You might be intelligent in many things, my man, on music and instruments and such uuuuh sounds and noises related matters, but regarding MMO's i must presume you're not the brightest pup.
I think i'll take that chance.
It's like plato's philospher kings all over again. One group that essentialy decided that they knew more than anyone else and it would be better that they were the leaders because of their education and that others would thank them for it.
On my way out but to add, I get that there is a disenfranchised group of players who are unhappy with the way things are going. But they tend to conveniently forget that in the course of progress things change and there is always a group that thinks things change for the worse and are getting dumbed down.
Happened in music (counterpoint to stile gallant or rock and roll: do you think people were sitting around saying "oh, someone finally gets it, we've been listening to boring music all this time") happened in films with the addition of sound.
And it's happening in games. for my part I really feel for players who feel they are being left behind. That is the truth. But in the end one nees to either adapt or move on. Or just wait. Things usually come 'round again.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
lol I still want to know which game it is that's so amazing
Apparenlty it's UO. At least thats the primay example given of what a "good" MMO is and everything else is just mindless lobotomized garbage.
It is the way these people work. They are right, we are wrong. We don't know anything about what we talk about...this thread was and is turning into a bigger whine fest of name calling and putting down people.
If you are the type of player who just has to follow some linear plotline, with breadcrumb trails laid out before you, then MMO's are the wrong type of game for you.
....
See, I'm gonna tell you what you did wrong right here. There's nothing wrong with liking whatever you like in an MMO, but you can't make a blanket statement that if others dont like it, they don't belong in MMOs.
You don't get to decide what is right or wrong for an MMO. This is why there are different kinds of MMOs. As you said yourself, EQ is not LOTRO. Neither of those is EVE. We all have different tastes for our MMOs and you were not elected spokesman for all of us.
Variety, people, variety. How many times does it have to be said? Variety is good.
It's good with food, music, movies, and tv shows, so I don't see why variety suddenly wouldn't be good for MMO's and they all should be the same stuff. Large groups of people have different taste from eachother, however hard that is to understand for some people that others may not like the things they do.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
So if my enjoyment of fun differs from yours, I'm wrong or stupid?
Because you like the color green, and I like purple, I am out of my mind?
You can't argue what I, you, or someone else likes is WRONG.
I didn't play wow because some magazine said it was good. I didn't try out guild wars because friends said it was the best game ever, and preach that to everyone I know. I did not come onto these boards to scream that mmos that you like are the "good, correct, best" mmos, while any others you don't like are terrible.
I went out and tried the games. And I try a lot of games. I stick with what I enjoy.
For me, WoW was a social game. I loved talking to friends I met online and knew for the past 6 years. I still do.
But wait! What I just said must be a lie! Oh noes!
No, but when you and others on these boards say that an MMO needs to be like a linear single player RPG offline experience whose subscribers are gullible enough to pay a subscription for, then I think you are objectively wrong.
MMO's were meant to be worlds, indeed were worlds before devs turned them into dumbed down games in order to attract the non-gaming crowd. I'm just saying devs have underestimated the player base. Folks are smarter and can accept more challenge than what these devs and their business managers realize. In fact, I think a lot of devs know this (and protest to no avail), but business management steers them down a path many do not want to follow.
You know, if we were given the right world and the right tools, I think this sort of thing could work pretty well. I have seen what players can create in NWN (did some myself), and it can be very good.
Make a world sprinkled with caves, settlement locations, towers, ruins, etc. Let each player pick a spot for their own, and do something like dungeon maker there. Let guilds claim larger areas to design and build. Guild vault would have to be located within that area. The guild would be responsible for protecting it.
I think player content could do a lot for the genre.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You know, if we were given the right world and the right tools, I think this sort of thing could work pretty well. I have seen what players can create in NWN (did some myself), and it can be very good.
Make a world sprinkled with caves, settlement locations, towers, ruins, etc. Let each player pick a spot for their own, and do something like dungeon maker there. Let guilds claim larger areas to design and build. Guild vault would have to be located within that area. The guild would be responsible for protecting it.
I think player content could do a lot for the genre.
Everything works pretty well in a Utopia.
Just saying that theory and practice usually don't mix together well.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
So, name one good, successful MMO that didn't have a story or lore behind it?
Storyline does not equal Lore. Two different thigns.
Storyline = forced, contrived, linear plotline you must follow. Good for one time through.
Lore = part of setting, reason things in the present are as they are. Very good stuff.
EQ and UO had "lore".
LOTRO and AOC have "storyline."
EQ and UO have storylines too. Kind of a poor example.
Storylines the world NPC's might be following, sure, but not linear cutscene-filled rails the players must follow. Quite different.
EQ felt way different than LOTRO. Every time I logged into EQ, I was logging into a world. Every time I logged into LOTRO, I logged into a chapter.
Well I guess it's a good thing there is not a single MMO on teh market that gives linear cutscene-filled rails that the players must follow.
Everything I did in EQ I can do in WoW, CoH, Fallen Earth, Istaria. Every single one of them give me tons of options.
And again Lore and storylines are the same thing. A story is a narrative of something that happened or is happeneing or will happen. Lore is a narrative of something that happened.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think the problem here isn't the actual presence of a story... every MMO has a story to some extent. The actual problem is the way in which the story is told. Recent releases seem to be obsessing over the idea that every player has to have a personalised, instanced story that only involves their character as the 'hero'. This is a massive immersion killer when you realise that every other damn player in the game is also the sole 'hero' of exactly the same story. There's no sense of world or community to the storyline because as far as the story is concerned your character is the only one that matters.
A proper MMO story should be told through community-wide developments and events. It's simply more epic and it makes you as a player feel like you have a genuine contribution to make to the progress of a story that everyone is able to witness.
This is also the reason why devs these days are stuck in a situation where players have little to no impact on the world... because everyone has their own instanced storyline and everyone can be at different stages in the story. What the genre needs is a progressive server-wide storyline that moves in real time through the actions of the server community as a whole. Ironically WoW's cataclysm event is going to be the best example of this to use for modern audiences... I'm not suggesting games need something on cataclysm's scale but something of a similar nature on a regular basis that is influenced by player actions. That's a real MMO storyline.
And again Lore and storylines are the same thing. A story is a narrative of something that happened or is happeneing or will happen. Lore is a narrative of something that happened.
Venge Sunsoar
What is this nonsense? Storyline is an *active* story you take part in, lore is the background where everything takes place. They definitely compliment each other, but they're not even near the same thing.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
A proper MMO story should be told through community-wide developments and events. It's simply more epic and it makes you as a player feel like you have a genuine contribution to make to the progress of a story that everyone is able to witness.
This is also the reason why devs these days are stuck in a situation where players have little to no impact on the world... because everyone has their own instanced storyline and everyone can be at different stages in the story. What the genre needs is a progressive server-wide storyline that moves in real time through the actions of the server community as a whole. Ironically WoW's cataclysm event is going to be the best example of this to use for modern audiences... I'm not suggesting games need something on cataclysm's scale but something of a similar nature on a regular basis that is influenced by player actions. That's a real MMO storyline.
Hell yes. A server-wide effort to make a real change to that server.
Players would be all over that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Storyline is not an active story that you take part in. Books have storyline, movies have storyline. I'm not taking part in it just following it.
Lore is a background. It is a story of something that took place before. Because it is a story than it has a storyline, a beginning, a plot, a climac a conclusion. That is a storyline.
Everything that has a begining, and a plot has a storyline. Lore has this.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Storyline is not an active story that you take part in. Books have storyline, movies have storyline. I'm not taking part in it just following it.
Lore is a background. It is a story of something that took place before. Before it is a story than it has a storyline, a beginning, a plot, a climac a conclusion. That is a storyline.
You Do take part in book's storyline, as an observer.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
And again Lore and storylines are the same thing. A story is a narrative of something that happened or is happeneing or will happen. Lore is a narrative of something that happened.
Venge Sunsoar
What is this nonsense? Storyline is an *active* story you take part in, lore is the background where everything takes place. They definitely compliment each other, but they're not even near the same thing.
The problem is that the story never moves...it has to stay static because it caters to tons of players and needs some sort of foundation. Everyone's killed 10 wolves...it's never going to remove the wolf population. Similarly a ton of people killed Illidan and Arthas...yet they stay alive so that others can kill them
IMO the storyline should be player created. Make a sprawling game world filled with environments, variety, and tons of hidden things. Make a capital city in the center. Let players pick their race, no classes though. The Capital city is a "safe" zone, so to speak, but while your safe there, you can't do anything there either, encouraging players to get out. All towns then would be player created. You'd have to cut down the materials and build your own house, or town. Guild's could take over other towns, and set prices, etc. You could even take over enough territory to establish a country, and a border.
The game could record how much monsters etc. die, and sometimes players could actually eliminate monsters from an area in this way. However, the game would also have marauding boss creatures or packs of monsters that might destroy towns. This way you have unique bosses and group activity. Players could generate their own quests by making requests for X reward and posting them on a bulletin board esque system.
In this kind of game, the players make the storyline, and the storyline constantly evolves. This how a true virtual world should work.
When I read lord of the rings I am witnessing the events the same way I am when I read a history book. The events are being lived or re-lived on the pages of the book as I read them.
When I read lore from Wow or EQ I am reliving those events the same way. So yes it is the same.
Even Stars Wars starts out with.. A long time ago. That is history. The same as lore.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
A proper MMO story should be told through community-wide developments and events. It's simply more epic and it makes you as a player feel like you have a genuine contribution to make to the progress of a story that everyone is able to witness.
This is also the reason why devs these days are stuck in a situation where players have little to no impact on the world... because everyone has their own instanced storyline and everyone can be at different stages in the story. What the genre needs is a progressive server-wide storyline that moves in real time through the actions of the server community as a whole. Ironically WoW's cataclysm event is going to be the best example of this to use for modern audiences... I'm not suggesting games need something on cataclysm's scale but something of a similar nature on a regular basis that is influenced by player actions. That's a real MMO storyline.
Hell yes. A server-wide effort to make a real change to that server.
Players would be all over that.
I don't know. It sounds good on paper, but what you would get, depending on the event, would most likely result in a tiny percentage of hardcore gamers racing through the content and then it's over. Since it was a one time server wide event, most gamers wouldn't have been able to partcipate or experience it. In effect, the devs did an enormous amount of work for the benefit of a very few. Not that those kinds of events haven't worked in the past, but that's the reason you don't see them much nowadays. Devs want as many people as possible to experience and enjoy their work. This doesn't make them lazy or greedy, just human.
Comments
lol I still want to know which game it is that's so amazing
Apparenlty it's UO. At least thats the primay example given of what a "good" MMO is and everything else is just mindless lobotomized garbage.
I think i'll take that chance.
It's like plato's philospher kings all over again. One group that essentialy decided that they knew more than anyone else and it would be better that they were the leaders because of their education and that others would thank them for it.
On my way out but to add, I get that there is a disenfranchised group of players who are unhappy with the way things are going. But they tend to conveniently forget that in the course of progress things change and there is always a group that thinks things change for the worse and are getting dumbed down.
Happened in music (counterpoint to stile gallant or rock and roll: do you think people were sitting around saying "oh, someone finally gets it, we've been listening to boring music all this time") happened in films with the addition of sound.
And it's happening in games. for my part I really feel for players who feel they are being left behind. That is the truth. But in the end one nees to either adapt or move on. Or just wait. Things usually come 'round again.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thanking you kindly. Is that along the same lines of there being a bridge in Brooklyn for sale?
It is the way these people work. They are right, we are wrong. We don't know anything about what we talk about...this thread was and is turning into a bigger whine fest of name calling and putting down people.
See, I'm gonna tell you what you did wrong right here. There's nothing wrong with liking whatever you like in an MMO, but you can't make a blanket statement that if others dont like it, they don't belong in MMOs.
You don't get to decide what is right or wrong for an MMO. This is why there are different kinds of MMOs. As you said yourself, EQ is not LOTRO. Neither of those is EVE. We all have different tastes for our MMOs and you were not elected spokesman for all of us.
Variety, people, variety. How many times does it have to be said? Variety is good.
It's good with food, music, movies, and tv shows, so I don't see why variety suddenly wouldn't be good for MMO's and they all should be the same stuff. Large groups of people have different taste from eachother, however hard that is to understand for some people that others may not like the things they do.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
No, but when you and others on these boards say that an MMO needs to be like a linear single player RPG offline experience whose subscribers are gullible enough to pay a subscription for, then I think you are objectively wrong.
MMO's were meant to be worlds, indeed were worlds before devs turned them into dumbed down games in order to attract the non-gaming crowd. I'm just saying devs have underestimated the player base. Folks are smarter and can accept more challenge than what these devs and their business managers realize. In fact, I think a lot of devs know this (and protest to no avail), but business management steers them down a path many do not want to follow.
I seriously hope you're telling us your opinion, and don't try to say that as a fact. Because if you do, good luck proving yourself.
Also, if a game is a game and not 'a world' then it can't be challenging? What the?
Don't forget it makes you less the smart and a non-gamer.
You know, if we were given the right world and the right tools, I think this sort of thing could work pretty well. I have seen what players can create in NWN (did some myself), and it can be very good.
Make a world sprinkled with caves, settlement locations, towers, ruins, etc. Let each player pick a spot for their own, and do something like dungeon maker there. Let guilds claim larger areas to design and build. Guild vault would have to be located within that area. The guild would be responsible for protecting it.
I think player content could do a lot for the genre.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Everything works pretty well in a Utopia.
Just saying that theory and practice usually don't mix together well.
Well I guess it's a good thing there is not a single MMO on teh market that gives linear cutscene-filled rails that the players must follow.
Everything I did in EQ I can do in WoW, CoH, Fallen Earth, Istaria. Every single one of them give me tons of options.
And again Lore and storylines are the same thing. A story is a narrative of something that happened or is happeneing or will happen. Lore is a narrative of something that happened.
Venge Sunsoar
I think the problem here isn't the actual presence of a story... every MMO has a story to some extent. The actual problem is the way in which the story is told. Recent releases seem to be obsessing over the idea that every player has to have a personalised, instanced story that only involves their character as the 'hero'. This is a massive immersion killer when you realise that every other damn player in the game is also the sole 'hero' of exactly the same story. There's no sense of world or community to the storyline because as far as the story is concerned your character is the only one that matters.
A proper MMO story should be told through community-wide developments and events. It's simply more epic and it makes you as a player feel like you have a genuine contribution to make to the progress of a story that everyone is able to witness.
This is also the reason why devs these days are stuck in a situation where players have little to no impact on the world... because everyone has their own instanced storyline and everyone can be at different stages in the story. What the genre needs is a progressive server-wide storyline that moves in real time through the actions of the server community as a whole. Ironically WoW's cataclysm event is going to be the best example of this to use for modern audiences... I'm not suggesting games need something on cataclysm's scale but something of a similar nature on a regular basis that is influenced by player actions. That's a real MMO storyline.
What is this nonsense? Storyline is an *active* story you take part in, lore is the background where everything takes place. They definitely compliment each other, but they're not even near the same thing.
Hell yes. A server-wide effort to make a real change to that server.
Players would be all over that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Storyline is not an active story that you take part in. Books have storyline, movies have storyline. I'm not taking part in it just following it.
Lore is a background. It is a story of something that took place before. Because it is a story than it has a storyline, a beginning, a plot, a climac a conclusion. That is a storyline.
Everything that has a begining, and a plot has a storyline. Lore has this.
Venge Sunsoar
You Do take part in book's storyline, as an observer.
When I read the lore I'm taking part the exact same way.
The problem is that the story never moves...it has to stay static because it caters to tons of players and needs some sort of foundation. Everyone's killed 10 wolves...it's never going to remove the wolf population. Similarly a ton of people killed Illidan and Arthas...yet they stay alive so that others can kill them
IMO the storyline should be player created. Make a sprawling game world filled with environments, variety, and tons of hidden things. Make a capital city in the center. Let players pick their race, no classes though. The Capital city is a "safe" zone, so to speak, but while your safe there, you can't do anything there either, encouraging players to get out. All towns then would be player created. You'd have to cut down the materials and build your own house, or town. Guild's could take over other towns, and set prices, etc. You could even take over enough territory to establish a country, and a border.
The game could record how much monsters etc. die, and sometimes players could actually eliminate monsters from an area in this way. However, the game would also have marauding boss creatures or packs of monsters that might destroy towns. This way you have unique bosses and group activity. Players could generate their own quests by making requests for X reward and posting them on a bulletin board esque system.
In this kind of game, the players make the storyline, and the storyline constantly evolves. This how a true virtual world should work.
Sounds good to me Gordunk. I personally prefer to make my own individual story against the backdrop of a larger than life purpose.
Venge Sunsoar
You are not witnessing the events you read about. It is like reading history.
When I read lord of the rings I am witnessing the events the same way I am when I read a history book. The events are being lived or re-lived on the pages of the book as I read them.
When I read lore from Wow or EQ I am reliving those events the same way. So yes it is the same.
Even Stars Wars starts out with.. A long time ago. That is history. The same as lore.
I don't know. It sounds good on paper, but what you would get, depending on the event, would most likely result in a tiny percentage of hardcore gamers racing through the content and then it's over. Since it was a one time server wide event, most gamers wouldn't have been able to partcipate or experience it. In effect, the devs did an enormous amount of work for the benefit of a very few. Not that those kinds of events haven't worked in the past, but that's the reason you don't see them much nowadays. Devs want as many people as possible to experience and enjoy their work. This doesn't make them lazy or greedy, just human.