People hate WoW because they wish it's success on an MMO they're interested in that is currently in development. When that MMO fails to succeed in the way they had wished, they go an troll on forums about how much it sucks, stating core game features as flaws.
Do you know what this massive success brought to WoW? Here's a list, from my perspective. So...I totally disagree with you that players of other games "wish this" on their present favorite games. I played WoW when it was NOT like it is today, and imo....it was a far better game.
Here is what having 13 million subs brought to WoW (imo):
1- More people who had previously never played MMOs and had no understanding about progression and the nature of MMOs, and therefore whined a lot...a WHOLE lot...about how "long it takes to level and catch up with the people who have been playing since release," how long it takes to "get to ride a mount" and "they cost too much," Oooo waaah. This whining continued from the new players about pretty much everything.
2- Blizzard apparently, because of the mass numbers, begain to LISTEN to all the senseless whining and begain changing the game to accomodate people who really didn't have the time to play an MMO or the drive to "earn" their "achievements" in the game, because they didn't understand that the process of earning achievements....is actually PART OF traditional MMO game play.
3- Horrific community interactions. About two years into the game, the chat channels became rife with anal jokes, Chuck Norris jokes, and the most ridiculously immature sexist, moronic, repugnant conversation I have ever seen in any game world bar none.
4- Constant difficulty nerfs, including removing all "elite" mobs from the pre-70 game outside of dungeons. *sigh* It used to really be fun worrying about running into one of those while questing in zones....
5- Dungeon armor sets that used to all look a bit different (at least from class to class) now all look PRETTY MUCH the same across classes, with nothing more than slight color changes, and perhaps a different "glow" on the shoulders. I mean....we don't want anyone feeling "less than" anyone else because their armor isn't the same looking.....
WTF? I go out of my WAY to look different from other players, because I do NOT want to look like everyone else that has the same set of gear! But I suppose if you're less self-secure (or immature, or a child) you really want to look JUST LIKE all your peers... again *sigh*
6- Efficiently making leveling extraordinarily fast, because after all....it's not about the JOURNEY anymore (wtf is an MMO anyway? let's just forget leveling and give everyone max level toons...seems to be what people would prefer)...it's about "end game" destination now...so let's eliminate the need for the socializing required to actually get to know some people and perhaps group with them by adding an....INSTA-PUG TOOL!!! YAY!! Uhm.....not yay.
7- Making crafting even "easier" by requiring less mats and increasing the number of items you get from combinations. For crying out loud....crafting being a matter of gather mats, push ONE BUTTON wasn't easy ENOUGH??!!
8- Emblem gear and welfare epics for both PvE and PvP....again....don't want anyone to feel "less than." But then...let's add a 25 dollar RMT horsey that will remind some poor kid that is lucky ENOUGH to have parents that will pay his monthly bill, because they're below the poverty level....let's make him feel left out because he can't afford the 25 dollar RMT horsey....but....we'll make sure everyone has shiny identical armor (except for the highest difficulty raid gear). This seems rather contradictory to me.
I could go on.....and on.....and on.....and on......but all my reasons are only my opinions, and while some may not make sense to you...they certainly make sense to me.
No. I'm afraid you're inaccurate in your assessment of (at least ME) wanting that for MY preferred games. Thanks, but no thanks.
You're entitled to your love for your game, but you absolutely cannot put my disliking it off on some fabricated idea about game envy that doesn't exist. Most people that aren't playing WoW....aren't playing it because there are reasons they don't like it and that is WHY they play something ELSE. So how is it logical that they would want the game(s) they enjoy....to be more like WoW? Logic fail much?
Easy: you're that ex player of WOW, who played a game for 5 years and enjoyed it.
Now you can't figure it out why.
Nope, wrong again buddy.
Keep trying though.
We've told you why we hate WoW, stop inventing reasons for yourself.
I did not play WoW for 5 years.
I know everything about WoW, and wouldn't touch it with a 20 foot pole. It's just an endless gear grind, with nothing new in it. I got bored 4 hours into the trial, and no videos, no amount of playing at friend's houses, has convinced me its fun.
It is not new, it is not innovative, it never was, and I can't stand the art style
If I wanted a gear grinder, I'd play EverQuest, where at least there were no instances for a while, and the world was complex and dangerous, and there was a social aspect.
People hate WoW because they wish it's success on an MMO they're interested in that is currently in development. When that MMO fails to succeed in the way they had wished, they go an troll on forums about how much it sucks, stating core game features as flaws.
Er... do you honestly believe this? lmao
Yes, I do, prove me wrong please.
I do not wish WoW's success on Darkfall or Dark Age of Camelot, because that would mean both games have strayed from what makes them great, to appease the mass consumption ADD crowd. The only way WoW retains its 4 million population is because it is mind numbingly easy and simple. I don't want a game that simple, hence I'm not playing WoW.
What I hate WoW for, is for not innovating even the slightest bit, yet still recieving praise from Blizzard fanboys, and many of those fanboys don't even know an MMORPG genre exists. That, and how the MMO market effectively died after WoW came out.
There, I don't agree therefore you're proven wrong.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
I dont hate the game itself. I just hate the fact that I get bored with the game 10 minutes after I log into the game. Perhaps Cata will remedy this for a bit...
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
You don't, you didn't prove that the game was easy. It's like saying climbing Everest is easy to everyone you know, and then never climbing it to prove how easy it is!
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
You don't, you didn't prove that the game was easy. It's like saying climbing Everest is easy to everyone you know, and then never climbing it to prove how easy it is!
Again, further proving my point, and demonstrating why I stopped playing. That sort of elitist attitude drives more casual players away. I mean, god forbid you play a game because its fun.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
Everytime I read comments like this member has been making, I always check the person's profile. I case you havn't checked yourself, be advised you're speaking to a 17 year-old
Checking those profiles can really save you some time
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
You don't, you didn't prove that the game was easy. It's like saying climbing Everest is easy to everyone you know, and then never climbing it to prove how easy it is!
Again, further proving my point, and demonstrating why I stopped playing. That sort of elitist attitude drives more casual players away. I mean, god forbid you play a game because its fun.
People who play the game for fun...., apparently that type of player "ruins" the game for all the "hardcore" basement dwellers that collect pretty purples to be replaced in a month by other pretty purples. Yes... I know... you are not "hardcore" so stfu and gtfo cause you ruin the game for others you noob. Yeah yeah.. heard it all before LOL.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
You don't, you didn't prove that the game was easy. It's like saying climbing Everest is easy to everyone you know, and then never climbing it to prove how easy it is!
Again, further proving my point, and demonstrating why I stopped playing. That sort of elitist attitude drives more casual players away. I mean, god forbid you play a game because its fun.
I'm not saying you shouldn't play the game for fun. I'm just saying that people say the game is easy, yet when asked to prove it, they come up empty handed.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
Everytime I read comments like this member has been making, I always check the person's profile. I case you havn't checked yourself, be advised you're speaking to a 17 year-old
Checking those profiles can really save you some time
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
You don't, you didn't prove that the game was easy. It's like saying climbing Everest is easy to everyone you know, and then never climbing it to prove how easy it is!
Again, further proving my point, and demonstrating why I stopped playing. That sort of elitist attitude drives more casual players away. I mean, god forbid you play a game because its fun.
I'm not saying you shouldn't play the game for fun. I'm just saying that people say the game is easy, yet when asked to prove it, they come up empty handed.
That is actually a reasonable response. Sorry for slamming you.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
You don't, you didn't prove that the game was easy. It's like saying climbing Everest is easy to everyone you know, and then never climbing it to prove how easy it is!
Again, further proving my point, and demonstrating why I stopped playing. That sort of elitist attitude drives more casual players away. I mean, god forbid you play a game because its fun.
I'm not saying you shouldn't play the game for fun. I'm just saying that people say the game is easy, yet when asked to prove it, they come up empty handed.
That is actually a reasonable response. Sorry for slamming you.
Ok I reported you for calling me "Zorn". I am NOT Zondorf and you violated the forum rules by posting it.
Like I said : you see clones everywhere.
Well if you know of him, perhaps you'd be wise enough to avoid making the exact same comments as him. In addition, using his writing style is probably not be the smartest thing.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
Everytime I read comments like this member has been making, I always check the person's profile. I case you havn't checked yourself, be advised you're speaking to a 17 year-old
Checking those profiles can really save you some time
Ah... age descrimination... isn't it beautiful?
No.
I would just hate to see someone get worked up over nothing.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Easy: you're that ex player of WOW, who played a game for 5 years and enjoyed it.
Yes...yes I DID enjoy it.
Now you can't figure it out why.
I can give you probably 50 reasons why I enjoyED it. All of those reasons have now been either eliminated from the game, or....they've disintegrated, such as the great community that existed the first couple of years of the game.
It pretty much sums up the complexity of 50% of the WOW hate.
Again....I don't "hate" a game....any game....including WoW. I HATE what Hitler did to the Jews. I HATE that people in the world are suffering from various illnesses and horrifying diseases. I HATE that my son's best friends' mother commited suicide when he was just a young boy. I do not HATE a VIDEO GAME. But I do not LIKE IT.
Sorry if posting and shXXX on that game in forums now doesn't help.
Translation please??
It stays in your head, day and night. Seeking help from players of other games who struggle to survive won't help either.
Again....wtf are you even talking about?
You seek refugee in games like Lotro, Eq2, etc: games who already lost the battle of good game design YEARS ago.
If these games so "lost the battle"....why are people still playing them? Why are they still getting new content all the time? Why are they enjoyable to....not just me....but other people? They didn't lose any "battle." They are just games made for people who are DIFFERENT than the people who like WoW in its current state.
Shrug: just play.
Thank you! You do that too! We'll play different games and post on the forums about games, not only here, but on G4TV and on TenTonHammer and wherever else we enjoy reading and posting about our hobby AND....we'll both continue to play the games we love and it's WIN/WIN!
If you don't see the probem of WOW is actually YOUR problem, you'll run in circles for the next 10 years.
Yep that's the force of WOW. I can't help you either.
Who is running in circles? ROFL....omg.....man, sometimes I just don't understand you AT ALL. This post of yours probably wasn't directed at me, but regardless...those would be my responses to you if it was.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
Everytime I read comments like this member has been making, I always check the person's profile. I case you havn't checked yourself, be advised you're speaking to a 17 year-old
Checking those profiles can really save you some time
Ah... age descrimination... isn't it beautiful?
No.
I would just hate to see someone get worked up over nothing.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
Everytime I read comments like this member has been making, I always check the person's profile. I case you havn't checked yourself, be advised you're speaking to a 17 year-old
Checking those profiles can really save you some time
Ah... age descrimination... isn't it beautiful?
More like, "lack of experience, perspective and emotional stability descrimination.."
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
Everytime I read comments like this member has been making, I always check the person's profile. I case you havn't checked yourself, be advised you're speaking to a 17 year-old
Checking those profiles can really save you some time
Ah... age descrimination... isn't it beautiful?
More like, "lack of experience, perspective and emotional stability descrimination.."
Get over yourself WoW means nothing and the players mean even less.
If WoW "means nothing" then why does it occupy so much of your time?
Why would you scour the boards so incessantly looking for any reason to post your hatred of WoW?
If WoW truly was so meaningless then you wouldnt post about it at all.
Because im bored at work during breaks and enjoy mmo discussions? Also I don't only post on WoW forums. I post on Eve forums and the pub and general console games and off topic and War and Ryzom and I could go on and on...
With that said im not gonna go all crazy and start acting like people have mental issues because they don't like a video game.
Ok I reported you for calling me "Zorn". I am NOT Zondorf and you violated the forum rules by posting it.
Like I said : you see clones everywhere.
Well if you know of him, perhaps you'd be wise enough to avoid making the exact same comments as him. In addition, using his writing style is probably not be the smartest thing.
More like, "lack of experience, perspective and emotional stability descrimination.."
Isn't it the same thing really?
I'm not going to get into a discussion about discrimination.
Age doesn't matter per se, but is one of many considerations. You didn't do justice to your arguments and your age gives an indication why. If you articulated your arguments and sounded less like a "17 year old wow fanboi," then your age wouldn't matter.
Because your arguments tend to reaffirm the stereotype regarding your age, your age becomes relevant.
I'm willing to bet who ever initially called you out on your age wouldn't have even bother to look if your posts didn't give an indication as to your age.
My 2 cents.
And yeah, WoW is McDonalds now.... It used to be In & Out.
Let's look at McDonalds. A lot of people compare WoW to McDonalds. What's the difference, besides the thousands of obvious things? It's much more difficult to get to McDonalds.
You get to WoW from the computer in the spare room, or living room, etc.
You can't keep a good game down. News travels at hyper speed on the internet these days. If your game was good, everyone would know.
Your game is not good. How can I tell? Because it doesn't have very many subs.
Comments
Do you know what this massive success brought to WoW? Here's a list, from my perspective. So...I totally disagree with you that players of other games "wish this" on their present favorite games. I played WoW when it was NOT like it is today, and imo....it was a far better game.
Here is what having 13 million subs brought to WoW (imo):
1- More people who had previously never played MMOs and had no understanding about progression and the nature of MMOs, and therefore whined a lot...a WHOLE lot...about how "long it takes to level and catch up with the people who have been playing since release," how long it takes to "get to ride a mount" and "they cost too much," Oooo waaah. This whining continued from the new players about pretty much everything.
2- Blizzard apparently, because of the mass numbers, begain to LISTEN to all the senseless whining and begain changing the game to accomodate people who really didn't have the time to play an MMO or the drive to "earn" their "achievements" in the game, because they didn't understand that the process of earning achievements....is actually PART OF traditional MMO game play.
3- Horrific community interactions. About two years into the game, the chat channels became rife with anal jokes, Chuck Norris jokes, and the most ridiculously immature sexist, moronic, repugnant conversation I have ever seen in any game world bar none.
4- Constant difficulty nerfs, including removing all "elite" mobs from the pre-70 game outside of dungeons. *sigh* It used to really be fun worrying about running into one of those while questing in zones....
5- Dungeon armor sets that used to all look a bit different (at least from class to class) now all look PRETTY MUCH the same across classes, with nothing more than slight color changes, and perhaps a different "glow" on the shoulders. I mean....we don't want anyone feeling "less than" anyone else because their armor isn't the same looking.....
WTF? I go out of my WAY to look different from other players, because I do NOT want to look like everyone else that has the same set of gear! But I suppose if you're less self-secure (or immature, or a child) you really want to look JUST LIKE all your peers... again *sigh*
6- Efficiently making leveling extraordinarily fast, because after all....it's not about the JOURNEY anymore (wtf is an MMO anyway? let's just forget leveling and give everyone max level toons...seems to be what people would prefer)...it's about "end game" destination now...so let's eliminate the need for the socializing required to actually get to know some people and perhaps group with them by adding an....INSTA-PUG TOOL!!! YAY!! Uhm.....not yay.
7- Making crafting even "easier" by requiring less mats and increasing the number of items you get from combinations. For crying out loud....crafting being a matter of gather mats, push ONE BUTTON wasn't easy ENOUGH??!!
8- Emblem gear and welfare epics for both PvE and PvP....again....don't want anyone to feel "less than." But then...let's add a 25 dollar RMT horsey that will remind some poor kid that is lucky ENOUGH to have parents that will pay his monthly bill, because they're below the poverty level....let's make him feel left out because he can't afford the 25 dollar RMT horsey....but....we'll make sure everyone has shiny identical armor (except for the highest difficulty raid gear). This seems rather contradictory to me.
I could go on.....and on.....and on.....and on......but all my reasons are only my opinions, and while some may not make sense to you...they certainly make sense to me.
No. I'm afraid you're inaccurate in your assessment of (at least ME) wanting that for MY preferred games. Thanks, but no thanks.
You're entitled to your love for your game, but you absolutely cannot put my disliking it off on some fabricated idea about game envy that doesn't exist. Most people that aren't playing WoW....aren't playing it because there are reasons they don't like it and that is WHY they play something ELSE. So how is it logical that they would want the game(s) they enjoy....to be more like WoW? Logic fail much?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Nope, wrong again buddy.
Keep trying though.
We've told you why we hate WoW, stop inventing reasons for yourself.
I did not play WoW for 5 years.
I know everything about WoW, and wouldn't touch it with a 20 foot pole. It's just an endless gear grind, with nothing new in it. I got bored 4 hours into the trial, and no videos, no amount of playing at friend's houses, has convinced me its fun.
It is not new, it is not innovative, it never was, and I can't stand the art style
If I wanted a gear grinder, I'd play EverQuest, where at least there were no instances for a while, and the world was complex and dangerous, and there was a social aspect.
May I please see your ICC 25m achievement and fully epic'd character via WoW armory?
Or at least... you're fully epic'd sixty, I can compare the epics to those found in the old 40m Naxx...
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
I dont hate the game itself. I just hate the fact that I get bored with the game 10 minutes after I log into the game. Perhaps Cata will remedy this for a bit...
You know, its comments like this that make people hate WoW and WoW players. "You don't know shit unless you own some pixels"
You don't, you didn't prove that the game was easy. It's like saying climbing Everest is easy to everyone you know, and then never climbing it to prove how easy it is!
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
Again, further proving my point, and demonstrating why I stopped playing. That sort of elitist attitude drives more casual players away. I mean, god forbid you play a game because its fun.
Everytime I read comments like this member has been making, I always check the person's profile. I case you havn't checked yourself, be advised you're speaking to a 17 year-old
Checking those profiles can really save you some time
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
People who play the game for fun...., apparently that type of player "ruins" the game for all the "hardcore" basement dwellers that collect pretty purples to be replaced in a month by other pretty purples. Yes... I know... you are not "hardcore" so stfu and gtfo cause you ruin the game for others you noob. Yeah yeah.. heard it all before LOL.
I'm not saying you shouldn't play the game for fun. I'm just saying that people say the game is easy, yet when asked to prove it, they come up empty handed.
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
Ah... age descrimination... isn't it beautiful?
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
#1 level up
#2 heroics
#3 raids or pvp, depends which you want to do
????
Profit.
+Achievement grind for your main, this and leveling was most fun imo. Hated heroics and raids were nice for first few times only.
That is actually a reasonable response. Sorry for slamming you.
No problem. ^^
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
Well if you know of him, perhaps you'd be wise enough to avoid making the exact same comments as him. In addition, using his writing style is probably not be the smartest thing.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Why would you scour the boards so incessantly looking for any reason to post your hatred of WoW?
If WoW truly was so meaningless then you wouldnt post about it at all.
No.
I would just hate to see someone get worked up over nothing.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Okay... you lost me...
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
More like, "lack of experience, perspective and emotional stability descrimination.."
Isn't it the same thing really?
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
Because im bored at work during breaks and enjoy mmo discussions? Also I don't only post on WoW forums. I post on Eve forums and the pub and general console games and off topic and War and Ryzom and I could go on and on...
With that said im not gonna go all crazy and start acting like people have mental issues because they don't like a video game.
It's just not that serious.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
We all know who it is.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm not going to get into a discussion about discrimination.
Age doesn't matter per se, but is one of many considerations. You didn't do justice to your arguments and your age gives an indication why. If you articulated your arguments and sounded less like a "17 year old wow fanboi," then your age wouldn't matter.
Because your arguments tend to reaffirm the stereotype regarding your age, your age becomes relevant.
I'm willing to bet who ever initially called you out on your age wouldn't have even bother to look if your posts didn't give an indication as to your age.
My 2 cents.
And yeah, WoW is McDonalds now.... It used to be In & Out.
If your boutique MMO was any good.
It would have millions of subs.
Let's look at McDonalds. A lot of people compare WoW to McDonalds. What's the difference, besides the thousands of obvious things? It's much more difficult to get to McDonalds.
You get to WoW from the computer in the spare room, or living room, etc.
You can't keep a good game down. News travels at hyper speed on the internet these days. If your game was good, everyone would know.
Your game is not good. How can I tell? Because it doesn't have very many subs.
Thank you for your time.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren