Havent you guys /gals outgrown this raiding BS yet?
Farming items just to farm more items to farm more items.
How many times will you replace the same item slot before you finally realize that everything you play for is meaningless every upgrade?
Doing the same dungeons twenty times a week doesnt get boring after a while?
IM sorry but this is straight up addiction, Someone needs to say it.
WoW is so much worse than EQ ever was. You guys play a videogame that sets a carrot on a stick and then resets everything to zero constantly making anything you did before obsolete.
Wake up!
This is how all gearbased games will be. It has nothing to do with raiding because gear progression happens on all levels, solo, group, and raid. I'm not defending WoW raiding, I think it's boring and unchallenging, but I'm going thru the same cycle of gear replacement by raiding in VG just like I did in EQ...all gear based games do it.
Havent you guys /gals outgrown this raiding BS yet?
Farming items just to farm more items to farm more items.
How many times will you replace the same item slot before you finally realize that everything you play for is meaningless every upgrade?
Doing the same dungeons twenty times a week doesnt get boring after a while?
IM sorry but this is straight up addiction, Someone needs to say it.
WoW is so much worse than EQ ever was. You guys play a videogame that sets a carrot on a stick and then resets everything to zero constantly making anything you did before obsolete.
Wake up!
This is how all gearbased games will be. It has nothing to do with raiding because gear progression happens on all levels, solo, group, and raid. I'm not defending WoW raiding, I think it's boring and unchallenging, but I'm going thru the same cycle of gear replacement by raiding in VG just like I did in EQ...all gear based games do it.
In a perfect world Gear based mmos would cease to exist.
gearscore is a good add on and will be here to stay and probly put into most mmo's, If you put a little effort into your toon using the random dungeon finder or crafted stuff moving your 3k gearscore toon to 5k will happen in no time , any one under 5k gearscore shows they dont put time and effort into there toon and want free hands outs and wont pull enough dps pass the first 4 boss in icc . 4700 or so can handle the first 4 bosses but that gets old fast only doing that every week. tho sometimes when i know im only doing first 4 boss i will take a 4700.
Work on your toons !!
Grind boy, Grind!
Thanks for describing every mmo on the market hahaa
Probably why I don't play mmos anymore (although I did pick up the AoC xpac which is pretty neat, once I get to the grind part there I'll be done). Seriously most mmos are just shallow play about gear grinds. Running Heroic HoL 100 times? Running ICC week after week for that one piece of shiny? Fun times.
This only proves how greedy and selfish this game has become. I remember how fun it was back in Vanilla wow, everyone helping each others. We will wipe like crazy at some bosses and it was fun as hell lol. Now it's all about perfection, speed and maximum effectiveness. Everything is for your own personal benefits, screw helping others, i want the best and nothing but the best, i dont care if your 99% good, the guy next to you is 99.1% and his the one coming.
This only proves how greedy and selfish this game has become. I remember how fun it was back in Vanilla wow, everyone helping each others. We will wipe like crazy at some bosses and it was fun as hell lol. Now it's all about perfection, speed and maximum effectiveness. Everything is for your own personal benefits, screw helping others, i want the best and nothing but the best, i dont care if your 99% good, the guy next to you is 99.1% and his the one coming.
Heh... Lets not put those rose colored glasses on so fast bud.
I remember refusing players into my guild that weren't littered with full BWL/AQ40 Epics for our Nax Runs.
I remember us only recruiting warriors with a thunderfury on our server, we pouched Main tanks from Sub aq40 guilds and shit on everyone else.
It wasn't as bad as gear score but WoW was fucked up even then lol.
Some consider it even worse then because we were fucking rockstars on our servers. Now everyone is a douchebag not just the elite.
Wow ur all guns out man! Dont you think that if your comment was real about wow it would have go out wayyyyy before today ?
C'mon did you really think you were the first to think about this? And btw my immature respond is as high as your hate comment... quite low. Did you had any sources to proove your point ? Or was it only a free run against wow?
I could say that STO is a corkscrew game but it would be useless and futile... like your comment.
If you understood any game design or game mechanics you would know where I was coming from. Circular reasoning ftl.
Oh I think you should read this article here, this guy hit the nail on the head. This was posted on another thread -
"Not meaning to anger anyone with this thread, though I know in these forums its quite impossible. You can say "I enjoy vanilla ice cream" and still have 50 posts of angry, hot-tempered people who have nothing better to do than argue with you." - Dirkzen
I recently came back to World of Warcraft out of sheer curiosity and boredom since last October. Little did I know, this new entity of game design has taken absolute control of this game which they call gear score.
A little bit about me in my WoW days, I played since 2006, an undead mage the same character the whole time. Why? Because it was the only decent looking character model with decent animations, no over proportioned body parts and the mage class was the only class I could tolerate there.
When I last played I was in full tier 7 gear. I downloaded this addon because I was curious of this new gear score phenomena that breached wow like wild fire. Well, it was around 4k.
There were a lot of spamming on raids for VoA 10 and 25. Apparently they added two new bosses since I last played. I sent someone a tell that I would like to go. First thing he asked was, “what was your gear score?” I said 4k. He said, “no way”. I was confused, wait a minute, I use to do well on dps in VoA 10 and 25 back in the day and now I can’t go? I was puzzled. I asked the guy is it because of my low gear score? The player simply said yes, and told me I was a horrible player because of my low gear score. Woah! And that’s not the first time someone said that because of my low gear score.
After a week or so, I had to get around a 5k-5k2 gear score to even be considered to raid. This bothered me as a long time mmorpg player and game designer. I worked my way up to a 4k9 gear score to see if I was eligible to be considered for a ToC or ICC raid. Interesting enough, no one would take me because I was a 100 gs off. So basically, my dps output was being belittled because I didn’t breach that requirement.
I was considered a horrible player because I did not have “gear.” Consider, that gear is not a deterrent to factor in over player skill. Obviously, players in world of warcraft, at least most of them believe that is true. “That if you don’t have the gear you’re a horrible player”
Now, I completely comprehend that WoW’s game design philosophy is based all around how you build your character off certain stats and specs. For instance, mages now need haste and spell power. Before I quit it was hit and spell power. In WoW as a player your dependent on how well geared your character is to produce the highest quality of damage output in my case. Because one doesn’t have a high gear score does NOT negate the fact that their player skill is gone. Wait… WoW doesn’t take that much player skill at all besides essential mmorpg common sense, knowing how to macro your abilities and being fast with their somewhat twitch game play to react with certain situations.
With this new mechanic, players are now pigeon hold between a rock and a hard place if they barely miss out on a gear score to go to raids; with or without guild help. This also frustrates the player and makes the game play a job to succeed into being considered a raid spot to further progress your character.
Gear score further strokes unwarranted egos of immature players in which control the community of the core pathway for player’s progression. This simple mechanic destroys the immersion, adventure and fun out of this game which it had very little of to begin with. And now, its been completely omitted.
Gearscore abuse is at the wow's players fault. Technically it should be directed to Blizzard for allowing such an awful game design mechanic (which I suppose they can't do anything about it) They never should allowed 3rd party ui's and addons to begin with but thats a whole other thread. There are a lot of bad game design philosophies in WoW such as being completely dependent on gear with high stat based composition. It does not allow a player to adapt to situations with their class using the players mind to develop their own strategy but instead you have to “spec” by class and gear to achieve success. No way in hell does this game give any sort of challenge but a colossal amount of frustration and shrugs.
I for one, hope that newer mmorpgs and current existing ones do not adapt this gear score mechanic at all because it ruins all factors of the qualities of true mmorpg aspects. Futhurmore, gearscore is just mortor to the corner stone of gear which should be not be used to it's degree. Gear in mmorpgs should be only about 25% advantage for players whether it is PVE or PVP. In my own personal opinion to shy away from gear being completely dependent for players “skill level”; is to design a diverse combat system which complements a deep structure class system where players can develop skill by strategy rather than gear. Gear should be a perk to help you progress easier which will balance out most other mechanics later on not a major contributing factor for all progression. Remember, mmorpgs are suppose to be for, community and adventure.
Note* Edited post because I had disinformation
Yes yes, Gearscore is stupid.
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
I recently came back to World of Warcraft out of sheer curiosity and boredom since last October. Little did I know, this new entity of game design has taken absolute control of this game which they call gear score.
A little bit about me in my WoW days, I played since 2006, an undead mage the same character the whole time. Why? Because it was the only decent looking character model with decent animations, no over proportioned body parts and the mage class was the only class I could tolerate there.
When I last played I was in full tier 7 gear. I downloaded this addon because I was curious of this new gear score phenomena that breached wow like wild fire. Well, it was around 4k.
There were a lot of spamming on raids for VoA 10 and 25. Apparently they added two new bosses since I last played. I sent someone a tell that I would like to go. First thing he asked was, “what was your gear score?” I said 4k. He said, “no way”. I was confused, wait a minute, I use to do well on dps in VoA 10 and 25 back in the day and now I can’t go? I was puzzled. I asked the guy is it because of my low gear score? The player simply said yes, and told me I was a horrible player because of my low gear score. Woah! And that’s not the first time someone said that because of my low gear score.
After a week or so, I had to get around a 5k-5k2 gear score to even be considered to raid. This bothered me as a long time mmorpg player and game designer. I worked my way up to a 4k9 gear score to see if I was eligible to be considered for a ToC or ICC raid. Interesting enough, no one would take me because I was a 100 gs off. So basically, my dps output was being belittled because I didn’t breach that requirement.
I was considered a horrible player because I did not have “gear.” Consider, that gear is not a deterrent to factor in over player skill. Obviously, players in world of warcraft, at least most of them believe that is true. “That if you don’t have the gear you’re a horrible player”
Now, I completely comprehend that WoW’s game design philosophy is based all around how you build your character off certain stats and specs. For instance, mages now need haste and spell power. Before I quit it was hit and spell power. In WoW as a player your dependent on how well geared your character is to produce the highest quality of damage output in my case. Because one doesn’t have a high gear score does NOT negate the fact that their player skill is gone. Wait… WoW doesn’t take that much player skill at all besides essential mmorpg common sense, knowing how to macro your abilities and being fast with their somewhat twitch game play to react with certain situations.
With this new mechanic, players are now pigeon hold between a rock and a hard place if they barely miss out on a gear score to go to raids; with or without guild help. This also frustrates the player and makes the game play a job to succeed into being considered a raid spot to further progress your character.
Gear score further strokes unwarranted egos of immature players in which control the community of the core pathway for player’s progression. This simple mechanic destroys the immersion, adventure and fun out of this game which it had very little of to begin with. And now, its been completely omitted.
Gearscore abuse is at the wow's players fault. Technically it should be directed to Blizzard for allowing such an awful game design mechanic (which I suppose they can't do anything about it) They never should allowed 3rd party ui's and addons to begin with but thats a whole other thread. There are a lot of bad game design philosophies in WoW such as being completely dependent on gear with high stat based composition. It does not allow a player to adapt to situations with their class using the players mind to develop their own strategy but instead you have to “spec” by class and gear to achieve success. No way in hell does this game give any sort of challenge but a colossal amount of frustration and shrugs.
I for one, hope that newer mmorpgs and current existing ones do not adapt this gear score mechanic at all because it ruins all factors of the qualities of true mmorpg aspects. Futhurmore, gearscore is just mortor to the corner stone of gear which should be not be used to it's degree. Gear in mmorpgs should be only about 25% advantage for players whether it is PVE or PVP. In my own personal opinion to shy away from gear being completely dependent for players “skill level”; is to design a diverse combat system which complements a deep structure class system where players can develop skill by strategy rather than gear. Gear should be a perk to help you progress easier which will balance out most other mechanics later on not a major contributing factor for all progression. Remember, mmorpgs are suppose to be for, community and adventure.
Note* Edited post because I had disinformation
Yes yes, Gearscore is stupid.
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
A week? So you ran 20+ dungeons a day? How long would it take someone with an actual life?
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
A week? So you ran 20+ dungeons a day? How long would it take someone with an actual life?
People exaggerate the time here. If he had a raiding guild behind him then yes you could be ready for ICC in a week (doing what you suggested, running a lot of dungeons). However, if you are in a non raiding guild, or solo, if you wanted to raid with pugs with their required gear score it would take quite a bit longer.
GS is not just about endgame, now we see rerolls using Heirlooms items, soon enough they will ask your GS score to run deadmine ! I'm serious i saw level 15 in full Heirloom items with the GS of over 1000 ! That's more than some 60 i saw !
I dunno if GS is killing this game or not, but i can say that it killed it for me. I have a life outside this game, i cant afford to play WOW 30 hours a week, run the same dungeon 25 times just to get a chance to get that next Epic.
Thats pathetic. Blizzard needs to burn in hell.
Nope. They are providing a service that millions and millions of people are actively paying for. They have achieved a potent mixture of achievement and random reward that links into human psychology rather well. Those who claim its an addiction are missing the point, and mis applying the definition.
Havent you guys /gals outgrown this raiding BS yet?
Farming items just to farm more items to farm more items.
How many times will you replace the same item slot before you finally realize that everything you play for is meaningless every upgrade?
Doing the same dungeons twenty times a week doesnt get boring after a while?
IM sorry but this is straight up addiction, Someone needs to say it.
WoW is so much worse than EQ ever was. You guys play a videogame that sets a carrot on a stick and then resets everything to zero constantly making anything you did before obsolete.
Wake up!
This is how all gearbased games will be. It has nothing to do with raiding because gear progression happens on all levels, solo, group, and raid. I'm not defending WoW raiding, I think it's boring and unchallenging, but I'm going thru the same cycle of gear replacement by raiding in VG just like I did in EQ...all gear based games do it.
In a perfect world Gear based mmos would cease to exist.
So would governments and religions... ^^ But this world is far from perfect, and everyone has their own personal illusions and delusions that get them through life. Thats the human condition.
Gear score is just one of the latest examples of that mentality applied to games. Games are supposed to be about entertainment. Way too many people make them another form of work.
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
A week? So you ran 20+ dungeons a day? How long would it take someone with an actual life?
People exaggerate the time here. If he had a raiding guild behind him then yes you could be ready for ICC in a week (doing what you suggested, running a lot of dungeons). However, if you are in a non raiding guild, or solo, if you wanted to raid with pugs with their required gear score it would take quite a bit longer.
It takes a maximum of around 20 hours to get 5k GS by running heroic dungeons, with the 4 new all epic drop dungeons.
Blizzard, and anyone else, can say whatever they want, the fact is that over time, Blizzard has made this game all about what gear you have, and the specific power of that gear. In the beginning of the game, gear would give you and edge, of epic armour and weapons were powerful and coveted, and of course the hardcore people with no real life obsessed over the gear, but the item progression now is at a ridiculous level where two people at the max level can have drastically different power levels due to nothing but the item level of their gear.
Anyone can claim this is not the fault of the core game design, but that is flat out wrong.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
A week? So you ran 20+ dungeons a day? How long would it take someone with an actual life?
People exaggerate the time here. If he had a raiding guild behind him then yes you could be ready for ICC in a week (doing what you suggested, running a lot of dungeons). However, if you are in a non raiding guild, or solo, if you wanted to raid with pugs with their required gear score it would take quite a bit longer.
It takes a maximum of around 20 hours to get 5k GS by running heroic dungeons, with the 4 new all epic drop dungeons.
You cannot get 5k GS with ILevel 232 gear. In order to get 5k or above you need either the new crafted epics out of ICC raids, a drop from there, the hilt weapon, or Frost emblem gear. Triumph emblem gear and the heroic ICC dungeon gear alone will not get you to 5k.
Originally posted by Murashu I give every dungeon at least one wipe before leaving. This applies to my tank and other toons as well. If we do wipe, I evaluate how we did. Taking Halls of Reflection as the popular example, if we wipe before defeating the first boss, I'm out. If we wipe on the hardest/final waves, I'll give it another try and reevaluate the situation (kick as needed, etc.).
As much as I might not need items from the dungeons, I try to keep in mind that I'm here to play the game with other people as well and the dungeon could provide some big boosts to them. At the same time I'm not here to completely waste my time for people who are super behind in gear and hopefully they understand that.
Blizzard employees don't want to play with undergeared players so it's not hard to imagine WoW players having this mentality.
This mentality makes me sick. Kick people, drop group, after a wipe. Some players are bad, but a great many players who seem stupid or inept just need some help. Everyone wants to enjoy the game, but if someone just gets kicked out because they make a mistake or do not understand something, they just get upset and become less likely to work with people or take advice in the future. A dungeon should be a collaborative effort, and just kicking out people who aren't good enough for you or do not do things the way you like, is a large part of the problem. Of course, the people that do that are usually the same type of people that like the concept of a gear score.
It is a game, and it is a team effort. A dungeon should bring people together, not be a race or a competition or a simple grind to get something. That misses the entire point.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I think you guys are out of subject... let me see Ha! yes! it was Gearscore was made by blizzard employees!
Exactly.. Blizzard didn't create "gear scrore".. no more then Phillip Morris created lung cancer.. HOWEVER, Phillip Morris did create the cigaretted that leads to cancer, no more different then the mechanics and tools Blizzard sells that lead to the cancer in their game.. What do they call it now a days? Cause and effect?
I think you guys are out of subject... let me see Ha! yes! it was Gearscore was made by blizzard employees!
Exactly.. Blizzard didn't create "gear scrore".. no more then Phillip Morris created lung cancer.. HOWEVER, Phillip Morris did create the cigaretted that leads to cancer, no more different then the mechanics and tools Blizzard sells that lead to the cancer in their game.. What do they call it now a days? Cause and effect?
I get what you are trying to say there but your analogy is way off. Phillip Morris did not create the cigarrette and while smoking may lead to cancer, it is not cigarettes alone.
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
A week? So you ran 20+ dungeons a day? How long would it take someone with an actual life?
People exaggerate the time here. If he had a raiding guild behind him then yes you could be ready for ICC in a week (doing what you suggested, running a lot of dungeons). However, if you are in a non raiding guild, or solo, if you wanted to raid with pugs with their required gear score it would take quite a bit longer.
It takes a maximum of around 20 hours to get 5k GS by running heroic dungeons, with the 4 new all epic drop dungeons.
You cannot get 5k GS with ILevel 232 gear. In order to get 5k or above you need either the new crafted epics out of ICC raids, a drop from there, the hilt weapon, or Frost emblem gear. Triumph emblem gear and the heroic ICC dungeon gear alone will not get you to 5k.
I distinctly remember being exactly 5k with heroic only gear.
I think you guys are out of subject... let me see Ha! yes! it was Gearscore was made by blizzard employees!
Exactly.. Blizzard didn't create "gear scrore".. no more then Phillip Morris created lung cancer.. HOWEVER, Phillip Morris did create the cigaretted that leads to cancer, no more different then the mechanics and tools Blizzard sells that lead to the cancer in their game.. What do they call it now a days? Cause and effect?
I get what you are trying to say there but your analogy is way off. Phillip Morris did not create the cigarrette are you confusing the definition of "creating and inventing"? Phillip Morris most certainly creates and manufactures cigarettes and while smoking may lead to cancer, it is not cigarettes alone. True and I didn't say Blizzard is alone in the effect of gear score.. But the two have a direct relationship
Look at this way.. IF Blizzard didn't didn't have so many "tiers" of armor from 200 to 277.. Would gear score even exist? I think we know what the answer is..
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
A week? So you ran 20+ dungeons a day? How long would it take someone with an actual life?
People exaggerate the time here. If he had a raiding guild behind him then yes you could be ready for ICC in a week (doing what you suggested, running a lot of dungeons). However, if you are in a non raiding guild, or solo, if you wanted to raid with pugs with their required gear score it would take quite a bit longer.
Yes my guild did help me out. I had stopped playing awhile back when my account was hacked and Blizzard was failboat at helping me.
But considering instant queues with the tank and 20 minutes MAX dungeons it's not like it takes up all your life seeing as you can get up to 7 badges and a minimum of 5.
So within an hour you could have a shiny new piece of gear.
It was a fury warrior that I leveled, I grabbed the axe from H pos and the mace from Reg pos.
That in combination with the various other crap that drops from the ICC 5 mans and badge gear it really was relatively easy.
Once I popped Berserking on both my weapons within a week I was rocking 5k deeps in any given 5 man.
In another week I had a set of heirlooms and a 5 man ready tank set
I find leveling much more painful than gearing, to be honest lol
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
Did you ever realise that addition of dungeon tool was fault of the players itself? if groups were so readily avilable and players were not forced to skip content do you think Blizzard would implement such a tool? fact is that people want to experince all of the content and lets be fair, there is no fun in standing at one place and spamming 'lfg' for hours. There was a huge demand for such a tool and Blizzard only gave what players wanted.
Nothing wrong with giving players a chance to experince all of the content. isn't that what we pay a monthly sub for? whats the better option? making all low level content soloable like Turbine did with LOTR or add a dungeon finder tool?
Fault of the players? Or players are being 'forced' (meaning, not deciding, which means there is no fault to be found) to skip content? You're contradicting yourself.
The fault is squarely on Blizzard. Players, in this game, any game, react directly to the mechanics that compose the game. If there is a poor response to an implemented mechanic, review the CAUSE, not the EFFECT.
How, why, and when, did low-level content become obsolete? Did it become nigh impossible to find a group for? Well, Blizzard did this wonderful little thing called 'speed up the path to level cap' back in BC whereby
- All world mobs were now all non-elite
- All quests gave 1/3 more xp
- All mobs had 1/3 less hp
- All mobs had 1/3 less attack.
This made solo'ing, questing in particular, HIGHLY more beneficial than any sort of grouping. Because Blizzard was making a patch solution to another problem in their game: top-heavy population at level cap, with the 'game' 'starting' at level cap.
The demand for such a tool was a demand created by poor mechanic implementation on behalf of Blizzard themselves. Blizzard didn't 'give players what they wanted' so much as they 'fixed a by-product of poor implimentation'... and the core problem remains untouched.
Launching patch solutions to quel effects has proven to be unfruitful. The devs can keep trying to put lipstick on the pig...
How did Blizzard force player to skip a content? if someone wants to power level and hit end game content its their fault or companys fault? only because xp is increased doesn't mean one has to hit cap asap. Its like a double edged sword. if leveling is too slow players moan and if leveling is too fast players still moan. And since when low xp has stopped players from hitting lvl cap within few days? incrased xp just gives incentives to casual gamers who can't spend more then two hours a day on a video game.
if anything the dungeon tool has made lots of content now available to new and old players which they couldn't do because players were too busy power lvling. Its still a lot better option then changing low level content into completely soloable like LOTR. You can't blame unwilligness of players to group up on devs, thats really crazy talk. And this pig with lipstick still looks hundred times more gorgeous then any of your pretty horses.
Read the post again. Blizzard 'highly encouraged' players to skip 5man instanced pve content due to the overwhelming ease and reward from questing. That is a direct result (read: Blizzard's 'fault') of a design decision that the playerbase is merely reacting to. The players aren't guilty of 'skipping content' ... they're just being smart about time investment, and going with what the biggest payoff is in terms of time:xp gain.
But no one has to hit xp cap, much less on a schedule. Absolutely. But you're conveniently? ignoring a very simple, and crucial, element here: it's an MMORPG, and over 80% of the entire populace is AT LEVEL CAP. So, being a human, and the social creature that I am (like all humans are), I have a fundamental pull to be where others are. Reading this alongside paragraph 1 leads us to a simple conclusion as to what the path chosen 9 times out of 10 will be.
The thing about group content... is it requires a group- other people. That means other people must see merit in it, and not just yourself. With a focus of game design set squarely on end-game PVE raiding, and a trip from 1-80 that facilitates 'getting into the game' 'quicker' ... it's kinda hard to *NOT* see the merit in doing low-level content.
Who's arguing to make it solo'able? Who said the dungeon finder was bad for group-finding? And the conclusion you come to about 'crazy talk' is unrelated. I've backed up with detailed accuracy WHY and WHEN low-level dungeons went obsolete, you've ranted with no backup. It's Blizzard's design decisions, and I've proven that.
And the personal attack at the end? A troll attempt? The only 'pretty horses' are the ones in WoW- that r-tards shell out 25 bucks for.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
I give every dungeon at least one wipe before leaving. This applies to my tank and other toons as well. If we do wipe, I evaluate how we did. Taking Halls of Reflection as the popular example, if we wipe before defeating the first boss, I'm out. If we wipe on the hardest/final waves, I'll give it another try and reevaluate the situation (kick as needed, etc.).
As much as I might not need items from the dungeons, I try to keep in mind that I'm here to play the game with other people as well and the dungeon could provide some big boosts to them. At the same time I'm not here to completely waste my time for people who are super behind in gear and hopefully they understand that.
Blizzard employees don't want to play with undergeared players so it's not hard to imagine WoW players having this mentality.
This link rather puts to bed any doubt that the community is bad. When the disease has crept into the house of the devs.. you know it's time to leave if you haven't left already.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Look at the bars: spread out evenly from level 10 to level 79. reason: Lots of low level alts are being played daily.
Secondly: a close friend of mine ( playing since 3 years) leveled a new druid class in the past weeks.
Yesterday he turned to level 60, playing for 5 days and 4 hours total. he didn't level his professions and he said he used to do one or two dungeon achievements for each dunegon combined with open world questing.
So he played (with one heirloom) around 124 hours to reach level 60. He plays around 3 hours a day. He has 4 mains at level 80.
It was an interesting stat to analyse:
It shows to me that the total leveling time to reach lvl 80 of someone new to WOW would be the same as the average old time to reach 60 before the TBC patch.
There is only one difference: leveling characters can opt to play in a dungeon now. There is only one problem: now that he reaches Outland he has to put more work into the questing areas as he runs out of Gold (not doing gathering professions and running dungeons costs money).
So the above facts and objective stats (link) prove you wrong I guess. I was with the guy yesterday and I asked him to show me the number of players in the Hellfire zone of Outland (4 PM). 34 players were present in that zone in the afternoon.
So no there are far more low level characters being played than you think.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Look at the bars: spread out evenly from level 10 to level 79. reason: Lots of low level alts are being played daily.
Secondly: a close friend of mine ( playing since 3 years) leveled a new druid class in the past weeks.
Yesterday he turned to level 60, playing for 5 days and 4 hours total. he didn't level his professions and he said he used to do one or two dungeon achievements for each dunegon combined with open world questing.
So he played (with one heirloom) around 124 hours to reach level 60. He plays around 3 hours a day. He has 4 mains at level 80.
It was an interesting stat to analyse:
It shows to me that the total leveling time to reach lvl 80 of someone new to WOW would be the same as the average old time to reach 60 before the TBC patch.
There is only one difference: leveling characters can opt to play in a dungeon now. There is only one problem: now that he reaches Outland he has to put more work into the questing areas as he runs out of Gold (not doing gathering professions and running dungeons costs money).
So the above facts and objective stats (link) prove you wrong I guess.
It would be nice to not have to reroll alts all the time because of an incredibly lacking and repetitive endgame.
When i played WoW Pre-Tbc was so fucking epic that I used the same Undead Warrior (prot) for over two years. TBC releases with its shitty progression reset and bland endgame and I suddenly had 6 70's.
Wanna judge how bad a endgame is? ask people how many alts they have.
Comments
This is how all gearbased games will be. It has nothing to do with raiding because gear progression happens on all levels, solo, group, and raid. I'm not defending WoW raiding, I think it's boring and unchallenging, but I'm going thru the same cycle of gear replacement by raiding in VG just like I did in EQ...all gear based games do it.
In a perfect world Gear based mmos would cease to exist.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Probably why I don't play mmos anymore (although I did pick up the AoC xpac which is pretty neat, once I get to the grind part there I'll be done). Seriously most mmos are just shallow play about gear grinds. Running Heroic HoL 100 times? Running ICC week after week for that one piece of shiny? Fun times.
This only proves how greedy and selfish this game has become. I remember how fun it was back in Vanilla wow, everyone helping each others. We will wipe like crazy at some bosses and it was fun as hell lol. Now it's all about perfection, speed and maximum effectiveness. Everything is for your own personal benefits, screw helping others, i want the best and nothing but the best, i dont care if your 99% good, the guy next to you is 99.1% and his the one coming.
Heh... Lets not put those rose colored glasses on so fast bud.
I remember refusing players into my guild that weren't littered with full BWL/AQ40 Epics for our Nax Runs.
I remember us only recruiting warriors with a thunderfury on our server, we pouched Main tanks from Sub aq40 guilds and shit on everyone else.
It wasn't as bad as gear score but WoW was fucked up even then lol.
Some consider it even worse then because we were fucking rockstars on our servers. Now everyone is a douchebag not just the elite.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Wolfshead summed up absolutely brilliantly.
"Not meaning to anger anyone with this thread, though I know in these forums its quite impossible. You can say "I enjoy vanilla ice cream" and still have 50 posts of angry, hot-tempered people who have nothing better to do than argue with you." - Dirkzen
Yes yes, Gearscore is stupid.
But a week after my warrior hit 80 he was ICC ready so it's not like it's any huge issue.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
--------
Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
---------
Played and loved: Eve and WoW
--------
Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
A week? So you ran 20+ dungeons a day? How long would it take someone with an actual life?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
People exaggerate the time here. If he had a raiding guild behind him then yes you could be ready for ICC in a week (doing what you suggested, running a lot of dungeons). However, if you are in a non raiding guild, or solo, if you wanted to raid with pugs with their required gear score it would take quite a bit longer.
Nope. They are providing a service that millions and millions of people are actively paying for. They have achieved a potent mixture of achievement and random reward that links into human psychology rather well. Those who claim its an addiction are missing the point, and mis applying the definition.
So would governments and religions... ^^ But this world is far from perfect, and everyone has their own personal illusions and delusions that get them through life. Thats the human condition.
Gear score is just one of the latest examples of that mentality applied to games. Games are supposed to be about entertainment. Way too many people make them another form of work.
It takes a maximum of around 20 hours to get 5k GS by running heroic dungeons, with the 4 new all epic drop dungeons.
Blizzard, and anyone else, can say whatever they want, the fact is that over time, Blizzard has made this game all about what gear you have, and the specific power of that gear. In the beginning of the game, gear would give you and edge, of epic armour and weapons were powerful and coveted, and of course the hardcore people with no real life obsessed over the gear, but the item progression now is at a ridiculous level where two people at the max level can have drastically different power levels due to nothing but the item level of their gear.
Anyone can claim this is not the fault of the core game design, but that is flat out wrong.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
You cannot get 5k GS with ILevel 232 gear. In order to get 5k or above you need either the new crafted epics out of ICC raids, a drop from there, the hilt weapon, or Frost emblem gear. Triumph emblem gear and the heroic ICC dungeon gear alone will not get you to 5k.
This mentality makes me sick. Kick people, drop group, after a wipe. Some players are bad, but a great many players who seem stupid or inept just need some help. Everyone wants to enjoy the game, but if someone just gets kicked out because they make a mistake or do not understand something, they just get upset and become less likely to work with people or take advice in the future. A dungeon should be a collaborative effort, and just kicking out people who aren't good enough for you or do not do things the way you like, is a large part of the problem. Of course, the people that do that are usually the same type of people that like the concept of a gear score.
It is a game, and it is a team effort. A dungeon should bring people together, not be a race or a competition or a simple grind to get something. That misses the entire point.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
I think you guys are out of subject... let me see Ha! yes! it was Gearscore was made by blizzard employees!
Exactly.. Blizzard didn't create "gear scrore".. no more then Phillip Morris created lung cancer.. HOWEVER, Phillip Morris did create the cigaretted that leads to cancer, no more different then the mechanics and tools Blizzard sells that lead to the cancer in their game.. What do they call it now a days? Cause and effect?
The cause = The boy teased the cat
The effect = The cat growled
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The cause = Blizzard designs the game heavly dependant on level or gear
The effect = Gear Score
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we are pretty much on target..
I get what you are trying to say there but your analogy is way off. Phillip Morris did not create the cigarrette and while smoking may lead to cancer, it is not cigarettes alone.
I distinctly remember being exactly 5k with heroic only gear.
Look at this way.. IF Blizzard didn't didn't have so many "tiers" of armor from 200 to 277.. Would gear score even exist? I think we know what the answer is..
Yes my guild did help me out. I had stopped playing awhile back when my account was hacked and Blizzard was failboat at helping me.
But considering instant queues with the tank and 20 minutes MAX dungeons it's not like it takes up all your life seeing as you can get up to 7 badges and a minimum of 5.
So within an hour you could have a shiny new piece of gear.
It was a fury warrior that I leveled, I grabbed the axe from H pos and the mace from Reg pos.
That in combination with the various other crap that drops from the ICC 5 mans and badge gear it really was relatively easy.
Once I popped Berserking on both my weapons within a week I was rocking 5k deeps in any given 5 man.
In another week I had a set of heirlooms and a 5 man ready tank set
I find leveling much more painful than gearing, to be honest lol
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
--------
Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
---------
Played and loved: Eve and WoW
--------
Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
Read the post again. Blizzard 'highly encouraged' players to skip 5man instanced pve content due to the overwhelming ease and reward from questing. That is a direct result (read: Blizzard's 'fault') of a design decision that the playerbase is merely reacting to. The players aren't guilty of 'skipping content' ... they're just being smart about time investment, and going with what the biggest payoff is in terms of time:xp gain.
But no one has to hit xp cap, much less on a schedule. Absolutely. But you're conveniently? ignoring a very simple, and crucial, element here: it's an MMORPG, and over 80% of the entire populace is AT LEVEL CAP. So, being a human, and the social creature that I am (like all humans are), I have a fundamental pull to be where others are. Reading this alongside paragraph 1 leads us to a simple conclusion as to what the path chosen 9 times out of 10 will be.
The thing about group content... is it requires a group- other people. That means other people must see merit in it, and not just yourself. With a focus of game design set squarely on end-game PVE raiding, and a trip from 1-80 that facilitates 'getting into the game' 'quicker' ... it's kinda hard to *NOT* see the merit in doing low-level content.
Who's arguing to make it solo'able? Who said the dungeon finder was bad for group-finding? And the conclusion you come to about 'crazy talk' is unrelated. I've backed up with detailed accuracy WHY and WHEN low-level dungeons went obsolete, you've ranted with no backup. It's Blizzard's design decisions, and I've proven that.
And the personal attack at the end? A troll attempt? The only 'pretty horses' are the ones in WoW- that r-tards shell out 25 bucks for.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
This link rather puts to bed any doubt that the community is bad. When the disease has crept into the house of the devs.. you know it's time to leave if you haven't left already.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
@Pojung:
First: WOW is one of those games in which constantly new characters are being leveled.
Proof?
Here: http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-1&factionid=-1&minlevel=10&maxlevel=80&servertypeid=-1
Look at the bars: spread out evenly from level 10 to level 79. reason: Lots of low level alts are being played daily.
Secondly: a close friend of mine ( playing since 3 years) leveled a new druid class in the past weeks.
Yesterday he turned to level 60, playing for 5 days and 4 hours total. he didn't level his professions and he said he used to do one or two dungeon achievements for each dunegon combined with open world questing.
So he played (with one heirloom) around 124 hours to reach level 60. He plays around 3 hours a day. He has 4 mains at level 80.
It was an interesting stat to analyse:
It shows to me that the total leveling time to reach lvl 80 of someone new to WOW would be the same as the average old time to reach 60 before the TBC patch.
There is only one difference: leveling characters can opt to play in a dungeon now. There is only one problem: now that he reaches Outland he has to put more work into the questing areas as he runs out of Gold (not doing gathering professions and running dungeons costs money).
So the above facts and objective stats (link) prove you wrong I guess. I was with the guy yesterday and I asked him to show me the number of players in the Hellfire zone of Outland (4 PM). 34 players were present in that zone in the afternoon.
So no there are far more low level characters being played than you think.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
It would be nice to not have to reroll alts all the time because of an incredibly lacking and repetitive endgame.
When i played WoW Pre-Tbc was so fucking epic that I used the same Undead Warrior (prot) for over two years. TBC releases with its shitty progression reset and bland endgame and I suddenly had 6 70's.
Wanna judge how bad a endgame is? ask people how many alts they have.
Edit: Typo
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP