I blame the spoonfed generation for the downfall of MMO industry.
[Mod Edit]
Because THAT'S an original and intriguing opinion to possess and share with us...
I blame the die-hards who can't get over the fact that their precious little genre has evolved and adapted to include new play styles and new type of gamers, both of which are a great thing because they have expanded the market and allowed for a massive increase in the number of games being developed and the availability of funding!
And to be honest there are about a half dozen "old school" games that have tried to go back to the "original" pre-evolved form of MMOs and they've all been low budget flops or straight up scams.
I truly do hope that one day they'll make an "old school" MMO for all you hold-outs and you'll love it and it'll be awesome and you'll never want to nor have to play another game again..
Maybe then you'll stop whining and trolling forums.
But until that day.. I'll look back fondly on the great times I had in UO and SWG at release... but I won't waste my time pining for things that will never return.
Oh, and lets not forget another established studio, Cryptic, that is the most recent contributor to the dumbification of mmo/mmorpg's when it comes to exploration. lol. An IP, Star Trek, based on exploration, and there is absolutely no exploration in that game.
I blame the spoonfed generation (WoW players) for the downfall of MMO industry.
Why? It wasn't WOW that started taking the world out of MMO's. They've only followed the trend of doing so in recent years. Secondly you have to realize there's nothing wrong with wanting games to cater to your playstyle (hell isn't that what you want?). WOW has the biggest playerbase, meaning they are the target of most studios.
Blame the devs for attempting to cater to the largest common denominator. The players who want instant action and little downtime. Which isn't exclusive to the WOW player, saying so shows true ignorance.
As has been pointed out within this thread, WOW has plenty of exploration within it. Making what you said a moot point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I would have thought that any open world game offers opportunites for exploring, it's up to you how you play the game. In WoW, I certainly did lots of exploring and infact its the only game I can think of that gave me xp for it, so I don't really agree that it should get any blame on this particular topic.
The problem for exploration however is that it will never be a core element of an MMOs design because it has so little replay value compared to other types content and gameplay. I think most people enjoy exploring to some extent but it's not going to keep anyone subscribing for month after month on it's own. Sadly, as the MMO formula gets ever more distilled, I think exploration is starting to get left out of the mix a little bit.
I would have thought that any open world game offers opportunites for exploring, it's up to you how you play the game. In WoW, I certainly did lots of exploring and infact its the only game I can think of that gave me xp for it, so I don't really agree that it should get any blame on this particular topic.
The problem for exploration however is that it will never be a core element of an MMOs design because it has so little replay value compared to other types content and gameplay. I think most people enjoy exploring to some extent but it's not going to keep anyone subscribing for month after month on it's own. Sadly, as the MMO formula gets ever more distilled, I think exploration is starting to get left out of the mix a little bit.
But what really can be done to counter this?
I agree with you 100% but what can be done?
Exploration is NOT travel. Let's make that clear.
Exploration is going somewhere you haven't been before.
Travel is simply.. well.. travel.
As you said exploration has little replay value since you can't rediscover the same thing twice...
Hell if anything, WoW is the LEADER in exploration as they are re-doing the majority of their game so people can explore the changed world all over again. haha
I blame the spoonfed generation (WoW players) for the downfall of MMO industry.
Because THAT'S an original and intriguing opinion to possess and share with us...
I blame the die-hards who can't get over the fact that their precious little genre has evolved and adapted to include new play styles and new type of gamers, both of which are a great thing because they have expanded the market and allowed for a massive increase in the number of games being developed and the availability of funding!
And to be honest there are about a half dozen "old school" games that have tried to go back to the "original" pre-evolved form of MMOs and they've all been low budget flops or straight up scams.
I truly do hope that one day they'll make an "old school" MMO for all you hold-outs and you'll love it and it'll be awesome and you'll never want to nor have to play another game again..
Maybe then you'll stop whining and trolling forums.
But until that day.. I'll look back fondly on the great times I had in UO and SWG at release... but I won't waste my time pining for things that will never return.
thats the main point lot of gamer try to make !it did NOT EVOLVE ,it took a mmo genre and replaced it with a mo and still branded it as mmo!thats the issue if they had kept what was in wow and evolved to include other stuff we wouldnt be having this thread we would probably all be in wow you in your instanced content and us in our world content everybody with their chosen playstyle everybody happy (and getting our respective chosen path reward)but nope it didnt happen like that.blizzard made sure to put candy only on where they wanted player to go and then blizzard hoped that every player that had a ball in original wow forget it ever happened and would just go where blizzard was putting the candy .i ask you where is our choice ,where am i asked by blizzard if i want to go in world content reward instead of instanced reward system.IT ISNT A CHOICE.go there and thats it! that what blizzard has to offer!probably why this tread is so popular!its not only blizzard i say blizzard but all game copied and pasted wow model in the offchance hope that they would get popular if at least they had copied and pasted original wow!
Okay, I just don't get why poeple have such a love/hate relationship with WoW. We were going toward the "less grind" game model long before WoW was released. DAoC, EQ, and AC have all been significantly altered to accomodate a wider audience of players. I'm no WoW fanboy, and in fact I stopped playing it and never will again for my own reasons. It's like Windows Mobile phone users bashing the iPhone. It's flawed logic, guys n' gals. The iPhone revolutionized the software and mobile device industry. It is a GOOD THING. It's created new streams of revenue, bolstered the economy, and created jobs. WoW has done a similar thing in the game industry. I for one am an old schooler and enjoyed the grind-y days of EQ and AC for whatever reason, I just enjoyed it. I don't have to explain that to anyone here. It's just me. But when WoW came along and gave us a true benchmark against which better games can be made, how is that a bad thing?
Sorry to jump off-topic. I'm thinking the exploration experience by the thread poster is why I enjoyed those old grind-fests. Why would I like that? I just do. Can't fully explain it. But I'm certainly not going to bash WoW players because they play something different from what I enjoy.
I blame the spoonfed generation (WoW players) for the downfall of MMO industry.
Hmmm,, well you have it half correct... See, at least half of the WoW gamers are true battlenet fans of FPS games. These same gamers are the reason why I don't play WoW. WoW is actually a pretty damn good game If you take out some of the eeezzz mode features and instanced dungeons..
So what have we learned? Half of WoW's population are the spoonfed, illiterate, hold me by the hand and wipe my nose type of fps gamers with no brains.. The devs have to cater to these fools to keep subs up and make trillions of dollars off them..
Now, the other half of the problem are todays DEV's... They want a piece of blizzards pie, so what do they do? Basically try to copy the same elements that help make WoW addicting and popular... Guess what? So far every similar WoW clone that's come out in the last 5 years has failed because of this...
MMO' don't need 10 million people playing to be successful.. 250,000-500,000 people are more than plenty... Devs should create a masterpiece epic unique game based on their own original ideas instead of copying WoW..
How can you even see other gamers from SO high up on your pedestal?
When I explored in older games seeing cool stuff was the reward.
Rewarding exploration for me is when you discover quests/items/new places through exploration. I don't want to have NPCs with exclamation marks over their heads who direct me to other NPCs with exclamation points over their heads.
I want to be running through the game world and see a fort off in the distance. When I run up to it I want to fight my way through and find perhaps an emprisoned person or a special chest.
I want to find a small town that isn't on the map.
I want to find a destroyed place that was clearly the scene of some previous large battle, I want to be able to figure out what happened there (the lore) and perhaps find a cool weapon that was buried beneath the carnage.
I want an interesting world that I HAVE to explore to find quests/items/xp and fun. Not one that starts me in a town and then leads me by the hand through visibly marked NPCs all the way to max level.
I'm also not saying every game should be this way, which is why I told the OP who seemed to enjoy the same style of things to stay away from the mainstream games. The majority want it as easy as can be and for it to require no thinking in any form, so that is what the mainstream games are made for.
You could just NOT pay attention to any of the NPC in WOW for example. You don't have to listen to what they have to say at all you know? You can just pick a direction and go, go, go. In other words, you hate NPCs leading you around, yet you couldn't figure out that you never had to do anything they offered? /wrists
I would have thought that any open world game offers opportunites for exploring, it's up to you how you play the game. In WoW, I certainly did lots of exploring and infact its the only game I can think of that gave me xp for it, so I don't really agree that it should get any blame on this particular topic.
The problem for exploration however is that it will never be a core element of an MMOs design because it has so little replay value compared to other types content and gameplay. I think most people enjoy exploring to some extent but it's not going to keep anyone subscribing for month after month on it's own. Sadly, as the MMO formula gets ever more distilled, I think exploration is starting to get left out of the mix a little bit.
IMO open world doesn't automatically mean exploration. Sure if it's scenery you're looking for, it may fill that void. To me exploration is about discovery, the best way to handle this is lore IMO. As I originally said in my initial post, the games that have done this the best have been the Elder Scrolls series (IMO).
A good example are the books containing clues as to where you may find a rare item. It's not a quest in the traditional sense, it's an adventure containing exploration as well as discovery. Giving that Indiana Jones feeling at least for me anyway. As an added bonus you get to learn a little more about the world and it's past inhabitants, which makes it even more rewarding.
I do agree it's just not something most MMO studios have the time or money to focus on, as it's not exactly something that keeps people playing for years. Which is key to MMO development.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
IMO open world doesn't automatically mean exploration. Sure if it's scenery you're looking for, it may fill that void. To me exploration is about discovery, the best way to handle this is lore IMO. As I originally said in my initial post, the games that have done this the best have been the Elder Scrolls series (IMO).
A good example are the books containing clues as to where you may find a rare item. It's not a quest in the traditional sense, it's an adventure containing exploration as well as discovery. Giving that Indiana Jones feeling at least for me anyway. As an added bonus you get to learn a little more about the world and it's past inhabitants, which makes it even more rewarding.
I do agree it's just not something most MMO studios have the time or money to focus on, as it's not exactly something that keeps people playing for years. Which is key to MMO development.
Quests can be an incredible way to learn the lore of an area, if the quests are done well.
I don't think anyone really likes the "kill 10 bears for their furs 'cause I'm cold!" quests because they offer no story, no lore...
But quests that take you into ancient ruins and help you discover what happened here and why the spirits of this place are angry...
You just have to read the text. That is exploration. That is discovery.
Granted, in general I'd say most quests follow the 10 bears example instead of the lore example, but that IS changing. Developers are focusing more on story and lore in the quest content, and less on repeatable grinds.
One good quest chain with a good story and lore is greater then twenty kill 10 bears quests.
IMO open world doesn't automatically mean exploration. Sure if it's scenery you're looking for, it may fill that void. To me exploration is about discovery, the best way to handle this is lore IMO. As I originally said in my initial post, the games that have done this the best have been the Elder Scrolls series (IMO).
A good example are the books containing clues as to where you may find a rare item. It's not a quest in the traditional sense, it's an adventure containing exploration as well as discovery. Giving that Indiana Jones feeling at least for me anyway. As an added bonus you get to learn a little more about the world and it's past inhabitants, which makes it even more rewarding.
I do agree it's just not something most MMO studios have the time or money to focus on, as it's not exactly something that keeps people playing for years. Which is key to MMO development.
Quests can be an incredible way to learn the lore of an area, if they quests are done well.
I don't think anyone really likes the "kill 10 bears for their furs 'cause I'm cold!" quests because they offer no story, no lore...
But quests that take you into ancient ruins and help you discover what happened here and why the spirits of this place are angry...
You just have to read the text. That is exploration. That is discovery.
Granted, in general I'd say most quests follow the 10 bears example instead of the lore example, but that IS changing. Developers are focusing more on story and lore in the quest content, and less on repeatable grinds.
One good quest chain with a good story and lore is greater then twenty kill 10 bears quests.
But they can put the 10 boars in beautiful and vast place, where you need to hunt for them and at the same time explore the unknown world. Do some crafting etc...
Problem with mmo nowadays is its freaking small, all instances! Part of the reason WoW is successful...
But they can put the 10 boars in beautiful and vast place, where you need to hunt for them and at the same time explore the unknown world. Do some crafting etc...
Problem with mmo nowadays is its freaking small, all instances! Part of the reason WoW is successful...
But, that would require me to focus on something besides the end-goal of killing the boars as fast as possible and leveling as fast as possible and not appreciating anything other then loot!
That's obviously IMPOSSIBLE to do in World of Warcraft because everyone on MMORPG.com says it is...
You could just NOT pay attention to any of the NPC in WOW for example. You don't have to listen to what they have to say at all you know? You can just pick a direction and go, go, go. In other words, you hate NPCs leading you around, yet you couldn't figure out that you never had to do anything they offered? /wrists
Reread what you just wrote, at least the first sentence anyway...
WOW is a quest based game, it is the epitome of Themepark design. The whole of the design is based on being led around by NPC's. Why would I play WOW if I do not like such a design? Personally I don't mind it, as I find both sandbox and Themepark designs to be fun to an extent. Still for those who do not, there's no reason to play WOW. As you're not getting what you pay for in such a case.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Reread what you just wrote, at least the first sentence anyway...
WOW is a quest based game, it is the epitome of Themepark design. The whole of the design is based on being led around by NPC's. Why would I play WOW if I do not like such a design? Personally I don't mind it, as I find both sandbox and Themepark designs to be fun to an extent. Still for those who do not, there's no reason to play WOW. As you're not getting what you pay for in such a case.
I dunno Mal, when leveling through Northrend for the first time when WotLK came out, even leveling through Outland when TBC came out, I was definitely exploring, even exploring while questing.
I never felt led around by the hand.
As with all things in life, a great deal of the truths we accept are determined by our point of view.
With the vast majority of games between 50k and 250k subscribers, some think that's a benchmark for success, when it's only really a benchmark for mediocrity from a consumers standpoint. Sure developers can 'feel' successful with 200k subscribers, but that didnt used to be the case with the chasing of 11million WoW, 4million Aion or 3 million Lineage numbers.
But back to the point. This is why the most established developers will have to settle for the mediocer subscribership values of 200k, because they dont even understand how to develop an expansive virtual world that is open to player-centric game-play and exploration.
Exploration is more than just 'exploring' for all you appologists out there that 'think' that walking from one end of a map to another constitutes exploration. You are silly, because it does not.
Exploration is the act of searching or traveling a terrain for the purpose of discovery of resources or information that contributes to greater knowledge, growth, development. All of which is provided as "hand-outs" to the low-expectation audience of mmo goers today, as opposed to having to be gamed, searched, explored or discovered for. Make the vocal minority actually have to 'game' for something that someone else can achieve with a time investement, that they dont feel as though they should have to challengingly game for and you end up with the easy and rudimentary game-play of the vast majority of those successful mmo's we're staring at.
You just have to read the text. That is exploration. That is discovery.
Having all the information spoon-fed to you via some text or brochure is tourism, not exploration.
I'd be very interested to hear how else you'd facilitate exploration and discovery in video game without using either text, voice, some kind of CG sequence, an in game event, or a combination of the before mentioned.
All of which, "spoon fed" to you by the game's interface.
You just have to read the text. That is exploration. That is discovery.
Having all the information spoon-fed to you via some text or brochure is tourism, not exploration.
Which makes me believe that LoTRO is more of an exploration-style game because even if you don't do quests, you can still get a crapload of achievements which often yield traits, and now with the skirmish system (albeit one-a-day) quests are not a necessity. But I tend to be more of a hybrid player. I like questing + exploration + a little crafting. LoTRO does it all for me. I'll be playing that unless something better comes out, or this small desire to go back to EVE gets the best of me...
You just have to read the text. That is exploration. That is discovery.
Having all the information spoon-fed to you via some text or brochure is tourism, not exploration.
I'd be very interested to hear how else you'd facilitate exploration and discovery in video game without using either text, voice, some kind of CG sequence, an in game event, or a combination of the before mentioned.
All of which, "spoon fed" to you by the game's interface.
You just have to read the text. That is exploration. That is discovery.
Having all the information spoon-fed to you via some text or brochure is tourism, not exploration.
I'd be very interested to hear how else you'd facilitate exploration and discovery in video game without using either text, voice, some kind of CG sequence, an in game event, or a combination of the before mentioned.
All of which, "spoon fed" to you by the game's interface.
Asheron's Call for example has forts you can just happen across and decide you are going to destroy the bad guys inside, you can find an item which doesn't tell you what it does. You think about it and use your knowledge of the game world to figure out where to take it or what to use it with and then you get the next leg. Sometimes this will be from using it in the right way/with the right item will pull you into a new place or open up a portal to travel through.
They have long chained quests like this with 6-7 parts all of which is figured out. Nothing in the least is spoon fed to you. In fact almost the entire world works in that faction. It's all about figuring things out and discovering things, not being led down a path and shown everything.
There is a huge difference in those types of gameplay.
I'd be very interested to hear how else you'd facilitate exploration and discovery in video game without using either text, voice, some kind of CG sequence, an in game event, or a combination of the before mentioned.
All of which, "spoon fed" to you by the game's interface.
Heh, I can't deny you have a point there...
insanex
I'm all about pushing the boundaries and trying new things... but what?
Games aren't idealogical pipe dreams. If they don't work, they don't play, they don't make money and they go offline. This is reality.
How in reality do you do exploration and discovery in a MMO?
I mean seriously?
*not dissing you insanex just continuing this thought process for discussion*
I propose a compromise, a large world for players to explore... . But, every so often they find a teleportport device, like several game miles apart. You can only use these devices after you have discovered them. And you can only teleport to devices you have discovered. . The first time through an area you explore. The second time through it's a commute. . This plan would emphasize exploring and reduce commuting.
krobend we had all those in wow ad more ,but some whinner complained it took too long so blizzard in their infinite wisdom booted a big chunk of that along with the massive,so now we all get to play a mo instead of a mmo!
Asheron's Call for example has forts you can just happen across and decide you are going to destroy the bad guys inside, you can find an item which doesn't tell you what it does. You think about it and use your knowledge of the game world to figure out where to take it or what to use it with and then you get the next leg. Sometimes this will be from using it in the right way/with the right item will pull you into a new place or open up a portal to travel through.
They have long chained quests like this with 6-7 parts all of which is figured out. Nothing in the least is spoon fed to you. In fact almost the entire world works in that faction. It's all about figuring things out and discovering things, not being led down a path and shown everything.
There is a huge difference in those types of gameplay.
I specifically remember a few items in WoW that were exactly like this.
Random drops in random location that didn't give you a quest, or gave you a quest that you had to figure out what to do there was no "go to this person in this location."
Most people cheated and looked them up online or asked their guildies.
Comments
Because THAT'S an original and intriguing opinion to possess and share with us...
I blame the die-hards who can't get over the fact that their precious little genre has evolved and adapted to include new play styles and new type of gamers, both of which are a great thing because they have expanded the market and allowed for a massive increase in the number of games being developed and the availability of funding!
And to be honest there are about a half dozen "old school" games that have tried to go back to the "original" pre-evolved form of MMOs and they've all been low budget flops or straight up scams.
I truly do hope that one day they'll make an "old school" MMO for all you hold-outs and you'll love it and it'll be awesome and you'll never want to nor have to play another game again..
Maybe then you'll stop whining and trolling forums.
But until that day.. I'll look back fondly on the great times I had in UO and SWG at release... but I won't waste my time pining for things that will never return.
Oh, and lets not forget another established studio, Cryptic, that is the most recent contributor to the dumbification of mmo/mmorpg's when it comes to exploration. lol. An IP, Star Trek, based on exploration, and there is absolutely no exploration in that game.
Why? It wasn't WOW that started taking the world out of MMO's. They've only followed the trend of doing so in recent years. Secondly you have to realize there's nothing wrong with wanting games to cater to your playstyle (hell isn't that what you want?). WOW has the biggest playerbase, meaning they are the target of most studios.
Blame the devs for attempting to cater to the largest common denominator. The players who want instant action and little downtime. Which isn't exclusive to the WOW player, saying so shows true ignorance.
As has been pointed out within this thread, WOW has plenty of exploration within it. Making what you said a moot point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I would have thought that any open world game offers opportunites for exploring, it's up to you how you play the game. In WoW, I certainly did lots of exploring and infact its the only game I can think of that gave me xp for it, so I don't really agree that it should get any blame on this particular topic.
The problem for exploration however is that it will never be a core element of an MMOs design because it has so little replay value compared to other types content and gameplay. I think most people enjoy exploring to some extent but it's not going to keep anyone subscribing for month after month on it's own. Sadly, as the MMO formula gets ever more distilled, I think exploration is starting to get left out of the mix a little bit.
But what really can be done to counter this?
I agree with you 100% but what can be done?
Exploration is NOT travel. Let's make that clear.
Exploration is going somewhere you haven't been before.
Travel is simply.. well.. travel.
As you said exploration has little replay value since you can't rediscover the same thing twice...
Hell if anything, WoW is the LEADER in exploration as they are re-doing the majority of their game so people can explore the changed world all over again. haha
thats the main point lot of gamer try to make !it did NOT EVOLVE ,it took a mmo genre and replaced it with a mo and still branded it as mmo!thats the issue if they had kept what was in wow and evolved to include other stuff we wouldnt be having this thread we would probably all be in wow you in your instanced content and us in our world content everybody with their chosen playstyle everybody happy (and getting our respective chosen path reward)but nope it didnt happen like that.blizzard made sure to put candy only on where they wanted player to go and then blizzard hoped that every player that had a ball in original wow forget it ever happened and would just go where blizzard was putting the candy .i ask you where is our choice ,where am i asked by blizzard if i want to go in world content reward instead of instanced reward system.IT ISNT A CHOICE.go there and thats it! that what blizzard has to offer!probably why this tread is so popular!its not only blizzard i say blizzard but all game copied and pasted wow model in the offchance hope that they would get popular if at least they had copied and pasted original wow!
Okay, I just don't get why poeple have such a love/hate relationship with WoW. We were going toward the "less grind" game model long before WoW was released. DAoC, EQ, and AC have all been significantly altered to accomodate a wider audience of players. I'm no WoW fanboy, and in fact I stopped playing it and never will again for my own reasons. It's like Windows Mobile phone users bashing the iPhone. It's flawed logic, guys n' gals. The iPhone revolutionized the software and mobile device industry. It is a GOOD THING. It's created new streams of revenue, bolstered the economy, and created jobs. WoW has done a similar thing in the game industry. I for one am an old schooler and enjoyed the grind-y days of EQ and AC for whatever reason, I just enjoyed it. I don't have to explain that to anyone here. It's just me. But when WoW came along and gave us a true benchmark against which better games can be made, how is that a bad thing?
Sorry to jump off-topic. I'm thinking the exploration experience by the thread poster is why I enjoyed those old grind-fests. Why would I like that? I just do. Can't fully explain it. But I'm certainly not going to bash WoW players because they play something different from what I enjoy.
insanex
How can you even see other gamers from SO high up on your pedestal?
You could just NOT pay attention to any of the NPC in WOW for example. You don't have to listen to what they have to say at all you know? You can just pick a direction and go, go, go. In other words, you hate NPCs leading you around, yet you couldn't figure out that you never had to do anything they offered? /wrists
IMO open world doesn't automatically mean exploration. Sure if it's scenery you're looking for, it may fill that void. To me exploration is about discovery, the best way to handle this is lore IMO. As I originally said in my initial post, the games that have done this the best have been the Elder Scrolls series (IMO).
A good example are the books containing clues as to where you may find a rare item. It's not a quest in the traditional sense, it's an adventure containing exploration as well as discovery. Giving that Indiana Jones feeling at least for me anyway. As an added bonus you get to learn a little more about the world and it's past inhabitants, which makes it even more rewarding.
I do agree it's just not something most MMO studios have the time or money to focus on, as it's not exactly something that keeps people playing for years. Which is key to MMO development.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Quests can be an incredible way to learn the lore of an area, if the quests are done well.
I don't think anyone really likes the "kill 10 bears for their furs 'cause I'm cold!" quests because they offer no story, no lore...
But quests that take you into ancient ruins and help you discover what happened here and why the spirits of this place are angry...
You just have to read the text. That is exploration. That is discovery.
Granted, in general I'd say most quests follow the 10 bears example instead of the lore example, but that IS changing. Developers are focusing more on story and lore in the quest content, and less on repeatable grinds.
One good quest chain with a good story and lore is greater then twenty kill 10 bears quests.
But they can put the 10 boars in beautiful and vast place, where you need to hunt for them and at the same time explore the unknown world. Do some crafting etc...
Problem with mmo nowadays is its freaking small, all instances! Part of the reason WoW is successful...
RIP Orc Choppa
But, that would require me to focus on something besides the end-goal of killing the boars as fast as possible and leveling as fast as possible and not appreciating anything other then loot!
That's obviously IMPOSSIBLE to do in World of Warcraft because everyone on MMORPG.com says it is...
Reread what you just wrote, at least the first sentence anyway...
WOW is a quest based game, it is the epitome of Themepark design. The whole of the design is based on being led around by NPC's. Why would I play WOW if I do not like such a design? Personally I don't mind it, as I find both sandbox and Themepark designs to be fun to an extent. Still for those who do not, there's no reason to play WOW. As you're not getting what you pay for in such a case.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Having all the information spoon-fed to you via some text or brochure is tourism, not exploration.
I dunno Mal, when leveling through Northrend for the first time when WotLK came out, even leveling through Outland when TBC came out, I was definitely exploring, even exploring while questing.
I never felt led around by the hand.
As with all things in life, a great deal of the truths we accept are determined by our point of view.
With the vast majority of games between 50k and 250k subscribers, some think that's a benchmark for success, when it's only really a benchmark for mediocrity from a consumers standpoint. Sure developers can 'feel' successful with 200k subscribers, but that didnt used to be the case with the chasing of 11million WoW, 4million Aion or 3 million Lineage numbers.
But back to the point. This is why the most established developers will have to settle for the mediocer subscribership values of 200k, because they dont even understand how to develop an expansive virtual world that is open to player-centric game-play and exploration.
Exploration is more than just 'exploring' for all you appologists out there that 'think' that walking from one end of a map to another constitutes exploration. You are silly, because it does not.
Exploration is the act of searching or traveling a terrain for the purpose of discovery of resources or information that contributes to greater knowledge, growth, development. All of which is provided as "hand-outs" to the low-expectation audience of mmo goers today, as opposed to having to be gamed, searched, explored or discovered for. Make the vocal minority actually have to 'game' for something that someone else can achieve with a time investement, that they dont feel as though they should have to challengingly game for and you end up with the easy and rudimentary game-play of the vast majority of those successful mmo's we're staring at.
I'd be very interested to hear how else you'd facilitate exploration and discovery in video game without using either text, voice, some kind of CG sequence, an in game event, or a combination of the before mentioned.
All of which, "spoon fed" to you by the game's interface.
Which makes me believe that LoTRO is more of an exploration-style game because even if you don't do quests, you can still get a crapload of achievements which often yield traits, and now with the skirmish system (albeit one-a-day) quests are not a necessity. But I tend to be more of a hybrid player. I like questing + exploration + a little crafting. LoTRO does it all for me. I'll be playing that unless something better comes out, or this small desire to go back to EVE gets the best of me...
insanex
Heh, I can't deny you have a point there...
insanex
Asheron's Call for example has forts you can just happen across and decide you are going to destroy the bad guys inside, you can find an item which doesn't tell you what it does. You think about it and use your knowledge of the game world to figure out where to take it or what to use it with and then you get the next leg. Sometimes this will be from using it in the right way/with the right item will pull you into a new place or open up a portal to travel through.
They have long chained quests like this with 6-7 parts all of which is figured out. Nothing in the least is spoon fed to you. In fact almost the entire world works in that faction. It's all about figuring things out and discovering things, not being led down a path and shown everything.
There is a huge difference in those types of gameplay.
[Mod Edit]
I'm all about pushing the boundaries and trying new things... but what?
Games aren't idealogical pipe dreams. If they don't work, they don't play, they don't make money and they go offline. This is reality.
How in reality do you do exploration and discovery in a MMO?
I mean seriously?
*not dissing you insanex just continuing this thought process for discussion*
I propose a compromise, a large world for players to explore...
.
But, every so often they find a teleportport device, like several game miles apart. You can only use these devices after you have discovered them. And you can only teleport to devices you have discovered.
.
The first time through an area you explore. The second time through it's a commute.
.
This plan would emphasize exploring and reduce commuting.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
krobend we had all those in wow ad more ,but some whinner complained it took too long so blizzard in their infinite wisdom booted a big chunk of that along with the massive,so now we all get to play a mo instead of a mmo!
I specifically remember a few items in WoW that were exactly like this.
Random drops in random location that didn't give you a quest, or gave you a quest that you had to figure out what to do there was no "go to this person in this location."
Most people cheated and looked them up online or asked their guildies.
That was their own fault, not WoW's.