It's a good article and, like the author, I am interested to see how Bioware adapts its single-player storytelling expertise to the MMO genre because it doesn't seem like a great fit to me. As I see it the main challenge is how to keep players interested once the story is over because it is the gameplay rather than the story which will give the game the sort of replay value that we traditionally associate with MMOs.
But perhaps Bioware are aiming for something else, a short-term high quality MMO experience rather than the long-term low quality experience we are more used to seeing.
Imo let bioware try this route. We would never know for sure if this kind of mmo will success if we don't see it in action. We're just making assumptions. So yeah I give credits to bioware for trying something new. If they fail bad for them, if they succed however that's better for us too. Not many companies have the balls to go against the norm.
Bioware are doing this for a number of reasons, they get to recover a decent ammount of cash because yes single players can pick up the title and play for a few months have a blast and then throw the game away. Some may stay and play on , but bioware have an additional revenue stream.
A secondly because they want to create and add a level of immersion for players who like the Star Wars IP and also players who like to enjoy the game (no not everyone needs to beat the game in a week).
I think it is a win win and if they add the standard features with lots of content up front , it will be one for all to enjoy.
Some will hate it but guess what who cares, this game will be a great success because it is being developed by a professional outfit who know what they want to do and are sticking to it.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I still remember much of those encounters because of the great characters, wonderful dialog, the challenges, the disasters, the recoveries and the eventual victories. A fantastic story with a great script...a script that was written by us, as gamers, as we played.
I might not remember the dialog or characters in the quest lines I had to complete to get there, but I sure as hell remember the dialog between my guild mates, and the characters within the guild, and the community at large on my server. That goes for every MMO I have played going all the way back to Meridian 59 and Ultima Online. The players themselves are capable of providing a compelling and engaging narrative all on their own.
The characters and stories that the players bring with them is a key part of the fabric of an MMO, and should never be forgotten when considering why people like these games in the first place. Sure, we have progression, levels, skills, items and loot, and for some that is appealing in and of itself (see Farmville or Mafia Wars for proof of that!), but the thing that sets an MMO apart is how you interact with others around you. Whether that interaction is positive or negative doesn't really matter, it means we are all making a story for ourselves (and others) as we go along.
That story might be small (like a wipe in a pick-up-group) or it might be huge and effect many thousand of gamers (like a scam or major corporate collapse in EVE), it might be a personal story, like the first time you reached a certain area or level, or it might be a shared story like a guild racing for a server first kill, but it is a story. You can't really deny that. You might forget it, dismiss it, or take it for granted, but I'd wager your game experience would be far poorer without it.
For every quest text you might skip, there is a funny character you met while playing, a strange situation you found yourself in, an inglorious failure, or a heroic recovery from certain doom. Even when playing alone in an MMO, you are still surrounded by other players. You still share those stories. Think about it..how many of the MMO stories you chose to share with your friends are purely about what happened while you were soling a quest, and how many involve the antics, heroics or stupidity of a friend or another player?
Again, I'd wager it's far more likely to be the latter on any given occasion...
...it is also what sets an MMO apart from a single player game. Our experiences in MMOs often resonate with us more, or for longer, because they are inherently a shared experience...
...so while it might be quite right to say that MMOs have yet to develop mechanics capable of delivering the same narrative drive for the individual as a good single player game, it is doing the genre a disservice to forget about the elements unique to the MMO environment that allow for all the great stories we, as players, create for ourselves.
....
Stop forcing single player mechanic into MMO gameplay.
Why old school MMOs didnt have quests ? Because you and players around you create the quests. You are telling your own story together with interactive world and real people , not NPCs
I couldn't agree more. I don't want to be scripted.
Some day we'll be logging in not to play, but to see what our characters are doing according to what the game companies script them to do. It's actually that way now, it's just that most of the button monkeys don't realise it yet.
Having story lines present in modern mmorpgs simply adds to the experience not takes away from it. Unless you're completely incapable of any imagination or creativity on your own why would having storylines included in your game be anything but a welcomed addition rather than this nonsense that it somehow takes away from an mmorpg?
Does having storylines somehow destroy your own level of creativity and imagination? I will never understand this notion that because some mmos try to have more depth to their creation and story this somehow limits an individual's capability to create their own stories and ideas within the confines of the mmo.
Really makes no sense at all. I'm so tired of this less is more argument being made.
I think you might not realize how they are presenting the story.
Imagine if you were playing WoW and rolled a Hunter. You would start in the Hunter starting area. Most - if not all - quests would be Hunter quests. If your friends at the same time - they could not start in the same area with you - unless they all rolled Hunters as well. Even if you could travel to your friend's starting area (in SWTOR, a different planet), once you got there the quest would be for his class, not yours.
Which in and of itself means that there is not much freedom in SW:ToR right from the get go. ::sigh::
But perhaps Bioware are aiming for something else, a short-term high quality MMO experience rather than the long-term low quality experience we are more used to seeing.
I think when we see what their plans are for payment - we will be able to determine their philosophy in that area.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I still remember much of those encounters because of the great characters, wonderful dialog, the challenges, the disasters, the recoveries and the eventual victories. A fantastic story with a great script...a script that was written by us, as gamers, as we played.
I might not remember the dialog or characters in the quest lines I had to complete to get there, but I sure as hell remember the dialog between my guild mates, and the characters within the guild, and the community at large on my server. That goes for every MMO I have played going all the way back to Meridian 59 and Ultima Online. The players themselves are capable of providing a compelling and engaging narrative all on their own.
The characters and stories that the players bring with them is a key part of the fabric of an MMO, and should never be forgotten when considering why people like these games in the first place. Sure, we have progression, levels, skills, items and loot, and for some that is appealing in and of itself (see Farmville or Mafia Wars for proof of that!), but the thing that sets an MMO apart is how you interact with others around you. Whether that interaction is positive or negative doesn't really matter, it means we are all making a story for ourselves (and others) as we go along.
That story might be small (like a wipe in a pick-up-group) or it might be huge and effect many thousand of gamers (like a scam or major corporate collapse in EVE), it might be a personal story, like the first time you reached a certain area or level, or it might be a shared story like a guild racing for a server first kill, but it is a story. You can't really deny that. You might forget it, dismiss it, or take it for granted, but I'd wager your game experience would be far poorer without it.
For every quest text you might skip, there is a funny character you met while playing, a strange situation you found yourself in, an inglorious failure, or a heroic recovery from certain doom. Even when playing alone in an MMO, you are still surrounded by other players. You still share those stories. Think about it..how many of the MMO stories you chose to share with your friends are purely about what happened while you were soling a quest, and how many involve the antics, heroics or stupidity of a friend or another player?
Again, I'd wager it's far more likely to be the latter on any given occasion...
...it is also what sets an MMO apart from a single player game. Our experiences in MMOs often resonate with us more, or for longer, because they are inherently a shared experience...
...so while it might be quite right to say that MMOs have yet to develop mechanics capable of delivering the same narrative drive for the individual as a good single player game, it is doing the genre a disservice to forget about the elements unique to the MMO environment that allow for all the great stories we, as players, create for ourselves.
....
Stop forcing single player mechanic into MMO gameplay.
Why old school MMOs didnt have quests ? Because you and players around you create the quests. You are telling your own story together with interactive world and real people , not NPCs
I have had really poor experiences with the role play community.... In my opinion they are the snobs of the playground. Their poop don't stink, their story is always the best, and if you don't RP up to their standards you are basically left out... Plus, it's a game, not a damn chat room I shouldn't have to type my own quests and story out on a keyboard, the game developers should be telling the story of the world/setting, not a bunch of over-imaginative kiddies that change the rules/story as they go along.
The problem is that what happens at a raid or a pvp battleground is not much of a story and it usually falls into the catagory of an anecdote or occurence.
Given the games I've tried, the closest things that I've encountered to an actual player driven story happened in Lineage 2.
that is because Lineage 2 is not a quest based game. Those who are a bit shortsighted might see the game as "grind grind pvp grind pvp grind"
But what it usually is about is who is griefing/scamming who and what they do about it and a short war and then a truce but then some player breaks the truce and there is another war and then an alliance is made but someone in the alliance is a spy there ends up being a negotiation but then so and so is sick of it and wants to make a group that is always at war with party B...
That's more about player driven story and drama.
The problem with some of those player driven stories is that some players take them way too serioulsy and the experience becomes actual drama but taking place in a virtual game world over being a game. Some people thrive off of that but I don't find it healthy.
As for the example given, that is probably because some people actually ARE wired to read the story taht is given and some are just "loot/level" oriented.
It then boils down to the type of person you are. Are you "reader" or are you more of an "action" type of person. Believe it or not there are people who read and enjoy the greater canvas that these games can provide. And of course there are those who are in it for heart pounding action. Maybe some are both?
In any case, me showing up at a raid and recounting what happened at the raid might be amusing but there's not much depth to it, it might be humorous and if someone causes a bit of drama it might be a damn shame. But in no way would I desire to make those types of experiences my end all and and be all for my need for story.
Not all mmo's are for all people. That is why I applaud bioware's use of story and the ability to shrae that story with other players and why some players might want more of an open ended, EVE or Lineage 2 experience and why some players just want loot and to stand around in the city showing off their stuff.
So it's perfectly ok for bioware to make their game the way they want becuase it will appeal to the right crowd. Just not evey crowd.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If I wanted that much focus on story I would simply go and read a book. Sure, things need a purpose of why we do things but story isn't the reason why the majority plays games.
Don't forget that you can also go see a movie or a play. A story isn't exactly exclusive to books.... And then you can play games, too. I've played many games solely for their stories and have been thoroughly impressed on many occasions.
While I agree most people don't play games for their stories, it's quite obvious at least some of them enjoy a solid story - or else Bioware would not be where they are now, seeing as how their game mechanics not related to storytelling have not been nearly as often subject to praise.
The problem is multiplayer games... Nobody's exactly nailed storytelling in this area. The stories in online multiplayer games have been either:
a) non-existent
b) laughable
c) badly limiting gameplay in all sorts of manner.
So, I'd say nailing a good story experience without suffocating freedom and social interaction is sort of the Holy Grail of MMO development at the moment. The developer team that manages this will probably gain a huge advantage and then we'll see the MMO players are not that averse to stories in their games; they're just averse to bad stories and being limited.
From what I've seen upto now, Guild Wars 2 and Rift: Planes of Telara seem to be going it a bit more smartly on this.
The huge mistake BioWare is making (from a gamer's perspective, not a commercial one) is that they are making the game about individual story - not group or world story.
World story brings players together. Individual story divides players - especially the way they are doing it. You can't even start on the same planet with friends unless you are all playing the same class.
Lets see what they deliver before you make your noirmal swathe of assumptions.
A well designed world is what brings people together where community counts , combined with smoothly implemented features that dont make you feel as if you are being forced to co-operate.
It is a shame that you are unwilling to play the game they develop , just the one you see in your mind. Yes it is a real real shame as you seem clued up , but for some reason seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder. Ever played a game and had fun i wonder.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I still remember much of those encounters because of the great characters, wonderful dialog, the challenges, the disasters, the recoveries and the eventual victories. A fantastic story with a great script...a script that was written by us, as gamers, as we played.
I might not remember the dialog or characters in the quest lines I had to complete to get there, but I sure as hell remember the dialog between my guild mates, and the characters within the guild, and the community at large on my server. That goes for every MMO I have played going all the way back to Meridian 59 and Ultima Online. The players themselves are capable of providing a compelling and engaging narrative all on their own.
The characters and stories that the players bring with them is a key part of the fabric of an MMO, and should never be forgotten when considering why people like these games in the first place. Sure, we have progression, levels, skills, items and loot, and for some that is appealing in and of itself (see Farmville or Mafia Wars for proof of that!), but the thing that sets an MMO apart is how you interact with others around you. Whether that interaction is positive or negative doesn't really matter, it means we are all making a story for ourselves (and others) as we go along.
That story might be small (like a wipe in a pick-up-group) or it might be huge and effect many thousand of gamers (like a scam or major corporate collapse in EVE), it might be a personal story, like the first time you reached a certain area or level, or it might be a shared story like a guild racing for a server first kill, but it is a story. You can't really deny that. You might forget it, dismiss it, or take it for granted, but I'd wager your game experience would be far poorer without it.
For every quest text you might skip, there is a funny character you met while playing, a strange situation you found yourself in, an inglorious failure, or a heroic recovery from certain doom. Even when playing alone in an MMO, you are still surrounded by other players. You still share those stories. Think about it..how many of the MMO stories you chose to share with your friends are purely about what happened while you were soling a quest, and how many involve the antics, heroics or stupidity of a friend or another player?
Again, I'd wager it's far more likely to be the latter on any given occasion...
...it is also what sets an MMO apart from a single player game. Our experiences in MMOs often resonate with us more, or for longer, because they are inherently a shared experience...
...so while it might be quite right to say that MMOs have yet to develop mechanics capable of delivering the same narrative drive for the individual as a good single player game, it is doing the genre a disservice to forget about the elements unique to the MMO environment that allow for all the great stories we, as players, create for ourselves.
....
Stop forcing single player mechanic into MMO gameplay.
Why old school MMOs didnt have quests ? Because you and players around you create the quests. You are telling your own story together with interactive world and real people , not NPCs
I have had really poor experiences with the role play community.... In my opinion they are the snobs of the playground. Their poop don't stink, their story is always the best, and if you don't RP up to their standards you are basically left out... Plus, it's a game, not a damn chat room I shouldn't have to type my own quests and story out on a keyboard, the game developers should be telling the story of the world/setting, not a bunch of over-imaginative kiddies that change the rules/story as they go along.
Those aren't real roleplayers. I've seen loads of them too. If you're a real roleplayer, you roleplay the game, not make your own up. But most games aren't made for real roleplayers, so you end up with lots of these types while the true roleplayers aren't playing.
Not all mmo's are for all people. That is why I applaud bioware's use of story and the ability to shrae that story with other players and why some players might want more of an open ended, EVE or Lineage 2 experience and why some players just want loot and to stand around in the city showing off their stuff.
So it's perfectly ok for bioware to make their game the way they want becuase it will appeal to the right crowd. Just not evey crowd.
It is not okay, and this is why:
This is a huge IP and BioWare is going to screw it up just like Cryptic screwed up Trek. Two great opportunities for MMORPGs squandered.
IF BioWare was doing this with one of their own IPs, I would be fine with it, but they're not.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Not all mmo's are for all people. That is why I applaud bioware's use of story and the ability to shrae that story with other players and why some players might want more of an open ended, EVE or Lineage 2 experience and why some players just want loot and to stand around in the city showing off their stuff.
So it's perfectly ok for bioware to make their game the way they want becuase it will appeal to the right crowd. Just not evey crowd.
It is not okay, and this is why:
This is a huge IP and BioWare is going to screw it up just like Cryptic screwed up Trek. Two great opportunities for MMORPGs squandered.
IF BioWare was doing this with one of their own IPs, I would be fine with it, but they're not.
hmmm, well that is a good point now isn't it?
At what point does an IP leave the jurisdiction of its creators or those with permission to use it and take on a life of its own that goes beyond the owner and move to the user?
It's like LOTRO.
I like LOTRO. but I hate that it is so "game like" as opposed to a giant virtual world. I am for some of the design decisons like not having world pvp but I'm against the entire experience being very controlled areas that one can only access if they are on the right quest.
and I hate the avatar design. That would be a rant that would be unhealthy and not of use for this discussion so I'll just mention it and move on.
so the point is that for the foreseeable future, there will never be another Lord of the Rings mmo. This is what I have to work with.
So for Star Wars fans they either have SWG which brings with it all the baggage that we all know or this new Bioware creation.
SWG doesn't seem to be getting the attention from its devs like, say EVE and that leaves Bioware's new game.
I wonder if at any point bioware came to realize the horrific truth that what they were making transcendended a mere game and was actually an expectation that needed to be fulfilled?
And as we know, one size does not fit all.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm not going to copy the whole blog here, but for who's interested in hearing more about Morrison's take on stories and why he's convinced that storytelling comes 2nd right after gameplay, grab a drink and look here
Why not? You copied the post from Massively earlier this morning, right down to the ending drink reference, lol.
The over-focus on story can be just as much of a mistake as not giving it enough attention. Bioware's games have a habit of being rather closed and linear, in part to facilitate their "story telling". This is contrary to much of the intent of what MMOs are supposed to be. Furthermore, when your "epic storyline" is repeated by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players, it loses it's epicness and believability for players.
You cannot properly design content for an MMO story in the same manner as a SPRPG game, otherwise you will end up with botched MMO that is riddled with instancing. Considering their past history with RPGs, and the way they've been touting the story element, I think that this is the main problem Bioware might have with their MMO.
I agree that one cannot simply take a single player story (where the main character is YOU), put it into an MMO and hope that it provides all the necessary elements for a background story. Even though it did work for the starting area of AOC, beyond that area the whole game felt that it lacked the very immersive feelings you got in Tortage. Not because the player was "the chosen one" in Tortage, but because the story arcs in the main areas felt weak and each quest chain and location felt disconnected from the others. There was very little in the way of a "gameworld" story that helped to pull it all together and give meaning to why events where happeneing the way they were and why the individuals (and players) were actually there. There was an inherent lack of purpose to it all. And that's what gameworld stories do, they give purpose, meaning and context to the actions of its individuals (npcs and players alike).
The point I'm trying to make is that main story quests that are centred around the player as the main individual feel claustophobic in an MMO setting, nevertheless stories should not be foresaken just because of that. The whole game world needs compelling story arcs and background in order for it to FEEL like a living breathing world. To give it purpose.
Take SWG as another example of an MMO that failed to utilise the very IP on which its based. In the PRE-CU SWG, you weren't "the chosen one", the missions you did just involved the usual killing / collecting stuff. This ensures that the player isn't subject to the claustophobic and linear feeling that they could get from a Single Player RPG. However, SWG was a victim of the same lack of world background story that plagues it and many other MMO's to this day. The player doesn't feel that they are in a game designed around a particular setting and is supposed to depict a living, breathing world with a purpose, they may as well just play in an empty room.
Now, on the other hand, WoW has a background story, which is frequently referred to in the games quests and is actually added to whilst the player is progressing. The player isn't meant to feel as if THEY are the chosen one. Nevertheless, the combination of dialogue, memorable characters, locations and other elements helps the game to immerse the player.
That is, in my opinion, one of the big differences between WoW and its competitors: the ability to immerse the player in a gameworld that has lore and background for not only each quest chain, but for the gameworld as a whole.
In conclusion and in my own opinion, MMOs are like good fictional books and movies, they are all forms of escapism. The reader / viewer / player wants to be immersed in a world unlike their own, not just be shown a painting of one. In general people like to be TOLD a story and perhaps even make their own impression on it. They don't want to have to write the whole story from scratch just to entertain themselves.
I enjoy a good script and storeytelling as the next guy. HOwever there is a reason that MMOs dont have as much story involvement as say the FPS epics created by Bioware.
IN FPS, players mainly go in a very linear experience with a few diversions but the actions and events through the game are very predictable and , as such, allows construction of sophisticated plot lines, dialogue , and characters.
MMOs, despite our frustration of them being 'Linear' are no where near as linear as a FPS. In any MMO I am not reading one quest or following the events of quest line because I am doing like 20+ quests at once. MMOs gameplay is where you are multitasking your experience. With so many things, its easier to remember to kill 50 sheep, than to remember why those sheep need to be killed. Usually because I am in a hurry to then deliver an important letter to some captain as well as killing 10 sea turtles for their shells
I enjoy a good script and storeytelling as the next guy. HOwever there is a reason that MMOs dont have as much story involvement as say the FPS epics created by Bioware.
IN FPS, players mainly go in a very linear experience with a few diversions but the actions and events through the game are very predictable and , as such, allows construction of sophisticated plot lines, dialogue , and characters.
MMOs, despite our frustration of them being 'Linear' are no where near as linear as a FPS. In any MMO I am not reading one quest or following the events of quest line because I am doing like 20+ quests at once. MMOs gameplay is where you are multitasking your experience. With so many things, its easier to remember to kill 50 sheep, than to remember why those sheep need to be killed. Usually because I am in a hurry to then deliver an important letter to some captain as well as killing 10 sea turtles for their shells
Ah, the joys of multiple quest hand-ins. Watch that XP bar rise!
Seriously though, don't you think that your experience of those quests are influenced somewhat by the gameworld and its story arcs? I'm not referring to the actual quest story arc, but the whole gameworld one.
Not all mmo's are for all people. That is why I applaud bioware's use of story and the ability to shrae that story with other players and why some players might want more of an open ended, EVE or Lineage 2 experience and why some players just want loot and to stand around in the city showing off their stuff.
So it's perfectly ok for bioware to make their game the way they want becuase it will appeal to the right crowd. Just not evey crowd.
It is not okay, and this is why:
This is a huge IP and BioWare is going to screw it up just like Cryptic screwed up Trek. Two great opportunities for MMORPGs squandered.
IF BioWare was doing this with one of their own IPs, I would be fine with it, but they're not.
A good game is not about the IP. (athough it could help in Lore setting).
A good game is all about great game play and great game mechanics.
Bioware is making a lot of noise about single stories and single player tools that enhance "immersive game play".
With NPC companions taking on the roles of absent players, in game "space" videos taking precedence over actual space flying, prerecorded NPC talk and solo instances, they are clearly using the same techniques as in their single player off line games.
The problem is that in on line games the epic moments come from the interaction between players (even if you do solo stuff). All the Bioware things ... hamper ... the communication between players and that simply is not a good sign.
If Bioware will not deliver the multiplayer gameplay, SW:TOR could be one of the biggest failures of an MMO game ever. No matter how many video footage they have in store.
Apparently they have no idea what makes an MMo "epic" (see my signature below).
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Ah, the joys of multiple quest hand-ins. Watch that XP bar rise!
You know the BIG downside to multi-tasking quests? All those quest items filling your bags. Leading to the worst message in MMOs - "Inventory is full".
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
The story thing in an MMO isn't new. LOTRO tries to be very story focused. So, shouldn't it say "Funcom following Bioware, who are expanding on an idea that Turbine introduced"?
Turbine had a good storyline presentation in LOTRO -- perhaps even the best in a MMORPG -- but let's not kid ourselves by saying they "introduced" storyline to RPGs or MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The story thing in an MMO isn't new. LOTRO tries to be very story focused. So, shouldn't it say "Funcom following Bioware, who are expanding on an idea that Turbine introduced"?
Turbine had a good storyline presentation in LOTRO -- perhaps even the best in a MMORPG -- but let's not kid ourselves by saying they "introduced" storyline to RPGs or MMORPGs.
Um, AC1.
Lets get it right shall we, Turbine brought many of the mmo standards you enjoy today. The stadard GUI, the zoneless/seamless enviroment, and yes, it was the first to introduce epic storylines, they even had the very first combat system that had parts that required zero tab targeting, it was attack in a direction and people were hit.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Leave the deep story to be told for the single player hwere its best suited, in the MMO give players the pen and let them be their own stories.
I disagree. I want a developer made stories in my MMO.
Agreed. As do I.
If I wanted to make a story up for a movie or a book, I'd become a writer, not a movie watcher / book reader. If I wanted to design my own paintings, I'd become a painter rather than someone who wants to view them.
The point is that not everyone wants to be a budding Dungeon Master. Some people would rather be told a about a setting, rather than write one.
Forcing players to make up their own stories just to flesh out a game seems to me to be a sign of a poorly developed game. It was one of my pet-hates about Pre-CU SWG. The background story and quest system in the game was almost non-existent, and the bits that were in felt disconnected and without purpose. And that's what MMO's are in the end, a game, a form of entertainment.
I'm not saying that EVERYTHING has to be pre-written in an MMO, but the background story of the gameworld and its missions / quests certainly should be. The difference is what the player decides to do with them. I'm all for freedom and flexibility, but I'm also for structure and purpose.
The story thing in an MMO isn't new. LOTRO tries to be very story focused. So, shouldn't it say "Funcom following Bioware, who are expanding on an idea that Turbine introduced"?
Turbine had a good storyline presentation in LOTRO -- perhaps even the best in a MMORPG -- but let's not kid ourselves by saying they "introduced" storyline to RPGs or MMORPGs.
Um, AC1.
That was my actual reference point. UO may have had a story, and I guess EQ kinda did too, but AC1 (Turbine) is where I actually felt like I was taking part of a larger story.
Comments
It's a good article and, like the author, I am interested to see how Bioware adapts its single-player storytelling expertise to the MMO genre because it doesn't seem like a great fit to me. As I see it the main challenge is how to keep players interested once the story is over because it is the gameplay rather than the story which will give the game the sort of replay value that we traditionally associate with MMOs.
But perhaps Bioware are aiming for something else, a short-term high quality MMO experience rather than the long-term low quality experience we are more used to seeing.
Bioware are doing this for a number of reasons, they get to recover a decent ammount of cash because yes single players can pick up the title and play for a few months have a blast and then throw the game away. Some may stay and play on , but bioware have an additional revenue stream.
A secondly because they want to create and add a level of immersion for players who like the Star Wars IP and also players who like to enjoy the game (no not everyone needs to beat the game in a week).
I think it is a win win and if they add the standard features with lots of content up front , it will be one for all to enjoy.
Some will hate it but guess what who cares, this game will be a great success because it is being developed by a professional outfit who know what they want to do and are sticking to it.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I couldn't agree more. I don't want to be scripted.
Some day we'll be logging in not to play, but to see what our characters are doing according to what the game companies script them to do. It's actually that way now, it's just that most of the button monkeys don't realise it yet.
Once upon a time....
Which in and of itself means that there is not much freedom in SW:ToR right from the get go. ::sigh::
I think when we see what their plans are for payment - we will be able to determine their philosophy in that area.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I have had really poor experiences with the role play community.... In my opinion they are the snobs of the playground. Their poop don't stink, their story is always the best, and if you don't RP up to their standards you are basically left out... Plus, it's a game, not a damn chat room I shouldn't have to type my own quests and story out on a keyboard, the game developers should be telling the story of the world/setting, not a bunch of over-imaginative kiddies that change the rules/story as they go along.
ugh.
The problem is that what happens at a raid or a pvp battleground is not much of a story and it usually falls into the catagory of an anecdote or occurence.
Given the games I've tried, the closest things that I've encountered to an actual player driven story happened in Lineage 2.
that is because Lineage 2 is not a quest based game. Those who are a bit shortsighted might see the game as "grind grind pvp grind pvp grind"
But what it usually is about is who is griefing/scamming who and what they do about it and a short war and then a truce but then some player breaks the truce and there is another war and then an alliance is made but someone in the alliance is a spy there ends up being a negotiation but then so and so is sick of it and wants to make a group that is always at war with party B...
That's more about player driven story and drama.
The problem with some of those player driven stories is that some players take them way too serioulsy and the experience becomes actual drama but taking place in a virtual game world over being a game. Some people thrive off of that but I don't find it healthy.
As for the example given, that is probably because some people actually ARE wired to read the story taht is given and some are just "loot/level" oriented.
It then boils down to the type of person you are. Are you "reader" or are you more of an "action" type of person. Believe it or not there are people who read and enjoy the greater canvas that these games can provide. And of course there are those who are in it for heart pounding action. Maybe some are both?
In any case, me showing up at a raid and recounting what happened at the raid might be amusing but there's not much depth to it, it might be humorous and if someone causes a bit of drama it might be a damn shame. But in no way would I desire to make those types of experiences my end all and and be all for my need for story.
Not all mmo's are for all people. That is why I applaud bioware's use of story and the ability to shrae that story with other players and why some players might want more of an open ended, EVE or Lineage 2 experience and why some players just want loot and to stand around in the city showing off their stuff.
So it's perfectly ok for bioware to make their game the way they want becuase it will appeal to the right crowd. Just not evey crowd.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Don't forget that you can also go see a movie or a play. A story isn't exactly exclusive to books.... And then you can play games, too. I've played many games solely for their stories and have been thoroughly impressed on many occasions.
While I agree most people don't play games for their stories, it's quite obvious at least some of them enjoy a solid story - or else Bioware would not be where they are now, seeing as how their game mechanics not related to storytelling have not been nearly as often subject to praise.
The problem is multiplayer games... Nobody's exactly nailed storytelling in this area. The stories in online multiplayer games have been either:
a) non-existent
b) laughable
c) badly limiting gameplay in all sorts of manner.
So, I'd say nailing a good story experience without suffocating freedom and social interaction is sort of the Holy Grail of MMO development at the moment. The developer team that manages this will probably gain a huge advantage and then we'll see the MMO players are not that averse to stories in their games; they're just averse to bad stories and being limited.
From what I've seen upto now, Guild Wars 2 and Rift: Planes of Telara seem to be going it a bit more smartly on this.
Lets see what they deliver before you make your noirmal swathe of assumptions.
A well designed world is what brings people together where community counts , combined with smoothly implemented features that dont make you feel as if you are being forced to co-operate.
It is a shame that you are unwilling to play the game they develop , just the one you see in your mind. Yes it is a real real shame as you seem clued up , but for some reason seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder. Ever played a game and had fun i wonder.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Those aren't real roleplayers. I've seen loads of them too. If you're a real roleplayer, you roleplay the game, not make your own up. But most games aren't made for real roleplayers, so you end up with lots of these types while the true roleplayers aren't playing.
Once upon a time....
It is not okay, and this is why:
This is a huge IP and BioWare is going to screw it up just like Cryptic screwed up Trek. Two great opportunities for MMORPGs squandered.
IF BioWare was doing this with one of their own IPs, I would be fine with it, but they're not.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
hmmm, well that is a good point now isn't it?
At what point does an IP leave the jurisdiction of its creators or those with permission to use it and take on a life of its own that goes beyond the owner and move to the user?
It's like LOTRO.
I like LOTRO. but I hate that it is so "game like" as opposed to a giant virtual world. I am for some of the design decisons like not having world pvp but I'm against the entire experience being very controlled areas that one can only access if they are on the right quest.
and I hate the avatar design. That would be a rant that would be unhealthy and not of use for this discussion so I'll just mention it and move on.
so the point is that for the foreseeable future, there will never be another Lord of the Rings mmo. This is what I have to work with.
So for Star Wars fans they either have SWG which brings with it all the baggage that we all know or this new Bioware creation.
SWG doesn't seem to be getting the attention from its devs like, say EVE and that leaves Bioware's new game.
I wonder if at any point bioware came to realize the horrific truth that what they were making transcendended a mere game and was actually an expectation that needed to be fulfilled?
And as we know, one size does not fit all.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Why not? You copied the post from Massively earlier this morning, right down to the ending drink reference, lol.
http://www.massively.com/2010/06/07/funcoms-morrison-talks-story-in-mmos/
I agree that one cannot simply take a single player story (where the main character is YOU), put it into an MMO and hope that it provides all the necessary elements for a background story. Even though it did work for the starting area of AOC, beyond that area the whole game felt that it lacked the very immersive feelings you got in Tortage. Not because the player was "the chosen one" in Tortage, but because the story arcs in the main areas felt weak and each quest chain and location felt disconnected from the others. There was very little in the way of a "gameworld" story that helped to pull it all together and give meaning to why events where happeneing the way they were and why the individuals (and players) were actually there. There was an inherent lack of purpose to it all. And that's what gameworld stories do, they give purpose, meaning and context to the actions of its individuals (npcs and players alike).
The point I'm trying to make is that main story quests that are centred around the player as the main individual feel claustophobic in an MMO setting, nevertheless stories should not be foresaken just because of that. The whole game world needs compelling story arcs and background in order for it to FEEL like a living breathing world. To give it purpose.
Take SWG as another example of an MMO that failed to utilise the very IP on which its based. In the PRE-CU SWG, you weren't "the chosen one", the missions you did just involved the usual killing / collecting stuff. This ensures that the player isn't subject to the claustophobic and linear feeling that they could get from a Single Player RPG. However, SWG was a victim of the same lack of world background story that plagues it and many other MMO's to this day. The player doesn't feel that they are in a game designed around a particular setting and is supposed to depict a living, breathing world with a purpose, they may as well just play in an empty room.
Now, on the other hand, WoW has a background story, which is frequently referred to in the games quests and is actually added to whilst the player is progressing. The player isn't meant to feel as if THEY are the chosen one. Nevertheless, the combination of dialogue, memorable characters, locations and other elements helps the game to immerse the player.
That is, in my opinion, one of the big differences between WoW and its competitors: the ability to immerse the player in a gameworld that has lore and background for not only each quest chain, but for the gameworld as a whole.
In conclusion and in my own opinion, MMOs are like good fictional books and movies, they are all forms of escapism. The reader / viewer / player wants to be immersed in a world unlike their own, not just be shown a painting of one. In general people like to be TOLD a story and perhaps even make their own impression on it. They don't want to have to write the whole story from scratch just to entertain themselves.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I enjoy a good script and storeytelling as the next guy. HOwever there is a reason that MMOs dont have as much story involvement as say the FPS epics created by Bioware.
IN FPS, players mainly go in a very linear experience with a few diversions but the actions and events through the game are very predictable and , as such, allows construction of sophisticated plot lines, dialogue , and characters.
MMOs, despite our frustration of them being 'Linear' are no where near as linear as a FPS. In any MMO I am not reading one quest or following the events of quest line because I am doing like 20+ quests at once. MMOs gameplay is where you are multitasking your experience. With so many things, its easier to remember to kill 50 sheep, than to remember why those sheep need to be killed. Usually because I am in a hurry to then deliver an important letter to some captain as well as killing 10 sea turtles for their shells
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Ah, the joys of multiple quest hand-ins. Watch that XP bar rise!
Seriously though, don't you think that your experience of those quests are influenced somewhat by the gameworld and its story arcs? I'm not referring to the actual quest story arc, but the whole gameworld one.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
A good game is not about the IP. (athough it could help in Lore setting).
A good game is all about great game play and great game mechanics.
Bioware is making a lot of noise about single stories and single player tools that enhance "immersive game play".
With NPC companions taking on the roles of absent players, in game "space" videos taking precedence over actual space flying, prerecorded NPC talk and solo instances, they are clearly using the same techniques as in their single player off line games.
The problem is that in on line games the epic moments come from the interaction between players (even if you do solo stuff). All the Bioware things ... hamper ... the communication between players and that simply is not a good sign.
If Bioware will not deliver the multiplayer gameplay, SW:TOR could be one of the biggest failures of an MMO game ever. No matter how many video footage they have in store.
Apparently they have no idea what makes an MMo "epic" (see my signature below).
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
You know the BIG downside to multi-tasking quests? All those quest items filling your bags. Leading to the worst message in MMOs - "Inventory is full".
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Leave the deep story to be told for the single player hwere its best suited, in the MMO give players the pen and let them be their own stories.
LOTRO/AC1 did story years ago.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I disagree. I want a developer made stories in my MMO.
Turbine had a good storyline presentation in LOTRO -- perhaps even the best in a MMORPG -- but let's not kid ourselves by saying they "introduced" storyline to RPGs or MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Um, AC1.
Lets get it right shall we, Turbine brought many of the mmo standards you enjoy today. The stadard GUI, the zoneless/seamless enviroment, and yes, it was the first to introduce epic storylines, they even had the very first combat system that had parts that required zero tab targeting, it was attack in a direction and people were hit.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Agreed. As do I.
If I wanted to make a story up for a movie or a book, I'd become a writer, not a movie watcher / book reader. If I wanted to design my own paintings, I'd become a painter rather than someone who wants to view them.
The point is that not everyone wants to be a budding Dungeon Master. Some people would rather be told a about a setting, rather than write one.
Forcing players to make up their own stories just to flesh out a game seems to me to be a sign of a poorly developed game. It was one of my pet-hates about Pre-CU SWG. The background story and quest system in the game was almost non-existent, and the bits that were in felt disconnected and without purpose. And that's what MMO's are in the end, a game, a form of entertainment.
I'm not saying that EVERYTHING has to be pre-written in an MMO, but the background story of the gameworld and its missions / quests certainly should be. The difference is what the player decides to do with them. I'm all for freedom and flexibility, but I'm also for structure and purpose.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
That was my actual reference point. UO may have had a story, and I guess EQ kinda did too, but AC1 (Turbine) is where I actually felt like I was taking part of a larger story.