Originally posted by uquipu So, and this is just tossing out an idea, you could have one soul and six bodies.
Of the six bodies, one might be a tank, another a crafter, another a healer, and yet another might be a DPS and so on.
The single soul could only occupy one body at a time. So even if you had six bodies, you could only play one at a time.
You might have to log out and log back in to play another for example.
If you would literally rip off exactly what EVE Online is and put it into a fantasy context, that is exactly what you would be doing. But hopefully less generically, like one would be a swordmaster, the other would be polearm elite, another body would be built for thievery, another for fire magic etc.
In EVE, you could be DPS, but you could be dpsing with missiles only or long-range lasers or short ranged projectiles or long-ranged projectiles etc. As a DPS, you could be built more for damage or more for survival etc. With tradnig you can be built for maximum cargo or more for stealth and safety if you are treading dangerous territory.
Things will have to be broken down into very specifics outside the generic healer, tank, and damage.
Originally posted by uquipu So you wouldn't train to cast a simple heal spell? How do you determine if someone can cast a heal spell?
I am not sure what you are asking here...
Do not take one of the comments above about World of Darkness seriously. Pretty much nothing is known about that project and even hinting it will have the same skill system as EVE is unfounded mouthing.
There is much much more than skill system to be considered. Many mechanics are attached to it.
I am in Perpetuum Online beta, a game that uses a lot of EVE ideas but implement them their own way and I can tell you that there are A LOT of issues with that.
ie. the game uses a skill system based on real-time gaining but...in EVE this works very well because the whole game is heavily zoned and there is no 'twitch' control of your ship, instead you have crap load of mechanics like transversal velocity, ranges, weapon sizes, etc. This suits very well to promote the differences in ships and their weaponry. That goes in return to skill system where you are allowed to easily specialize in certain a ship and ship size.
Perpetuum uses WASD movement and currently any specialization is meaningless because of twitch based controls disabling deeper combat mechanics EVE use.
So the answer could be: Yes, you can have real-time skill system but it will have nothing to do with EVE Online.
So, and this is just tossing out an idea, you could have one soul and six bodies.
Of the six bodies, one might be a tank, another a crafter, another a healer, and yet another might be a DPS and so on.
The single soul could only occupy one body at a time. So even if you had six bodies, you could only play one at a time.
You might have to log out and log back in to occupy another body for example.
That's a pretty apt description, although you would not have to logout. You'd "simply" change ships and ship equipment (in quotes because there really is no simply in eve e.g. your other ship might be stored in another station an hour away). So for example, you could train up in "dps" (say a cereberus) and "tank" (say a battleship), and the ship you currently use would define your role.
Unless I'm missing something (which is certainly possible), there's very little reason to have more than one character in eve. You can only train one character at once, so you might as well train everything on one character and just swap ships and gear. I guess you might have a good reason to have more characters if you want one ready to go immediately after another had something happen to it (e.g. corporate warfare). That way if one character's ship gets blown up you could immediately launch another character close to the battle with a different (or I guess same) type of ship. But it might not really matter as if you got podded you could just get cloned and go back to battle with spare ships.
Yeah, eve's a complex universe, and more to the OP's point I think it would be fantastic in a planetary setting (does not have to be "fantasy"). The only real beef I have against eve is that all resources and ships are the same with no variation amongst different crafters. Coming from old swg, I'd prefer varying resource qualities and experimentation in crafting.
As the title asks, EVE has an awesome game system where advancment is based on their longevity "learning" system that acts in real time...
Lately the word "grind" comes up a lot in games and people hate it or are atrying to think up new and creative ways to circumvent it with either bots, macro's, sploits, etc...
From my short time in EVE (I by no means profess to be n expert) it seemed that everything was soley based on properly filling out your leaning trees and just playing the game, the only real grind (if you want to call it that) is earning ISK (the games currency for those not familiar), or materials to craft with...
the only thing in this system that I wash was different, was some form of reward system for those who were active as opposed to a player who parks his character and just logs in to fill up their learning trees... perhaps bonus learning time for those who complete missions or are active in the game...
But can this work in a fantasy setting? Gamers would sub the game, there would be zero grind (except for maybe coin or crafyt materials) and players can exist, and how successful they are is based mainly on the individuals skill, dedication to the game (casual or hardcore) and ability to plan ahead thinking about how they want their character to eventually develop...
I know Alganon implimented a learning system in their game, which seems like a more secondary or even tertiary means of advancmenet, but that game in its current state is a train wreck off the rails...
Could this work as a primary advancement system... Think EVE meets Darkfall...
There's a game named Perpetuum its basically Eve online with Mechs on planets.
if that game works i dont see a reason why a fantasy one can't.
Basically it would be Darkfall with actual choice (a empire space area).
I like the idea of the six bodys 1 soul, you rebuild your body while your sould slowly gets stronger.
Another simple way for eve's skill system to work is vampires. As we all know older vampires get the stronger they get, you would just have to increase this a bit (or make time go very fast in game) and then you'd have characters advancing over time.
Another idea is some sort of genetic mutation. Your character's dna slowly grows more adaptable over time and you can choose which parts of your dna to actively use in your current body. Though this sounds more like a sci fi game.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
So would everyone in this Eve fanstasy hybrid be able to create a tank/healer/mage by training the right skills?
A tank/healer/mage can take a hell of a beating, dish out enourmous damange and heal. Bascially a WoW five man rolled into one.
I mention this because you could do this in UO.
Yes, in theory you can do this. But it takes quite a lot of training time to get fully skilled in those roles, so it's better to specialise early on and be good at one or two roles rather than poor in many roles. Sure, eventually you will be great at everything, just as eventually a WoW player wil have a maxed out level 80 alt in every class. (Do most WoW players get their guy to 80 then work on alts, or is it more usual to roll 1 alt of each class and level them evenly?)
The main thing I like about EVE's skill system is that it takes out the skill/level grind and leaves me free to actually play the game. I have seen a lot of people complain that the skill system "plays the game for you", but they're stuck in a mindset where character progression is the game. Or perhaps I should say character sheet progression.
For an EVE player, skills are a tool used to advance his goals, and they're not even necessarily the most important tool (depending on the goal).
Yeah, eve's a complex universe, and more to the OP's point I think it would be fantastic in a planetary setting (does not have to be "fantasy"). The only real beef I have against eve is that all resources and ships are the same with no variation amongst different crafters. Coming from old swg, I'd prefer varying resource qualities and experimentation in crafting.
There is a lot CCP could do to make industry more interesting IMO. But I guess they only have so many guys.
So would everyone in this Eve fanstasy hybrid be able to create a tank/healer/mage by training the right skills?
A tank/healer/mage can take a hell of a beating, dish out enourmous damange and heal. Bascially a WoW five man rolled into one.
I mention this because you could do this in UO.
No.
As I said before, the skill system is minor in EVE.
The skills only determine how well and what tools you can use - ships and their fittings.
The ship and fittings defines your role, not your skills and you can fly only 1 ship at a time.
It is more complex than OP is presenting...
So you wouldn't train to cast a simple heal spell? How do you determine if someone can cast a heal spell?
You can train all the skills you like, but the skills in and of themselves do nothing. You have to have the module fitted to your ship, and ships only have a limited number of module fitting slots, and a limited amount of powergrid + CPU to share between those modules. EVE is all about opportunity costs. It's pretty much the defining concept of the game.
So would everyone in this Eve fanstasy hybrid be able to create a tank/healer/mage by training the right skills?
A tank/healer/mage can take a hell of a beating, dish out enourmous damange and heal. Bascially a WoW five man rolled into one.
I mention this because you could do this in UO.
if the fantasy game were modeled off of eve's skill system, this theoretical healer/tank/damage dealer would take 4 or so years to create fully. as much time as it would take to, in another game, level up a tank, healer, and mage.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
So would everyone in this Eve fanstasy hybrid be able to create a tank/healer/mage by training the right skills?
A tank/healer/mage can take a hell of a beating, dish out enourmous damange and heal. Bascially a WoW five man rolled into one.
I mention this because you could do this in UO.
No because certain skills only benefit certain ships. Like if i train in Blasters and armor tank those skills wouldnt mean jack if i was flying a shield tank missile boat.
Would be the same way in a fantasy version
You could train to be a tank, healer, mage, archer but if your wearing a caster robe your non-mage skills wouldnt really work.
Problem is how would the game stop people from creating gear switch macros and shit. I guess they could make it that you only can change armor sets/items in major Npc camps/cities. that could work.
No because certain skills only benefit certain ships. Like if i train in Blasters and armor tank those skills wouldnt mean jack if i was flying a shield tank missile boat.
Would be the same way in a fantasy version
You could train to be a tank, healer, mage, archer but if your wearing a caster robe your non-mage skills wouldnt really work.
Problem is how would the game stop people from creating gear switch macros and shit. I guess they could make it that you only can change armor sets/items in major Npc camps/cities. that could work.
You are thinking too small here, there is no need for tank, healer and DPS in a MMO. It is just a way to make combat easier but you can do a MMO without that and if you are using Eves system you might as well make the combat system different too.
Guildwars uses a totally different mechanics were the mobs go for the easiest kill and it works fine. You still need a healer there but there are ways around that too, like pots or for that matter no healers or even no magic.
Heroes don't get healed all the times in books, having no heal whatsoever during combat and a fast hp regen after would make a different experience but I don't think it would be boring.
As for people changing armors you can just let it take real time, I actually have a real armor (viking model, simple) it takes a rather long time just to get into or out of a chainmail.
Or you could have a realistic weight system, I promise that no real person would carry around a second armor in their backpack for a full day, just my Chainmail (rather short one, cover upper arms and a bit below the waist) weights 11 kilos and while you can have just that in the backpack the other stuff adds to.
Eves mechanics would work well in a fantasy/historical MMO as long as you add a fun combat system to it. If you just add the old EQ system most MMOs uses still I think it would be rather bad.
With a fun way of splitting up the skills it could actually be really fun. Should you sneak or use a plate armor? Fight from foot or horse? Use a shield, zweihander or a main gauche dagger? If you add primitive guns with realistic properties (looong loading time, will punch through a heavy armor like butter) things would be very interesting.
If you uses Eves system you might as well add at least a little realism (most games have almost zero realism today, just a little will still be fun).
No because certain skills only benefit certain ships. Like if i train in Blasters and armor tank those skills wouldnt mean jack if i was flying a shield tank missile boat.
Would be the same way in a fantasy version
You could train to be a tank, healer, mage, archer but if your wearing a caster robe your non-mage skills wouldnt really work.
Problem is how would the game stop people from creating gear switch macros and shit. I guess they could make it that you only can change armor sets/items in major Npc camps/cities. that could work.
You are thinking too small here, there is no need for tank, healer and DPS in a MMO. It is just a way to make combat easier but you can do a MMO without that and if you are using Eves system you might as well make the combat system different too.
Guildwars uses a totally different mechanics were the mobs go for the easiest kill and it works fine. You still need a healer there but there are ways around that too, like pots or for that matter no healers or even no magic.
Heroes don't get healed all the times in books, having no heal whatsoever during combat and a fast hp regen after would make a different experience but I don't think it would be boring.
As for people changing armors you can just let it take real time, I actually have a real armor (viking model, simple) it takes a rather long time just to get into or out of a chainmail.
Or you could have a realistic weight system, I promise that no real person would carry around a second armor in their backpack for a full day, just my Chainmail (rather short one, cover upper arms and a bit below the waist) weights 11 kilos and while you can have just that in the backpack the other stuff adds to.
Eves mechanics would work well in a fantasy/historical MMO as long as you add a fun combat system to it. If you just add the old EQ system most MMOs uses still I think it would be rather bad.
With a fun way of splitting up the skills it could actually be really fun. Should you sneak or use a plate armor? Fight from foot or horse? Use a shield, zweihander or a main gauche dagger? If you add primitive guns with realistic properties (looong loading time, will punch through a heavy armor like butter) things would be very interesting.
If you uses Eves system you might as well add at least a little realism (most games have almost zero realism today, just a little will still be fun).
Im just saying skills are attachted to items so someone can't do everything at once. don't read to deep into the roles i was using. was trying to make myself understood to a themepark player.
A direct port from EVE's game mecahnics -> fantasy wouldn't work, in our predefined ideas of what fantasy games have and don't have.
In EVE, it makes sense that you can't just whip out a sword and full plate mail armour mid-fight, but since so many people play WoW, they've come to expect it, and shun things that don't include it.
Some other things to consider:
-Offline progression vs. in-game progression
Would we have in-game progression? Surely we would, there's no experience like hands-on experience, afterall. So how would it work? Like UO? What about this:
Offline progression = number X.
Online progression and actual combat modifier = X * number Y.
If a person were to, say, study the art of swordsmanship, their swordsmanship X number would increase. If they were to use a sword in combat, ala UO, their actual progression that is made online would increase by X*Y.
So a well learned person can more easily understand the ins and outs of their fighting and learn from it, where as a person going into a sword fight like a mad beserker will learn less (but still, eventually, learn the art, even if in a bastardised fashion).
That is just one example of how the whole offline progression thing could work.
Second.
-Character roles and stuff, switching in combat, etc.
How do we prevent this/keep it to EVE's style of "skills aren't your character, merely the ability to use tools. Your available tools, and how well you use them, is what matters"?
Well, we could take from another incredibly popular game (sigh... from Blizzard, before they were the devil) - Diablo/Diablo II.
They had a system there that I really enjoyed greatly, involving things like strength requirements on items, rather than pure level requirements. At times there were fantastic items for my barbarian, and I needed to increase my intelligence/whatever it was....
But back to the backpack - in this case we would likely make it smaller (perhaps with other options and things for backpacks, like one that has many small grids that can carry more stuff overall, but not big things like armor/swords etc.) - but a two handed sword was 4 units high and one unit wide. A Scythe was 4 units high and 2 units wide. A nice set of armour was 4x2 or 3x2 in some cases - the same with leggings. A player usually couldn't carry -too much- stuff around, and that's the way it should be.
If we were to keep to EVE's style, a person could train their swordsmanship up, and then have a two handed sword equipped. If they also have "channeled magic" trained up, allowing their magic to be more powerful when they have a two handed staff out, well, they're going to have to sacrifice some backpack room for their staff, won't they? And what if the enemy drops something of great importance, now they'll probably have to drop the staff/sword to be able to fit the item into their backpack. Haven't done something like that in a while, have ya?
Just some ideas.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Fantasy is different because of the casters, but you still could do it...
Look at Earthrise, which is currently in development and to be released at the end of the year, if they don't push it back another time.
You can learn all skills in Earthrise and skillpoints are gained by completing quests, crafting items or killing stuff, but you don't gain skillpoints in pistols or rifles, but you have a combat-skillpool and a craftig-skillpool and you're buying skills and skill-levels with your skillpoints.
Additionally you can't use every skill at the same time, but your skills have to match your equipment, and you#re limited to a set of 16 skills at a time. You can swap your equipment and your skill-template, but you don't want to do this midfight, as it can't be done instantly.
So yes, the possibilities are there, but you need a developer who is willing to do it.
there all a fantasy nothing is real its all whether you fantasize about being in armor with a sword in medieval days or in armor with a ranged weapon in a futuristic setting
eve system could work in fantasy setting easily. it would need personal scale mechanics, but the rest is adaptable.
edit: clarification: a lot of people have preconceptions of what fantasy is. personally, i don't take D&D classes and hit points per level as canon. sword could one-shot just as efficiently as blaster rifle. it can be done, as long as people are willing to accept they are NOT special snowflakes by default, but their player's skills can most certainly make them so.
I really disliked Eve's leveling system. Your leveling was linked to real time, not your progression through the PvE content.
Those who play a lot finish the PvE content sooner, whereas casual players will take much longer. On average both types of players will spend about the same amount of time in game to explore the content. Progression (exploration) of PvE content is more a function of time spent in game, not how much time has elapsed in real life.
For the Eve system to work for PvE, the skills either have to be useless so that they make no difference in game, or the content is all instance based to match your skill levels. You may have one person exploring end game content after 3 months while another might take 12 months to reach that content. Both should have a challenging and satisfying experience regardless of how much time has elapsed in real life.
Originally posted by thorwood I really disliked Eve's leveling system. Your leveling was linked to real time, not your progression through the PvE content. Those who play a lot finish the PvE content sooner, whereas casual players will take much longer. On average both types of players will spend about the same amount of time in game to explore the content. Progression (exploration) of PvE content is more a function of time spent in game, not how much time has elapsed in real life. For the Eve system to work for PvE, the skills either have to be useless so that they make no difference in game, or the content is all instance based to match your skill levels. You may have one person exploring end game content after 3 months while another might take 12 months to reach that content. Both should have a challenging and satisfying experience regardless of how much time has elapsed in real life.
Sorry to hear you didn't like EVE skill progression but you might look at it from different perspective to understand the game concept better.
1) There are no levels, thus there is no leveling. You do not play the game to level your character.
2) There is no content to finish nor there is anything like 'end game'.
EVE Online is all about playing the game. That can be missions, mining, PVP, trading, manufacturing, etc. anything you enjoy and find worthy and fun doing.
Instead of general concept where you need to acquire certain amount of resources, like levels or experience points, to perform certain activity, EVE goes the other way round and allows you to pick an activity you prefer and the skill points, ISK and assets will come along.
Originally posted by Gdemami Originally posted by thorwoodI really disliked Eve's leveling system. Your leveling was linked to real time, not your progression through the PvE content. Those who play a lot finish the PvE content sooner, whereas casual players will take much longer. On average both types of players will spend about the same amount of time in game to explore the content. Progression (exploration) of PvE content is more a function of time spent in game, not how much time has elapsed in real life. For the Eve system to work for PvE, the skills either have to be useless so that they make no difference in game, or the content is all instance based to match your skill levels. You may have one person exploring end game content after 3 months while another might take 12 months to reach that content. Both should have a challenging and satisfying experience regardless of how much time has elapsed in real life.
Sorry to hear you didn't like EVE skill progression but you might look at it from different perspective to understand the game concept better.
1) There are no levels, thus there is no leveling. You do not play the game to level your character.
2) There is no content to finish nor there is anything like 'end game'.
EVE Online is all about playing the game. That can be missions, mining, PVP, trading, manufacturing, etc. anything you enjoy and find worthy and fun doing.
Instead of general concept where you need to acquire certain amount of resources, like levels or experience points, to perform certain activity, EVE goes the other way round and allows you to pick an activity you prefer and the skill points, ISK and assets will come along.
Remember that many people refer to any type of progression as "levelling." For that matter, EVE does have skills, and those skills do have levels. Many people might call that levelling regardless. That said, I agree with Thorwood in that I strongly dislike EVE's progression system. Very strongly. In fact, I very much enjoy the rest of the game, but that puts me off so much that I will not play it. CCP did a great job with the game, and I am looking forward to their rendition of the World of Darkness, but I cannot abide a system in which your progression is in no way tied to your playing. Even is basic traditional levelling systems, you can only progress if you are actually doing stuff (usually killing things). In Ryzom (my current shining example of how progression should be done), you can only progress by actually performing the actions to be progressed. There are many specific things to dislike about the system, but in Ryzom, as in EVE, you do not play to grow more powerful, at least, not only for that reason. You play to explore, to socialise, and to experience the world.
With this in mind, I also agree with Thorwood in that progression of PvE content is a function of time spent playing, not time that has passed in the real world. To my mind, the real world has no place in my MMO, for any reason whatever. Also, to my mind, the experience of gradually growing stronger is paramount in importance with regards to my enjoyment of a game. I begin weak, and I take tentative steps into the world, eventually becoming a force to be reckoned with. Of course, with EVE, you do gradually become more powerful by learning things with skill points, but this has no relationship to my playing at all. I have been criticised by EVE players before for complaining that I do not like this system because it takes so much time to become viable or becomes a new player can never catch up with the old ones. Those are both viable arguments, of course, and are ones that I think prevent many people from enjoying the game, but (regardless of my thinking it is elitist of EVE players to say those things), that is not why I do not like it. It is simply, as I have said, the disconnect between my actions and my progression. That lack of connection makes me feel that in many ways my actions in the world have little meaning.
Of course, that is not true in a game world and a game economy so well-conceived as in EVE, but that does not change the way it feels to me. Here is an example of something that can be done in EVE because of this that sits ill with me, and that you could not do if your actions caused your abilities to increase. Say I want to learn how to use some fancy ship class (I forget ship names, so please forgive me.) Let us call it a frigate. The frigate is very powerful, slow, and hard to master. You would not want to take a frigate out before you know how to fly it well because you will get blasted from the sky. Instead you have fun in a smaller, faster, easier craft while your brains downloads skill points for flying the frigate, and any peripheries for doing so. In a month or so you are ready to go. You have everything top notch. Now you take that frigate out for a spin. You are a master of frigates and you help your corporation in crushing some other.
This is not how it should be done.
You should have to take that expensive, unwieldy ship out, and learn by doing, by risking your ship and your skin to perform actions that will allow you to get better at it. You should not be able to be a master of frigates the first time you fly it. When I first got into a car, I understood basic concepts (drive on the left side, pay attention, stop at the appropriate places, etc.) I knew the ideas, and this is what getting a license to fly the frigate is like. You know the rules, but you lack the experience to be a master. After a few years, I learned. (Of course, I had to get used to driving on the right in America.) Now I think I am a good driver, because I have done it, and I have experience doing it. This is much like weapon skills in many fantasy IP games as well. I learned how to hold a sword, how to swing it, and how not to hit myself with the business end. After some time, I am pretty good fencer too. Learning anything takes practice.
Except in EVE. And that is why I cannot play the game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Except in EVE. And that is why I cannot play the game.
Uf, you didnt really pay Eve did you? What you describe you want is exactly how Eve works, when you have skills capable of flying a frigate it doesnt mean that you actually can fly it well. You are master of nothing at that point just like when you get your drivers licence.
I don't have time to elaborate but that is an absolutely basic concept in EVE and the whole game is built on precisly what you claim to want.
I really disliked Eve's leveling system. Your leveling was linked to real time, not your progression through the PvE content.
Those who play a lot finish the PvE content sooner, whereas casual players will take much longer. On average both types of players will spend about the same amount of time in game to explore the content. Progression (exploration) of PvE content is more a function of time spent in game, not how much time has elapsed in real life.
For the Eve system to work for PvE, the skills either have to be useless so that they make no difference in game, or the content is all instance based to match your skill levels. You may have one person exploring end game content after 3 months while another might take 12 months to reach that content. Both should have a challenging and satisfying experience regardless of how much time has elapsed in real life.
Sorry to hear you didn't like EVE skill progression but you might look at it from different perspective to understand the game concept better.
1) There are no levels, thus there is no leveling. You do not play the game to level your character.
2) There is no content to finish nor there is anything like 'end game'.
EVE Online is all about playing the game. That can be missions, mining, PVP, trading, manufacturing, etc. anything you enjoy and find worthy and fun doing.
Instead of general concept where you need to acquire certain amount of resources, like levels or experience points, to perform certain activity, EVE goes the other way round and allows you to pick an activity you prefer and the skill points, ISK and assets will come along.
I actually liked the way that Eve disguised levels and classes in its ship and skill system. It was a refreshing variation of the on MMO skills, levels and classes that gave a very good illusion of being different experience from other games. It is the one of the things I like when I try a different game.
What I disliked was tying the skill progression to some arbitrary real time schedule.
The other thing I disliked was that in other games, if I wanted some variation, I could create another toon and try a different class. In Eve, you have to wait for your ship skills to train in real time before you can fly a different class of ship, since it only allowed you to train skills on a single avatar.
If you have done the missions, you will know that you can progress through the mission content far more quickly than your skills train up in real time. The more difficult tier missions require a certain level of ship skills and the ability to fly ships that can survive in those missions.
I did do a lot of mining as well as missions. It just takes far too long the train up skills in real time. I subscribed to Eve for about 6 months. Most of the last 2 months consisted of logging in to set skill training while I waited for skills to catch up so that I could move on to some different content. Paying a subscription just to wait for skills to catch up is not my idea of fun or value for money.
I have seen aspects of the Eve skill sytem in traditional fantasy MMO's that worked well. However, the traditional fantasy MMO's did not tie skills to an arbitrary real time schedule and allowed you to progress at your own pace through the content (missions, crafting, classes).
Originally posted by Dubhlaith Remember that many people refer to any type of progression as "levelling." For that matter, EVE does have skills, and those skills do have levels. Many people might call that levelling regardless. That said, I agree with Thorwood in that I strongly dislike EVE's progression system. Very strongly. In fact, I very much enjoy the rest of the game, but that puts me off so much that I will not play it. CCP did a great job with the game, and I am looking forward to their rendition of the World of Darkness, but I cannot abide a system in which your progression is in no way tied to your playing. Even is basic traditional levelling systems, you can only progress if you are actually doing stuff (usually killing things). <snip>
They might refer but they do that incorrectly.
There is no line of starting skill A and ending skill Z you could progress on.
From what I understand you want character advancement rewards for your doings. Fair enough and you are right that is not how EVE works.
EVE in-game doings is rewarded by in-game achievements - gaining ISK, signing up peace treaty, controlling your own system, meeting new friends and making new enemies etc. Your playing does matter far more and is less dependent on your character because unlike leveling games, character development is not the focus of the game.
For the rest of your post, I am not sure I understand it...
Why would I force someone to learn the ropes on something expensive to lose is beyond me. It makes no sense in first place and it hardly finds any back up in driving license example. Do you really want a bus driver to 'learn' how to drive while having a bus full of passengers?
While it might not seem to you but you need player experience to fly any ship well. Your skill points only say how well your ship and fitting will perform. Whether the ship gets blown up in piece is solely up to a pilot.
Comments
So, and this is just tossing out an idea, you could have one soul and six bodies.
Of the six bodies, one might be a tank, another a crafter, another a healer, and yet another might be a DPS and so on.
The single soul could only occupy one body at a time. So even if you had six bodies, you could only play one at a time.
You might have to log out and log back in to occupy another body for example.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
If you would literally rip off exactly what EVE Online is and put it into a fantasy context, that is exactly what you would be doing. But hopefully less generically, like one would be a swordmaster, the other would be polearm elite, another body would be built for thievery, another for fire magic etc.
In EVE, you could be DPS, but you could be dpsing with missiles only or long-range lasers or short ranged projectiles or long-ranged projectiles etc. As a DPS, you could be built more for damage or more for survival etc. With tradnig you can be built for maximum cargo or more for stealth and safety if you are treading dangerous territory.
Things will have to be broken down into very specifics outside the generic healer, tank, and damage.
I am not sure what you are asking here...
Do not take one of the comments above about World of Darkness seriously. Pretty much nothing is known about that project and even hinting it will have the same skill system as EVE is unfounded mouthing.
There is much much more than skill system to be considered. Many mechanics are attached to it.
I am in Perpetuum Online beta, a game that uses a lot of EVE ideas but implement them their own way and I can tell you that there are A LOT of issues with that.
ie. the game uses a skill system based on real-time gaining but...in EVE this works very well because the whole game is heavily zoned and there is no 'twitch' control of your ship, instead you have crap load of mechanics like transversal velocity, ranges, weapon sizes, etc. This suits very well to promote the differences in ships and their weaponry.
That goes in return to skill system where you are allowed to easily specialize in certain a ship and ship size.
Perpetuum uses WASD movement and currently any specialization is meaningless because of twitch based controls disabling deeper combat mechanics EVE use.
So the answer could be: Yes, you can have real-time skill system but it will have nothing to do with EVE Online.
That's a pretty apt description, although you would not have to logout. You'd "simply" change ships and ship equipment (in quotes because there really is no simply in eve e.g. your other ship might be stored in another station an hour away). So for example, you could train up in "dps" (say a cereberus) and "tank" (say a battleship), and the ship you currently use would define your role.
Unless I'm missing something (which is certainly possible), there's very little reason to have more than one character in eve. You can only train one character at once, so you might as well train everything on one character and just swap ships and gear. I guess you might have a good reason to have more characters if you want one ready to go immediately after another had something happen to it (e.g. corporate warfare). That way if one character's ship gets blown up you could immediately launch another character close to the battle with a different (or I guess same) type of ship. But it might not really matter as if you got podded you could just get cloned and go back to battle with spare ships.
Yeah, eve's a complex universe, and more to the OP's point I think it would be fantastic in a planetary setting (does not have to be "fantasy"). The only real beef I have against eve is that all resources and ships are the same with no variation amongst different crafters. Coming from old swg, I'd prefer varying resource qualities and experimentation in crafting.
There's a game named Perpetuum its basically Eve online with Mechs on planets.
if that game works i dont see a reason why a fantasy one can't.
Basically it would be Darkfall with actual choice (a empire space area).
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I like the idea of the six bodys 1 soul, you rebuild your body while your sould slowly gets stronger.
Another simple way for eve's skill system to work is vampires. As we all know older vampires get the stronger they get, you would just have to increase this a bit (or make time go very fast in game) and then you'd have characters advancing over time.
Another idea is some sort of genetic mutation. Your character's dna slowly grows more adaptable over time and you can choose which parts of your dna to actively use in your current body. Though this sounds more like a sci fi game.
Into the breach meatbags
*years*
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Yes, in theory you can do this. But it takes quite a lot of training time to get fully skilled in those roles, so it's better to specialise early on and be good at one or two roles rather than poor in many roles. Sure, eventually you will be great at everything, just as eventually a WoW player wil have a maxed out level 80 alt in every class. (Do most WoW players get their guy to 80 then work on alts, or is it more usual to roll 1 alt of each class and level them evenly?)
The main thing I like about EVE's skill system is that it takes out the skill/level grind and leaves me free to actually play the game. I have seen a lot of people complain that the skill system "plays the game for you", but they're stuck in a mindset where character progression is the game. Or perhaps I should say character sheet progression.
For an EVE player, skills are a tool used to advance his goals, and they're not even necessarily the most important tool (depending on the goal).
Give me liberty or give me lasers
There is a lot CCP could do to make industry more interesting IMO. But I guess they only have so many guys.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You can train all the skills you like, but the skills in and of themselves do nothing. You have to have the module fitted to your ship, and ships only have a limited number of module fitting slots, and a limited amount of powergrid + CPU to share between those modules. EVE is all about opportunity costs. It's pretty much the defining concept of the game.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
if the fantasy game were modeled off of eve's skill system, this theoretical healer/tank/damage dealer would take 4 or so years to create fully. as much time as it would take to, in another game, level up a tank, healer, and mage.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
No because certain skills only benefit certain ships. Like if i train in Blasters and armor tank those skills wouldnt mean jack if i was flying a shield tank missile boat.
Would be the same way in a fantasy version
You could train to be a tank, healer, mage, archer but if your wearing a caster robe your non-mage skills wouldnt really work.
Problem is how would the game stop people from creating gear switch macros and shit. I guess they could make it that you only can change armor sets/items in major Npc camps/cities. that could work.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You are thinking too small here, there is no need for tank, healer and DPS in a MMO. It is just a way to make combat easier but you can do a MMO without that and if you are using Eves system you might as well make the combat system different too.
Guildwars uses a totally different mechanics were the mobs go for the easiest kill and it works fine. You still need a healer there but there are ways around that too, like pots or for that matter no healers or even no magic.
Heroes don't get healed all the times in books, having no heal whatsoever during combat and a fast hp regen after would make a different experience but I don't think it would be boring.
As for people changing armors you can just let it take real time, I actually have a real armor (viking model, simple) it takes a rather long time just to get into or out of a chainmail.
Or you could have a realistic weight system, I promise that no real person would carry around a second armor in their backpack for a full day, just my Chainmail (rather short one, cover upper arms and a bit below the waist) weights 11 kilos and while you can have just that in the backpack the other stuff adds to.
Eves mechanics would work well in a fantasy/historical MMO as long as you add a fun combat system to it. If you just add the old EQ system most MMOs uses still I think it would be rather bad.
With a fun way of splitting up the skills it could actually be really fun. Should you sneak or use a plate armor? Fight from foot or horse? Use a shield, zweihander or a main gauche dagger? If you add primitive guns with realistic properties (looong loading time, will punch through a heavy armor like butter) things would be very interesting.
If you uses Eves system you might as well add at least a little realism (most games have almost zero realism today, just a little will still be fun).
Im just saying skills are attachted to items so someone can't do everything at once. don't read to deep into the roles i was using. was trying to make myself understood to a themepark player.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
A direct port from EVE's game mecahnics -> fantasy wouldn't work, in our predefined ideas of what fantasy games have and don't have.
In EVE, it makes sense that you can't just whip out a sword and full plate mail armour mid-fight, but since so many people play WoW, they've come to expect it, and shun things that don't include it.
Some other things to consider:
-Offline progression vs. in-game progression
Would we have in-game progression? Surely we would, there's no experience like hands-on experience, afterall. So how would it work? Like UO? What about this:
Offline progression = number X.
Online progression and actual combat modifier = X * number Y.
If a person were to, say, study the art of swordsmanship, their swordsmanship X number would increase. If they were to use a sword in combat, ala UO, their actual progression that is made online would increase by X*Y.
So a well learned person can more easily understand the ins and outs of their fighting and learn from it, where as a person going into a sword fight like a mad beserker will learn less (but still, eventually, learn the art, even if in a bastardised fashion).
That is just one example of how the whole offline progression thing could work.
Second.
-Character roles and stuff, switching in combat, etc.
How do we prevent this/keep it to EVE's style of "skills aren't your character, merely the ability to use tools. Your available tools, and how well you use them, is what matters"?
Well, we could take from another incredibly popular game (sigh... from Blizzard, before they were the devil) - Diablo/Diablo II.
They had a system there that I really enjoyed greatly, involving things like strength requirements on items, rather than pure level requirements. At times there were fantastic items for my barbarian, and I needed to increase my intelligence/whatever it was....
But back to the backpack - in this case we would likely make it smaller (perhaps with other options and things for backpacks, like one that has many small grids that can carry more stuff overall, but not big things like armor/swords etc.) - but a two handed sword was 4 units high and one unit wide. A Scythe was 4 units high and 2 units wide. A nice set of armour was 4x2 or 3x2 in some cases - the same with leggings. A player usually couldn't carry -too much- stuff around, and that's the way it should be.
If we were to keep to EVE's style, a person could train their swordsmanship up, and then have a two handed sword equipped. If they also have "channeled magic" trained up, allowing their magic to be more powerful when they have a two handed staff out, well, they're going to have to sacrifice some backpack room for their staff, won't they? And what if the enemy drops something of great importance, now they'll probably have to drop the staff/sword to be able to fit the item into their backpack. Haven't done something like that in a while, have ya?
Just some ideas.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Fantasy is different because of the casters, but you still could do it...
Look at Earthrise, which is currently in development and to be released at the end of the year, if they don't push it back another time.
You can learn all skills in Earthrise and skillpoints are gained by completing quests, crafting items or killing stuff, but you don't gain skillpoints in pistols or rifles, but you have a combat-skillpool and a craftig-skillpool and you're buying skills and skill-levels with your skillpoints.
Additionally you can't use every skill at the same time, but your skills have to match your equipment, and you#re limited to a set of 16 skills at a time.
You can swap your equipment and your skill-template, but you don't want to do this midfight, as it can't be done instantly.
So yes, the possibilities are there, but you need a developer who is willing to do it.
there all a fantasy nothing is real its all whether you fantasize about being in armor with a sword in medieval days or in armor with a ranged weapon in a futuristic setting
eve system could work in fantasy setting easily. it would need personal scale mechanics, but the rest is adaptable.
edit: clarification: a lot of people have preconceptions of what fantasy is. personally, i don't take D&D classes and hit points per level as canon. sword could one-shot just as efficiently as blaster rifle. it can be done, as long as people are willing to accept they are NOT special snowflakes by default, but their player's skills can most certainly make them so.
I really disliked Eve's leveling system. Your leveling was linked to real time, not your progression through the PvE content.
Those who play a lot finish the PvE content sooner, whereas casual players will take much longer. On average both types of players will spend about the same amount of time in game to explore the content. Progression (exploration) of PvE content is more a function of time spent in game, not how much time has elapsed in real life.
For the Eve system to work for PvE, the skills either have to be useless so that they make no difference in game, or the content is all instance based to match your skill levels. You may have one person exploring end game content after 3 months while another might take 12 months to reach that content. Both should have a challenging and satisfying experience regardless of how much time has elapsed in real life.
Sorry to hear you didn't like EVE skill progression but you might look at it from different perspective to understand the game concept better.
1) There are no levels, thus there is no leveling. You do not play the game to level your character.
2) There is no content to finish nor there is anything like 'end game'.
EVE Online is all about playing the game. That can be missions, mining, PVP, trading, manufacturing, etc. anything you enjoy and find worthy and fun doing.
Instead of general concept where you need to acquire certain amount of resources, like levels or experience points, to perform certain activity, EVE goes the other way round and allows you to pick an activity you prefer and the skill points, ISK and assets will come along.
Sorry to hear you didn't like EVE skill progression but you might look at it from different perspective to understand the game concept better.
1) There are no levels, thus there is no leveling. You do not play the game to level your character.
2) There is no content to finish nor there is anything like 'end game'.
EVE Online is all about playing the game. That can be missions, mining, PVP, trading, manufacturing, etc. anything you enjoy and find worthy and fun doing.
Instead of general concept where you need to acquire certain amount of resources, like levels or experience points, to perform certain activity, EVE goes the other way round and allows you to pick an activity you prefer and the skill points, ISK and assets will come along.
Remember that many people refer to any type of progression as "levelling." For that matter, EVE does have skills, and those skills do have levels. Many people might call that levelling regardless. That said, I agree with Thorwood in that I strongly dislike EVE's progression system. Very strongly. In fact, I very much enjoy the rest of the game, but that puts me off so much that I will not play it. CCP did a great job with the game, and I am looking forward to their rendition of the World of Darkness, but I cannot abide a system in which your progression is in no way tied to your playing. Even is basic traditional levelling systems, you can only progress if you are actually doing stuff (usually killing things). In Ryzom (my current shining example of how progression should be done), you can only progress by actually performing the actions to be progressed. There are many specific things to dislike about the system, but in Ryzom, as in EVE, you do not play to grow more powerful, at least, not only for that reason. You play to explore, to socialise, and to experience the world.
With this in mind, I also agree with Thorwood in that progression of PvE content is a function of time spent playing, not time that has passed in the real world. To my mind, the real world has no place in my MMO, for any reason whatever. Also, to my mind, the experience of gradually growing stronger is paramount in importance with regards to my enjoyment of a game. I begin weak, and I take tentative steps into the world, eventually becoming a force to be reckoned with. Of course, with EVE, you do gradually become more powerful by learning things with skill points, but this has no relationship to my playing at all. I have been criticised by EVE players before for complaining that I do not like this system because it takes so much time to become viable or becomes a new player can never catch up with the old ones. Those are both viable arguments, of course, and are ones that I think prevent many people from enjoying the game, but (regardless of my thinking it is elitist of EVE players to say those things), that is not why I do not like it. It is simply, as I have said, the disconnect between my actions and my progression. That lack of connection makes me feel that in many ways my actions in the world have little meaning.
Of course, that is not true in a game world and a game economy so well-conceived as in EVE, but that does not change the way it feels to me. Here is an example of something that can be done in EVE because of this that sits ill with me, and that you could not do if your actions caused your abilities to increase. Say I want to learn how to use some fancy ship class (I forget ship names, so please forgive me.) Let us call it a frigate. The frigate is very powerful, slow, and hard to master. You would not want to take a frigate out before you know how to fly it well because you will get blasted from the sky. Instead you have fun in a smaller, faster, easier craft while your brains downloads skill points for flying the frigate, and any peripheries for doing so. In a month or so you are ready to go. You have everything top notch. Now you take that frigate out for a spin. You are a master of frigates and you help your corporation in crushing some other.
This is not how it should be done.
You should have to take that expensive, unwieldy ship out, and learn by doing, by risking your ship and your skin to perform actions that will allow you to get better at it. You should not be able to be a master of frigates the first time you fly it. When I first got into a car, I understood basic concepts (drive on the left side, pay attention, stop at the appropriate places, etc.) I knew the ideas, and this is what getting a license to fly the frigate is like. You know the rules, but you lack the experience to be a master. After a few years, I learned. (Of course, I had to get used to driving on the right in America.) Now I think I am a good driver, because I have done it, and I have experience doing it. This is much like weapon skills in many fantasy IP games as well. I learned how to hold a sword, how to swing it, and how not to hit myself with the business end. After some time, I am pretty good fencer too. Learning anything takes practice.
Except in EVE. And that is why I cannot play the game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Uf, you didnt really pay Eve did you? What you describe you want is exactly how Eve works, when you have skills capable of flying a frigate it doesnt mean that you actually can fly it well. You are master of nothing at that point just like when you get your drivers licence.
I don't have time to elaborate but that is an absolutely basic concept in EVE and the whole game is built on precisly what you claim to want.
Online progression for Eve is Experience + Social ties + Income.
Offline is skills.
I dont see why a fantasy game couldnt do the same thing.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I actually liked the way that Eve disguised levels and classes in its ship and skill system. It was a refreshing variation of the on MMO skills, levels and classes that gave a very good illusion of being different experience from other games. It is the one of the things I like when I try a different game.
What I disliked was tying the skill progression to some arbitrary real time schedule.
The other thing I disliked was that in other games, if I wanted some variation, I could create another toon and try a different class. In Eve, you have to wait for your ship skills to train in real time before you can fly a different class of ship, since it only allowed you to train skills on a single avatar.
If you have done the missions, you will know that you can progress through the mission content far more quickly than your skills train up in real time. The more difficult tier missions require a certain level of ship skills and the ability to fly ships that can survive in those missions.
I did do a lot of mining as well as missions. It just takes far too long the train up skills in real time. I subscribed to Eve for about 6 months. Most of the last 2 months consisted of logging in to set skill training while I waited for skills to catch up so that I could move on to some different content. Paying a subscription just to wait for skills to catch up is not my idea of fun or value for money.
I have seen aspects of the Eve skill sytem in traditional fantasy MMO's that worked well. However, the traditional fantasy MMO's did not tie skills to an arbitrary real time schedule and allowed you to progress at your own pace through the content (missions, crafting, classes).
They might refer but they do that incorrectly.
There is no line of starting skill A and ending skill Z you could progress on.
From what I understand you want character advancement rewards for your doings. Fair enough and you are right that is not how EVE works.
EVE in-game doings is rewarded by in-game achievements - gaining ISK, signing up peace treaty, controlling your own system, meeting new friends and making new enemies etc.
Your playing does matter far more and is less dependent on your character because unlike leveling games, character development is not the focus of the game.
For the rest of your post, I am not sure I understand it...
Why would I force someone to learn the ropes on something expensive to lose is beyond me. It makes no sense in first place and it hardly finds any back up in driving license example. Do you really want a bus driver to 'learn' how to drive while having a bus full of passengers?
While it might not seem to you but you need player experience to fly any ship well. Your skill points only say how well your ship and fitting will perform. Whether the ship gets blown up in piece is solely up to a pilot.