoW to alot of people, myself included. And if you think WoW still has 11 million players... rofl.
Originally posted by justandulas People strongly dislike the direction WoW is going and feel the need to speak up because *gasp* they feel passionate about a game they once loved? The handing out epics like candy, makin every1 feel like special flowers and killing off 25's for cata has only made people speak up more. This is a game breaking moment for WoW. I said it earlier and i meant it, you have to have that carrot on the stick to keep people goin and with these cata changes alot of people will lose that carrot. I'd seriously be willing to wager wow loses more then just afew subs over this change. This is going to be a very SWG type moment, the game is going to hurt alot after this. I as a WoW lover for many years can't defend this latest action, this is going to rape their subscriptions and basically destroy WoW to alot of people, myself included. And if you think WoW still has 11 million players... rofl.
Actually I think the game would become better with Cataclysm. First, like it or not, people are going to want to relevel from 1-60 to see the revamped starting continents and experience it again especialyl as a new race, myself included and I don't even like WoW that much. Stats are streamlined and tanking is putting on a whole new face to be more engaging. A lot of things are going to be addressed.
Now, I don't think its going to work perfectly, but I think their steps and direction with the classes and combat is the right one because right now its all number crunching bs, which has made the game stale in its own right. There's a lot more going on as well but we can go on all day about the changes in Cataclysm. I believe the exact opposite is going to occur and what better carrot on a stick than revamping the whole lowbie experience?
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid?
Agreed. I also think the reason people hate WoW is the same reason so many people hate Avatar, Its not amazing (but still pretty good) and become wildly sucessful. Thus for some odd reason it is cool to not like the super mainstream popular stuff
That's a good point.
The fact that Avatar scored that good at the box office, doesn't mean automatically that it's the best movie that came out/will come out in 2009/2010. Also, if a movie scores very good at the box office doesn't automatically mean it's just a mainstream popcorn or bad movie. To some WoW is a Matrix or Lord of the Rings trilogy, and to others WoW is more like a Transformers 2 or Avatar.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid? If you want to feel 1337, you would naturally look down on something the masses like.
I really liked WoW, played it a few years but there's so much wrong with this reasoning. Equating quality with success is a dangerous mistake.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I dont' hate WoW, I just hate the type of gamers the game has attracted.. I was on Arthas server and for a little while the server wasn't filled with whinner's, immature children, and bored illiterate spammers. But a couple months later, all that changed.. It got so bad, I couldn't even enjoy the game anymore because of them.. This is why the game gets a bad rep from gamers over the age of 24 like myself...
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid?
Agreed. I also think the reason people hate WoW is the same reason so many people hate Avatar, Its not amazing (but still pretty good) and become wildly sucessful. Thus for some odd reason it is cool to not like the super mainstream popular stuff
That's a good point.
The fact that Avatar scored that good at the box office, doesn't mean automatically that it's the best movie that came out/will come out in 2009/2010. Also, if a movie scores very good at the box office doesn't automatically mean it's just a mainstream popcorn or bad movie. To some WoW is a Matrix or Lord of the Rings trilogy, and to others WoW is more like a Transformers 2 or Avatar.
No the reason so many people have an issue with Avatar, is because Anti-environmentalism is currently fashionable. The USA was the last trendy thing to hate, now things have moved on. It's sad, but true.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
WoW is on top because it can be played casually. It is fun and you don't have to grind hard for a year to get into the game before something exciting happens. You aren't forced to play the game 24/7 or be left behind to become a weak surf. WoW has end game stuff for those with the stamina for sticking with the game after maxing out your level and seeing all the games content.
The problem with all the grinders out there is that they are all stick and no carrot. They will always be niche markets and convincing investers to stick with low profits will always make their survival tenuous. Just reality i'm afraid, the company that figures that will will be able to unseat Blizzard.
Most people have already stated this, but WoW has turned its back on the "hardcore" gamers. They have tailored their game to casual players. They hand out high level epics for running 5 man dungeons (via emblems). Many people look for challenges and expect to spend time gaining gear and progression. High gear score and progression is a joke these days when referred to WoW.
Most people have already stated this, but WoW has turned its back on the "hardcore" gamers. They have tailored their game to casual players. They hand out high level epics for running 5 man dungeons (via emblems). Many people look for challenges and expect to spend time gaining gear and progression. High gear score and progression is a joke these days when referred to WoW.
There aren't not that "many" hardcore players. Last time i heard, only 2% get into Sunwell. This is a step in the right direction. No game should cater to only 2% of the client base.
And if you look at the distribution of gearscore (for example, on wow-heroes), there is only a small percentage of player in full ICC 25 hardmode gear and even ICC 25 gear is NOT the norm. Sure a lower tier epic is easy to get, but NOT everyone can get the current tier gear without some work. The statistics show that.
For example, on my server (caelestrasz), the number of arcane mages with T10 264 robe (Sanctified Blood Mage Robe) is 78. The number people in T9 & T8 robes are 1056 (sum up all the more popular robes before it). That is less than 10% of the arcane mages getting T10 264 robe. We are not even factor in the other less popular lower tier robes.
Most people have already stated this, but WoW has turned its back on the "hardcore" gamers. They have tailored their game to casual players. They hand out high level epics for running 5 man dungeons (via emblems). Many people look for challenges and expect to spend time gaining gear and progression. High gear score and progression is a joke these days when referred to WoW.
5 man dungeons allow you to get you 'mid level' epics with about 2 months to get one piece of Frost Emblem loot. Running ICC10 for abotu a month will supplant most of that easily. ICC raiding is quite challenging where progression is determined by how skillfull your raid is and it takes time to progress throught and get all the gear.
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid? If you want to feel 1337, you would naturally look down on something the masses like.
It is a stupid argument because it mistakes correlation for causation.
WoW is a quality game and would still be a quality game even if it was not popular. At the same time popular things don't have to have good quality to stay popular. Plus the entire definition of what actually is quality is very much up to debate. What I consider to be quality food has my father want to throw up.
I also find it sad that you would attack me like this when I am probably one of the bigger WoW supporters on this forums. I just do not like the spacious arguments being used.
i been playing wow off an on again for 5 years curently off
the game is borring make a toon any class any race and i bet u know all the quest to take to level up fast + blizzard has made the game extra fast leveling with bouse exp and double exp after level 20
and what do u get for a hard core player 1-2 days of raiding one instance there no multy instance u can do
if blizzard had 2 raid instances both same level gear both have wimpy level and hard level. so players can do one instance for 1-2 days and another instance 1-2 day then that would be fun. but blizzard shot there foot off when they made it so any level 80 can get gear = to end game. hard core players loot by doing junky 5 man instances
and finaly they have to speed up these game they release 1 year between content is lol when there so many other game coming out that will replace wow do to beter grafics sound and game play
The amount of people who play WoW is a stupid argument to use because popularity does not mean quality.
Yeah it does.
Word of mouth is what got WoW 11 million subs.
If your game was good, word of mouth would get it 11 million subs.
The Internet spreads information or word of mouth quickly and efficiently these days. People hear about a game from an aquaintance, they try it and decide for themselves. It's a popularity contest with everyone voting.
If a better game than WoW appears, word of mouth will get it millions of subs and like in a week.
Unless you are saying 11 million WoW players are stupid? If you want to feel 1337, you would naturally look down on something the masses like.
It is a stupid argument because it mistakes correlation for causation.
WoW is a quality game and would still be a quality game even if it was not popular. At the same time popular things don't have to have good quality to stay popular. Plus the entire definition of what actually is quality is very much up to debate. What I consider to be quality food has my father want to throw up.
I also find it sad that you would attack me like this when I am probably one of the bigger WoW supporters on this forums. I just do like the spacious arguments being used.
I think that last line poses a very good reason why so many dislike WoW even more: the stupid ways of arguing that a considerable part of the strongest WoW defenders use, with the overtly (ab)used argument that subscriber numbers equals quality, and next to that that if you criticize aspects of their line of reasoning you're suddenly a member of the 'other side', a WoW hater and therefore l33t and an embittered niche MMO player (not that the extremists of the other side are any better, classifying WoW players as dumb, incompetent noob players).
If those paths of arguing would be scrapped by both sides, discussions would be a lot smoother, but hey, where would the e-peen and fun trolling and flaming be then that some enjoy so much, eh?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think that last line poses a very good reason why so many dislike WoW even more: the stupid ways of arguing that a considerable part of the strongest WoW defenders use, with the overtly (ab)used argument that subscriber numbers equals quality, and next to that that if you criticize aspects of their line of reasoning you're suddenly a member of the 'other side', a WoW hater and therefore l33t and an embittered niche MMO player (not that the extremists of the other side are any better, classifying WoW players as dumb, incompetent noob players).
If those paths of arguing would be scrapped by both sides, discussions would be a lot smoother, but hey, where would the e-peen and fun trolling and flaming be then that some enjoy so much, eh?
I have generally pretty strong 'internet filters' so unless these types of arugments do nto take over a thread I will just ingore them as they are irrelevant to the discussion. A side effect of this is that I tend to forget that people take idiots like that to heart. I will also take offence when someone makes and insulting statement that includes me among those idtions.
@memoir44: I can't figure out if your last post is to purposely troll or ignore Rockgod's comments, so I'm going to treat your post as if it's meant seriously and to the fullest extent of your mind and not just lazy thinking + posting.
Rockgod stated that the frustrating part is in seeing the same bulls**t argument being used again and again that 'popularity equals quality', and the poor debating in which such bs arguments are used.
After which you respond by doing exactly that again, making the exact argument again as a voice recording on repeat button, saying that 'the majority is always right'.
I think it has already been established with enough examples and confirmed by people who love WoW as well as by people who dislike WoW, that popularity does not in all cases equal quality (Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, blabla etc etc); sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
Additionally, saying that Rockgod and people like him aren't 'in the market' is just as silly. WoW is not solely 'the market', WoW is just an MMO, a huge MMO, in the total MMO market. And frankly, people who mistake WoW for being 'the whole market' are just being silly visiting and posting here, on this site, where a myriad of other MMO's are being discussed, besides WoW.
But ok, fine, next step:
Memoir44, you think that WoW is a 5-star restaurant and Rockgod claims it's more of a McDonald's.
Those are both solid opinions, take it from there: why is WoW to your eyes a 5-star restaurant, what are its key qualities that makes it better than other MMO's you've played. That 'soo many other players play it' is no argument. Or for someone who loves another MMO far more, why is WoW supposedly a cheap product compared to other MMO's that someone has played, what were the key qualities that made it jump out to your taste?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I hate WOW because of the number of WOW knockoffs is that their fault no. Its because of their financial success, do i think WOW is a horrible game no, many many more games are lacking in crucial things that make a MMO decent. However the MMO market is stagnant and has very little inovation taking place, why cause everyone is copying WOW. so here are my beefs with WOW and their effect on the MMO market
1. its gear dependant, many people who think they are good are no cause they grinded end game instances and got the uber gear.
2. Skill is almost a total myth in WOW on every level, PVP is all about gear and how your class matches up with other classes, the battlgrounds have killed any open world PVP, ( I was ranked in the top five on the server i played on in pvp KIlls) i never dilluted myself into thinking i was a uber player i just grinded kills more than other people
3. big group fight thru elites, go kill huge mob, welcome to WOW instances, they just keep cranking out more versions of what i just typed, ( i give them credit for thier work on this , but i give them a 0 for creativity)
4. the worst feature about wow by far, is the WORST coummunity in any MMO i have ever played before, and the GM's do not do nearly enough about it. Typical example a guy mentions in general channel he has cancer , at least 20 people go on and on about how much they wan't him to die. 0 suspensions of any kind
You confuse (on purpose) "popularity" with "succesful".
The first is "free", the second is based on "money".
That's why the simple fact that 11.5 million people WANT to pay 100's of dollars is not based on "free" popularity.
But it is based on hard cash money from people wanting to PAY for it.
You don't agree ? No problem.
To answer your question about the 5 star argument: the 5 star argument is based on the fact that WOW is far MORE expensive than a normal PC game (due to P2P) and it STILL is being the number one game in playing time for all PC games.
The cost to play WOW for 3 years would be at least 600 dollars. the cost to play COD MW2 would be 60 dollars.
That's why I say: WOW has the PRICE setting of a 5 star restaurant, while the other PC games charge 10 times less and so are the cheaper chains.
But helas WOW - despite its very steep price in subscription money - it has still by far the most playing.
So something is being played MORE despite having a price setting that is higher.
Make your own conclusions ...
That's a very logical argument which btw has something you can't explain by calling it "mediocre" for those people paying for it.
I used the term 'popularity' because it was being used by Rockgod
I disagree with (financial) success being used as the ultimate - or main - measure for quality: Avatar made 2 billion dollars on the box office, 750 mil in the US, while it was The Hurt Locker that merely made a 16 mil dollars in the US that swept the Oscars away - I know, I know, that also doesn't mean that The Hurt Locker is a 'better' movie than Avatar, but just saying that there are other factors besides popularity or (financial) success that can play a role regarding quality.
I wouldn't compare WoW with single player games, better just to compare it with other MMO's because everyone who plays his/her MMO for more than two months has already paid more than for a singleplayer game. But for the rest it was clear argumenting
I agree btw, that so many people wouldn't play WoW if it would plain suck or be succesful as it is if the game would just be mediocre. It may not be to the taste of everyone, and some may like other MMO's more, but that's always, tastes differ.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
True. The last category isn't unique to WoW, I see it with AoC, Aion, other MMO's as well; it's a love/adoration turned sour.
It's almost like a breakup with a gf; at the start of the relationship everything was peachy and your partner was simply divine. But after the breakup, especially if it was a bad one, often all the bad traits of the other person are being sprouted.
And especially if someone has quit a MMO with a bad taste in their mouth, or just lingered in it far too long even when the game was no fun to them anymore, then it's the negative aspects of the game that made them quit that keep with them longer, often not the great and wonderful things that made them pick up the game in the first place.
It's not unique for WoW, it also applies to other MMO's with as much a fanatic aversion. Only there are more people playing WoW and so more people quitting WoW, so those are the ones you hear more. Of course it's certainly not the case that all the people quitting WoW leave with a negative image about WoW. Just a number of them.
About WoW's gigantic succes: it has been the blessing and the bane of the MMO market.
It once and for all made a very large group of people aware of the MMO genre, where most of them were up till then at best merely vaguely aware there was such a thing. And it drew record numbers of new gamers into playing an MMO.
Unfortunately, it made the association MMORPG and WoW that strong that many aren't even aware there's far more to the MMO genre, as if WoW and its specific brand of MMO gamestyle is the only flavor that matters, the only course available.
And WoW's success had the blessing mixed with the curse, that it opened doors for a lot more MMO's to come, but with a lot of investors only see(k)ing dollar signs, no heart for the gaming genre just the profit and quick buck, with many a company too afraid to deviate too much from what they perceived (often wrongly) were the elements that made WoW great. Or being pushed by overruling investors to make their MMO be more like WoW.
It's a setup doomed to fail, hence the large number of bland, failing MMO's we've seen the last few years.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, the vote that counts is the wallet vote. WoW continues to win the wallet vote.
^ this is the bullshit that im talking about.
You can't talk to these people because they fail at debating.
news flash bro the "wallet" argument holds no water.
Do I need to bring up Mcdonalds or britney spears? popularity does not equal quality!
If the product was not good, you wouldn't "earn" the wallet vote every month would you ?
No one is holding a pistol to those millions who pay just to keep playing.
For those people WOW is worth paying 500, 600, 1000 dollars worth for playing it for 3, 4, 5 years and more.
.... while they could go out and buy another PC game (like COD) for 50 dollars and play ... free for years on end.
So explain me please, why a product which is 10 times MORE expensive is played MORE than cheaper games.
In your MacDonalds analogy: WOW is the 5 star - far more expensive - restaurant and still has 10 times more clients than the fast food (cheaper) chains.
You simply can't explain it in your logic: that's why you are frustrated and "mad". You can't picture yourself in the market.
Because the only logical reason would be: far more people like "it" more than other games.
It may not be better for you, but for 3, 4 or 5 years long it is better for those people (and then they are bored and come here to fuel the hatred).
You have to get over this feeling as it will hunt you down for every other game you 'll hype/play...
Next on your list: KOTOR. Now THAT'S what I call "fanboys": hoping and hyping for a game that isn't even in Beta.
Zorndorf my days of destroying you on these forums are long over.
I've made my point.
Look over my previous posts im not going to continue to repeat myself over and over.
Comments
People strongly dislike the direction WoW is going and feel the need to speak up because *gasp* they feel passionate about a game they once loved? The handing out epics like candy, makin every1 feel like special flowers and killing off 25's for cata has only made people speak up more. This is a game breaking moment for WoW. I said it earlier and i meant it, you have to have that carrot on the stick to keep people goin and with these cata changes alot of people will lose that carrot. I'd seriously be willing to wager wow loses more then just afew subs over this change. This is going to be a very SWG type moment, the game is going to hurt alot after this. I as a WoW lover for many years can't defend this latest action, this is going to rape their subscriptions and basically destroy WoW to alot of people, myself included. And if you think WoW still has 11 million players... rofl.
Actually I think the game would become better with Cataclysm. First, like it or not, people are going to want to relevel from 1-60 to see the revamped starting continents and experience it again especialyl as a new race, myself included and I don't even like WoW that much. Stats are streamlined and tanking is putting on a whole new face to be more engaging. A lot of things are going to be addressed.
Now, I don't think its going to work perfectly, but I think their steps and direction with the classes and combat is the right one because right now its all number crunching bs, which has made the game stale in its own right. There's a lot more going on as well but we can go on all day about the changes in Cataclysm. I believe the exact opposite is going to occur and what better carrot on a stick than revamping the whole lowbie experience?
That's a good point.
The fact that Avatar scored that good at the box office, doesn't mean automatically that it's the best movie that came out/will come out in 2009/2010. Also, if a movie scores very good at the box office doesn't automatically mean it's just a mainstream popcorn or bad movie. To some WoW is a Matrix or Lord of the Rings trilogy, and to others WoW is more like a Transformers 2 or Avatar.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Fully agree.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I hate WoW, because of the silly style, and ease of play.
I dont' hate WoW, I just hate the type of gamers the game has attracted.. I was on Arthas server and for a little while the server wasn't filled with whinner's, immature children, and bored illiterate spammers. But a couple months later, all that changed.. It got so bad, I couldn't even enjoy the game anymore because of them.. This is why the game gets a bad rep from gamers over the age of 24 like myself...
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
No the reason so many people have an issue with Avatar, is because Anti-environmentalism is currently fashionable. The USA was the last trendy thing to hate, now things have moved on. It's sad, but true.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
WoW is on top because it can be played casually. It is fun and you don't have to grind hard for a year to get into the game before something exciting happens. You aren't forced to play the game 24/7 or be left behind to become a weak surf. WoW has end game stuff for those with the stamina for sticking with the game after maxing out your level and seeing all the games content.
The problem with all the grinders out there is that they are all stick and no carrot. They will always be niche markets and convincing investers to stick with low profits will always make their survival tenuous. Just reality i'm afraid, the company that figures that will will be able to unseat Blizzard.
Archlinux ftw
Most people have already stated this, but WoW has turned its back on the "hardcore" gamers. They have tailored their game to casual players. They hand out high level epics for running 5 man dungeons (via emblems). Many people look for challenges and expect to spend time gaining gear and progression. High gear score and progression is a joke these days when referred to WoW.
There aren't not that "many" hardcore players. Last time i heard, only 2% get into Sunwell. This is a step in the right direction. No game should cater to only 2% of the client base.
And if you look at the distribution of gearscore (for example, on wow-heroes), there is only a small percentage of player in full ICC 25 hardmode gear and even ICC 25 gear is NOT the norm. Sure a lower tier epic is easy to get, but NOT everyone can get the current tier gear without some work. The statistics show that.
For example, on my server (caelestrasz), the number of arcane mages with T10 264 robe (Sanctified Blood Mage Robe) is 78. The number people in T9 & T8 robes are 1056 (sum up all the more popular robes before it). That is less than 10% of the arcane mages getting T10 264 robe. We are not even factor in the other less popular lower tier robes.
5 man dungeons allow you to get you 'mid level' epics with about 2 months to get one piece of Frost Emblem loot. Running ICC10 for abotu a month will supplant most of that easily. ICC raiding is quite challenging where progression is determined by how skillfull your raid is and it takes time to progress throught and get all the gear.
It is a stupid argument because it mistakes correlation for causation.
WoW is a quality game and would still be a quality game even if it was not popular. At the same time popular things don't have to have good quality to stay popular. Plus the entire definition of what actually is quality is very much up to debate. What I consider to be quality food has my father want to throw up.
I also find it sad that you would attack me like this when I am probably one of the bigger WoW supporters on this forums. I just do not like the spacious arguments being used.
i been playing wow off an on again for 5 years curently off
the game is borring make a toon any class any race and i bet u know all the quest to take to level up fast + blizzard has made the game extra fast leveling with bouse exp and double exp after level 20
and what do u get for a hard core player 1-2 days of raiding one instance there no multy instance u can do
if blizzard had 2 raid instances both same level gear both have wimpy level and hard level. so players can do one instance for 1-2 days and another instance 1-2 day then that would be fun. but blizzard shot there foot off when they made it so any level 80 can get gear = to end game. hard core players loot by doing junky 5 man instances
and finaly they have to speed up these game they release 1 year between content is lol when there so many other game coming out that will replace wow do to beter grafics sound and game play
moo all
People don't like WoW because it ruined MMO's plain and simple. Every MMO after WoW will copy it. Look at WAR, its PVP WOW.
Seems like a valid reason to not play WAR but pretty stupid reason to hate WoW.
Guess what i should of said is people dont Hate WoW its just they cant get a quality new game because of WoW so therefore they Hate it.
I think that last line poses a very good reason why so many dislike WoW even more: the stupid ways of arguing that a considerable part of the strongest WoW defenders use, with the overtly (ab)used argument that subscriber numbers equals quality, and next to that that if you criticize aspects of their line of reasoning you're suddenly a member of the 'other side', a WoW hater and therefore l33t and an embittered niche MMO player (not that the extremists of the other side are any better, classifying WoW players as dumb, incompetent noob players).
If those paths of arguing would be scrapped by both sides, discussions would be a lot smoother, but hey, where would the e-peen and fun trolling and flaming be then that some enjoy so much, eh?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have generally pretty strong 'internet filters' so unless these types of arugments do nto take over a thread I will just ingore them as they are irrelevant to the discussion. A side effect of this is that I tend to forget that people take idiots like that to heart. I will also take offence when someone makes and insulting statement that includes me among those idtions.
@memoir44: I can't figure out if your last post is to purposely troll or ignore Rockgod's comments, so I'm going to treat your post as if it's meant seriously and to the fullest extent of your mind and not just lazy thinking + posting.
Rockgod stated that the frustrating part is in seeing the same bulls**t argument being used again and again that 'popularity equals quality', and the poor debating in which such bs arguments are used.
After which you respond by doing exactly that again, making the exact argument again as a voice recording on repeat button, saying that 'the majority is always right'.
I think it has already been established with enough examples and confirmed by people who love WoW as well as by people who dislike WoW, that popularity does not in all cases equal quality (Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, blabla etc etc); sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
Additionally, saying that Rockgod and people like him aren't 'in the market' is just as silly. WoW is not solely 'the market', WoW is just an MMO, a huge MMO, in the total MMO market. And frankly, people who mistake WoW for being 'the whole market' are just being silly visiting and posting here, on this site, where a myriad of other MMO's are being discussed, besides WoW.
But ok, fine, next step:
Memoir44, you think that WoW is a 5-star restaurant and Rockgod claims it's more of a McDonald's.
Those are both solid opinions, take it from there: why is WoW to your eyes a 5-star restaurant, what are its key qualities that makes it better than other MMO's you've played. That 'soo many other players play it' is no argument. Or for someone who loves another MMO far more, why is WoW supposedly a cheap product compared to other MMO's that someone has played, what were the key qualities that made it jump out to your taste?
Now that'd be proper debating.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I hate WOW because of the number of WOW knockoffs is that their fault no. Its because of their financial success, do i think WOW is a horrible game no, many many more games are lacking in crucial things that make a MMO decent. However the MMO market is stagnant and has very little inovation taking place, why cause everyone is copying WOW. so here are my beefs with WOW and their effect on the MMO market
1. its gear dependant, many people who think they are good are no cause they grinded end game instances and got the uber gear.
2. Skill is almost a total myth in WOW on every level, PVP is all about gear and how your class matches up with other classes, the battlgrounds have killed any open world PVP, ( I was ranked in the top five on the server i played on in pvp KIlls) i never dilluted myself into thinking i was a uber player i just grinded kills more than other people
3. big group fight thru elites, go kill huge mob, welcome to WOW instances, they just keep cranking out more versions of what i just typed, ( i give them credit for thier work on this , but i give them a 0 for creativity)
4. the worst feature about wow by far, is the WORST coummunity in any MMO i have ever played before, and the GM's do not do nearly enough about it. Typical example a guy mentions in general channel he has cancer , at least 20 people go on and on about how much they wan't him to die. 0 suspensions of any kind
People do not hate WoW...they hate the other people playing WoW.
The ones intent on making the gaming experience non-enjoyable for others.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
"good" is a relative term.
I personally think a lot of B rate horror films are "good", that most people wouldn't watch in a million years.
I like alot of bands that most people would hate.
WoW is a "good" game to 11 million subscribers. Someone has to like it for it to be as subscribed to as it is.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
I used the term 'popularity' because it was being used by Rockgod
I disagree with (financial) success being used as the ultimate - or main - measure for quality: Avatar made 2 billion dollars on the box office, 750 mil in the US, while it was The Hurt Locker that merely made a 16 mil dollars in the US that swept the Oscars away - I know, I know, that also doesn't mean that The Hurt Locker is a 'better' movie than Avatar, but just saying that there are other factors besides popularity or (financial) success that can play a role regarding quality.
I wouldn't compare WoW with single player games, better just to compare it with other MMO's because everyone who plays his/her MMO for more than two months has already paid more than for a singleplayer game. But for the rest it was clear argumenting
I agree btw, that so many people wouldn't play WoW if it would plain suck or be succesful as it is if the game would just be mediocre. It may not be to the taste of everyone, and some may like other MMO's more, but that's always, tastes differ.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
True. The last category isn't unique to WoW, I see it with AoC, Aion, other MMO's as well; it's a love/adoration turned sour.
It's almost like a breakup with a gf; at the start of the relationship everything was peachy and your partner was simply divine. But after the breakup, especially if it was a bad one, often all the bad traits of the other person are being sprouted.
And especially if someone has quit a MMO with a bad taste in their mouth, or just lingered in it far too long even when the game was no fun to them anymore, then it's the negative aspects of the game that made them quit that keep with them longer, often not the great and wonderful things that made them pick up the game in the first place.
It's not unique for WoW, it also applies to other MMO's with as much a fanatic aversion. Only there are more people playing WoW and so more people quitting WoW, so those are the ones you hear more. Of course it's certainly not the case that all the people quitting WoW leave with a negative image about WoW. Just a number of them.
About WoW's gigantic succes: it has been the blessing and the bane of the MMO market.
It once and for all made a very large group of people aware of the MMO genre, where most of them were up till then at best merely vaguely aware there was such a thing. And it drew record numbers of new gamers into playing an MMO.
Unfortunately, it made the association MMORPG and WoW that strong that many aren't even aware there's far more to the MMO genre, as if WoW and its specific brand of MMO gamestyle is the only flavor that matters, the only course available.
And WoW's success had the blessing mixed with the curse, that it opened doors for a lot more MMO's to come, but with a lot of investors only see(k)ing dollar signs, no heart for the gaming genre just the profit and quick buck, with many a company too afraid to deviate too much from what they perceived (often wrongly) were the elements that made WoW great. Or being pushed by overruling investors to make their MMO be more like WoW.
It's a setup doomed to fail, hence the large number of bland, failing MMO's we've seen the last few years.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Zorndorf my days of destroying you on these forums are long over.
I've made my point.
Look over my previous posts im not going to continue to repeat myself over and over.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP