personally i love F2p games! but, id rather get B2p game then a p2p. why? because no monthly subs and its mine for good. hell i bought guild wars trilogy and eye of the north and sum cash shop stuff. i love the system they came up with and i plan to buy GW2 and all expansions the come with as well. why? why the hell not..lol its a awsome system and they way these games are made is outstanding as you can acheive so much in them and have a ton of fun doing so. i also plan to buy alganon soon. (i know not much of a game) but i had a bit of fun with the trial and its only 20 bucks and its b2p aswell so i dont mind dishing out the money.and for free to play perfect worlds system i like the most u can be a free player but have all the item mall goodies without spending 1 penny. I'd say boys a new generation of online games is here and u will have sum crappy ones but theirs always a few that will make ya go * This cant be real! I love it! * . just my 2 cents.
I'll say this again, the payment model doesn't matter. It's the game mechanics that are the most important thing that may break immersion and creates an unfair playing field.
Um, no. F2P is a game mechanic. The cash shop is in the game.
P2P your character earns his gear and money inside the game. The real life cash you pay for the sub is not part of the game mechanics.
So the payment model matters if it's INSIDE the game.
My character doesn't pay 15 dollars a month inside WoW.
In a F2P game, my character pays 75 cents or whatever it is of real life cash, for an xp potion. That's a game mechanic.
Um, no. P2P is also a game mechanic. The real cash-bought expansion content is in the game. You need it to advance.
My F2P character earns his gears and money inside the game. Btw, he also earns cash-shop items INSIDE the game by trading for them with in-game gold.
So the payment model doesn't matter to me at all.
In-game economy and smart trading are part of gameplay, learn to master it.
This is really cutting hairs, if I click on something out of game and pay, or grind to pay the only difference is the amount of clicking.
F2P games are designed to allow you to avoid paying by just playing a lot…..that’s what you are saying. Do you really think a F2P MMO would be designed where you can escape paying by grinding? Sure you can get yourself some points to buy stuff in the cash shop, that system is there to ease players who don’t like cash shops into the habit of buying. E.g. ‘If I just paid for a few more points I could get that item!’.
F2P games often start you with things like health potions which top your health up to max when you are hit. That runs out after a few levels. You made enough points to buy half of a new one, not going to cost much just to buy the other half is it? The MMO is designed to make you feel you are earning your crust by grinding, so you deserve to actually spend ‘a little’ money on your character don’t you?
The F2P revenue model uses psychology similar to that which was used to design slot machines and casino games. You have invested a stake in your MMO with the money you have put in so far, surely its worth a few dollars more?
The people who designed and then developed the F2P concept really know how to make you buy both when you don’t need to and when you do need to. But then that’s their job, these are highly paid professionals who work out how to get the customer to part with the most money. They have designed their cash making skinner box very well.
PvP-centric MMOs will still go with the P2P-model, as the F2P-model creates heavy imbalance in PvP.
EvE and Darkfall for example will never go F2P... well... maybe, but that's the nail in the coffin then I guess ^^
Uh, EVE has had a 'F2P' option since before anyone knew what such things where. The difference is that it's structured very differently from the iniquitous "cash shops" for the F2P genre, and therefore causes few of the balance/gameplay issues that they do.
PvP-centric MMOs will still go with the P2P-model, as the F2P-model creates heavy imbalance in PvP.
EvE and Darkfall for example will never go F2P... well... maybe, but that's the nail in the coffin then I guess ^^
Uh, EVE has had a 'F2P' option since before anyone knew what such things where. The difference is that it's structured very differently from the iniquitous "cash shops" for the F2P genre, and therefore causes few of the balance/gameplay issues that they do.
Not Even close. EVE is no where near F2P.. Someone is paying for that GTC even if it isn't you. Thats why it works.
The people who designed and then developed the F2P concept really know how to make you buy both when you don’t need to and when you do need to. But then that’s their job, these are highly paid professionals who work out how to get the customer to part with the most money. They have designed their cash making skinner box very well.
The people who designed and then developed P2P concept are acting exactly the same way. They're not saints. In fact, every store-bought boxed game is a potential scam. No-refund policy protects game stores and companies but never the players.
What stops P2P designers from making their core game short (but interesting enough to retain people), and packaging most of content in pieces as "expansion packs", and make you pay? That's not that different from F2P's item shop, is it? At least most F2P's have free updates and expansions. People who pay the same subscription fee but don't own expansions cannot compete with those who do. Subscription fee lets you use their server and game in P2P; in F2P that usage is free. They both sell content for money, just packaging it differently.
That's what I'm worrying about GW2. They can make core game short, but enticing you to buy a whole lot of expansions to keep up. F2P with free updates that sells in-game tradeable items will always be more fair than P2P that sell expansions. There is no absolute fairness in any of commercial mmo's if you care to dig deeper.
They both sell content for money, just packaging it differently.
The difference is it gets to be a hell of a lot pricer in f2p games than it ever does in a p2p one. Set fees are better far as I'm concerned because everyone playing is on a "level playing field" rather than what a lot of f2p games turn into which is those that spend the most - gain the most . Especially if the game has any meaningful PvP to speak of.
However, if p2p games are going to continue with thise new age bullshit of adding their own cash shop in addition to having to buy their product and sub to it then I suppose I would rather it went f2p than deal with these fools that want to make it p2p with a cash shop.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
However, if p2p games are going to continue with thise new age bullshit of adding their own cash shop in addition to having to buy their product and sub to it then I suppose I would rather it went f2p than deal with these fools that want to make it p2p with a cash shop.
Agreed. Why play a game that has both monthly fees and the F2P shop?
But there is actually a third model: B2P like Guildwars. They do sell some mini expansions and regular expansions but not items or stuff like that (but they do sell a PvP only skill package).
And GW2 might actually be the next big thing, if it does that might be how most future games will get their money.
It is actually hard to tell, I can see some games financed by adds too in the future, right now are the P2P games still ruling but F2P is getting more and more popular but what the future will bring is hard to even guess.
dont forget though in Guild wars 1 their was a ton of content in the main game then each expansion added a ton more. So with their b2p model it was well worth the value for GW and all expansions and a few cash shop stuff (thats perminant) 70 bucks-80 bucks vs around 180 bucks a year for a p2p game and its beat the f2p by 100x cheaper. If ya think im fully of it go do the math. Personally id love to see games do the B2p model more and follow in GW's footsteps as they truly did do all the right things to make a game popular and make it worth while to get their expansions. P2P is coming to an end though. Slowly. wont happen this year but over the next 2 years im sure we will see alot of interesting things happen to online games. 2011 is shaping up to unique year so far.
So the substandard wow clones go f2p. What a surprise. Meanwhile, wow's still raking in 150 mil+ per mo on sub fees. Make no mistake about it, real quality mmos will still be able to charge a fee. The substandard ones will go compete in f2p hell against a thousand other noname mmos. I wouldn't be surprised to see all current mmos with the exception of wow going f2p. Hopefully the next AAA MMO competitor will actually have a AAA MMO ready to compete for sub monies, not a single A mmo masquerading as a AAA.
However, if p2p games are going to continue with thise new age bullshit of adding their own cash shop in addition to having to buy their product and sub to it then I suppose I would rather it went f2p than deal with these fools that want to make it p2p with a cash shop.
Agreed. Why play a game that has both monthly fees and the F2P shop?
But there is actually a third model: B2P like Guildwars. They do sell some mini expansions and regular expansions but not items or stuff like that (but they do sell a PvP only skill package).
And GW2 might actually be the next big thing, if it does that might be how most future games will get their money.
It is actually hard to tell, I can see some games financed by adds too in the future, right now are the P2P games still ruling but F2P is getting more and more popular but what the future will bring is hard to even guess.
will only happen if there would be a huge drop on P2P n F2P MMOs, but the more reason to support GW2 - depended on how its done, I mean if its very frequent updates you have to pay for, it would be like a F2P game constant ask for your money for content.
now only reason Id really prefer P2P is that you dont get it thrown in your face all the time, buy this buy that. already feeling it abit in DDO - just restarted it, and sure made aware of the shop from outside - it have been made rather well in not being pushy, atleast so far.
now mini updates in EQ2 you d get for "free".... paying the monthly fee....so auto sub n just forget about it
havent played guildwars after it released, only during beta stages, but seemed ok expansion wise....not acting like mini updates. if they can keep it up for guildwars 2 and make an actual MMO, I hope it will be the only game with sub numbers to speak of....but doubt it :P free tend to make it easy on peeps to "let go"
Originally posted by Wickedjelly However, if p2p games are going to continue with thise new age bullshit of adding their own cash shop in addition to having to buy their product and sub to it then I suppose I would rather it went f2p than deal with these fools that want to make it p2p with a cash shop.
Agreed. Why play a game that has both monthly fees and the F2P shop?
But there is actually a third model: B2P like Guildwars. They do sell some mini expansions and regular expansions but not items or stuff like that (but they do sell a PvP only skill package).
And GW2 might actually be the next big thing, if it does that might be how most future games will get their money.
It is actually hard to tell, I can see some games financed by adds too in the future, right now are the P2P games still ruling but F2P is getting more and more popular but what the future will bring is hard to even guess.
Is what Lotro is doing really that much different than the guild wars set up? You can buy the content outright and its yours forever. Granted im sure buying everything in Lotro content wise will cost more than buying gw+expansions, but lotro is also more expensive to develop and maintain than gw1 at least.
People who promote these type of threads are generally ones on low incomes, poorly educated, and spend far too much time in games that they won't spend a cent on the F2P title anyway.
Project Entropia has been F2P for a long time, and it just doesn't work. Think titles that make a difference will go F2P? Never! F2P games only work when there are no plans for long term development of the title - ie, its dead in the water. They will throw a dev or two at it when something needs to be fixed or to add a very basic amount of content. You cannot run an evolving title on a F2P model. Anyone who graduate from high school would understand this.
So you F2P trolls, go finish school or stop working in retail where you have no idea about how a proper business works. F2P will never be successful for a strong, well developed and supproted title. Go back in your caves and keep living in the dark.
And saying anything NCSoft produce since Lineage 2 is good is just stupid.
Is what Lotro is doing really that much different than the guild wars set up? You can buy the content outright and its yours forever. Granted im sure buying everything in Lotro content wise will cost more than buying gw+expansions, but lotro is also more expensive to develop and maintain than gw1 at least.
Actually, not sure right now. But you buy GW, in LOTRO you can either buy it or start for free. And you don't have to pay for unlocking a class in GW, just for expansions and a few mini expansions.
If there will be a great difference or not is actually rather hard to say until we actually seen the cashshop.
I do have a feeling that buying everything in LOTRO will be rather expensive. GW is made on a lower budget but buying the complete GW box isn't expansive at all.
The big difference will be if they sell items and xp pots.
have fun playing your awfully low quality mega-grinds with terribly gamebreaking cash shop...it will be the perfect time to jump to consoles, now they are focusing more and more in online gaming.
I would much rather pay a monthly sub and get a full working supported game, than spend £££ on foocking items and content unlocks! This is rediculous, f2p make their money by selling virtual items, you will end up paying a lot more in a f2p mmo if you want to get anywhere, than £8.99 a month.
Pay for a combined playing internet package: Starcraft 2 - Diablo 3 - WOW - the new MMO:
Unlimited combo access in e-sports, co-op modes, competitions, achievements (cross games), inter game chats, interplay guild rankings etc...
It's the wet dream of Morhaime. It will depend on the influence of Bobby how much it will cost.
I would go for 25 dollars for the complete package. (with the individual games going from 5 dollars to 15 dollars (latest MMO).
EA will follow that path.
The FTP market will be complete crap in a few years and all decently developped AAA titles (all styles) will be included in pay to play packages through the internet (even solo games).
At the same time it kills off organised piracy of non mmo's too.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
People who promote these type of threads are generally ones on low incomes, poorly educated, and spend far too much time in games that they won't spend a cent on the F2P title anyway.
Project Entropia has been F2P for a long time, and it just doesn't work. Think titles that make a difference will go F2P? Never! F2P games only work when there are no plans for long term development of the title - ie, its dead in the water. They will throw a dev or two at it when something needs to be fixed or to add a very basic amount of content. You cannot run an evolving title on a F2P model. Anyone who graduate from high school would understand this.
So you F2P trolls, go finish school or stop working in retail where you have no idea about how a proper business works. F2P will never be successful for a strong, well developed and supproted title. Go back in your caves and keep living in the dark.
And saying anything NCSoft produce since Lineage 2 is good is just stupid.
You're actually the one sounding uneducated about the industry right now. I have subscrptions to a few MMOs and a lifetime subscription to LotRO, but I also understand that subscriptions can not be it forever. The current pricing model of $15 a month was created over 10 years ago. When it wass made no one could have predicted that it would eventually become the industry standard that it is today. Really $15 a month was a way to allow for this type of niche gaming and to keep the servers up while they did it.
However, it has become the industry standard and there is huge problem with it. It has no room for change. Competition keeps the price from ever going above $15 a month or else players will not play the game with the higher price. Investors meanwhile, generally keep the price from going lower which means they lose out on a market that resfues to pay that much money. In short, the subscription fee does not suit our current market. There is nearly nothing else in this economy that does not offer different payment models for different services.
Everything you have said about F2P systems is rhetoric that is continuously spread by the ignorant who know little of current MMO production. First of all you seem to lump all alternative payment models in with some system where everything is run by item malls. This is not what most people are talking about nowadays. Right now there are a lot of alternative models out there that do not rely 100% on a subscription fee.
First, there is the Guild Wars model. This model requires you to buy the disk, but is free after that. Then there is the DDO/LotRO model. Which this type of payment plan the game keeps a subscription fee as an option. It also has a free to play option that is limited, but can be bought off through microtransactions. Finally, there is the APB model which has a subscription fee for a month of unlimited access or allows you to buy hours like a pay as you go cell phone.
Two of the above are usually considered F2P by a lot of people becaue of the fact that there is a way to play without any payment, however restricted it may be in some cases. However people like to only think of things based on a model usually used by Korean games. The same can be said about Item Malls. A lot of people when they hear Item Mall jump on the idea that it means you need to pay to win. However, as DDO has proven, this is not always the case. In DDO players can not buy the best gear in the game in any way, shape or form.
Finally, there is this ignorant idea that having an alternative payment model is only usable by those MMOs that are dying or dead and that no development ever gets done on those. This has been used as a basis for arguments stating that by switching to a new model LotRO must be dying. This has again been proven false. Since the switch in models DDO has seen a huge increase in players and revenue. In point of fact, it now gets over 5x as much revenue as before thanks to its new model. This, in turn. has increased the scheduel for producing content. Compared to before the switch, DDO has seen a huge ammount of content released over a short amount of time since the new model.
Now are any of these perfect models? Doubtful. It will take time to come up with the perfect model, even if one can be found. However, it seems to be becoming obvious that the current model that is used is far from perfect itself. While you may denounce those who don't want to pay for a subscription fee, the truth is that those people would bring in money through alternative systems and there are a lot of them out there.
Right now there is a major shift occuring in MMOs. $15 a month can not remain the standard forever. It just doesn't take into account the market we live in. Those who deny this have as little sense about business as those who think MMOs should be entirely free. Instead of insulting others and thinking that they have to finish high school in order to understand, you should focus on analyzing the actual situation of what's going on in the industry.
I would much rather pay a monthly sub and get a full working supported game, than spend £££ on foocking items and content unlocks! This is rediculous, f2p make their money by selling virtual items, you will end up paying a lot more in a f2p mmo if you want to get anywhere, than £8.99 a month.
The only true f2p game is GW, and soon GW2.
Which is exactly why a model like DDO or LotRO works so well. It has both options. For someone like you or me it has the ability to let us pay per a month and not have to worry about anything. However, at the same time it can bring in a lot of business from people who would rather pay through MTs. We still get everything that same way, but the game gets an increased revenue and in the end that means more development.
Again, I don't think DDO and LotRO have a perfect model by any means, but it is a step towards a more inclusive payment model and that means its a step in the right direction.
They said they had 5 times the number of players on prime time a few months after the switch.
That's something completely different.
I am one of those "1.000.000" new players: I downloaded the game again (played it already 3 years ago for 2 months), I logged in 4 times over a period of 5 months and that's it.
Playing 10 hours for 5 months is not exactly gaining much to Turbine but I guess together with my brother (2 logs in), I can be counted towards those "active players".
DDO was down to what 20K players ? Times 5 is 100K. .... in its laucnhing period of the first 6 months.
If you do NOT pay you do NOT invest too much in it too and your playing will be interrupted the moment someone calls out "Booh" on the MMO market.
The only solution is offering interesting combo package to very good games, not the route of taking AAA developped titles and put a "free" sticker on it.
The content of "free" DDO was already prepared at launch: you can't develop content in 6 to 9 months time from scratch to finish.
And Turbine didn't publish any revenue either.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Honestly I like the F2P model that Entropia Universe has... I mean it has a way for the dude who's playing completely for free to make his way (hard as shit, I know because I'm doing it) but most wouldn't go F2P because it's allot easier to put in a little money, buy a gun, buy some ammo... kill some shit, rinse and repeat until you're self-sufficient, it works, the game itself even supports players cashing in their PED for US $ (got an aquaintance who does that). Honestly... I'd love this model to become the industry standard because of two reasons: A) it allows growth of the game (Entropia Universe is growing, slowly but growing) and it allows both F2P and P2P, you want fast thrills ? put in some cash but if you don't have the money (like I do, jobs aren't easy to come by in my country and they usually involve allot of work for little financial return) to do this you can still (if dedicated enough) earn your keep and even help out with the economy (PED comes exclusively from aquistion with real world money so even though you're playing for free the work you do keeps the wheels turning ever so slightly).
They said they had 5 times the number of players on prime time a few months after the switch.
That's something completely different.
I am one of those "1.000.000" new players: I downloaded the game again (played it already 3 years ago for 2 months), I logged in 4 times over a period of 5 months and that's it.
Playing 10 hours for 5 months is not exactly gaining much to Turbine but I guess together with my brother (2 logs in), I can be counted towards those "active players".
DDO was down to what 20K players ? Times 5 is 100K. .... in its laucnhing period of the first 6 months.
If you do NOT pay you do NOT invest too much in it too and your playing will be interrupted the moment someone calls out "Booh" on the MMO market.
The only solution is offering interesting combo package to very good games, not the route of taking AAA developped titles and put a "free" sticker on it.
The content of "free" DDO was already prepared at launch: you can't develop content in 6 to 9 months time from scratch to finish.
And Turbine didn't publish any revenue either.
They actually said both. They had 5x revenue, 5x primetime concurrent and10x unique logins a month. And believe what you like. No matter what the numbers are the development team has been adding content at a much quicker pace since the change than before it. This is indicative of a game that is working not dying.
Honestly I like the F2P model that Entropia Universe has... I mean it has a way for the dude who's playing completely for free to make his way (hard as shit, I know because I'm doing it) but most wouldn't go F2P because it's allot easier to put in a little money, buy a gun, buy some ammo... kill some shit, rinse and repeat until you're self-sufficient, it works, the game itself even supports players cashing in their PED for US $ (got an aquaintance who does that). Honestly... I'd love this model to become the industry standard because of two reasons: A) it allows growth of the game (Entropia Universe is growing, slowly but growing) and it allows both F2P and P2P, you want fast thrills ? put in some cash but if you don't have the money (like I do, jobs aren't easy to come by in my country and they usually involve allot of work for little financial return) to do this you can still (if dedicated enough) earn your keep and even help out with the economy (PED comes exclusively from aquistion with real world money so even though you're playing for free the work you do keeps the wheels turning ever so slightly).
The problem with this model tends to be development and item shops that are too much. Entropia's system doesn't bring in the developers enough predictable income to continue to develop the game. In addition since there is no subscription base the only way to make money is through item malls. This makes it so that having people buy stuff is more important than anything else and means that people can "buy their way to the top."
As a business model it doesn't work beyond the niche games where it is employed.
F2P is on the rise but ask yourself this...what happens when everyone is F2P? Will they still have the rebirth of players? Will they still rake in the cash?
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
They said they had 5 times the number of players on prime time a few months after the switch.
That's something completely different.
I am one of those "1.000.000" new players: I downloaded the game again (played it already 3 years ago for 2 months), I logged in 4 times over a period of 5 months and that's it.
Playing 10 hours for 5 months is not exactly gaining much to Turbine but I guess together with my brother (2 logs in), I can be counted towards those "active players".
DDO was down to what 20K players ? Times 5 is 100K. .... in its laucnhing period of the first 6 months.
If you do NOT pay you do NOT invest too much in it too and your playing will be interrupted the moment someone calls out "Booh" on the MMO market.
The only solution is offering interesting combo package to very good games, not the route of taking AAA developped titles and put a "free" sticker on it.
The content of "free" DDO was already prepared at launch: you can't develop content in 6 to 9 months time from scratch to finish.
And Turbine didn't publish any revenue either.
They actually said both. They had 5x revenue, 5x primetime concurrent and10x unique logins a month. And believe what you like. No matter what the numbers are the development team has been adding content at a much quicker pace since the change than before it. This is indicative of a game that is working not dying.
Facts and figures please from independant sources (like an audited financial report) would help. Unless you get that, it's the usual "good news" show of any new (re)launch.
And DDO play on Xfire is still not showing up in that top 50 of games played (I know Xfire is inaccurate, but I wouldn't call it a "massive" success either).
The bottom line is that they changed their model of a subs based game.
A game that was a subs based AAA title and goes free gains momentum of course, but I don't buy automaticcaly the long term 5x revenue fairy tale either.
There was a reason that game X was situated in the P2P market and trying to "solve" things by having camouflaged income from players is not a guarantee to success.
Adding various kinds of different players (free, subs paying, lifers, founders, content unlockers, buyers of expansion kits, ...) is really dividing those players even more:
Your middle and end game will consist of a very narrow bottleneck of player willing to pay to get more. While in the beginning levels, the masses of uninterested "looking around" kids will populate the show.
- The result will be LESS content for higher (divided) players in the long run.
And like I said: it takes MUCH longer to have a new content cycle than 6 to 9 months. That DDO content was prepared before the "free to play" model was launched, but they had to make a choice: launch it with the knowledge the game needed to close down OR become free to play.
The content launched had little to do with new income. It was planned to show the game was 'reborn".
I simply think it is the last straw of survival: players simply do not want to pay in not so excellent games (whatever their format).
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Comments
personally i love F2p games! but, id rather get B2p game then a p2p. why? because no monthly subs and its mine for good. hell i bought guild wars trilogy and eye of the north and sum cash shop stuff. i love the system they came up with and i plan to buy GW2 and all expansions the come with as well. why? why the hell not..lol its a awsome system and they way these games are made is outstanding as you can acheive so much in them and have a ton of fun doing so. i also plan to buy alganon soon. (i know not much of a game) but i had a bit of fun with the trial and its only 20 bucks and its b2p aswell so i dont mind dishing out the money.and for free to play perfect worlds system i like the most u can be a free player but have all the item mall goodies without spending 1 penny. I'd say boys a new generation of online games is here and u will have sum crappy ones but theirs always a few that will make ya go * This cant be real! I love it! * . just my 2 cents.
Um, no. P2P is also a game mechanic. The real cash-bought expansion content is in the game. You need it to advance.
My F2P character earns his gears and money inside the game. Btw, he also earns cash-shop items INSIDE the game by trading for them with in-game gold.
So the payment model doesn't matter to me at all.
In-game economy and smart trading are part of gameplay, learn to master it.
This is really cutting hairs, if I click on something out of game and pay, or grind to pay the only difference is the amount of clicking.
F2P games are designed to allow you to avoid paying by just playing a lot…..that’s what you are saying. Do you really think a F2P MMO would be designed where you can escape paying by grinding? Sure you can get yourself some points to buy stuff in the cash shop, that system is there to ease players who don’t like cash shops into the habit of buying. E.g. ‘If I just paid for a few more points I could get that item!’.
F2P games often start you with things like health potions which top your health up to max when you are hit. That runs out after a few levels. You made enough points to buy half of a new one, not going to cost much just to buy the other half is it? The MMO is designed to make you feel you are earning your crust by grinding, so you deserve to actually spend ‘a little’ money on your character don’t you?
The F2P revenue model uses psychology similar to that which was used to design slot machines and casino games. You have invested a stake in your MMO with the money you have put in so far, surely its worth a few dollars more?
The people who designed and then developed the F2P concept really know how to make you buy both when you don’t need to and when you do need to. But then that’s their job, these are highly paid professionals who work out how to get the customer to part with the most money. They have designed their cash making skinner box very well.
Uh, EVE has had a 'F2P' option since before anyone knew what such things where. The difference is that it's structured very differently from the iniquitous "cash shops" for the F2P genre, and therefore causes few of the balance/gameplay issues that they do.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Not Even close. EVE is no where near F2P.. Someone is paying for that GTC even if it isn't you. Thats why it works.
The people who designed and then developed P2P concept are acting exactly the same way. They're not saints. In fact, every store-bought boxed game is a potential scam. No-refund policy protects game stores and companies but never the players.
What stops P2P designers from making their core game short (but interesting enough to retain people), and packaging most of content in pieces as "expansion packs", and make you pay? That's not that different from F2P's item shop, is it? At least most F2P's have free updates and expansions. People who pay the same subscription fee but don't own expansions cannot compete with those who do. Subscription fee lets you use their server and game in P2P; in F2P that usage is free. They both sell content for money, just packaging it differently.
That's what I'm worrying about GW2. They can make core game short, but enticing you to buy a whole lot of expansions to keep up. F2P with free updates that sells in-game tradeable items will always be more fair than P2P that sell expansions. There is no absolute fairness in any of commercial mmo's if you care to dig deeper.
The difference is it gets to be a hell of a lot pricer in f2p games than it ever does in a p2p one. Set fees are better far as I'm concerned because everyone playing is on a "level playing field" rather than what a lot of f2p games turn into which is those that spend the most - gain the most . Especially if the game has any meaningful PvP to speak of.
However, if p2p games are going to continue with thise new age bullshit of adding their own cash shop in addition to having to buy their product and sub to it then I suppose I would rather it went f2p than deal with these fools that want to make it p2p with a cash shop.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Agreed. Why play a game that has both monthly fees and the F2P shop?
But there is actually a third model: B2P like Guildwars. They do sell some mini expansions and regular expansions but not items or stuff like that (but they do sell a PvP only skill package).
And GW2 might actually be the next big thing, if it does that might be how most future games will get their money.
It is actually hard to tell, I can see some games financed by adds too in the future, right now are the P2P games still ruling but F2P is getting more and more popular but what the future will bring is hard to even guess.
dont forget though in Guild wars 1 their was a ton of content in the main game then each expansion added a ton more. So with their b2p model it was well worth the value for GW and all expansions and a few cash shop stuff (thats perminant) 70 bucks-80 bucks vs around 180 bucks a year for a p2p game and its beat the f2p by 100x cheaper. If ya think im fully of it go do the math. Personally id love to see games do the B2p model more and follow in GW's footsteps as they truly did do all the right things to make a game popular and make it worth while to get their expansions. P2P is coming to an end though. Slowly. wont happen this year but over the next 2 years im sure we will see alot of interesting things happen to online games. 2011 is shaping up to unique year so far.
So the substandard wow clones go f2p. What a surprise. Meanwhile, wow's still raking in 150 mil+ per mo on sub fees. Make no mistake about it, real quality mmos will still be able to charge a fee. The substandard ones will go compete in f2p hell against a thousand other noname mmos. I wouldn't be surprised to see all current mmos with the exception of wow going f2p. Hopefully the next AAA MMO competitor will actually have a AAA MMO ready to compete for sub monies, not a single A mmo masquerading as a AAA.
will only happen if there would be a huge drop on P2P n F2P MMOs, but the more reason to support GW2 - depended on how its done, I mean if its very frequent updates you have to pay for, it would be like a F2P game constant ask for your money for content.
now only reason Id really prefer P2P is that you dont get it thrown in your face all the time, buy this buy that. already feeling it abit in DDO - just restarted it, and sure made aware of the shop from outside - it have been made rather well in not being pushy, atleast so far.
now mini updates in EQ2 you d get for "free".... paying the monthly fee....so auto sub n just forget about it
havent played guildwars after it released, only during beta stages, but seemed ok expansion wise....not acting like mini updates. if they can keep it up for guildwars 2 and make an actual MMO, I hope it will be the only game with sub numbers to speak of....but doubt it :P free tend to make it easy on peeps to "let go"
Agreed. Why play a game that has both monthly fees and the F2P shop?
But there is actually a third model: B2P like Guildwars. They do sell some mini expansions and regular expansions but not items or stuff like that (but they do sell a PvP only skill package).
And GW2 might actually be the next big thing, if it does that might be how most future games will get their money.
It is actually hard to tell, I can see some games financed by adds too in the future, right now are the P2P games still ruling but F2P is getting more and more popular but what the future will bring is hard to even guess.
Is what Lotro is doing really that much different than the guild wars set up? You can buy the content outright and its yours forever. Granted im sure buying everything in Lotro content wise will cost more than buying gw+expansions, but lotro is also more expensive to develop and maintain than gw1 at least.People who promote these type of threads are generally ones on low incomes, poorly educated, and spend far too much time in games that they won't spend a cent on the F2P title anyway.
Project Entropia has been F2P for a long time, and it just doesn't work. Think titles that make a difference will go F2P? Never! F2P games only work when there are no plans for long term development of the title - ie, its dead in the water. They will throw a dev or two at it when something needs to be fixed or to add a very basic amount of content. You cannot run an evolving title on a F2P model. Anyone who graduate from high school would understand this.
So you F2P trolls, go finish school or stop working in retail where you have no idea about how a proper business works. F2P will never be successful for a strong, well developed and supproted title. Go back in your caves and keep living in the dark.
And saying anything NCSoft produce since Lineage 2 is good is just stupid.
Actually, not sure right now. But you buy GW, in LOTRO you can either buy it or start for free. And you don't have to pay for unlocking a class in GW, just for expansions and a few mini expansions.
If there will be a great difference or not is actually rather hard to say until we actually seen the cashshop.
I do have a feeling that buying everything in LOTRO will be rather expensive. GW is made on a lower budget but buying the complete GW box isn't expansive at all.
The big difference will be if they sell items and xp pots.
death of the P2P model?
more like death of the PC MMO genre
have fun playing your awfully low quality mega-grinds with terribly gamebreaking cash shop...it will be the perfect time to jump to consoles, now they are focusing more and more in online gaming.
I would much rather pay a monthly sub and get a full working supported game, than spend £££ on foocking items and content unlocks! This is rediculous, f2p make their money by selling virtual items, you will end up paying a lot more in a f2p mmo if you want to get anywhere, than £8.99 a month.
The only true f2p game is GW, and soon GW2.
~Awesome Tr!x
BattleNet will add a third option:
Pay for a combined playing internet package: Starcraft 2 - Diablo 3 - WOW - the new MMO:
Unlimited combo access in e-sports, co-op modes, competitions, achievements (cross games), inter game chats, interplay guild rankings etc...
It's the wet dream of Morhaime. It will depend on the influence of Bobby how much it will cost.
I would go for 25 dollars for the complete package. (with the individual games going from 5 dollars to 15 dollars (latest MMO).
EA will follow that path.
The FTP market will be complete crap in a few years and all decently developped AAA titles (all styles) will be included in pay to play packages through the internet (even solo games).
At the same time it kills off organised piracy of non mmo's too.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
You're actually the one sounding uneducated about the industry right now. I have subscrptions to a few MMOs and a lifetime subscription to LotRO, but I also understand that subscriptions can not be it forever. The current pricing model of $15 a month was created over 10 years ago. When it wass made no one could have predicted that it would eventually become the industry standard that it is today. Really $15 a month was a way to allow for this type of niche gaming and to keep the servers up while they did it.
However, it has become the industry standard and there is huge problem with it. It has no room for change. Competition keeps the price from ever going above $15 a month or else players will not play the game with the higher price. Investors meanwhile, generally keep the price from going lower which means they lose out on a market that resfues to pay that much money. In short, the subscription fee does not suit our current market. There is nearly nothing else in this economy that does not offer different payment models for different services.
Everything you have said about F2P systems is rhetoric that is continuously spread by the ignorant who know little of current MMO production. First of all you seem to lump all alternative payment models in with some system where everything is run by item malls. This is not what most people are talking about nowadays. Right now there are a lot of alternative models out there that do not rely 100% on a subscription fee.
First, there is the Guild Wars model. This model requires you to buy the disk, but is free after that. Then there is the DDO/LotRO model. Which this type of payment plan the game keeps a subscription fee as an option. It also has a free to play option that is limited, but can be bought off through microtransactions. Finally, there is the APB model which has a subscription fee for a month of unlimited access or allows you to buy hours like a pay as you go cell phone.
Two of the above are usually considered F2P by a lot of people becaue of the fact that there is a way to play without any payment, however restricted it may be in some cases. However people like to only think of things based on a model usually used by Korean games. The same can be said about Item Malls. A lot of people when they hear Item Mall jump on the idea that it means you need to pay to win. However, as DDO has proven, this is not always the case. In DDO players can not buy the best gear in the game in any way, shape or form.
Finally, there is this ignorant idea that having an alternative payment model is only usable by those MMOs that are dying or dead and that no development ever gets done on those. This has been used as a basis for arguments stating that by switching to a new model LotRO must be dying. This has again been proven false. Since the switch in models DDO has seen a huge increase in players and revenue. In point of fact, it now gets over 5x as much revenue as before thanks to its new model. This, in turn. has increased the scheduel for producing content. Compared to before the switch, DDO has seen a huge ammount of content released over a short amount of time since the new model.
Now are any of these perfect models? Doubtful. It will take time to come up with the perfect model, even if one can be found. However, it seems to be becoming obvious that the current model that is used is far from perfect itself. While you may denounce those who don't want to pay for a subscription fee, the truth is that those people would bring in money through alternative systems and there are a lot of them out there.
Right now there is a major shift occuring in MMOs. $15 a month can not remain the standard forever. It just doesn't take into account the market we live in. Those who deny this have as little sense about business as those who think MMOs should be entirely free. Instead of insulting others and thinking that they have to finish high school in order to understand, you should focus on analyzing the actual situation of what's going on in the industry.
Which is exactly why a model like DDO or LotRO works so well. It has both options. For someone like you or me it has the ability to let us pay per a month and not have to worry about anything. However, at the same time it can bring in a lot of business from people who would rather pay through MTs. We still get everything that same way, but the game gets an increased revenue and in the end that means more development.
Again, I don't think DDO and LotRO have a perfect model by any means, but it is a step towards a more inclusive payment model and that means its a step in the right direction.
I don't buy the 5X revenue from DDO.
They said they had 5 times the number of players on prime time a few months after the switch.
That's something completely different.
I am one of those "1.000.000" new players: I downloaded the game again (played it already 3 years ago for 2 months), I logged in 4 times over a period of 5 months and that's it.
Playing 10 hours for 5 months is not exactly gaining much to Turbine but I guess together with my brother (2 logs in), I can be counted towards those "active players".
DDO was down to what 20K players ? Times 5 is 100K. .... in its laucnhing period of the first 6 months.
If you do NOT pay you do NOT invest too much in it too and your playing will be interrupted the moment someone calls out "Booh" on the MMO market.
The only solution is offering interesting combo package to very good games, not the route of taking AAA developped titles and put a "free" sticker on it.
The content of "free" DDO was already prepared at launch: you can't develop content in 6 to 9 months time from scratch to finish.
And Turbine didn't publish any revenue either.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Honestly I like the F2P model that Entropia Universe has... I mean it has a way for the dude who's playing completely for free to make his way (hard as shit, I know because I'm doing it) but most wouldn't go F2P because it's allot easier to put in a little money, buy a gun, buy some ammo... kill some shit, rinse and repeat until you're self-sufficient, it works, the game itself even supports players cashing in their PED for US $ (got an aquaintance who does that). Honestly... I'd love this model to become the industry standard because of two reasons: A) it allows growth of the game (Entropia Universe is growing, slowly but growing) and
it allows both F2P and P2P, you want fast thrills ? put in some cash but if you don't have the money (like I do, jobs aren't easy to come by in my country and they usually involve allot of work for little financial return) to do this you can still (if dedicated enough) earn your keep and even help out with the economy (PED comes exclusively from aquistion with real world money so even though you're playing for free the work you do keeps the wheels turning ever so slightly).
They actually said both. They had 5x revenue, 5x primetime concurrent and10x unique logins a month. And believe what you like. No matter what the numbers are the development team has been adding content at a much quicker pace since the change than before it. This is indicative of a game that is working not dying.
This is an article about the presentation where this information came from. http://doublebuffered.com/2010/05/13/login-2010-how-turbine-supercharged-ddo-by-adopting-a-hybrid-business-model/
The problem with this model tends to be development and item shops that are too much. Entropia's system doesn't bring in the developers enough predictable income to continue to develop the game. In addition since there is no subscription base the only way to make money is through item malls. This makes it so that having people buy stuff is more important than anything else and means that people can "buy their way to the top."
As a business model it doesn't work beyond the niche games where it is employed.
F2P is on the rise but ask yourself this...what happens when everyone is F2P? Will they still have the rebirth of players? Will they still rake in the cash?
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Facts and figures please from independant sources (like an audited financial report) would help. Unless you get that, it's the usual "good news" show of any new (re)launch.
And DDO play on Xfire is still not showing up in that top 50 of games played (I know Xfire is inaccurate, but I wouldn't call it a "massive" success either).
The bottom line is that they changed their model of a subs based game.
A game that was a subs based AAA title and goes free gains momentum of course, but I don't buy automaticcaly the long term 5x revenue fairy tale either.
There was a reason that game X was situated in the P2P market and trying to "solve" things by having camouflaged income from players is not a guarantee to success.
Adding various kinds of different players (free, subs paying, lifers, founders, content unlockers, buyers of expansion kits, ...) is really dividing those players even more:
Your middle and end game will consist of a very narrow bottleneck of player willing to pay to get more. While in the beginning levels, the masses of uninterested "looking around" kids will populate the show.
- The result will be LESS content for higher (divided) players in the long run.
And like I said: it takes MUCH longer to have a new content cycle than 6 to 9 months. That DDO content was prepared before the "free to play" model was launched, but they had to make a choice: launch it with the knowledge the game needed to close down OR become free to play.
The content launched had little to do with new income. It was planned to show the game was 'reborn".
I simply think it is the last straw of survival: players simply do not want to pay in not so excellent games (whatever their format).
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk