The problem is that the story never moves...it has to stay static because it caters to tons of players and needs some sort of foundation. Everyone's killed 10 wolves...it's never going to remove the wolf population. Similarly a ton of people killed Illidan and Arthas...yet they stay alive so that others can kill them
It moves, but only in your game. The characters that die in your story never come back. You won't see even if other players are doing the same thing you were before. For you, everyone is already dead.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
When I read lord of the rings I am witnessing the events the same way I am when I read a history book. The events are being lived or re-lived on the pages of the book as I read them.
When I read lore from Wow or EQ I am reliving those events the same way. So yes it is the same.
Even Stars Wars starts out with.. A long time ago. That is history. The same as lore.
No, you are witnessing -current- events in LoTR and -past- events in history book.
Especially when talking about movies or games, where there are cutscenes and not just text- as it should be, because games should make use of their 3D advantage- lore is what you read in-game, storylines are the actual cutscenes and or events that happen to you or people around you.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Whether a game is designed as a themepark or a sandbox or whatever other label you choose to give it, we already have players who make up their own stories. We always have. They are called "roleplayers." For over a decade their numbers have been shrinking to the point of near extinction. It's hard to even find a game anymore that has a roleplaying server. It's even harder to find the roleplayers on such a server even when it exists. I would estimate they make up less than 5% of all mmo players.
So when I hear, hey let's all make up our own stories, that sounds good, but given that there is nothing preventing people from doing that in any game already, and given how few people actually do it, I know what it means. It means open world free for all PvP.
Running around whacking other players is not a story. If it is a story it's a really weak story.
I don't want a game where stories depend on the pea sized imaginations of people who have already demonstrated their only real gaming interest is getting that next piece of loot, and having it be something better than that other guy's piece of loot, or else sitting in a shrub waiting to gank a passerby. If anyone is really serious about making up their own stories, my advice is join a roleplay server and roleplay.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
And again Lore and storylines are the same thing. A story is a narrative of something that happened or is happeneing or will happen. Lore is a narrative of something that happened.
Venge Sunsoar
What is this nonsense? Storyline is an *active* story you take part in, lore is the background where everything takes place. They definitely compliment each other, but they're not even near the same thing.
The problem is that the story never moves...it has to stay static because it caters to tons of players and needs some sort of foundation. Everyone's killed 10 wolves...it's never going to remove the wolf population. Similarly a ton of people killed Illidan and Arthas...yet they stay alive so that others can kill them
IMO the storyline should be player created. Make a sprawling game world filled with environments, variety, and tons of hidden things. Make a capital city in the center. Let players pick their race, no classes though. The Capital city is a "safe" zone, so to speak, but while your safe there, you can't do anything there either, encouraging players to get out. All towns then would be player created. You'd have to cut down the materials and build your own house, or town. Guild's could take over other towns, and set prices, etc. You could even take over enough territory to establish a country, and a border.
The game could record how much monsters etc. die, and sometimes players could actually eliminate monsters from an area in this way. However, the game would also have marauding boss creatures or packs of monsters that might destroy towns. This way you have unique bosses and group activity. Players could generate their own quests by making requests for X reward and posting them on a bulletin board esque system.
In this kind of game, the players make the storyline, and the storyline constantly evolves. This how a true virtual world should work.
So instead of the game telling me to kill 12 boars, another player would be? I guess it depends on the imagination of the quest writer, but I don't think I'd feel the same sense of completion that I'd get finishing a story driven quest then if I did a quest written by another player. CoH/CoV has player created missions and they are criticized for becoming the focus of gameplay. Would these types of player created quests be abused in the same way in your scenario?
If I am reading what happend in the distant past of EQ or reading what happened to Icarus as he tried to fly. Why is the Icarus a story but the EQ is not?
You being a part of the story just makes it more exciting, it doesnt' make it more of a story, just more personal
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If I am reading what happend in the distant past of EQ or reading what happened to Icarus as he tried to fly. Why is the Icarus a story but the EQ is not?
You being a part of the story just makes it more exciting, it doesnt' make it more of a story, just more personal
Because lore is the backstory of the (fictional) universe and if you are witnessing the events described in the backstory, it ceases to be a backstory, and becomes a storyline.
You are observing what happens to icarus as he tries to fly. That is not backstory, that is a current event.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
You know, if we were given the right world and the right tools, I think this sort of thing could work pretty well. I have seen what players can create in NWN (did some myself), and it can be very good.
Make a world sprinkled with caves, settlement locations, towers, ruins, etc. Let each player pick a spot for their own, and do something like dungeon maker there. Let guilds claim larger areas to design and build. Guild vault would have to be located within that area. The guild would be responsible for protecting it.
I think player content could do a lot for the genre.
Then you better get to it and make your own game. Come on now, let's see you do it. If you want to make your own stuff, your own story-line or whatever, go to single-players, oh wait....that is meant for people who only want a linear "do this, do that" type of game.
they do need stories but that should not be the sole focus of the game. That is why MMO's are so crappy right now, the story should be there to enhance the world that the devs have made. It should back up all the non storyline content (Dungeons (to a lesser extent), PvP, crafting, housing..ect)
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
You know, if we were given the right world and the right tools, I think this sort of thing could work pretty well. I have seen what players can create in NWN (did some myself), and it can be very good.
Make a world sprinkled with caves, settlement locations, towers, ruins, etc. Let each player pick a spot for their own, and do something like dungeon maker there. Let guilds claim larger areas to design and build. Guild vault would have to be located within that area. The guild would be responsible for protecting it.
I think player content could do a lot for the genre.
I agree and think in some strange way the genre will eventually make a complete 360 back to player driver games like muds or something similar. Where players can create the worlds they play in.
Well not the entire genre, because there is plenty of room for many types of games. I sure long for a game like UO was, but I don't think we need to eradicate every other type of mmo or talk down to other players for not liking sandboxes.
Whether I'm reading about the backstory or reading about current events they are both stories. And stories have a storyline - the path a story follows.
A story is just a recital of series of events, either real or fictional. A storyline is particular detailed events of the story. All stories have storylines.
So if I'm reading the backstory of EQ or reading about ICARUS, they are both events that took place in the past. They both shaped how things worked out today (Icarus really is part of greek mythology which shaped roman mythology and their stories helped shape our laws, philosophies and art of today) I'm just reading a story which be definition has a storyline.
Story has nothing to do with timeframe it's just a recital of events. Storyline has nothing to do with timeframe or personal involvement it's just the detail of events from start to finish either done or sometime in the future.
And if I'm reading the backstory or reading a history text, neither are current events and both are unfolding for you as if they are - until you finish when they are relegated back to the past.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
1. The existance of a story in an MMO does not nscessarly need to be linked to a linear quest line. Look at EQ, it had a lot of different stories all being told at the same time. It was up to the player to chose which ones to become involved in.
2. Without stories all you are left with is cut scences and loot. Story is the underlying foundation upon which a game world is built. Even FPS games have stories.
3. The requirement that particular stories be played though in a particular order is bad. It removes player choice, replayability, and player immersion in the larger game world. It ultimately leads to games like AION where there is but a single path through the world and all players must follow it. Step off the path and you start running into walls.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Stories are stories, but we are talking about lore vs. storyline so keep to the point.
Storyline may as well refer to the Narrative- which makes it much easier to understand.
If you are not there, it's lore/history you are reading. If you are there witnessing said events, you are reading storyline/narrative.
Thepoint is the same. Lore is a recital of events therefore it is a story. All stories have a detail of events therefore they have a storyline. Whether it is current or in the past it is a story. If it is a story it is has storyline. Storyline is not defined by timeframe. Storyline is the path the story takes.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: Your right nightbringr a story does not have to be linked with a linear series of events. The storyline can take many shapes and forms, however there does need to be series of events which is the storyline. How that happens is totally arbitrary and up to the author(s).
I'm out of time, be back in a couple hours to continue this.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Stories are stories, but we are talking about lore vs. storyline so keep to the point.
Storyline may as well refer to the Narrative- which makes it much easier to understand.
If you are not there, it's lore/history you are reading. If you are there witnessing said events, you are reading storyline/narrative.
Thepoint is the same. Lore is a recital of events therefore it is a story. All stories have a detail of events therefore they have a storyline. Whether it is current or in the past it is a story. If it is a story it is has storyline. Storyline is not defined by timeframe. Storyline is the path the story takes.
Venge Sunsoar
The problem is that "storyline" or "story" can mean many things- and because of this, you can't say that lore and storyline are the same thing, because "storyline" can also mean "narrative", which certainly is not same as "lore" and as a matter of fact is what MMO "storylines" usually are. Narratives.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Originally posted by pencilrick If you are the type of player who just has to follow some linear plotline, with breadcrumb trails laid out before you, then MMO's are the wrong type of game for you. Stories RUIN MMO's. "SETTING, FACTION, and CONFLICT" is what MMO's need. WORLDS, not stories. I'll tell you a secret: In a good MMO, the players make and are their own stories. You setting off from a starting village to become a blacksmith or a hero or a diplomat or explorer or anything else IS your story. Your gameplay writes your story. When someone tries to force a linear storyline upon you, they're just taking your freedom. They're telling you that you do not have enough imagination, initiative, or common sense to play your character and to find your own direction. Basically, you have fallen into the trap of mediocre games designed by mediocre devs.
[Mod Edit]
Your story sounds pretty boring.
Think I'll let you know...the actual game developers...create the story.
A narrative and lore are the same things. A narrative is a recital of events. It does not mean someone is currently standing there in front you stating. A narrative is the person tellign the story. A history book is a narrative of things in the past told by the author.
Lore is a narrative of things in the past told by whoever wrote the lore. The word narrative itself means a message that tells the particulars of an act or occurrence or course of events. It's a recital. Again nothing about timeframe. It's the same thing the word is a synonym for recital, anecdotal, fictional, fictive, historical, reported, retold, sequential, chrnooical, history... and probably a whole lot more words I can't think of.
Lore is a story. A narrative is the telling of a story. All stories have storylines.
Venge Sunsoar
ok now I really have to go.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Then I don't know what the correct word is to use, but it's not "lore" when you witness current events. This is what we mean by "storyline", whatever the right word for it is.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Games have lore. Questing builds stories as well as amplifies lore, apart from what the RP players create in their communities. MMORPG's just like life need lore and stories, otherwise it's simply a Diablo hack-n-slash clone.
If you are the type of player who just has to follow some linear plotline, with breadcrumb trails laid out before you, then MMO's are the wrong type of game for you.
Stories RUIN MMO's. "SETTING, FACTION, and CONFLICT" is what MMO's need. WORLDS, not stories.
I'll tell you a secret: In a good MMO, the players make and are their own stories. You setting off from a starting village to become a blacksmith or a hero or a diplomat or explorer or anything else IS your story. Your gameplay writes your story.
When someone tries to force a linear storyline upon you, they're just taking your freedom. They're telling you that you do not have enough imagination, initiative, or common sense to play your character and to find your own direction. Basically, you have fallen into the trap of mediocre games designed by mediocre devs.
[Mod Edit]
Your story sounds pretty boring.
Think I'll let you know...the actual game developers...create the story.
Perhaps his story is, but the next players might not be. Thats kind of the point hes trying to make. He would prefer devs simply give us the lore and setting, what has happened in the past, why things are how they are, who & why youre fighting, major world events, etc but then allowing us to pick up the story on our own from there and create our own adventure & life for ourself, rather than being told by some quest NPC what your lif eis, what choices youre making, and essentially who you are.
I think one of the big problems is too many games lately are all just the same, or very very similar lore & stories, just the names have been changed to make them seem unique. So rather than following generic boring story number 46486455644, it would be nice to have a history & series of events leading up to the moment you enter the world, and then allowing you t make a story of your own from there.
Now i know, people will say "you can do that anyway, just dont follow the quests", but thats harmful in most cases to your characters advancement due to missing out on things like xp, gold, equipment, skills that might be given as rewards. I think a better system would be to have "quests" done as more of like a hired hand thing, where youre payed for performing a service, but in a common currency, no unique rewards limited to that specific quest or quest chain, and then allow you to purchase everything from merchants. Im kind of tired of the game sthat use formulas that require you to complete a specific series of events in order to get any decent equipment, rather than allowing me to earn it through methods of my own choosing.
The Earth is a sand box. I think the players have come up with some pretty amazing content.
QFT, thats the best way to look at it.
We didnt need someone to put us here and tell us "this is what was before, and this is what youre going to do with yourself" and have your entire life story preplanned, controlled, and scripted. Sure we are taught history in school, and are presented with various options on what we can possibly do with ourselves, but it is still our own choice what we do in the end. Our freedom to do our own thing, create our own stories for ourselves, is what has made so much of what we have possible (including MMOs and video games in general). Also, look at all the varying forms of societies we currently have, and have had throughout history. Most MMOs dont allow anything even remotely close to creating your own society and way of life, and pretty much consist of "these are your beliefs, your reasons for doing what you do, killing who you kill, and going where you go", but there are a few gems that do allow more than that, and hopefully more in the future.
Comments
It moves, but only in your game. The characters that die in your story never come back. You won't see even if other players are doing the same thing you were before. For you, everyone is already dead.
No, you are witnessing -current- events in LoTR and -past- events in history book.
Especially when talking about movies or games, where there are cutscenes and not just text- as it should be, because games should make use of their 3D advantage- lore is what you read in-game, storylines are the actual cutscenes and or events that happen to you or people around you.
LOTR may be current. Star wars definately wasn't and both are stories. Myths and legends are stories. They are from the past.
History books talking about the adventures of Zeus are myths. Myths are stories. Tales from the bible may or may not be real. Those are stories.
They are all stories. Whether they are current or not, real or not. They are all stories. Timeframe doesn't define what is a story.
I'm calling scrabble BS on this one.
Whether a game is designed as a themepark or a sandbox or whatever other label you choose to give it, we already have players who make up their own stories. We always have. They are called "roleplayers." For over a decade their numbers have been shrinking to the point of near extinction. It's hard to even find a game anymore that has a roleplaying server. It's even harder to find the roleplayers on such a server even when it exists. I would estimate they make up less than 5% of all mmo players.
So when I hear, hey let's all make up our own stories, that sounds good, but given that there is nothing preventing people from doing that in any game already, and given how few people actually do it, I know what it means. It means open world free for all PvP.
Running around whacking other players is not a story. If it is a story it's a really weak story.
I don't want a game where stories depend on the pea sized imaginations of people who have already demonstrated their only real gaming interest is getting that next piece of loot, and having it be something better than that other guy's piece of loot, or else sitting in a shrub waiting to gank a passerby. If anyone is really serious about making up their own stories, my advice is join a roleplay server and roleplay.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
So instead of the game telling me to kill 12 boars, another player would be? I guess it depends on the imagination of the quest writer, but I don't think I'd feel the same sense of completion that I'd get finishing a story driven quest then if I did a quest written by another player. CoH/CoV has player created missions and they are criticized for becoming the focus of gameplay. Would these types of player created quests be abused in the same way in your scenario?
Timeframe doesn't matter, but if you are part of the story (as an observer) or just reading what happened once does matter.
If I am reading what happend in the distant past of EQ or reading what happened to Icarus as he tried to fly. Why is the Icarus a story but the EQ is not?
You being a part of the story just makes it more exciting, it doesnt' make it more of a story, just more personal
Because lore is the backstory of the (fictional) universe and if you are witnessing the events described in the backstory, it ceases to be a backstory, and becomes a storyline.
You are observing what happens to icarus as he tries to fly. That is not backstory, that is a current event.
Then you better get to it and make your own game. Come on now, let's see you do it. If you want to make your own stuff, your own story-line or whatever, go to single-players, oh wait....that is meant for people who only want a linear "do this, do that" type of game.
OP your wrong,
they do need stories but that should not be the sole focus of the game. That is why MMO's are so crappy right now, the story should be there to enhance the world that the devs have made. It should back up all the non storyline content (Dungeons (to a lesser extent), PvP, crafting, housing..ect)
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I agree and think in some strange way the genre will eventually make a complete 360 back to player driver games like muds or something similar. Where players can create the worlds they play in.
Well not the entire genre, because there is plenty of room for many types of games. I sure long for a game like UO was, but I don't think we need to eradicate every other type of mmo or talk down to other players for not liking sandboxes.
Whether I'm reading about the backstory or reading about current events they are both stories. And stories have a storyline - the path a story follows.
A story is just a recital of series of events, either real or fictional. A storyline is particular detailed events of the story. All stories have storylines.
So if I'm reading the backstory of EQ or reading about ICARUS, they are both events that took place in the past. They both shaped how things worked out today (Icarus really is part of greek mythology which shaped roman mythology and their stories helped shape our laws, philosophies and art of today) I'm just reading a story which be definition has a storyline.
Story has nothing to do with timeframe it's just a recital of events. Storyline has nothing to do with timeframe or personal involvement it's just the detail of events from start to finish either done or sometime in the future.
And if I'm reading the backstory or reading a history text, neither are current events and both are unfolding for you as if they are - until you finish when they are relegated back to the past.
Stories are stories, but we are talking about lore vs. storyline so keep to the point.
Storyline may as well refer to the Narrative- which makes it much easier to understand.
If you are not there, it's lore/history you are reading. If you are there witnessing said events, you are reading storyline/narrative.
1. The existance of a story in an MMO does not nscessarly need to be linked to a linear quest line. Look at EQ, it had a lot of different stories all being told at the same time. It was up to the player to chose which ones to become involved in.
2. Without stories all you are left with is cut scences and loot. Story is the underlying foundation upon which a game world is built. Even FPS games have stories.
3. The requirement that particular stories be played though in a particular order is bad. It removes player choice, replayability, and player immersion in the larger game world. It ultimately leads to games like AION where there is but a single path through the world and all players must follow it. Step off the path and you start running into walls.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Thepoint is the same. Lore is a recital of events therefore it is a story. All stories have a detail of events therefore they have a storyline. Whether it is current or in the past it is a story. If it is a story it is has storyline. Storyline is not defined by timeframe. Storyline is the path the story takes.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: Your right nightbringr a story does not have to be linked with a linear series of events. The storyline can take many shapes and forms, however there does need to be series of events which is the storyline. How that happens is totally arbitrary and up to the author(s).
I'm out of time, be back in a couple hours to continue this.
The problem is that "storyline" or "story" can mean many things- and because of this, you can't say that lore and storyline are the same thing, because "storyline" can also mean "narrative", which certainly is not same as "lore" and as a matter of fact is what MMO "storylines" usually are. Narratives.
Your story sounds pretty boring.
Think I'll let you know...the actual game developers...create the story.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
A narrative and lore are the same things. A narrative is a recital of events. It does not mean someone is currently standing there in front you stating. A narrative is the person tellign the story. A history book is a narrative of things in the past told by the author.
Lore is a narrative of things in the past told by whoever wrote the lore. The word narrative itself means a message that tells the particulars of an act or occurrence or course of events. It's a recital. Again nothing about timeframe. It's the same thing the word is a synonym for recital, anecdotal, fictional, fictive, historical, reported, retold, sequential, chrnooical, history... and probably a whole lot more words I can't think of.
Lore is a story. A narrative is the telling of a story. All stories have storylines.
Venge Sunsoar
ok now I really have to go.
Then I don't know what the correct word is to use, but it's not "lore" when you witness current events. This is what we mean by "storyline", whatever the right word for it is.
Games have lore. Questing builds stories as well as amplifies lore, apart from what the RP players create in their communities. MMORPG's just like life need lore and stories, otherwise it's simply a Diablo hack-n-slash clone.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Perhaps his story is, but the next players might not be. Thats kind of the point hes trying to make. He would prefer devs simply give us the lore and setting, what has happened in the past, why things are how they are, who & why youre fighting, major world events, etc but then allowing us to pick up the story on our own from there and create our own adventure & life for ourself, rather than being told by some quest NPC what your lif eis, what choices youre making, and essentially who you are.
I think one of the big problems is too many games lately are all just the same, or very very similar lore & stories, just the names have been changed to make them seem unique. So rather than following generic boring story number 46486455644, it would be nice to have a history & series of events leading up to the moment you enter the world, and then allowing you t make a story of your own from there.
Now i know, people will say "you can do that anyway, just dont follow the quests", but thats harmful in most cases to your characters advancement due to missing out on things like xp, gold, equipment, skills that might be given as rewards. I think a better system would be to have "quests" done as more of like a hired hand thing, where youre payed for performing a service, but in a common currency, no unique rewards limited to that specific quest or quest chain, and then allow you to purchase everything from merchants. Im kind of tired of the game sthat use formulas that require you to complete a specific series of events in order to get any decent equipment, rather than allowing me to earn it through methods of my own choosing.
The Earth is a sand box. I think the players have come up with some pretty amazing content.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If that were even remotely true there wouldn't be millions of us clawing to get into virtual worlds, yourself included.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
QFT, thats the best way to look at it.
We didnt need someone to put us here and tell us "this is what was before, and this is what youre going to do with yourself" and have your entire life story preplanned, controlled, and scripted. Sure we are taught history in school, and are presented with various options on what we can possibly do with ourselves, but it is still our own choice what we do in the end. Our freedom to do our own thing, create our own stories for ourselves, is what has made so much of what we have possible (including MMOs and video games in general). Also, look at all the varying forms of societies we currently have, and have had throughout history. Most MMOs dont allow anything even remotely close to creating your own society and way of life, and pretty much consist of "these are your beliefs, your reasons for doing what you do, killing who you kill, and going where you go", but there are a few gems that do allow more than that, and hopefully more in the future.
It's the cash shop that is gating the content.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2