Lets take it huge population aside, you have to look at the big picture here.
The Blizzard which created Vanilla Wow is dead, most Wow developers left after Vivendi took over. The former topguys such as Tigole and Pardo stayed but moved on to other Blizzard projects in the past. Why? Simple Blizzard has gone from an artist company (which isn't always about the most money) to a greedy Activision relationsship
Uhhh.... Blizzard, an artist company? The game company that has never taken a single risk, or done any big innovation?
An MMO was a risk for Blizzard, they never made an MMO before, the MMO genre was still small at the time, they were a small developer sinking all the money they had into WoW, vivendi was even looking to sell blizzard around the time. Two big games Starcraft ghost and WC adventures were cancelled even though they were around 90% complete and being shown off at E3 etc.. blizzard have taken more risks than most.
As for innovation, how about Battle.net? They were one of the first to support mods, one of the first to add RPG elements to RTS games.
This Blizzard hate has to stop. They are a developer creating games people want to play, and if they do that better than other devs then so be it.
Lets ignore their other titles. But WoW here... an artsy game?
The same WoW that mainstreamed the MMO genre. The same game that was so dumbed down just about ANYONE could pick it up? The same game that is basically a simple version of EverQuest?
And millions love it.. whats your point? BTW most of the elements in WoW were in Diablo, a game released before EQ. ahem.
WoW never innovated. It never had soul. It was simply designed for mass market appeal and nothing else. All those saying WoW is "casual" now have been blinded. Because thats what WoW always has been.
And we love it!
And for the last time as many still seem ill-informed, Activision does not own or control Blizzard, Activision-Blizzard (Vivendi) owns Blizzard and Activision, they are two different companies under the holding company called Activision-Blizzard which is run by Viviendi. ACTIVISION HAS NO SAY IN BLIZZARDS AFFAIRS, that is why you do not and will not see ACTIVISION printed on any WoW boxes or on websites or ingame splash screens. And why do dont see the same on Activision products.
Originally posted by DerWotan Lets take it huge population aside, you have to look at the big picture here. The Blizzard which created Vanilla Wow is dead, most Wow developers left after Vivendi took over. The former topguys such as Tigole and Pardo stayed but moved on to other Blizzard projects in the past. Why? Simple Blizzard has gone from an artist company (which isn't always about the most money) to a greedy Activision relationsship
Uhhh.... Blizzard, an artist company? The game company that has never taken a single risk, or done any big innovation? An MMO was a risk for Blizzard, they never made an MMO before, the MMO genre was still small at the time, they were a small developer sinking all the money they had into WoW, vivendi was even looking to sell blizzard around the time. Two big games Starcraft ghost and WC adventures were cancelled even though they were around 90% complete and being shown off at E3 etc.. blizzard have taken more risks than most. As for innovation, how about Battle.net? They were one of the first to support mods, one of the first to add RPG elements to RTS games. This Blizzard hate has to stop. They are a developer creating games people want to play, and if they do that better than other devs then so be it. Lets ignore their other titles. But WoW here... an artsy game? The same WoW that mainstreamed the MMO genre. The same game that was so dumbed down just about ANYONE could pick it up? The same game that is basically a simple version of EverQuest? And millions love it.. whats your point? BTW most of the elements in WoW were in Diablo, a game released before EQ. ahem. WoW never innovated. It never had soul. It was simply designed for mass market appeal and nothing else. All those saying WoW is "casual" now have been blinded. Because thats what WoW always has been. And we love it!
You are remembering a Blizzard that no longer exists as a company. Most of the people have left, and the ones that are still there have no control any more. Blizzard was the best game developer out there, but it does not exist now.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I know there are those gems like UO that are still up and running,
though their subscription base is but a tiny portion of what it once was.
Blizzard is doing something extremely intelligent with their game--
they are making it more accessible, adapting the play-style (according to other releases),
and they are improving the foundation of the game (Graphics and Client).
On top of the growing MMO market in the first-world countries,
as developing countries gain more technology-- there is a higher chance that WoW will become
their first MMORPG due to the extensive advertising that Blizzard is known for.
More casual = more customers
It's not just UO. EQ, AC, DAoC are all still running. Even The Realm is still running (my first MMO when it was basically all that existed). The games which started the genre are all still around. It was the MMOs in the next wave that have died out.
Will WoW be the longest running? It's tough to say they are a good 5 years behind the legends.
Their next MMO, although they've said it will be much different then WoW, will most definetly pull a large percentage of WoW players away.
WoW hasn't posted it's numbers in a while now which means it is shrinking finally. It still has a good 8-10 million cushion which certainly could last another 10 years. But the market is being filled more each year. More and more MMOs come in, all with different playstyles, settings, and levels of complexities.
So WoW could be around when UO/AC/EQ close down, but will it last long enough to be the longest running? One reason UO/AC/EQ lasted so long was the market was much different back then and there weren't a lot of MMO options until recently. So in 5 years imagine how many MMOs players can choose from. I don't know if an MMO will ever last as long as the original big 3 again.
But there is Counter Strike which has outlasted just about every other FPS even with the market flooded with FPS games. So it is certainly possible.
Lets take it huge population aside, you have to look at the big picture here.
The Blizzard which created Vanilla Wow is dead, most Wow developers left after Vivendi took over. The former topguys such as Tigole and Pardo stayed but moved on to other Blizzard projects in the past. Why? Simple Blizzard has gone from an artist company (which isn't always about the most money) to a greedy Activision relationsship
Uhhh.... Blizzard, an artist company? The game company that has never taken a single risk, or done any big innovation?
An MMO was a risk for Blizzard, they never made an MMO before, the MMO genre was still small at the time, they were a small developer sinking all the money they had into WoW, vivendi was even looking to sell blizzard around the time. Two big games Starcraft ghost and WC adventures were cancelled even though they were around 90% complete and being shown off at E3 etc.. blizzard have taken more risks than most.
As for innovation, how about Battle.net? They were one of the first to support mods, one of the first to add RPG elements to RTS games.
This Blizzard hate has to stop. They are a developer creating games people want to play, and if they do that better than other devs then so be it.
Lets ignore their other titles. But WoW here... an artsy game?
The same WoW that mainstreamed the MMO genre. The same game that was so dumbed down just about ANYONE could pick it up? The same game that is basically a simple version of EverQuest?
And millions love it.. whats your point? BTW most of the elements in WoW were in Diablo, a game released before EQ. ahem.
WoW never innovated. It never had soul. It was simply designed for mass market appeal and nothing else. All those saying WoW is "casual" now have been blinded. Because thats what WoW always has been.
And we love it!
You are remembering a Blizzard that no longer exists as a company. Most of the people have left, and the ones that are still there have no control any more. Blizzard was the best game developer out there, but it does not exist now.
The only ones that have left are some contracted programs and artists the main team and founders are still there, Chris Metzen, Michael Morhaime, Rob Pardo and Frank Pearce, sure some of the more full time team would of left to continue their careers but that natural I no longer work in factory making CD's. Do you think the same people who made EQ1 made EQ2? the same people who made Supermario made Mario64? The same people who made GTA1 made GTA4?
Control of blizzard is still in the hands of the guys I mentioned, Activision do not own blizzard, blizzard has been owned by Vivendi and still are.
I think some guys left and made hellgate london.. yeah they were the cream of blizzard. the game bombed.
And for the last time as many still seem ill-informed, Activision does not own or control Blizzard, Activision-Blizzard (Vivendi) owns Blizzard and Activision, they are two different companies under the holding company called Activision-Blizzard which is run by Viviendi. ACTIVISION HAS NO SAY IN BLIZZARDS AFFAIRS, that is why you do not and will not see ACTIVISION printed on any WoW boxes or on websites or ingame splash screens. And why do dont see the same on Activision products.
"In December 2007, Activision announced that the company and its assets would merge with fellow games developer and publisher, Vivendi Games. René Penisson, formerly a member of the Management Board of Vivendi and Chairman of Vivendi Games, would serve as Chairman of Activision Blizzard. Bobby Kotick, once head of Activision, was announced to become President and CEO of Activision Blizzard."
And about Bobby Kotick, these are some of the things he said before he got slapped down:
" In responding to why Activision Blizzard chose not to publish certain games following the Activision/Blizzard merger, he stated that focusing on franchises that "have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises" has "worked very well for [Activision Blizzard]" "
" During Activision Blizzard's Q2 2009 financial results conference, Kotick was challenged over his "comfort level" around high prices attached to "new games that have some expensive controllers" (presumably the Guitar Hero, Tony Hawk and DJ Hero franchises), and said, "If it was left to me, I would raise the prices even further. "
" During a speech at the 2009 Deutsche Bank Securities Technology Conference, Kotick received significant criticism from enthusiasts and the media for stating, "We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games." Kotick later stated he tries to promote an atmosphere of "skepticism, pessimism, and fear" in his company and, "We are very good at keeping people focused on the deep depression." "
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do you think the same people who made EQ1 made EQ2?
No, I don't think so, and it absolutely shows.
Control of blizzard is still in the hands of the guys I mentioned, Activision do not own blizzard, blizzard has been owned by Vivendi and still are. See other post. Besides, Vivendi wasn't that much better. A lot of the Blizzard guys left in conflict with Vivendi, because of the course Vivendi wanted to take.
I think some guys left and made hellgate london.. yeah they were the cream of blizzard. the game bombed.
Oh, you forget ArenaNet, that was founded by Blizzard people leaving. They were joined by others who left Blizzard on a later date.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
And for the last time as many still seem ill-informed, Activision does not own or control Blizzard, Activision-Blizzard (Vivendi) owns Blizzard and Activision, they are two different companies under the holding company called Activision-Blizzard which is run by Viviendi. ACTIVISION HAS NO SAY IN BLIZZARDS AFFAIRS, that is why you do not and will not see ACTIVISION printed on any WoW boxes or on websites or ingame splash screens. And why do dont see the same on Activision products.
"In December 2007, Activision announced that the company and its assets would merge with fellow games developer and publisher, Vivendi Games. René Penisson, formerly a member of the Management Board of Vivendi and Chairman of Vivendi Games, would serve as Chairman of Activision Blizzard. Bobby Kotick, once head of Activision, was announced to become President and CEO of Activision Blizzard."
And about Bobby Kotick, these are some of the things he said before he got slapped down:
" In responding to why Activision Blizzard chose not to publish certain games following the Activision/Blizzard merger, he stated that focusing on franchises that "have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises" has "worked very well for [Activision Blizzard]" "
" During Activision Blizzard's Q2 2009 financial results conference, Kotick was challenged over his "comfort level" around high prices attached to "new games that have some expensive controllers" (presumably the Guitar Hero, Tony Hawk and DJ Hero franchises), and said, "If it was left to me, I would raise the prices even further. "
" During a speech at the 2009 Deutsche Bank Securities Technology Conference, Kotick received significant criticism from enthusiasts and the media for stating, "We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games." Kotick later stated he tries to promote an atmosphere of "skepticism, pessimism, and fear" in his company and, "We are very good at keeping people focused on the deep depression." "
There you go.
Of course, think of what it what you like.
Activision announced that the company and its assets would merge with fellow games developer and publisher, Vivendi Games....
Merge....not buy out. Blizzard retains 51% stockholdings in its own company. Meaning it still controls its own house, but works with Activision under their umbrella. Kotick speaks for Activision and Blizzard, but as with any CEO if the board of directors turns on him he is done. Activision can not force Blizzard to do anything with Blizzard keeping 51% control. They can only offer incentives and convince Blizzard to do something.
And about another issue raised earlier, how the publishing works:
"The holding company [Activision Blizzard] does not publish games under its central name and instead uses its subsidiaries to publish games, similar to how Vivendi Games operated before the merger.[12] The merger makes Activision parent company of Vivendi Games former divisions."
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Actually, its one game and 2 expansions. But dont let little things like facts get in your way, you go right ahead and spread your lies.
Except the first game is equal to 1/3 of previous games in the craft series...but hey, lets not let little things like facts get in your way. you go right ahead and spread your half-truths. They had already made all three "parts" of the full game, and just decided to market them one after the other this time instead of making expansions after finishing the first game. Very Activision-ish, yeah I'm talking about you, COD map packs.
Actually, its one game and 2 expansions. But dont let little things like facts get in your way, you go right ahead and spread your lies.
Well they are actually Stand Alone titles as well. Each title will be its own game (own story, own missions).
So no matter what Blizzard wants you to believe, its a scheme to get more money from the players as all three games could be presented in 1 package. This scheme just took the one game and broke it up three ways to maximize profits.
So technically he isnt 'spreading lies' as even if they are 'expansions' you are still going to pay $150 for one game, specially if you want to play the different factions campaigns...
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I know there are those gems like UO that are still up and running,
though their subscription base is but a tiny portion of what it once was.
Blizzard is doing something extremely intelligent with their game--
Not quite, cemosabe. Runescape just might snatch that crown. A game rising through the ashes since 2000 to maintaining at least a million sub base; sustaniing in that million range has been quite a feat. Not one game has accomoplished that for as long, though WoW with their heavy investment in advertising and promotion is not going away any time soon.
So when talknig about the accomplishment around this topic in our-time, its Runescape today, not WoW quite yet.
isnt asheron and uo still going i dont see them dieng soon and they must be 1- years old by now i see wow dieng after cataclysm when wow anounces its new mmo and all the next gen mmos come out including tior
Originally posted by cyphers Originally posted by expresso
Do you think the same people who made EQ1 made EQ2? No, I don't think so, and it absolutely shows. Control of blizzard is still in the hands of the guys I mentioned, Activision do not own blizzard, blizzard has been owned by Vivendi and still are. See other post. Besides, Vivendi wasn't that much better. A lot of the Blizzard guys left in conflict with Vivendi, because of the course Vivendi wanted to take. I think some guys left and made hellgate london.. yeah they were the cream of blizzard. the game bombed. Oh, you forget ArenaNet, that was founded by Blizzard people leaving. They were joined by others who left Blizzard on a later date.
Expresso, here of course I would like to reiterate what Cyphers has said.
The people that left Blizzard were the ones with the ideas and the talent. The management stayed because they made money with the merge with Activision. Blizzard still controls itself in one sense, in that they are just part of a holding company with Activision, but Vivendi owns something like 54% of the stock of that holding company. Ultimately, the control comes from there. Of course, Kotick is in charge for all practical purposes. And that is why so many people left Blizzard, because the company sold out.
I am sorry if this economics stuff is too complicated for you, but the simple version is that because of these changes to the corporate structure (big changes), the people that were in charge of designing Warcraft, Diablo, Warcraft II, Starcraft, Diablo II, Warcraft III, and World of Warcraft all left. The people that came up with all the basic mechanics for some of the best games ever left, and it shows. Look at the direction WoW has taken in the expansions and updates. It has been almost a 180 degree turnaround in philosophy. Of course, I won't argue that the hardcore 40 man raids were a good idea, but they were part of an older conception of what a MMORPG should be.
The closest thing we have now to the design and business philosophy of Blizzard of old now is ArenaNet.
I am sorry, but this is all the objective truth. The people that made the games that made Blizzard famous no longer work there. The core philosophy has changed because of the management of Kotick (just look at hte post with some of his quotes in it, he is a real charmer). Everything about the company is different save the name.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Originally posted by Cavall Originally posted by Xiaoki
Originally posted by Cavall So..150 dollars for ONE GAME split into 3?
Actually, its one game and 2 expansions. But dont let little things like facts get in your way, you go right ahead and spread your lies. Except the first game is equal to 1/3 of previous games in the craft series...but hey, lets not let little things like facts get in your way. you go right ahead and spread your half-truths. They had already made all three "parts" of the full game, and just decided to market them one after the other this time instead of making expansions after finishing the first game. Very Activision-ish, yeah I'm talking about you, COD map packs. Spreading more lies I see.
Blizzard has said that each race's campaign in Sratcraft 2 will be between 26 and 30 missions, the Terrans are rumored to have 28 total missions. Starcraft 1 had a combined total of 30 missions.
All 3 parts are already finished? Yeah, how about a link to that. If you cant provide a link this will be yet another lie from you.
Arena net was founded in 2000 and has made 1 game in all this time, games released by blizzard since then are WC3 & WoW both games have won multiple awards, millions of sales.. and then we have SC2 just 8 weeks away from release. no talent lost there.
Flag ship games founded in 2003 when a bunch left due to the vivendi buyout, they left as they thought Blizzard was doomed, well lets see what these guys have done, Hellgate london and Mythos, yep no talent lost there also.
And I'll say again Activision does not own or control blizzard.
And in regards to SC2, the first game will have 30 missions, you'll need to complete 26 of them to complete the game. All 3 races in multiplayer. Blizzard have admitted the other 2 games are very early in development the biggest issue is the story mode space, they cannot simply have kerigan walking around an overmind or zeratul walking around a nexus.. the story mode space will be very different for each game.
We are not getting 1/3 of a game, its like saying we got 1/4 of a game when comparing DOW1 and DOW2.
99% of those people still very much work with Blizzard. A few people died.
A quick overview on Wikipedia shows the rest of the story.
It is sad people want to break up the legendary orginal designers by spreading lies.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Activision does not control Blizzard. Vivendi does. We have no way of knowing how tight the reins are, but we do know that Kotick is now very much in charge, and he was not in charge before. That much at least should be obvious even to you.
The people at ArenaNet were key in the production of all the games that gave Blizzard its fame, and even the very famous Battle.net system. Those previous games are the cause of one of the reasons WoW was so big. It brought people that would never have played a MMO otherwise, and that large population brought more. It is the same critical mass you can see in bestseller novels that may not be that good.
The people from Flagship were key in the development of the Diablo games and the RTS games, as well as WoW. (Bobbadud, the reason they are not in the credits should be obvious, but that does not mean they were not very much a part of the design of gameplay and story.) They were the people working on Diablo at Blizzard North (Condor before Blizzard bought them for creative control), and have been key in the content and storytelling design of all the subsequent games. Why do you think the lore in WoW is so very different from that in the RTS games (I am not really counting as much the first two Warcraft games. It is interesting because you can see what great games they were, but how they had very thin and poorly designed story, and in Warcraft III, much of that was redesigned. Note now how different the WoW story and the general lore concepts in the Vanilla versus the expansions. The difference is pretty stark.) Flagship did fail with Hellgate, but I do not think it was from a lack of talent. I believe it had to do with the core design being incompatible with their MMO concepts, as well as just not having enough money. They are not making the same mistake with Torchlight and Runic games, and if you have played Torchlight, it is pretty obvious that the minds behind Diablo were behind it. If you do not think Bill Roper had a hand in the direction of WoW after being very important in most of Blizzard's other games, then I cannot help you.
The people left Blizzard because they wanted to be creative, and to take risks. Those risks will not always pay off, which is why large investors do not want to take them. It is a sad truth, but people want to play it safe with their money. I know I do.
I do not want to "break up the legendary designers." The team already broke up. And those that are left are not in control.
I used to think this was all common knowledge, back in 2003 after all the problems and the people leaving. I figured that people that cared about a company and their games would know simple things about who was in charge of their production. The game is really the people behind it, and not the name of the company.
Edit:
I wanted to add something for Expresso, (which, as an aside, is not how the drink is spelled, so I would be curious what the allusion is to). You say some of the main and best ideas in WoW were in the Diablo games, but you do not seem to realise that the people that made the Diablo games, and designed the original version of WoW, were the Blizzard North people, the same people that made Hellgate and now Torchlight. You do not seem to think much of those people, even sarcastically calling them the cream of the crop because Hellgate failed. And yet they were the ones who designed games you seem to love from the ground up. What does that say about you?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Actually, its one game and 2 expansions. But dont let little things like facts get in your way, you go right ahead and spread your lies.
Except the first game is equal to 1/3 of previous games in the craft series...but hey, lets not let little things like facts get in your way. you go right ahead and spread your half-truths. They had already made all three "parts" of the full game, and just decided to market them one after the other this time instead of making expansions after finishing the first game. Very Activision-ish, yeah I'm talking about you, COD map packs.
Spreading more lies I see.
Blizzard has said that each race's campaign in Sratcraft 2 will be between 26 and 30 missions, the Terrans are rumored to have 28 total missions.
Starcraft 1 had a combined total of 30 missions.
All 3 parts are already finished? Yeah, how about a link to that. If you cant provide a link this will be yet another lie from you.
Because paying 3x just to be able to use each race in online play will be fair. Yep. Totally fair.
Actually, its one game and 2 expansions. But dont let little things like facts get in your way, you go right ahead and spread your lies.
Except the first game is equal to 1/3 of previous games in the craft series...but hey, lets not let little things like facts get in your way. you go right ahead and spread your half-truths. They had already made all three "parts" of the full game, and just decided to market them one after the other this time instead of making expansions after finishing the first game. Very Activision-ish, yeah I'm talking about you, COD map packs.
Spreading more lies I see.
Blizzard has said that each race's campaign in Sratcraft 2 will be between 26 and 30 missions, the Terrans are rumored to have 28 total missions.
Starcraft 1 had a combined total of 30 missions.
All 3 parts are already finished? Yeah, how about a link to that. If you cant provide a link this will be yet another lie from you.
Because paying 3x just to be able to use each race in online play will be fair. Yep. Totally fair.
LOL all races will be avalible in the multiplayer. LOL that made my morning.
Each game will have an indepth ~30 mission campaign for each race that's why we get 3 games, which are just expansions in reality, just really big expansions. It was that or 10 short missions per race plus a dozen or so new missions in an expansions.
It's clear you have no attempt to look deeper into this trilogy thing so I won't waste my time explaining it further.
EVE won't ever be as big as WoW, I'm not suggesting that at all, but I'm curious as a gamer to see which of these two gaming organism/models will truly last longer (and I mean as a growing evolving system, not just the simple "servers are still online" thing).
EVE won't ever be as big as WoW, but at a certain point, WoW will be as small as EVE with EVE still kicking around with its decent niche playerbase...
It doesn't take much to design a shinier game than WoW. Many have tried, many will try, many have failed and many will fail, but at a certain point someone will eventually succeed (with a humongous investment, very competent team, and whatever it takes: we are talking about, perhaps, more than 15-20 million players). At that point, WoW will start its decline.
EVE is a niche game. It will take either many years to design a game as deep as EVE, or a huge amount of money. But no one will pour in the money it takes to do it faster (it's still a niche market) and no one will make an EVE-ish game with a moderate investment and "lag" behind eve forever (unless there is some technological breakthrough that allows some ground-breaking features like direct vessel/weapons control AND massive battles or something alike, but then it would still revolve mostly around smaller vessel dogfights, far from what EVE is about, as direct control of huge capital ships would be pointless).
Fully agree. I would have gone into the specifics you mention (as well as others) but didn't know how to do so in a way that didn't hijack the WoW forum into EVE stuff Well said.
Originally posted by Tsathoggua
Originally posted by Zeletor
Anyway, I'll bet 1 person $20 US that EVE outlasts WoW, we check back in 20 years (May 2030) and pay up.
I would do it--
but your argument is very sound and I have seen the gradual growth that has been happening in EVE...
So I am gonna keep my twenty dollars :P
Fair enough. Honestly I'm surprised nobody took my bet, you'd think that WoW had enough people confident in the uber-superiority of the game that someone would throw their money where their...well...mouth is. I was looking forward to making $20 off of someone in 20 years (which, by then would maybe be enough for me to buy a Snickers, 1 stick of a Kit Kat).
Currently playing: LOTRO, Guild Wars 2. Have played: EVE Online; Champions Online; Age of Conan; City of Heroes/Villains; Star Wars Galaxies (pre-CU, pre-NGE); World of Warcraft (Vanilla to Cataclysm); Hellgate: London; Warhammer Online; Lord of the Rings Online; Vanguard: Saga of Heroes; Star Wars: The Old Republic Wishlist: Mass Effect Online
Comments
You are remembering a Blizzard that no longer exists as a company. Most of the people have left, and the ones that are still there have no control any more. Blizzard was the best game developer out there, but it does not exist now.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
It's not just UO. EQ, AC, DAoC are all still running. Even The Realm is still running (my first MMO when it was basically all that existed). The games which started the genre are all still around. It was the MMOs in the next wave that have died out.
Will WoW be the longest running? It's tough to say they are a good 5 years behind the legends.
Their next MMO, although they've said it will be much different then WoW, will most definetly pull a large percentage of WoW players away.
WoW hasn't posted it's numbers in a while now which means it is shrinking finally. It still has a good 8-10 million cushion which certainly could last another 10 years. But the market is being filled more each year. More and more MMOs come in, all with different playstyles, settings, and levels of complexities.
So WoW could be around when UO/AC/EQ close down, but will it last long enough to be the longest running? One reason UO/AC/EQ lasted so long was the market was much different back then and there weren't a lot of MMO options until recently. So in 5 years imagine how many MMOs players can choose from. I don't know if an MMO will ever last as long as the original big 3 again.
But there is Counter Strike which has outlasted just about every other FPS even with the market flooded with FPS games. So it is certainly possible.
I belive it will last awhile. Around 10-15 years but not as long as other games.
Laviticus.
The only ones that have left are some contracted programs and artists the main team and founders are still there, Chris Metzen, Michael Morhaime, Rob Pardo and Frank Pearce, sure some of the more full time team would of left to continue their careers but that natural I no longer work in factory making CD's. Do you think the same people who made EQ1 made EQ2? the same people who made Supermario made Mario64? The same people who made GTA1 made GTA4?
Control of blizzard is still in the hands of the guys I mentioned, Activision do not own blizzard, blizzard has been owned by Vivendi and still are.
I think some guys left and made hellgate london.. yeah they were the cream of blizzard. the game bombed.
McDonalds might be the longest lasting fast food joint, but that doesnt mean its the most enriching or nutritional. /shrug
It is if the only alternative is mud. /hi5
"In December 2007, Activision announced that the company and its assets would merge with fellow games developer and publisher, Vivendi Games. René Penisson, formerly a member of the Management Board of Vivendi and Chairman of Vivendi Games, would serve as Chairman of Activision Blizzard. Bobby Kotick, once head of Activision, was announced to become President and CEO of Activision Blizzard."
And about Bobby Kotick, these are some of the things he said before he got slapped down:
" In responding to why Activision Blizzard chose not to publish certain games following the Activision/Blizzard merger, he stated that focusing on franchises that "have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises" has "worked very well for [Activision Blizzard]" "
" During Activision Blizzard's Q2 2009 financial results conference, Kotick was challenged over his "comfort level" around high prices attached to "new games that have some expensive controllers" (presumably the Guitar Hero, Tony Hawk and DJ Hero franchises), and said, "If it was left to me, I would raise the prices even further. "
" During a speech at the 2009 Deutsche Bank Securities Technology Conference, Kotick received significant criticism from enthusiasts and the media for stating, "We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games." Kotick later stated he tries to promote an atmosphere of "skepticism, pessimism, and fear" in his company and, "We are very good at keeping people focused on the deep depression." "
There you go.
Of course, think of what it what you like.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I bet that's what all the overweight fastfood junks say to themselves /hi5's back
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Activision announced that the company and its assets would merge with fellow games developer and publisher, Vivendi Games....
Merge....not buy out. Blizzard retains 51% stockholdings in its own company. Meaning it still controls its own house, but works with Activision under their umbrella. Kotick speaks for Activision and Blizzard, but as with any CEO if the board of directors turns on him he is done. Activision can not force Blizzard to do anything with Blizzard keeping 51% control. They can only offer incentives and convince Blizzard to do something.
Actually, that is not the complete truth:
"Activision Blizzard, Inc., formerly Activision, Inc. (NASDAQ: ATVI) is the American holding company for Activision and Blizzard Entertainment, majority owned by French conglomerate Vivendi SA."
And about another issue raised earlier, how the publishing works:
"The holding company [Activision Blizzard] does not publish games under its central name and instead uses its subsidiaries to publish games, similar to how Vivendi Games operated before the merger.[12] The merger makes Activision parent company of Vivendi Games former divisions."
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Except the first game is equal to 1/3 of previous games in the craft series...but hey, lets not let little things like facts get in your way. you go right ahead and spread your half-truths. They had already made all three "parts" of the full game, and just decided to market them one after the other this time instead of making expansions after finishing the first game. Very Activision-ish, yeah I'm talking about you, COD map packs.
Well they are actually Stand Alone titles as well. Each title will be its own game (own story, own missions).
So no matter what Blizzard wants you to believe, its a scheme to get more money from the players as all three games could be presented in 1 package. This scheme just took the one game and broke it up three ways to maximize profits.
So technically he isnt 'spreading lies' as even if they are 'expansions' you are still going to pay $150 for one game, specially if you want to play the different factions campaigns...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Not quite, cemosabe. Runescape just might snatch that crown. A game rising through the ashes since 2000 to maintaining at least a million sub base; sustaniing in that million range has been quite a feat. Not one game has accomoplished that for as long, though WoW with their heavy investment in advertising and promotion is not going away any time soon.
So when talknig about the accomplishment around this topic in our-time, its Runescape today, not WoW quite yet.
isnt asheron and uo still going i dont see them dieng soon and they must be 1- years old by now i see wow dieng after cataclysm when wow anounces its new mmo and all the next gen mmos come out including tior
Expresso, here of course I would like to reiterate what Cyphers has said.
The people that left Blizzard were the ones with the ideas and the talent. The management stayed because they made money with the merge with Activision. Blizzard still controls itself in one sense, in that they are just part of a holding company with Activision, but Vivendi owns something like 54% of the stock of that holding company. Ultimately, the control comes from there. Of course, Kotick is in charge for all practical purposes. And that is why so many people left Blizzard, because the company sold out.
I am sorry if this economics stuff is too complicated for you, but the simple version is that because of these changes to the corporate structure (big changes), the people that were in charge of designing Warcraft, Diablo, Warcraft II, Starcraft, Diablo II, Warcraft III, and World of Warcraft all left. The people that came up with all the basic mechanics for some of the best games ever left, and it shows. Look at the direction WoW has taken in the expansions and updates. It has been almost a 180 degree turnaround in philosophy. Of course, I won't argue that the hardcore 40 man raids were a good idea, but they were part of an older conception of what a MMORPG should be.
The closest thing we have now to the design and business philosophy of Blizzard of old now is ArenaNet.
I am sorry, but this is all the objective truth. The people that made the games that made Blizzard famous no longer work there. The core philosophy has changed because of the management of Kotick (just look at hte post with some of his quotes in it, he is a real charmer). Everything about the company is different save the name.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Actually, its one game and 2 expansions. But dont let little things like facts get in your way, you go right ahead and spread your lies.
Except the first game is equal to 1/3 of previous games in the craft series...but hey, lets not let little things like facts get in your way. you go right ahead and spread your half-truths. They had already made all three "parts" of the full game, and just decided to market them one after the other this time instead of making expansions after finishing the first game. Very Activision-ish, yeah I'm talking about you, COD map packs.
Spreading more lies I see.
Blizzard has said that each race's campaign in Sratcraft 2 will be between 26 and 30 missions, the Terrans are rumored to have 28 total missions.
Starcraft 1 had a combined total of 30 missions.
All 3 parts are already finished? Yeah, how about a link to that. If you cant provide a link this will be yet another lie from you.
All the talent in blizzard left a long time ago?
Arena net was founded in 2000 and has made 1 game in all this time, games released by blizzard since then are WC3 & WoW both games have won multiple awards, millions of sales.. and then we have SC2 just 8 weeks away from release. no talent lost there.
Flag ship games founded in 2003 when a bunch left due to the vivendi buyout, they left as they thought Blizzard was doomed, well lets see what these guys have done, Hellgate london and Mythos, yep no talent lost there also.
And I'll say again Activision does not own or control blizzard.
And in regards to SC2, the first game will have 30 missions, you'll need to complete 26 of them to complete the game. All 3 races in multiplayer. Blizzard have admitted the other 2 games are very early in development the biggest issue is the story mode space, they cannot simply have kerigan walking around an overmind or zeratul walking around a nexus.. the story mode space will be very different for each game.
We are not getting 1/3 of a game, its like saying we got 1/4 of a game when comparing DOW1 and DOW2.
The same 6 designers that made the original WOW are very much working for Blizzard.
From Pardo to Kaplan to Chilton.
Here is the list of Blizzard workers on the ORIGINAL World of Warcraft. (updated 2003 ...).
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/classic-credits.html
99% of those people still very much work with Blizzard. A few people died.
A quick overview on Wikipedia shows the rest of the story.
It is sad people want to break up the legendary orginal designers by spreading lies.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Activision does not control Blizzard. Vivendi does. We have no way of knowing how tight the reins are, but we do know that Kotick is now very much in charge, and he was not in charge before. That much at least should be obvious even to you.
The people at ArenaNet were key in the production of all the games that gave Blizzard its fame, and even the very famous Battle.net system. Those previous games are the cause of one of the reasons WoW was so big. It brought people that would never have played a MMO otherwise, and that large population brought more. It is the same critical mass you can see in bestseller novels that may not be that good.
The people from Flagship were key in the development of the Diablo games and the RTS games, as well as WoW. (Bobbadud, the reason they are not in the credits should be obvious, but that does not mean they were not very much a part of the design of gameplay and story.) They were the people working on Diablo at Blizzard North (Condor before Blizzard bought them for creative control), and have been key in the content and storytelling design of all the subsequent games. Why do you think the lore in WoW is so very different from that in the RTS games (I am not really counting as much the first two Warcraft games. It is interesting because you can see what great games they were, but how they had very thin and poorly designed story, and in Warcraft III, much of that was redesigned. Note now how different the WoW story and the general lore concepts in the Vanilla versus the expansions. The difference is pretty stark.) Flagship did fail with Hellgate, but I do not think it was from a lack of talent. I believe it had to do with the core design being incompatible with their MMO concepts, as well as just not having enough money. They are not making the same mistake with Torchlight and Runic games, and if you have played Torchlight, it is pretty obvious that the minds behind Diablo were behind it. If you do not think Bill Roper had a hand in the direction of WoW after being very important in most of Blizzard's other games, then I cannot help you.
The people left Blizzard because they wanted to be creative, and to take risks. Those risks will not always pay off, which is why large investors do not want to take them. It is a sad truth, but people want to play it safe with their money. I know I do.
I do not want to "break up the legendary designers." The team already broke up. And those that are left are not in control.
I used to think this was all common knowledge, back in 2003 after all the problems and the people leaving. I figured that people that cared about a company and their games would know simple things about who was in charge of their production. The game is really the people behind it, and not the name of the company.
Edit:
I wanted to add something for Expresso, (which, as an aside, is not how the drink is spelled, so I would be curious what the allusion is to). You say some of the main and best ideas in WoW were in the Diablo games, but you do not seem to realise that the people that made the Diablo games, and designed the original version of WoW, were the Blizzard North people, the same people that made Hellgate and now Torchlight. You do not seem to think much of those people, even sarcastically calling them the cream of the crop because Hellgate failed. And yet they were the ones who designed games you seem to love from the ground up. What does that say about you?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Because paying 3x just to be able to use each race in online play will be fair. Yep. Totally fair.
Also, in regards to blizzards devs leaving:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/computer_gaming_news/9248
The people who make SC2 are different from those who made SC1. No surprise there.
Also, so have the Diablo ones.
http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=5254&filterLevel=1&up=&pnum=28
Finally, some of WOW's devs left as well in 2006.
http://www.curse.com/articles/blizzard-entertainment-en-news/41858.aspx
Fully agree. I would have gone into the specifics you mention (as well as others) but didn't know how to do so in a way that didn't hijack the WoW forum into EVE stuff
Well said.
Fair enough.
Honestly I'm surprised nobody took my bet, you'd think that WoW had enough people confident in the uber-superiority of the game that someone would throw their money where their...well...mouth is. I was looking forward to making $20 off of someone in 20 years (which, by then would maybe be enough for me to buy a Snickers, 1 stick of a Kit Kat).
Currently playing: LOTRO, Guild Wars 2.
Have played: EVE Online; Champions Online; Age of Conan; City of Heroes/Villains; Star Wars Galaxies (pre-CU, pre-NGE); World of Warcraft (Vanilla to Cataclysm); Hellgate: London; Warhammer Online; Lord of the Rings Online; Vanguard: Saga of Heroes; Star Wars: The Old Republic
Wishlist: Mass Effect Online