So, name one good, successful MMO that didn't have a story or lore behind it?
Storyline does not equal Lore. Two different thigns.
Storyline = forced, contrived, linear plotline you must follow. Good for one time through.
Lore = part of setting, reason things in the present are as they are. Very good stuff.
EQ and UO had "lore".
LOTRO and AOC have "storyline."
EQ and UO have storylines too. Kind of a poor example.
No they don't. You speak false.
Uo might have had BACKGROUND stories.
but absolutely no storyLINES.
What the other boys(so happy to be babysitted) don't understand when they say "i like storylines so what?" is that MMO's and storylines are a contradiction in terms.
The answer is if you like pre-cooked storylines, you SHOULD go play offline SOLO games.
Nope, sorry I can't agree with your assertion.
It is more than possible to experience stories in games and still go off and do your own thing. What I would say according to your and the OP's post is that some people just have trouble doing that. That in encountering a story line they feel compelled to be pidgeon holed into that story and can't break out of it.
I don't see that as an issue with the game (necessarily) but with the player.
To the point, Oblivion has a story. Has questlines as well. My apartment mate never finished the main quest line nor was he interested in any of the guild quest lines. He just did the quests that he found from random npc's and went exploring. He essentially did it his own way.
The same can be done for games with more theme park construction. I do it all the time. Did it in wow, lotro, vanguard.
It is NOT possible to do this in those games that have an ending and ending credits. If you go out wandering in Fallout 1 you'll end up doing nothing valuable, because the game's main element IS the story(even tho Fallout had many "sandbox" elements)
Oblivion was a ridiculous game with boring storyline and boring simulative activities. But forget that.
I alreayd answer this in the previous post. In an MMO the point is not story, the point is to reach level-cap. So the player will do it in the fastest way possible. It IS stupid not to do quests(thus the story-line) in a game with quests(thus story-line)
In a MMO quests contain exploration, equipment, experience, lore. They provide these 4 elements in the BEST way possible. They steal content away from the virtuality, the KILL virtuality slowly and cruelly.
I think MMOs with story offers both playstyles for people who WANT a story and also for those who do NOT want one. It's just that those who do not want a story will have to ignore the quest givers and go play the game as they seem fit. Seems fair enough. Both playstyles have choices and can play as they wish.
Conversely, a game with no story essentially precludes players who WANT a story since it isn't an available option. Therefore the potential population is limited to only those that don't want story, leading to a much small population.
So It appears the better solution for the game designers is to provide a story so that more people will be able to play as they want and, in return, increase the playerbase.
To that point, there is a difference between being involved with a quest, imagining one's self in the world, going out and clearing out the wolves or wyverns or space mutants and then returing to the quest giver in triumph over reading the bare essentials of the quest (so 10 wolves, 10 wyverns or 10 space mutants) running to an area while chatting with friends on vent/teamspeak/chat channel blowing through what you have to do and then rinsing and repeating.
It's all in how one approaches the material.
I can appreciate the casual gamer who wants to enjoy a questing game as opposed to going out and chopping wood so that they can craft and become a part of a "living world".
The difference is playing these games like "worlds" and playing them as games. And one appeals to one type of person and one to another.
Very true.
What's interesting is that, as you said in a previous post, you can play any game as a "world", make your own story, drop in and out of the pre-ordained "adventure" and enjoy it - as long as you're that kind of player. If you have the imagination and are inclined to come up with reasons for your character doing things (that staple of RP) then you can make as much fun for yourself in a themepark as you can in a bare-bones persistent world.
I honestly don't know why Rick is so hung up on story, it's possible to ignore the story in even the most themeparky games and just go kill mobs to level, if that's your thing. To be honest, as you said, I think most players really ignore the stories presented to them nowadays anyway. They don't care what the quest is about, they just want to do it, hand it in, get their xp and reward and move on. Not all players are like this, but there's an increasing number that could care less about ANYTHING in a game but getting to the mythical wonderland that is "endgame". They could care less about story.
I'm more the type of wander along player who enjoys creating characters and living in a world, if storylines are a part of that world it's a bonus, gives me something to hang my imaginative hat on. I hate being run around on rails, and I'll quit any game that tries to make me do that (*cough* Aion *cough*). Linear themeparks are anathema to me. I like a big world to roam around in.
I do love the idea of persistent worlds, I'm not against them in any way, I like making my own adventures, but I think there needs to be a bit of realism about how many players feel the same way as the OP, and as strongly as he does about it.
For such a world ..To be sucessful it needs a GREAT community or else it will fail..By failing I do not mean that it has a low population, simply just that the players that inhabit this world does not grasp the meaning of a simulation of a world or the roleplaying of a characther in that said world....
And I'm sorry I havent seen such a community yet..
Not even in Ultima Online, narurally there was acceptions in UO aswell, but for the most part they were just griefers , and thats why they introduced Felucca and Trammel..And don't give me the crap about, ohh they were just playing a psycotic massmurderer crap..because that is just a lie..But as a game it was successful aslong as you managed to ignore the assholes, but in the long run, you simply cant..
But given the right conditions and community it could very well be the best game , but unfortunatly it's all up to the community for such a game to ever become a reality, and such a community doesn't exist..It does exist but not in coexistens on a server where everyone that "pays a subscription" can join..
Furthermore I do not buy the "no quest" thing for it to be a world, for me it's more realistic with some NPC's that gives the world a living breathing feeling/meaning, It can be quests or it can be traders etc etc...Many players are not mature enough to create their own content or stories, and If it's a well made game these NPC's will push you as a player in the right direction..Althou if it's done to much(theme park games)it will also be as bad/boring..
Obviously not everyone likes the same things in games, but I have to support the OP here.
I do not remember ever getting a quest in UO (except maybe escorting NPCs form one place to another). Granted, I only played it the first 1,5 years after release, it may be different nowadays.
Still, I haven't played another MMO since UO that felt as much like a real world as UO did. Players built their Houses/Cities, they crafted, they waged war, Anti-Pkers fought PKers and so on. There were a lot of things going on, and there was much more of a community due to the fact that people weren't mindless quest zombies running from one NPC to the next. That's when stories come to life. They may have not been stories connected to game lore but stories you might tell your friends about events you experienced in the game.
There were a lot of roleplayers on my shard as well. I do especially remember the Orc RPers that lived in the orc fort. The world just felt alive, in a way that I never saw in any themepark MMOs.
I think UO's skill system played quite a big role in making it such a good game. The power difference between a newbie and a veteran player wasn't so enormous that a newbie would have died just like a fly, it was more like lets say a 16 year old average kid against a wrestler. There were quite a lot of abilities and you were learning by doing. Cut down a tree and you get stronger and your Woodcutting skill is rising. Start taming a rabbit and after a while you may tame a horse that you can ride. Or a lot later you might tame that ancient dragon that wreaks havoc for you.
EQ was somewhat like UO when it came to quests. There were really only a small amount of quests in the beginning. I don't remember doing too many quests. Maybe the Epic Weapon Quest and a few in between that yielded good items. I don't think I ever did a quest to get exp.
I never missed quests, others might. Especially those that have never played UO or EQ.
Or maybe it's because I am more of a explorer type? I don't know. But I definately prefer if Quests are rare and not the main activity in the game. (Still those rare quests should really be good!)
The point I want to make is that you need a good community and a game that doesn't make players EXP slaves. When you can log in without the feeling that you need to get exp, thats when you can have fun and stories develop. If those stories are conntected to the lore, written by roleplayers, or just stories of the experiences players have in the world doesn't really matter too much to me. You just get creative when you don't have to follow a premade path.
I really miss this type of game on the current market.
edit: I forgot to mention that in games like UO the fact that you do not have to follow any premade paths people tend to stick to "their" area much more. Especially when you can build houses, place vendors and so on. I think this is a very positive thing and helps to build communities because you can keep in touch with people in that area a lot easier.
I alreayd answer this in the previous post. In an MMO the point(FOR ME) is not story, the point(FOR ME) is to reach level-cap. So the player(ME) will do it in the fastest way possible. It IS stupid (FOR ME) not to do quests(thus the story-line) in a game with quests(thus story-line)
I think MMOs with story offers both playstyles for people who WANT a story and also for those who do NOT want one. It's just that those who do not want a story will have to ignore the quest givers and go play the game as they seem fit. Seems fair enough. Both playstyles have choices and can play as they wish.
Conversely, a game with no story essentially precludes players who WANT a story since it isn't an available option. Therefore the potential population is limited to only those that don't want story, leading to a much small population.
So It appears the better solution for the game designers is to provide a story so that more people will be able to play as they want and, in return, increase the playerbase.
That is completely false. People who don't want to be babysitted with quests, people who want to enjoy the world as a whole, make their own way into it, will ALWAYS be strangled by the fact that first of all it's more CONVENIENT to do quests, and second of all the fact that if you don't do quests, you have NOTHING TO DO, because, as i already said, quests are vampires, they SUCK all the content, they contain lore and equipment, experience and exploration.
Lore because of course they contain stories(which otherwise would be scattered in books and libraries that you woul;d have to travel to to search), equipment because if you dont do them you will never get gear, experience(the saddest ruin) because if you don't do quests you will only be able to farm endlessly, while if there were no quests, they would have to make levelling more varied, interactive, socially entertaining, fun! And finally exploration because a rigid storyline DEMANDS maps to BE scaled in a linear fashion, the first map is 1-5, to second is 6-13, the third is 14-22 (as in levels, ofc).
So you're lying. People who dont want to do quests in a game with quests, will never be able to enjoy the game.
Quests in MMO's simply CRUSH everything that "feels"virtual and persistant in favor of a streamlined, fast, pleasant, accessible and DUMB experience. An experience that is TIGHT heritage of SINGLE PLAYER games. and Blizzard's WoW started this trend because they had no idea what MMO's were supposed to be.
It is more than possible to experience stories in games and still go off and do your own thing. What I would say according to your and the OP's post is that some people just have trouble doing that. That in encountering a story line they feel compelled to be pidgeon holed into that story and can't break out of it.
I don't see that as an issue with the game (necessarily) but with the player.
To the point, Oblivion has a story. Has questlines as well. My apartment mate never finished the main quest line nor was he interested in any of the guild quest lines. He just did the quests that he found from random npc's and went exploring. He essentially did it his own way.
The same can be done for games with more theme park construction. I do it all the time. Did it in wow, lotro, vanguard.
It is NOT possible to do this in those games that have an ending and ending credits. If you go out wandering in Fallout 1 you'll end up doing nothing valuable, because the game's main element IS the story(even tho Fallout had many "sandbox" elements)
Oblivion was a ridiculous game with boring storyline and boring simulative activities. But forget that.
I alreayd answer this in the previous post. In an MMO the point is not story, the point is to reach level-cap. So the player will do it in the fastest way possible. It IS stupid not to do quests(thus the story-line) in a game with quests(thus story-line)
In a MMO quests contain exploration, equipment, experience, lore. They provide these 4 elements in the BEST way possible. They steal content away from the virtuality, the KILL virtuality slowly and cruelly.
Ok, well tell that to my roommate who played Oblivion complteley by doing minor npc stories and exploring. Regardless of your opinion of the game, it is a story based game where a player decided to play it more like an old school mmo.
The problem here is that you can't imagine it because you can't do it. I don't mean that to be an insult or a disparaging remark. Just like there are people who would join an open sandbox and regardless of their intelligence would be lost and couldn't do it.
I can't speak for fallout 1. Fallout 3 seemed more open to exploration but I never finished it as I don't really warm up to sci fi games.
You assert that it's stupid to play a quest game like wow or lotro without doing the stories but again, it's because you can't do it any other way. Yet I have seen role players role play their stories in moria without having the need of a particular quest. As I said earlier, I played through the goblin town finale doing it in my own way.
I have never completed a majority of the main storyline in LOTRO. Yet I have gone out and enjoyed my experience immensely.
You may assert that an mmo "should be x" but not everyone expereinces things the same way and they will most likely respectfully disagree.
I highly doubt Blizzard made their game the way they did because they were ignorant of mmo's. If anything, like any good developer, they did their research and came to the conclusion that camping out an area and grinding wasn't going to do it for many. And there is nothing more true than that. I can't sell the idea of mmo's to anyone I know because in talking about the idea of grinding or spending innordinate amounts of time crafting in game for "fake" money, they just look at me in horror.
I realize that there is a decent population of players who are very devoted to what an mmo meant at its inception but I am more than cognizant of the fact that many times things just evolve from what they intially were into something else.
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When I read threads like this I just can't shake the feeling that people are more upset that games that do cater to their personal gaming preferences are poorly made. While games that don't cater to their personal choices are generally speaking of much higher quality.
From where I stand I don't think there is 1 all mighty definition of what can and cannot be in an mmo. Storylines are fine in some games. That doesn't mean they have to be played offline or solo and is just a silly conclusion if you ask me. There is room for more than 1 flavor of mmo and I'm glad there is variety, because I enjoy most types of games.
You seem to be confusing fact with opinion here. That's often an issue around here in that people present their ideals as fact or what everyone should agree to. That's not the case. If there was only one answer to everything then the world would be an awfully dull place. Suffice to say what you think mmo's should be, an opinion, is not what others want or what they think they should be, a differing opinion. You will never get people to agree with you, especially those that are dead set in their ideals.
My good and ingenuous boys and girls, you don't realize that they are making you play cheap useless single player games, and they call them MMO's so that you WILL GIVE EM MORE MONEY MONTHLY. The monthly fees are only a CLEVER way to steal more dough from you! OPEN your damn eyes!
You kids say "i like it! I like it! yeah !!" just like one would like a pie made of poison.
You simply ignore that you can have something better.
You try to convince yourselves that you like it, but your saying "i like it" is simply you following others
Many persons don't even know WHY they play WoW, they do it simply because magazines TOLD THEM it's good
The exception is world events, preferrably determined by player actions. The opening of the AQ gates in WoW, for example.
The only reasonable story for an MMO, is one that affects all the players. Have an event that can go more than one way. The combined actions of the players determine the outcome for that server. Events like this should take place every six months or so, in order that the world does not stagnate - like WoW's has. Cataclysm will fix that for a while, but six months is a good standard to set.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
From where I stand I don't think there is 1 all mighty definition of what can and cannot be in an mmo. Storylines are fine in some games. That doesn't mean they have to be played offline or solo and is just a silly conclusion if you ask me. There is room for more than 1 flavor of mmo and I'm glad there is variety, because I enjoy most types of games.
This.
To me, variety is a good thing.
Personally, I think a MMO would be great if it had a structure of multiple storylines interacting with you class/race and choices, more random goals and events happening on a quest like AoC is doing now with the RotGS caravan quests, and the option of smart usage of player generated content as you see in Second Life, EQ2 and APB. Plus the usual stuff, ofc. Sort of a mix of sandbox and themepark elements. Well, that's something for the future.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
FFXI, my favorite MMO ever, had tons of story. Of course you weren't forced down a linear path to do it, but still. Without that story, my immersion the world would have been much less. Matter of fact, every MMO I have played that didn't have a story, I never touched again. That basically eliminates 95% of FTPs right there.
Not to interrupt such fun and jollification, but I have attention problems. Nothing that makes me do anything crazy or weird. I just tend to get bored of doing the same things over and over again. I cannot play a game that doesn't give enough freedom, nor can I play one that gives me nothing to work for. I have to play games that offer both of those things, usually in the form of running round crafting, both for myself and because quests ask for it. I play multiplayer online games so I can talk or stay quiet as I wish.
End game isn't an issue for me, in all likelyhood, I will get bored and delete before getting anywhere near it. I don't see having quests or not having them as an advantage or disadvantage, more as the games are a choose your own adventure book. I can do one thing or another depending on my mood and frame of mind.
I alreayd answer this in the previous post. In an MMO the point(FOR ME) is not story, the point(FOR ME) is to reach level-cap. So the player(ME) will do it in the fastest way possible. It IS stupid (FOR ME) not to do quests(thus the story-line) in a game with quests(thus story-line)
Fixed it for you. Me, I play games for fun.
Nono you don't understand, there's no such a thing as FOR ME.
Your way of playing with quests that guide you from A to Z isn't even supposed to exist in a world that's seamless, that's persistant, that's a living cosmos, that's a breathing environment. It's a contradiction.
There CAN be a MMo that miraculously combines the two things(i would be able to make it), but chances are such a thing will never exist.
Current MMO's offer storylines, and in such(fake, wrongly called) MMO's players play them as if they're playing a single player RPGs with chat rooms. And when they're done, they abandon it. And that's why every single MMO except WoW is causing losses and layoffs to the companies.
BELIEVE ME, if companies made a decent storyless MMO with great PvP mechanics, you WOULD love it, you would suddenly realize HOW MUCH you were SCAMMED
Now, THERE is a reasonable, non-straw man OP title. Quite the improvement.
That said, I disagree. I don't think stories detract from an MMO experience, unless they're lame, convoluted, crappy stories. I love the LotRO Book quests. The only thing I don't like about them is that it may be months before you get all the way through them, so various subplots and characters and their significance may get forgotten as the story progresses.
On the other hand, I don't think MMO's NEED them, either.
FFXI, my favorite MMO ever, had tons of story. Of course you weren't forced down a linear path to do it, but still. Without that story, my immersion the world would have been much less. Matter of fact, every MMO I have played that didn't have a story, I never touched again. That basically eliminates 95% of FTPs right there.
Stories are good!!! I think even EVE has them.
Story-LINES are bad because they guide you in and out of the game.
Stories can be non-linear in a MMO, if they don't steal all the content. But quests in the current MMO's DO steal every content and force the game into ONE streamlined and OBLIGATED experience.
And this is BAD and it's not just an opinion because an MMO is supposed to be a dynamic world where "events" are global.
My good and ingenuous boys and girls, you don't realize that they are making you play cheap useless single player games, and they call them MMO's so that you WILL GIVE EM MORE MONEY MONTHLY. The monthly fees are only a CLEVER way to steal more dough from you! OPEN your damn eyes!
You kids say "i like it! I like it! yeah !!" just like one would like a pie made of poison.
You simply ignore that you can have something better.
You try to convince yourselves that you like it, but your saying "i like it" is simply you following others
Many persons don't even know WHY they play WoW, they do it simply because magazines TOLD THEM it's good
It's a grandiose lobotomy.
kids? lobotomized? i'm not old but I'm 43. By any definition I would be considered intelligent. Not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but not a dullard. I'm well read, play several instruments, write, compose music, listen to 12 tone and aleatoric music on one end of the spectrum and classic rock, folk, country, blue grass, pop, blues Jazz on the other end. I am going to a modern dance performance tonight and seeing Iron Man 2 tomorrow. All that meaning and to my point, that i have a wide and varied set of interests. I can make my own decisions and I can do it in an educated manner.
I know what I'm about. I can make my own destiny and choose not to accept societal norms if they don't fit my needs.
I enjoy all types of games and can pick my games according to my mood and free time. You may assert that we fall under this definition of yours but in the end people like me can make our own decisions and will.
For as much as you claim that mmos' should be about freedom I don't really see much in your posts that support that freedom. just what you think is freedom.
It's very clear that we just don't see things the same way and I'm sure that both of us are equally comfortable with our positions.
In the end I will still play these games in a manner fitting with what I consider enjoyable. Even if it is stupid for me not to follow the quests when I dont' want. I'm sure others will too. And I'm sure players who share your point of view will go and find a sandbox game to fulfill your needs.
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I have the most perfect game for people here who think MMOs shouldn't have storylines and it should only belong to single player games. It is called Real Life...it is sandbox, you do whatever you please, hey, it is everything you want in an mmo, including some dudes playing as chicks!
You seem to be confusing fact with opinion here. That's often an issue around here in that people present their ideals as fact or what everyone should agree to. That's not the case. If there was only one answer to everything then the world would be an awfully dull place. Suffice to say what you think mmo's should be, an opinion, is not what others want or what they think they should be, a differing opinion. You will never get people to agree with you, especially those that are dead set in their ideals.
Opinions are fine, i like opinions.
But in this world, thank God, there's right and wrong, someone has to be right, someone has to be wrong. No escape from this. Usually History reveals that...
FFXI, my favorite MMO ever, had tons of story. Of course you weren't forced down a linear path to do it, but still. Without that story, my immersion the world would have been much less. Matter of fact, every MMO I have played that didn't have a story, I never touched again. That basically eliminates 95% of FTPs right there.
Stories are good!!! I think even EVE has them.
Story-LINES are bad because they guide you in and out of the game.
Storylines do not guide you. They tell you a story in much richer form than any other. The story that developers want you to experience.
And before you start talking about "forcing", yes, I want to play games that developers make for me. I want to see their vision, the story they want to tell. That is why I play games. You can tell me you do prefer to make your own story, but that is not "the right" way. Neither is mine, but I am happy with my choice. I do not want to write my own books, or make my own movies, or make my own games, because there are people out there that are seriously Talented and it's amazing what kind of stories they can make for me. I am just glad such people exist in this world.
99% of the time, those stories are much better and complex than anything you could ever make up yourself. They are made by someone else, but that is hardly the point of the stories in the first place.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
My good and ingenuous boys and girls, you don't realize that they are making you play cheap useless single player games, and they call them MMO's so that you WILL GIVE EM MORE MONEY MONTHLY. The monthly fees are only a CLEVER way to steal more dough from you! OPEN your damn eyes!
You kids say "i like it! I like it! yeah !!" just like one would like a pie made of poison.
You simply ignore that you can have something better.
You try to convince yourselves that you like it, but your saying "i like it" is simply you following others
Many persons don't even know WHY they play WoW, they do it simply because magazines TOLD THEM it's good
It's a grandiose lobotomy.
kids? lobotomized? i'm not old but I'm 43. By any definition I would be considered intelligent. Not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but not a dullard. I'm well read, play several instruments, write, compose music, listen to 12 tone and aleatoric music on one end of the spectrum and classic rock, folk, country, blue grass, pop, blues Jazz on the other end. I am going to a modern dance performance tonight and seeing Iron Man 2 tomorrow. All that meaning and to my point, that i have a wide and varied set of interests. I can make my own decisions and I can do it in an educated manner.
I know what I'm about. I can make my own destiny and choose not to accept societal norms if they don't fit my needs.
I enjoy all types of games and can pick my games according to my mood and free time. You may assert that we fall under this definition of yours but in the end people like me can make our own decisions and will.
For as much as you claim that mmos' should be about freedom I don't really see much in your posts that support that freedom. just what you think is freedom.
It's very clear that we just don't see things the same way and I'm sure that both of us are equally comfortable with our positions.
In the end I will still play these games in a manner fitting with what I consider enjoyable. Even if it is stupid for me not to follow the quests when I dont' want. I'm sure others will too. And I'm sure players who share your point of view will go and find a sandbox game to fulfill your needs.
You might be intelligent in many things, my man, on music and instruments and such uuuuh sounds and noises related matters, but regarding MMO's i must presume you're not the brightest pup.
So if my enjoyment of fun differs from yours, I'm wrong or stupid?
Because you like the color green, and I like purple, I am out of my mind?
You can't argue what I, you, or someone else likes is WRONG.
I didn't play wow because some magazine said it was good. I didn't try out guild wars because friends said it was the best game ever, and preach that to everyone I know. I did not come onto these boards to scream that mmos that you like are the "good, correct, best" mmos, while any others you don't like are terrible.
I went out and tried the games. And I try a lot of games. I stick with what I enjoy.
For me, WoW was a social game. I loved talking to friends I met online and knew for the past 6 years. I still do.
But wait! What I just said must be a lie! Oh noes!
Comments
It is NOT possible to do this in those games that have an ending and ending credits. If you go out wandering in Fallout 1 you'll end up doing nothing valuable, because the game's main element IS the story(even tho Fallout had many "sandbox" elements)
Oblivion was a ridiculous game with boring storyline and boring simulative activities. But forget that.
I alreayd answer this in the previous post. In an MMO the point is not story, the point is to reach level-cap. So the player will do it in the fastest way possible. It IS stupid not to do quests(thus the story-line) in a game with quests(thus story-line)
In a MMO quests contain exploration, equipment, experience, lore. They provide these 4 elements in the BEST way possible. They steal content away from the virtuality, the KILL virtuality slowly and cruelly.
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I think MMOs with story offers both playstyles for people who WANT a story and also for those who do NOT want one. It's just that those who do not want a story will have to ignore the quest givers and go play the game as they seem fit. Seems fair enough. Both playstyles have choices and can play as they wish.
Conversely, a game with no story essentially precludes players who WANT a story since it isn't an available option. Therefore the potential population is limited to only those that don't want story, leading to a much small population.
So It appears the better solution for the game designers is to provide a story so that more people will be able to play as they want and, in return, increase the playerbase.
Very true.
What's interesting is that, as you said in a previous post, you can play any game as a "world", make your own story, drop in and out of the pre-ordained "adventure" and enjoy it - as long as you're that kind of player. If you have the imagination and are inclined to come up with reasons for your character doing things (that staple of RP) then you can make as much fun for yourself in a themepark as you can in a bare-bones persistent world.
I honestly don't know why Rick is so hung up on story, it's possible to ignore the story in even the most themeparky games and just go kill mobs to level, if that's your thing. To be honest, as you said, I think most players really ignore the stories presented to them nowadays anyway. They don't care what the quest is about, they just want to do it, hand it in, get their xp and reward and move on. Not all players are like this, but there's an increasing number that could care less about ANYTHING in a game but getting to the mythical wonderland that is "endgame". They could care less about story.
I'm more the type of wander along player who enjoys creating characters and living in a world, if storylines are a part of that world it's a bonus, gives me something to hang my imaginative hat on. I hate being run around on rails, and I'll quit any game that tries to make me do that (*cough* Aion *cough*). Linear themeparks are anathema to me. I like a big world to roam around in.
I do love the idea of persistent worlds, I'm not against them in any way, I like making my own adventures, but I think there needs to be a bit of realism about how many players feel the same way as the OP, and as strongly as he does about it.
For such a world ..To be sucessful it needs a GREAT community or else it will fail..By failing I do not mean that it has a low population, simply just that the players that inhabit this world does not grasp the meaning of a simulation of a world or the roleplaying of a characther in that said world....
And I'm sorry I havent seen such a community yet..
Not even in Ultima Online, narurally there was acceptions in UO aswell, but for the most part they were just griefers , and thats why they introduced Felucca and Trammel..And don't give me the crap about, ohh they were just playing a psycotic massmurderer crap..because that is just a lie..But as a game it was successful aslong as you managed to ignore the assholes, but in the long run, you simply cant..
But given the right conditions and community it could very well be the best game , but unfortunatly it's all up to the community for such a game to ever become a reality, and such a community doesn't exist..It does exist but not in coexistens on a server where everyone that "pays a subscription" can join..
Furthermore I do not buy the "no quest" thing for it to be a world, for me it's more realistic with some NPC's that gives the world a living breathing feeling/meaning, It can be quests or it can be traders etc etc...Many players are not mature enough to create their own content or stories, and If it's a well made game these NPC's will push you as a player in the right direction..Althou if it's done to much(theme park games)it will also be as bad/boring..
Obviously not everyone likes the same things in games, but I have to support the OP here.
I do not remember ever getting a quest in UO (except maybe escorting NPCs form one place to another). Granted, I only played it the first 1,5 years after release, it may be different nowadays.
Still, I haven't played another MMO since UO that felt as much like a real world as UO did. Players built their Houses/Cities, they crafted, they waged war, Anti-Pkers fought PKers and so on. There were a lot of things going on, and there was much more of a community due to the fact that people weren't mindless quest zombies running from one NPC to the next. That's when stories come to life. They may have not been stories connected to game lore but stories you might tell your friends about events you experienced in the game.
There were a lot of roleplayers on my shard as well. I do especially remember the Orc RPers that lived in the orc fort. The world just felt alive, in a way that I never saw in any themepark MMOs.
I think UO's skill system played quite a big role in making it such a good game. The power difference between a newbie and a veteran player wasn't so enormous that a newbie would have died just like a fly, it was more like lets say a 16 year old average kid against a wrestler. There were quite a lot of abilities and you were learning by doing. Cut down a tree and you get stronger and your Woodcutting skill is rising. Start taming a rabbit and after a while you may tame a horse that you can ride. Or a lot later you might tame that ancient dragon that wreaks havoc for you.
EQ was somewhat like UO when it came to quests. There were really only a small amount of quests in the beginning. I don't remember doing too many quests. Maybe the Epic Weapon Quest and a few in between that yielded good items. I don't think I ever did a quest to get exp.
I never missed quests, others might. Especially those that have never played UO or EQ.
Or maybe it's because I am more of a explorer type? I don't know. But I definately prefer if Quests are rare and not the main activity in the game. (Still those rare quests should really be good!)
The point I want to make is that you need a good community and a game that doesn't make players EXP slaves. When you can log in without the feeling that you need to get exp, thats when you can have fun and stories develop. If those stories are conntected to the lore, written by roleplayers, or just stories of the experiences players have in the world doesn't really matter too much to me. You just get creative when you don't have to follow a premade path.
I really miss this type of game on the current market.
edit: I forgot to mention that in games like UO the fact that you do not have to follow any premade paths people tend to stick to "their" area much more. Especially when you can build houses, place vendors and so on. I think this is a very positive thing and helps to build communities because you can keep in touch with people in that area a lot easier.
Fixed it for you. Me, I play games for fun.
That is completely false. People who don't want to be babysitted with quests, people who want to enjoy the world as a whole, make their own way into it, will ALWAYS be strangled by the fact that first of all it's more CONVENIENT to do quests, and second of all the fact that if you don't do quests, you have NOTHING TO DO, because, as i already said, quests are vampires, they SUCK all the content, they contain lore and equipment, experience and exploration.
Lore because of course they contain stories(which otherwise would be scattered in books and libraries that you woul;d have to travel to to search), equipment because if you dont do them you will never get gear, experience(the saddest ruin) because if you don't do quests you will only be able to farm endlessly, while if there were no quests, they would have to make levelling more varied, interactive, socially entertaining, fun! And finally exploration because a rigid storyline DEMANDS maps to BE scaled in a linear fashion, the first map is 1-5, to second is 6-13, the third is 14-22 (as in levels, ofc).
So you're lying. People who dont want to do quests in a game with quests, will never be able to enjoy the game.
Quests in MMO's simply CRUSH everything that "feels"virtual and persistant in favor of a streamlined, fast, pleasant, accessible and DUMB experience. An experience that is TIGHT heritage of SINGLE PLAYER games. and Blizzard's WoW started this trend because they had no idea what MMO's were supposed to be.
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Ok, well tell that to my roommate who played Oblivion complteley by doing minor npc stories and exploring. Regardless of your opinion of the game, it is a story based game where a player decided to play it more like an old school mmo.
The problem here is that you can't imagine it because you can't do it. I don't mean that to be an insult or a disparaging remark. Just like there are people who would join an open sandbox and regardless of their intelligence would be lost and couldn't do it.
I can't speak for fallout 1. Fallout 3 seemed more open to exploration but I never finished it as I don't really warm up to sci fi games.
You assert that it's stupid to play a quest game like wow or lotro without doing the stories but again, it's because you can't do it any other way. Yet I have seen role players role play their stories in moria without having the need of a particular quest. As I said earlier, I played through the goblin town finale doing it in my own way.
I have never completed a majority of the main storyline in LOTRO. Yet I have gone out and enjoyed my experience immensely.
You may assert that an mmo "should be x" but not everyone expereinces things the same way and they will most likely respectfully disagree.
I highly doubt Blizzard made their game the way they did because they were ignorant of mmo's. If anything, like any good developer, they did their research and came to the conclusion that camping out an area and grinding wasn't going to do it for many. And there is nothing more true than that. I can't sell the idea of mmo's to anyone I know because in talking about the idea of grinding or spending innordinate amounts of time crafting in game for "fake" money, they just look at me in horror.
I realize that there is a decent population of players who are very devoted to what an mmo meant at its inception but I am more than cognizant of the fact that many times things just evolve from what they intially were into something else.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
When I read threads like this I just can't shake the feeling that people are more upset that games that do cater to their personal gaming preferences are poorly made. While games that don't cater to their personal choices are generally speaking of much higher quality.
From where I stand I don't think there is 1 all mighty definition of what can and cannot be in an mmo. Storylines are fine in some games. That doesn't mean they have to be played offline or solo and is just a silly conclusion if you ask me. There is room for more than 1 flavor of mmo and I'm glad there is variety, because I enjoy most types of games.
You seem to be confusing fact with opinion here. That's often an issue around here in that people present their ideals as fact or what everyone should agree to. That's not the case. If there was only one answer to everything then the world would be an awfully dull place. Suffice to say what you think mmo's should be, an opinion, is not what others want or what they think they should be, a differing opinion. You will never get people to agree with you, especially those that are dead set in their ideals.
My good and ingenuous boys and girls, you don't realize that they are making you play cheap useless single player games, and they call them MMO's so that you WILL GIVE EM MORE MONEY MONTHLY. The monthly fees are only a CLEVER way to steal more dough from you! OPEN your damn eyes!
You kids say "i like it! I like it! yeah !!" just like one would like a pie made of poison.
You simply ignore that you can have something better.
You try to convince yourselves that you like it, but your saying "i like it" is simply you following others
Many persons don't even know WHY they play WoW, they do it simply because magazines TOLD THEM it's good
It's a grandiose lobotomy.
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Stories are for single player games.
The exception is world events, preferrably determined by player actions. The opening of the AQ gates in WoW, for example.
The only reasonable story for an MMO, is one that affects all the players. Have an event that can go more than one way. The combined actions of the players determine the outcome for that server. Events like this should take place every six months or so, in order that the world does not stagnate - like WoW's has. Cataclysm will fix that for a while, but six months is a good standard to set.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This.
To me, variety is a good thing.
Personally, I think a MMO would be great if it had a structure of multiple storylines interacting with you class/race and choices, more random goals and events happening on a quest like AoC is doing now with the RotGS caravan quests, and the option of smart usage of player generated content as you see in Second Life, EQ2 and APB. Plus the usual stuff, ofc. Sort of a mix of sandbox and themepark elements. Well, that's something for the future.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
FFXI, my favorite MMO ever, had tons of story. Of course you weren't forced down a linear path to do it, but still. Without that story, my immersion the world would have been much less. Matter of fact, every MMO I have played that didn't have a story, I never touched again. That basically eliminates 95% of FTPs right there.
Not to interrupt such fun and jollification, but I have attention problems. Nothing that makes me do anything crazy or weird. I just tend to get bored of doing the same things over and over again. I cannot play a game that doesn't give enough freedom, nor can I play one that gives me nothing to work for. I have to play games that offer both of those things, usually in the form of running round crafting, both for myself and because quests ask for it. I play multiplayer online games so I can talk or stay quiet as I wish.
End game isn't an issue for me, in all likelyhood, I will get bored and delete before getting anywhere near it. I don't see having quests or not having them as an advantage or disadvantage, more as the games are a choose your own adventure book. I can do one thing or another depending on my mood and frame of mind.
Nono you don't understand, there's no such a thing as FOR ME.
Your way of playing with quests that guide you from A to Z isn't even supposed to exist in a world that's seamless, that's persistant, that's a living cosmos, that's a breathing environment. It's a contradiction.
There CAN be a MMo that miraculously combines the two things(i would be able to make it), but chances are such a thing will never exist.
Current MMO's offer storylines, and in such(fake, wrongly called) MMO's players play them as if they're playing a single player RPGs with chat rooms. And when they're done, they abandon it. And that's why every single MMO except WoW is causing losses and layoffs to the companies.
BELIEVE ME, if companies made a decent storyless MMO with great PvP mechanics, you WOULD love it, you would suddenly realize HOW MUCH you were SCAMMED
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Now, THERE is a reasonable, non-straw man OP title. Quite the improvement.
That said, I disagree. I don't think stories detract from an MMO experience, unless they're lame, convoluted, crappy stories. I love the LotRO Book quests. The only thing I don't like about them is that it may be months before you get all the way through them, so various subplots and characters and their significance may get forgotten as the story progresses.
On the other hand, I don't think MMO's NEED them, either.
Stories are good!!! I think even EVE has them.
Story-LINES are bad because they guide you in and out of the game.
Stories can be non-linear in a MMO, if they don't steal all the content. But quests in the current MMO's DO steal every content and force the game into ONE streamlined and OBLIGATED experience.
And this is BAD and it's not just an opinion because an MMO is supposed to be a dynamic world where "events" are global.
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kids? lobotomized? i'm not old but I'm 43. By any definition I would be considered intelligent. Not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but not a dullard. I'm well read, play several instruments, write, compose music, listen to 12 tone and aleatoric music on one end of the spectrum and classic rock, folk, country, blue grass, pop, blues Jazz on the other end. I am going to a modern dance performance tonight and seeing Iron Man 2 tomorrow. All that meaning and to my point, that i have a wide and varied set of interests. I can make my own decisions and I can do it in an educated manner.
I know what I'm about. I can make my own destiny and choose not to accept societal norms if they don't fit my needs.
I enjoy all types of games and can pick my games according to my mood and free time. You may assert that we fall under this definition of yours but in the end people like me can make our own decisions and will.
For as much as you claim that mmos' should be about freedom I don't really see much in your posts that support that freedom. just what you think is freedom.
It's very clear that we just don't see things the same way and I'm sure that both of us are equally comfortable with our positions.
In the end I will still play these games in a manner fitting with what I consider enjoyable. Even if it is stupid for me not to follow the quests when I dont' want. I'm sure others will too. And I'm sure players who share your point of view will go and find a sandbox game to fulfill your needs.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I have the most perfect game for people here who think MMOs shouldn't have storylines and it should only belong to single player games. It is called Real Life...it is sandbox, you do whatever you please, hey, it is everything you want in an mmo, including some dudes playing as chicks!
lmao.
So what game is it we should be playing that fit with the OP's idea of a decent mmo?
Opinions are fine, i like opinions.
But in this world, thank God, there's right and wrong, someone has to be right, someone has to be wrong. No escape from this. Usually History reveals that...
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Storylines do not guide you. They tell you a story in much richer form than any other. The story that developers want you to experience.
And before you start talking about "forcing", yes, I want to play games that developers make for me. I want to see their vision, the story they want to tell. That is why I play games. You can tell me you do prefer to make your own story, but that is not "the right" way. Neither is mine, but I am happy with my choice. I do not want to write my own books, or make my own movies, or make my own games, because there are people out there that are seriously Talented and it's amazing what kind of stories they can make for me. I am just glad such people exist in this world.
99% of the time, those stories are much better and complex than anything you could ever make up yourself. They are made by someone else, but that is hardly the point of the stories in the first place.
You might be intelligent in many things, my man, on music and instruments and such uuuuh sounds and noises related matters, but regarding MMO's i must presume you're not the brightest pup.
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So if my enjoyment of fun differs from yours, I'm wrong or stupid?
Because you like the color green, and I like purple, I am out of my mind?
You can't argue what I, you, or someone else likes is WRONG.
I didn't play wow because some magazine said it was good. I didn't try out guild wars because friends said it was the best game ever, and preach that to everyone I know. I did not come onto these boards to scream that mmos that you like are the "good, correct, best" mmos, while any others you don't like are terrible.
I went out and tried the games. And I try a lot of games. I stick with what I enjoy.
For me, WoW was a social game. I loved talking to friends I met online and knew for the past 6 years. I still do.
But wait! What I just said must be a lie! Oh noes!