That's a brilliant idea that more MMO's should use. Include weather patterns like rain or snow and day/night patterns influencing the mobs that come out, and it would be perfect. Combine it with players affecting the environment by how they finish up public quests and you would gaming bliss.
Indeed. I'd play that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Changing content by seasons is an idea more games should use. It gives the sense of a real living world, rather than one in stasis.
Of course it sounds amazing on paper.
"Let's change content by seasons, it'll give a sense of a real living world rather then one in stasis!"
You know what your producer says?
Ok, well if we do that we have to add 6 months to the development time because we now have to go back and retouch every single area and item and enemy in the game, making four different versions of each. This is going to add 10 million dollars to the budget.
Then the investors/publishers catch wind and say "No f-ing way. We've already spent 50 million dollars and have zero return on our investment. We need this game out before Q2 2010 no ifs, ands, or buts. We do not approve of this measure, we don't feel it's worth the investment in time and money."
Then the producer tells you, "This is the kind of things we can possibly add to the game once it has been released."
So once again, as with many many many things in MMOs, with unlimited time, money, and talent you could make some really awesome stuff...
But practically, the developers are 100x more likely to just make a "winter zone" and a "fall zone" to give that sense of change and save 10 million dollars and 6 months.
Doesn't mean it's right, but it's a fact.
lol now a days it rarelly reach that point!they all say instance the shit out ofg this game and from astart to finish it will be ready very fast(a la aika,5 carbon copy of 1 map)lol
Ok, well if we do that we have to add 6 months to the development time because we now have to go back and retouch every single area and item and enemy in the game, making four different versions of each. This is going to add 10 million dollars to the budget.
Then the investors/publishers catch wind and say "No f-ing way. We've already spent 50 million dollars and have zero return on our investment. We need this game out before Q2 2010 no ifs, ands, or buts. We do not approve of this measure, we don't feel it's worth the investment in time and money."
Then the producer tells you, "This is the kind of things we can possibly add to the game once it has been released."
So once again, as with many many many things in MMOs, with unlimited time, money, and talent you could make some really awesome stuff...
But practically, the developers are 100x more likely to just make a "winter zone" and a "fall zone" to give that sense of change and save 10 million dollars and 6 months.
... or they can include it in their MMO, to create an edge compared to the same old same old other MMO's around, and use procedural programming to create changing hot areas.
Other MMO's seeing one other MMO being successful with just such a system, will follow as always happens... :-)
Aion and I think some other MMO's already have a night/day scheme for certain areas, btw, where the mobs available change.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I find it sad that no games anymore are catering towards the explorers out there. I love to just run around and discover things in the world. To find out whats behind the next turn in the road, explore the cave I see up in the mountainside.
The last game that did it, is Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Unfortunately its pretty much dead.
Is it over for us explorers? Do we have anything to look forward to in the future?
The vocal "I want instant gratification; Travel times over 5 minutes is tedious; I must have fast travel or it isn't fun; I can't play more than an hour because my spouse berates me/Paris Hilton says it's not hot/Must watch reality TV' crowd killed it.
I loved running around Dereth (AC1) and finding places and dungeons and having the genuine feeling of "Man, I didn't know this was here! I wonder what it is or where it goes...". And Dereth was created as an open, spacy place that you could truly pick a direction and start running and that gave the developers the freedom to just plant new dungeons and points of interest out in the middle of nowhere for people to explore and find.
Now the above mentioned group demands to know every new place added and it must be accessible to them in their tiny playing time frame or else the baby rabbits start dying.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
So once again, as with many many many things in MMOs, with unlimited time, money, and talent you could make some really awesome stuff...
But practically, the developers are 100x more likely to just make a "winter zone" and a "fall zone" to give that sense of change and save 10 million dollars and 6 months.
Doesn't mean it's right, but it's a fact.
True, but if you want to set yourself apart, you have to take chances. How are the 'me too' WoW-clones doing these days?
If you want to hit a home run, you have to swing hard.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Changing content by seasons is an idea more games should use. It gives the sense of a real living world, rather than one in stasis.
Of course it sounds amazing on paper.
"Let's change content by seasons, it'll give a sense of a real living world rather then one in stasis!"
You know what your producer says?
Ok, well if we do that we have to add 6 months to the development time because we now have to go back and retouch every single area and item and enemy in the game, making four different versions of each. This is going to add 10 million dollars to the budget.
Then the investors/publishers catch wind and say "No f-ing way. We've already spent 50 million dollars and have zero return on our investment. We need this game out before Q2 2010 no ifs, ands, or buts. We do not approve of this measure, we don't feel it's worth the investment in time and money."
Then the producer tells you, "This is the kind of things we can possibly add to the game once it has been released."
So once again, as with many many many things in MMOs, with unlimited time, money, and talent you could make some really awesome stuff...
But practically, the developers are 100x more likely to just make a "winter zone" and a "fall zone" to give that sense of change and save 10 million dollars and 6 months.
Doesn't mean it's right, but it's a fact.
Asheron's Call changes seasons, and up until the dreaded Throne of Destiny patch which broke certain things it had dynamic weather too. And it had this 11 years ago at launch. It's really not that much work to do something like that, just nobody seems to want to, plus I'm sure there's even better tech now to make the process easier then how AC did it way back in the day. They even change the wildlife that you can't interact with. For example it has butterflies during the spring and bats during the fall.
Changing mobs with the seasons is more work but still not bad. Most games have scene files or generators that get placed based on the texture/look of an area. Making extra versions wouldn't be that time consuming, and then swapping out the generators/files once every 4 months wouldn't be that much work either.
I don't think it's a process that has much cost to it, just more of a "we don't want to have to remember to do this every 4 months for the life of the game mentality".
... or they can include it in their MMO, to create an edge compared to the same old same old other MMO's around, and use procedural programming to create changing areas.
Other MMO's seeing one other MMO being successful with just such a system, will follow as always happens... :-)
Aion and I think some other MMO's already have a night/day scheme for certain areas, btw, where the mobs available change.
I'm just saying it's one of those ideas that sound amazing on paper - but actually implementing it and getting it done for launch etc. are two entirely different things.
As a producer, I'd ask you a lot of questions.
"Ok, so how often do we switch from day to night? If it's too often then it'll be too unrealistic, but if it's more realistic then some player who play odd hours may never get to experience once side or the other, and that's not good."
"Ok, if we switch out mobs, do we then also have to switch all quests and rewards associated with the first mob type? That's going to take a lot of time and effort to rewrite quests and loot tables."
That kind of stuff. I am not saying it's a bad idea, I like the idea, but I've found over the years that most MMO players and CERTAINLY most forum posters want to have their cake AND eat it too without realizing the reality of things.
Procedual generation is great, I think this could be a big step in the right direction towards the future of all gaming not just MMOs...
But nothing can nor will ever beat the hands-on touch of a very skilled artist or designer. Computer generated content no matter how varied is still never going to have the same feel as something created by a living, breathing, creative mind.
Changing content by seasons is an idea more games should use. It gives the sense of a real living world, rather than one in stasis.
Of course it sounds amazing on paper.
"Let's change content by seasons, it'll give a sense of a real living world rather then one in stasis!"
You know what your producer says?
Ok, well if we do that we have to add 6 months to the development time because we now have to go back and retouch every single area and item and enemy in the game, making four different versions of each. This is going to add 10 million dollars to the budget.
Then the investors/publishers catch wind and say "No f-ing way. We've already spent 50 million dollars and have zero return on our investment. We need this game out before Q2 2010 no ifs, ands, or buts. We do not approve of this measure, we don't feel it's worth the investment in time and money."
Then the producer tells you, "This is the kind of things we can possibly add to the game once it has been released."
So once again, as with many many many things in MMOs, with unlimited time, money, and talent you could make some really awesome stuff...
But practically, the developers are 100x more likely to just make a "winter zone" and a "fall zone" to give that sense of change and save 10 million dollars and 6 months.
Doesn't mean it's right, but it's a fact.
Asheron's Call changes seasons, and up until the dreaded Throne of Destiny patch which broke certain things it had dynamic weather too. And it had this 11 years ago at launch. It's really not that much work to do something like that, just nobody seems to want to, plus I'm sure there's even better tech now to make the process easier then how AC did it way back in the day. They even change the wildlife that you can't interact with. For example it has butterflies during the spring and bats during the fall.
Changing mobs with the seasons is more work but still not bad. Most games have scene files or generators that get placed based on the texture/look of an area. Making extra versions wouldn't be that time consuming, and then swapping out the generators/files once every 4 months wouldn't be that much work either.
I don't think it's a process that has much cost to it, just more of a "we don't want to have to remember to do this every 4 months for the life of the game mentality".
I think that line of thought drives more aspects of MMO design, or should I say lack thereof, these days than it should.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
... or they can include it in their MMO, to create an edge compared to the same old same old other MMO's around, and use procedural programming to create changing areas.
Other MMO's seeing one other MMO being successful with just such a system, will follow as always happens... :-)
Aion and I think some other MMO's already have a night/day scheme for certain areas, btw, where the mobs available change.
I'm just saying it's one of those ideas that sound amazing on paper - but actually implementing it and getting it done for launch etc. are two entirely different things.
As a producer, I'd ask you a lot of questions.
"Ok, so how often do we switch from day to night? If it's too often then it'll be too unrealistic, but if it's more realistic then some player who play odd hours may never get to experience once side or the other, and that's not good."
"Ok, if we switch out mobs, do we then also have to switch all quests and rewards associated with the first mob type? That's going to take a lot of time and effort to rewrite quests and loot tables."
That kind of stuff. I am not saying it's a bad idea, I like the idea, but I've found over the years that most MMO players and CERTAINLY most forum posters want to have their cake AND eat it too without realizing the reality of things.
Procedual generation is great, I think this could be a big step in the right direction towards the future of all gaming not just MMOs...
But nothing can nor will ever beat the hands-on touch of a very skilled artist or designer. Computer generated content no matter how varied is still never going to have the same feel as something created by a living, breathing, creative mind.
That's why I'm letting you know a game has done it and did so starting 11 years ago, it actually ISN'T tough to do. And they have day night cycles as well, and a changing sky that is sometimes cloudy sometimes not (which played into the weather system when they had it) and the clouds move across the sky.
I agree that a lot of players have expectations that are too high, but this one is very feasible.
I find it sad that no games anymore are catering towards the explorers out there. I love to just run around and discover things in the world. To find out whats behind the next turn in the road, explore the cave I see up in the mountainside.
The last game that did it, is Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Unfortunately its pretty much dead.
Is it over for us explorers? Do we have anything to look forward to in the future?
The vocal "I want instant gratification; Travel times over 5 minutes is tedious; I must have fast travel or it isn't fun; I can't play more than an hour because my spouse berates me/Paris Hilton says it's not hot/Must watch reality TV' crowd killed it.
I loved running around Dereth (AC1) and finding places and dungeons and having the genuine feeling of "Man, I didn't know this was here! I wonder what it is or where it goes...". And Dereth was created as an open, spacy place that you could truly pick a direction and start running and that gave the developers the freedom to just plant new dungeons and points of interest out in the middle of nowhere for people to explore and find.
Now the above mentioned group demands to know every new place added and it must be accessible to them in their tiny playing time frame or else the baby rabbits start dying.
yep i feel the same!half the fun is the journey gees!if they rewarded both equally at least lol that would be nice
(but they wont their instance would end up empty in a hurry i bet!)
To play the devil's advocate, there is a lot of exploration to do in WoW. Though except for Day/Night and weather patterns it's not a dynamic world. Most forget it because the game is 5+ years old and they don't feel like exploring it anymore.
Some zones used to have minor changes over the course of the day, such as sort of fish you can only catch at midnight, rare spawn patrols and so on. Though I don't think Blizzard intend to keep it in Cataclysm, as most of the dynamism of Northrend goes into their phasing technology bound to the player's questing progression.
Most game I've played had plenty of exploration to do. However, caverns, houses, or other notable features are likely to have a purpose... Because it goes down to cost/benefit.
While it's not really a big thing (except for the achievement.... zzzz) but I really enjoyed exploring in that game, back in the day.
--I just went through a huge emotional nostalgic moment just then, looking through old salvaged WoW screenshots... almost made me cry looking back on my raiding guild picture looking at a downed Hakkar--
...back on topic.
I think what games are missing now is "cool stuff that is hidden".
That's what exploration is all about, no?
So... if it were WoW... in a jungle, you could have, say, a random-spawning treasure chest (the sorta-crappy ones that maybe, at best, have a random blue BoE inside, and worst have alterac cheese and wildthorn), spawn in a CLEARING, that is HIDDEN behind TREES and FOLIAGE.
Ta-da, if you walk by, in an exploring fashion, you will find a treasure chest. Better yet, put a neutral creep in there that LOOKS COOL, and maybe even a COOL LOOKING STRUCTURE OR THING there. Then add in some ambient lighting coming through the trees.
Suddenly, exploring places doesn't seem like such a stupid, wasteful thing to do. Hell, make the neutral NPC a rare elite, now you're talkin'.
Now do that in like 15 places and make it an achievement!
And then we'll have guides up and running that show you all the places before you've even gone there and.....!
sigh... back to square one.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
I find it sad that no games anymore are catering towards the explorers out there. I love to just run around and discover things in the world. To find out whats behind the next turn in the road, explore the cave I see up in the mountainside.
The last game that did it, is Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Unfortunately its pretty much dead.
Is it over for us explorers? Do we have anything to look forward to in the future?
Pretty much dead. That is not a playstyle resonate with many. People goes to places like wowwiki to download all the map and stuff.
Exploration slows down progression and most people are playing to progress.
Plus, there is not enough resources to build a large enough, and interesting enough world to explore. You either have very big empty boring zones, or smaller but interseting zones.
What happened to exploration? . Vanguard and Saga of Heroes is your game. Huge expanses to explore and even after they added teleporters, you still spend a lot of time traveling around. . The game was unpopular. There are rumors that it will shut down soon. . long travel times == unpopular game == loss of money for investors
"Ok, so how often do we switch from day to night? If it's too often then it'll be too unrealistic, but if it's more realistic then some player who play odd hours may never get to experience once side or the other, and that's not good."
"Ok, if we switch out mobs, do we then also have to switch all quests and rewards associated with the first mob type? That's going to take a lot of time and effort to rewrite quests and loot tables."
That kind of stuff. I am not saying it's a bad idea, I like the idea, but I've found over the years that most MMO players and CERTAINLY most forum posters want to have their cake AND eat it too without realizing the reality of things.
Procedual generation is great, I think this could be a big step in the right direction towards the future of all gaming not just MMOs...
But nothing can nor will ever beat the hands-on touch of a very skilled artist or designer. Computer generated content no matter how varied is still never going to have the same feel as something created by a living, breathing, creative mind.
I think the day/night cycle for a lot of MMO's is something like 2-3 hrs? I recall, even Everquest (yes, that one) already had a day/night cycle, one where you even had a change of mobs for one zone, Kithicor Wood, that became infested with higher level skeleton mobs through the night. It was a choice between waiting at the start of the zone until it was dawn again to cross, or to take on the risky traveling and race through the zone while being chased by skeletons (wallhugging helped too). Very fun times
I agree it is extra work, but how much depends how you handle it. You don't have to have ALL your content changed of all your zones by season or weather changes, it can be certain hotspots. And it can be a combination of work by an artist for the details or finishing touches and procedural to generate the bulk of mob changes.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My answer to everything that starts with "What happened to....".
You're playing the wrong game.
The mainstream games are designed to do one thing only, bring in the most players that is possible. They do this by making the game widely acceptable to different types of gamers. That involves making it easy to level, easy to get around, easy to learn, and easy to be good.
If you want a game with substance you can't play the WoWs and Aions of the world, you have to play the real games that don't have 4 million players in them. That's because those other games are made to target a specific type of gamer and to be incredibly fun. They're not shooting for the #1 spot, they just want to be truly enjoyable.
So in short, stop playing games like WoW (including WAR and Aion).
True. Look past the themeparkish carnival games of eye-candy and pinata bashing for instant wins and entitlements to find some future gems; perhaps more sandboxy like Xsyon.
On one of my last runs in Karazhan, I went through and took a bunch of screenshots. That place was very impressive visually.
I also have taken many shots in WH Online. The Inevitable City is very beautiful - in an evil way.
While it's not really a big thing (except for the achievement.... zzzz) but I really enjoyed exploring in that game, back in the day.
--I just went through a huge emotional nostalgic moment just then, looking through old salvaged WoW screenshots... almost made me cry looking back on my raiding guild picture looking at a downed Hakkar--
...back on topic.
I think what games are missing now is "cool stuff that is hidden".
That's what exploration is all about, no?
So... if it were WoW... in a jungle, you could have, say, a random-spawning treasure chest (the sorta-crappy ones that maybe, at best, have a random blue BoE inside, and worst have alterac cheese and wildthorn), spawn in a CLEARING, that is HIDDEN behind TREES and FOLIAGE.
Ta-da, if you walk by, in an exploring fashion, you will find a treasure chest. Better yet, put a neutral creep in there that LOOKS COOL, and maybe even a COOL LOOKING STRUCTURE OR THING there. Then add in some ambient lighting coming through the trees.
Suddenly, exploring places doesn't seem like such a stupid, wasteful thing to do. Hell, make the neutral NPC a rare elite, now you're talkin'.
Now do that in like 15 places and make it an achievement!
And then we'll have guides up and running that show you all the places before you've even gone there and.....!
sigh... back to square one.
LOL. Damned internet! At least it would be there for those who don't search those sites - like me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
trust me!put as mutch reward in the world as say in instanced stuff make player chose between the 2(since you couldnt have both)and you ll be surprised how many will go world espacially with different skin for world reward.
so age isnt a factor reward is always a factor !want an exemple!why player go to onixia (new)days in days out simple because of the reward,if i recall they braugh he back from level 60 to lvl 80 when she was in he cave with the room full of eggs!
reward will make player go where ever you want .no mather how hold the look is!i doubt look as ever been a factor for wow since it always looked cartoony.player left vanilla world because blizzard left vanilla world and instance if they had supported both the fear was nobody would go in the instance!(they were probably right lol)but today i bet they could give player choice between the 2 and both would trive since they are completely different player .
Vanguard and Saga of Heroes is your game. Huge expanses to explore and even after they added teleporters, you still spend a lot of time traveling around.
.
The game was unpopular. There are rumors that it will shut down soon.
.
long travel times == unpopular game == loss of money for investors
Using misinformation to prove a point is bad.
Vanguard did have a big world and did have longer travel times, but that is not what caused the game to be unpopular.
It launched with bugs so bad that it crashed 2-3 times an hour and wiped all your character information when it did. I know because I played it on day one. So you'd play and level up and then crash and your character was back in the newbie area with no info on him. They got the 2-3 times an hour finally down to every couple hours but it still would wipe game information a lot.
That drove a huge portion of the original players off to never return again, it was not due to the large world in any way.
I think the day/night cycle for a lot of MMO's is something like 2-3 hrs? I recall, even Everquest (yes, that one) already had a day/night cycle, one where you even had a change of mobs for one zone, Kithicor Wood, that became infested with higher level skeleton mobs through the night. It was a choice between waiting at the start of the zone until it was dawn again to cross, or to take on the risky traveling and race through the zone while being chased by skeletons (wallhugging helped too). Very fun times
I agree it is extra work, but how much depends how you handle it. You don't have to have ALL your content changed of all your zones by season or weather changes, it can be certain hotspots. And it can be a combination of work by an artist for the details or finishing touches and procedural to generate the bulk of mob changes.
I forgot about that in EQ.
AC has the graveyard which also has different monsters during night and day. During the day it's fairly safe there. At night it becomes very dangerous. It's a fun dynamic.
trust me!put as mutch reward in the world as say in instanced stuff make player chose between the 2(since you couldnt have both)and you ll be surprised how many will go world espacially with different skin for world reward.
so age isnt a factor reward is always a factor !want an exemple!why player go to onixia (new)days in days out simple because of the reward,if i recall they braugh he back from level 60 to lvl 80 when she was in he cave with the room full of eggs!
reward will make player go where ever you want .no mather how hold the look is!i doubt look as ever been a factor for wow since it always looked cartoony.player left vanilla world because blizzard left vanilla world and instance if they had supported both the fear was nobody would go in the instance!(they were probably right lol)but today i bet they could give player choice between the 2 and both would trive since they are completely different player .
Wow I can't believe I read all that.
What's really funny is the % of the world that is instanced in WoW is quite low.
You can run and explore without loading screens and instances on 4 massive continents.
I just find this funny, compared to many newer games like AoC, WAR, or STO that are all instanced with load screens.
WoW, the great evil of MMORPG.com is actually more of an open world then most MMOs these days.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf Originally posted by uquipu What happened to exploration? . Vanguard and Saga of Heroes is your game. Huge expanses to explore and even after they added teleporters, you still spend a lot of time traveling around. . The game was unpopular. There are rumors that it will shut down soon. . long travel times == unpopular game == loss of money for investors
Using misinformation to prove a point is bad.
Vanguard did have a big world and did have longer travel times, but that is not what caused the game to be unpopular. It launched with bugs so bad that it crashed 2-3 times an hour and wiped all your character information when it did. I know because I played it on day one. So you'd play and level up and then crash and your character was back in the newbie area with no info on him. They got the 2-3 times an hour finally down to every couple hours but it still would wipe game information a lot.
That drove a huge portion of the original players off to never return again, it was not due to the large world in any way. . How do you know? . The tediously long travel times in Vanguard was one factor. Other factors like a harsh death penalty and lack of content like quests also played a part. . Most of those bugs have been fixed. Why does Vanguard's population still dwindle?
yes but its unused!lol because there is no benefit to it!this time around(cat)i ask blizzard to have instanced reward content and world reward content event to be equal ,yes it would need to be one OR the other but it would make everybody happy!
The tediously long travel times in Vanguard was one factor. Other factors like a harsh death penalty and lack of content like quests also played a part.
.
Most of those bugs have been fixed. Why does Vanguard's population still dwindle?
Nope. The immersive travel and consequential death penalties that encouraged players to play the game were not why Vanguard crahed and burned; it was in fact the horrible game-play plagued with bugs that drove masses away, never to return. It will now be nothing more than a death-bed niche.
I find it sad that no games anymore are catering towards the explorers out there. I love to just run around and discover things in the world. To find out whats behind the next turn in the road, explore the cave I see up in the mountainside.
The last game that did it, is Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Unfortunately its pretty much dead.
Is it over for us explorers? Do we have anything to look forward to in the future?
It's not over for the "true" fans of fantasy mmorpg's.. The "real" oldschool fans of the mmorpg fantasy genre are going to be blown away with the new MMORPG being developed by Curt Schilling's 38 Studios, along with R.A Salvatore and Todd Mcfarlene...
This MMORPG won't listen to the fake fps/mmo hybrid retarded gamers who don't enjoy working hard to achieve their goals, exploring vast distances to reach their destination, and harsh death penalties.. This is why current mmorpg's are failing, or have failed.. There's no character, nothine that truly defines new mmorpgs anymore.. Most mmo's that have come out the last 5 years are cookie cutting, eeezzzz mode rollercoaster rides that are over before it begins... This is what the illiterate, dumb moron fps/mmo hybrid gamers want.. They want their game to play similar to a FPS game where it's just a bunch of mindless pvp action or fast pve leveling to reach the top. They don't care about the world, the lore, the story, nothing that true fans of fantasy MMORPG's enjoy... The devs listened to the whinny, dumb, illiterate, fps/mmo hybrid gamers instead of the real fans of the fantasy genre and this is why WoW is still on top and mostly every other game that's come out since 2005 has failed.
Vanguard was supposed to be the next Everquest, but unfortunately Brad ran out of money, Microsoft wouldn't give anymore, and SOE barely gave them enough to get them through launch.. This is why the game was bad at launch.. It needed 6 more months of testing. I was a tester from phase 2.. We were all shocked Brad announced the launch date of the game, but we stood by it and played the game knowing eventually it would be fixed.. Then SOE took over and changed some core features that made VG unique... This is when we all left.. It's a real shame too..
Anyway, those who enjoy a difficult mmorpg similar to the original EQ, and who enjoy exploring, rich epic lore, questing, working hard to achieve their goals, feeling a sense of accomplishment after completing difficult tasks, and a deep, riveting, refreashing gameplay experience that literally makes you feel part of the online virtual world, stay tuned for more information regarding Curt Schilling's and R.A Salvatore's new MMORPG, referred to as Project Copernicus...
Comments
Indeed. I'd play that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
lol now a days it rarelly reach that point!they all say instance the shit out ofg this game and from astart to finish it will be ready very fast(a la aika,5 carbon copy of 1 map)lol
... or they can include it in their MMO, to create an edge compared to the same old same old other MMO's around, and use procedural programming to create changing hot areas.
Other MMO's seeing one other MMO being successful with just such a system, will follow as always happens... :-)
Aion and I think some other MMO's already have a night/day scheme for certain areas, btw, where the mobs available change.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The vocal "I want instant gratification; Travel times over 5 minutes is tedious; I must have fast travel or it isn't fun; I can't play more than an hour because my spouse berates me/Paris Hilton says it's not hot/Must watch reality TV' crowd killed it.
I loved running around Dereth (AC1) and finding places and dungeons and having the genuine feeling of "Man, I didn't know this was here! I wonder what it is or where it goes...". And Dereth was created as an open, spacy place that you could truly pick a direction and start running and that gave the developers the freedom to just plant new dungeons and points of interest out in the middle of nowhere for people to explore and find.
Now the above mentioned group demands to know every new place added and it must be accessible to them in their tiny playing time frame or else the baby rabbits start dying.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
True, but if you want to set yourself apart, you have to take chances. How are the 'me too' WoW-clones doing these days?
If you want to hit a home run, you have to swing hard.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Asheron's Call changes seasons, and up until the dreaded Throne of Destiny patch which broke certain things it had dynamic weather too. And it had this 11 years ago at launch. It's really not that much work to do something like that, just nobody seems to want to, plus I'm sure there's even better tech now to make the process easier then how AC did it way back in the day. They even change the wildlife that you can't interact with. For example it has butterflies during the spring and bats during the fall.
Changing mobs with the seasons is more work but still not bad. Most games have scene files or generators that get placed based on the texture/look of an area. Making extra versions wouldn't be that time consuming, and then swapping out the generators/files once every 4 months wouldn't be that much work either.
I don't think it's a process that has much cost to it, just more of a "we don't want to have to remember to do this every 4 months for the life of the game mentality".
I'm just saying it's one of those ideas that sound amazing on paper - but actually implementing it and getting it done for launch etc. are two entirely different things.
As a producer, I'd ask you a lot of questions.
"Ok, so how often do we switch from day to night? If it's too often then it'll be too unrealistic, but if it's more realistic then some player who play odd hours may never get to experience once side or the other, and that's not good."
"Ok, if we switch out mobs, do we then also have to switch all quests and rewards associated with the first mob type? That's going to take a lot of time and effort to rewrite quests and loot tables."
That kind of stuff. I am not saying it's a bad idea, I like the idea, but I've found over the years that most MMO players and CERTAINLY most forum posters want to have their cake AND eat it too without realizing the reality of things.
Procedual generation is great, I think this could be a big step in the right direction towards the future of all gaming not just MMOs...
But nothing can nor will ever beat the hands-on touch of a very skilled artist or designer. Computer generated content no matter how varied is still never going to have the same feel as something created by a living, breathing, creative mind.
I think that line of thought drives more aspects of MMO design, or should I say lack thereof, these days than it should.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
That's why I'm letting you know a game has done it and did so starting 11 years ago, it actually ISN'T tough to do. And they have day night cycles as well, and a changing sky that is sometimes cloudy sometimes not (which played into the weather system when they had it) and the clouds move across the sky.
I agree that a lot of players have expectations that are too high, but this one is very feasible.
yep i feel the same!half the fun is the journey gees!if they rewarded both equally at least lol that would be nice
(but they wont their instance would end up empty in a hurry i bet!)
To play the devil's advocate, there is a lot of exploration to do in WoW. Though except for Day/Night and weather patterns it's not a dynamic world. Most forget it because the game is 5+ years old and they don't feel like exploring it anymore.
Some zones used to have minor changes over the course of the day, such as sort of fish you can only catch at midnight, rare spawn patrols and so on. Though I don't think Blizzard intend to keep it in Cataclysm, as most of the dynamism of Northrend goes into their phasing technology bound to the player's questing progression.
Most game I've played had plenty of exploration to do. However, caverns, houses, or other notable features are likely to have a purpose... Because it goes down to cost/benefit.
often, I found myself taking screenshots in WoW.
While it's not really a big thing (except for the achievement.... zzzz) but I really enjoyed exploring in that game, back in the day.
--I just went through a huge emotional nostalgic moment just then, looking through old salvaged WoW screenshots... almost made me cry looking back on my raiding guild picture looking at a downed Hakkar--
...back on topic.
I think what games are missing now is "cool stuff that is hidden".
That's what exploration is all about, no?
So... if it were WoW... in a jungle, you could have, say, a random-spawning treasure chest (the sorta-crappy ones that maybe, at best, have a random blue BoE inside, and worst have alterac cheese and wildthorn), spawn in a CLEARING, that is HIDDEN behind TREES and FOLIAGE.
Ta-da, if you walk by, in an exploring fashion, you will find a treasure chest. Better yet, put a neutral creep in there that LOOKS COOL, and maybe even a COOL LOOKING STRUCTURE OR THING there. Then add in some ambient lighting coming through the trees.
Suddenly, exploring places doesn't seem like such a stupid, wasteful thing to do. Hell, make the neutral NPC a rare elite, now you're talkin'.
Now do that in like 15 places and make it an achievement!
And then we'll have guides up and running that show you all the places before you've even gone there and.....!
sigh... back to square one.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Pretty much dead. That is not a playstyle resonate with many. People goes to places like wowwiki to download all the map and stuff.
Exploration slows down progression and most people are playing to progress.
Plus, there is not enough resources to build a large enough, and interesting enough world to explore. You either have very big empty boring zones, or smaller but interseting zones.
What happened to exploration?
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Vanguard and Saga of Heroes is your game. Huge expanses to explore and even after they added teleporters, you still spend a lot of time traveling around.
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The game was unpopular. There are rumors that it will shut down soon.
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long travel times == unpopular game == loss of money for investors
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I think the day/night cycle for a lot of MMO's is something like 2-3 hrs? I recall, even Everquest (yes, that one) already had a day/night cycle, one where you even had a change of mobs for one zone, Kithicor Wood, that became infested with higher level skeleton mobs through the night. It was a choice between waiting at the start of the zone until it was dawn again to cross, or to take on the risky traveling and race through the zone while being chased by skeletons (wallhugging helped too). Very fun times
I agree it is extra work, but how much depends how you handle it. You don't have to have ALL your content changed of all your zones by season or weather changes, it can be certain hotspots. And it can be a combination of work by an artist for the details or finishing touches and procedural to generate the bulk of mob changes.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
True. Look past the themeparkish carnival games of eye-candy and pinata bashing for instant wins and entitlements to find some future gems; perhaps more sandboxy like Xsyon.
LOL. Damned internet! At least it would be there for those who don't search those sites - like me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
trust me!put as mutch reward in the world as say in instanced stuff make player chose between the 2(since you couldnt have both)and you ll be surprised how many will go world espacially with different skin for world reward.
so age isnt a factor reward is always a factor !want an exemple!why player go to onixia (new)days in days out simple because of the reward,if i recall they braugh he back from level 60 to lvl 80 when she was in he cave with the room full of eggs!
reward will make player go where ever you want .no mather how hold the look is!i doubt look as ever been a factor for wow since it always looked cartoony.player left vanilla world because blizzard left vanilla world and instance if they had supported both the fear was nobody would go in the instance!(they were probably right lol)but today i bet they could give player choice between the 2 and both would trive since they are completely different player .
Using misinformation to prove a point is bad.
Vanguard did have a big world and did have longer travel times, but that is not what caused the game to be unpopular.
It launched with bugs so bad that it crashed 2-3 times an hour and wiped all your character information when it did. I know because I played it on day one. So you'd play and level up and then crash and your character was back in the newbie area with no info on him. They got the 2-3 times an hour finally down to every couple hours but it still would wipe game information a lot.
That drove a huge portion of the original players off to never return again, it was not due to the large world in any way.
I forgot about that in EQ.
AC has the graveyard which also has different monsters during night and day. During the day it's fairly safe there. At night it becomes very dangerous. It's a fun dynamic.
Wow I can't believe I read all that.
What's really funny is the % of the world that is instanced in WoW is quite low.
You can run and explore without loading screens and instances on 4 massive continents.
I just find this funny, compared to many newer games like AoC, WAR, or STO that are all instanced with load screens.
WoW, the great evil of MMORPG.com is actually more of an open world then most MMOs these days.
Vanguard did have a big world and did have longer travel times, but that is not what caused the game to be unpopular.
It launched with bugs so bad that it crashed 2-3 times an hour and wiped all your character information when it did. I know because I played it on day one. So you'd play and level up and then crash and your character was back in the newbie area with no info on him. They got the 2-3 times an hour finally down to every couple hours but it still would wipe game information a lot.
That drove a huge portion of the original players off to never return again, it was not due to the large world in any way.
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How do you know?
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The tediously long travel times in Vanguard was one factor. Other factors like a harsh death penalty and lack of content like quests also played a part.
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Most of those bugs have been fixed. Why does Vanguard's population still dwindle?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
yes but its unused!lol because there is no benefit to it!this time around(cat)i ask blizzard to have instanced reward content and world reward content event to be equal ,yes it would need to be one OR the other but it would make everybody happy!
Nope. The immersive travel and consequential death penalties that encouraged players to play the game were not why Vanguard crahed and burned; it was in fact the horrible game-play plagued with bugs that drove masses away, never to return. It will now be nothing more than a death-bed niche.
It's not over for the "true" fans of fantasy mmorpg's.. The "real" oldschool fans of the mmorpg fantasy genre are going to be blown away with the new MMORPG being developed by Curt Schilling's 38 Studios, along with R.A Salvatore and Todd Mcfarlene...
This MMORPG won't listen to the fake fps/mmo hybrid retarded gamers who don't enjoy working hard to achieve their goals, exploring vast distances to reach their destination, and harsh death penalties.. This is why current mmorpg's are failing, or have failed.. There's no character, nothine that truly defines new mmorpgs anymore.. Most mmo's that have come out the last 5 years are cookie cutting, eeezzzz mode rollercoaster rides that are over before it begins... This is what the illiterate, dumb moron fps/mmo hybrid gamers want.. They want their game to play similar to a FPS game where it's just a bunch of mindless pvp action or fast pve leveling to reach the top. They don't care about the world, the lore, the story, nothing that true fans of fantasy MMORPG's enjoy... The devs listened to the whinny, dumb, illiterate, fps/mmo hybrid gamers instead of the real fans of the fantasy genre and this is why WoW is still on top and mostly every other game that's come out since 2005 has failed.
Vanguard was supposed to be the next Everquest, but unfortunately Brad ran out of money, Microsoft wouldn't give anymore, and SOE barely gave them enough to get them through launch.. This is why the game was bad at launch.. It needed 6 more months of testing. I was a tester from phase 2.. We were all shocked Brad announced the launch date of the game, but we stood by it and played the game knowing eventually it would be fixed.. Then SOE took over and changed some core features that made VG unique... This is when we all left.. It's a real shame too..
Anyway, those who enjoy a difficult mmorpg similar to the original EQ, and who enjoy exploring, rich epic lore, questing, working hard to achieve their goals, feeling a sense of accomplishment after completing difficult tasks, and a deep, riveting, refreashing gameplay experience that literally makes you feel part of the online virtual world, stay tuned for more information regarding Curt Schilling's and R.A Salvatore's new MMORPG, referred to as Project Copernicus...
http://www.38studios.com/products/copernicus
I believe this game will be the true successor to Everquest... Only time will tell
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)