You can have an MMO with no quests/stories and you can create your own based on how the game allows you to "adventure."
You can have an MMO with an epic storyline every step of the way, and STILL create your own memories.
Whether or not a particular game has an emphasis on story will never change the fact that you will create your own memories along the way.
Just because SWTOR has an emphasis on story doesn't mean you dont' create your own memories with the groups you form, the bosses you take down, the failed pugs, etc etc.
I for one prefer the SWTOR method because if the story leading up to the encounter is epic, then any memory I create that is independent of the story (i.e. grouping, people you meet, etc) is even more special.
Think of it this way, you and a friend play Chess, during one game you have a great conversation that stays with you forever. Playing Chess had nothing to do with the memory, it was just the mechanism by which the memory formed. But, in a game like SWTOR, you can potentially have the best of all worlds. A great internal story that leads to memorable experiences.
Leave the deep story to be told for the single player hwere its best suited, in the MMO give players the pen and let them be their own stories.
Well, people say that but I've seen very few "player stories" that can even be called a story. As I mentioned above, it's more like some anecdote.
Short of being a role player most of them are just experiences during a raid or pvp battle but there is no narrative arc, no internal conflict for characters, nothing other than a thin recounting of a small occurence.
As I said above, the only games (and those that are similar) that I've seen that have actual stories to some degree are games like EVE or Lineage 2.
And that tends to get blown into some sort of real drama between players. Essentially finger pointing, flaming, forum wars, all of which is a type of story but one that tends to be same old, same old after a while.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
We make our stories... that sounds great until you realize it isn't true. Hey guys, I played basketball today and scored two baskets, thats my story. I played chess and my knight took a pawn, it was epic.
Who are you fooling, what he was talking about wasn't story, it was something he did. The story he perceived is something he made up in his mind, moreso to facilitate his point than to actually portray a story. You aren't making your own story, you are using what the developers presented to you and you are doing what they anticipated players would do. By expecting players to "create their own story" its as simple as saying that a buffet was left open so diners could make their own "culinary experience" .. you make your own dinner based on what we give you, aren't you an individual now?
No, linear stories aren't any better, but at least the developers give you something in the general ballpark of entertaining. Letting players know that you're killing the warlord because he murdered your family is much more emotionally gratifying and poignant than killing the warlord because everyone wants loot.
Saying that players create their own story when they play an MMO is misleading, what they should be saying is that players can create their own story, but that doesn't mean that they do, on the contrary most people don't bother writing or playing out a story at all with their characters. I guess if you all want to create your own "story" based on what you do in game thats your prerogative, but your story will be similar to everyone elses, and with only yourself to guide you, it would be a poorly written story too.
Playing MMOs is fun, the interaction with other people is nice and everything, but the second you start thinking that the 15 badgers you just killed is part of your amazing story, then you're just another one of the thousands of players that just started writing the most boring story anyones ever told.
I think I'll wait myself and see how it'll work out in the SW ToR beta when it arrives, it's too early to condemn yet for something that still sounds too vague to me. I've still seen and read too little about it to have a clear picture how it's being done (in contrast to ANet's abundant explanations of their dynamic event system)
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not going to copy the whole blog here, but for who's interested in hearing more about Morrison's take on stories and why he's convinced that storytelling comes 2nd right after gameplay, grab a drink and look here
Why not? You copied the post from Massively earlier this morning, right down to the ending drink reference, lol.
I thought it was obvious that a lof of info on the forums here come from sources like massively.com, I think more than half of the people who visit this site also visit massively.com. I often encounter the same aliases.
More importantly, the basis was Morrison's blog, that was what it was all about.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Morrison is right in that players have a hand in writing the story. A good story make a game much more enjoyable. I am looking forward to SWToR because of the story telling aspect of the game.
I enjoy a good script and storeytelling as the next guy. HOwever there is a reason that MMOs dont have as much story involvement as say the FPS epics created by Bioware.
IN FPS, players mainly go in a very linear experience with a few diversions but the actions and events through the game are very predictable and , as such, allows construction of sophisticated plot lines, dialogue , and characters.
MMOs, despite our frustration of them being 'Linear' are no where near as linear as a FPS. In any MMO I am not reading one quest or following the events of quest line because I am doing like 20+ quests at once. MMOs gameplay is where you are multitasking your experience. With so many things, its easier to remember to kill 50 sheep, than to remember why those sheep need to be killed. Usually because I am in a hurry to then deliver an important letter to some captain as well as killing 10 sea turtles for their shells
Ah, the joys of multiple quest hand-ins. Watch that XP bar rise!
Seriously though, don't you think that your experience of those quests are influenced somewhat by the gameworld and its story arcs? I'm not referring to the actual quest story arc, but the whole gameworld one.
ONe issue with many games is that they build in the multitasking into the game by design. It isnt one NPC giving one quest, its one NPC giving 3-5 quests standing next to a second with another 3-5
Wait.. isn't this the same company that said Age of Conan would be like steak, and WOW was like hamburger?
Here they are again, trying to hype a 'new' game while making cracks about WOW. Wraith of the Lich King has an amazing story, with Arthas making appearances throughout leveling and other instances. ( wraithgate cutscene ftw).
I mean, honestly, should the people at funcom learn to just shutup until they can actually release a playable game?
And wow, comparing funcom to Bioware... talk about making a huge jump. Bioware (along with Blizzard) is known for releasing games when they are ready. They miss release dates in order to make sure the game is finished before they expect people to pay. How you can ever compare AO or AOC to a Bioware product is beyond me.
But yeah.. continue to make comments about WOW, and how you are making steak instead of hamburger.. and we will laugh at you 4 months after launch when you are merging 75% of your servers because your game is half-baked and not ready for release.
Wait.. isn't this the same company that said Age of Conan would be like steak, and WOW was like hamburger?
Here they are again, trying to hype a 'new' game while making cracks about WOW. Wraith of the Lich King has an amazing story, with Arthas making appearances throughout leveling and other instances. ( wraithgate cutscene ftw).
I mean, honestly, should the people at funcom learn to just shutup until they can actually release a playable game?
And wow, comparing funcom to Bioware... talk about making a huge jump. Bioware (along with Blizzard) is known for releasing games when they are ready. They miss release dates in order to make sure the game is finished before they expect people to pay. How you can ever compare AO or AOC to a Bioware product is beyond me.
But yeah.. continue to make comments about WOW, and how you are making steak instead of hamburger.. and we will laugh at you 4 months after launch when you are merging 75% of your servers because your game is half-baked and not ready for release.
It's generally smart to read before commenting...
The comment is about most players not caring about the story, not whether WoW's story is good or not. I guess you proved his point pretty well actually...
The over-focus on story can be just as much of a mistake as not giving it enough attention. Bioware's games have a habit of being rather closed and linear, in part to facilitate their "story telling". This is contrary to much of the intent of what MMOs are supposed to be. Furthermore, when your "epic storyline" is repeated by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players, it loses it's epicness and believability for players.
You cannot properly design content for an MMO story in the same manner as a SPRPG game, otherwise you will end up with botched MMO that is riddled with instancing. Considering their past history with RPGs, and the way they've been touting the story element, I think that this is the main problem Bioware might have with their MMO.
QFE. This is exactly what we have seen from anything close to a game demo provided by Bioware to date.
I will not buy into any of the vaporware hype being pumped out by LA / Bioware. Go back and see what the supposed "demos" were like for SWG prior to actual launch. Allot of promises were made that were blatant lies in the end.
Wait.. isn't this the same company that said Age of Conan would be like steak, and WOW was like hamburger?
Here they are again, trying to hype a 'new' game while making cracks about WOW. Wraith of the Lich King has an amazing story, with Arthas making appearances throughout leveling and other instances. ( wraithgate cutscene ftw).
I mean, honestly, should the people at funcom learn to just shutup until they can actually release a playable game?
And wow, comparing funcom to Bioware... talk about making a huge jump. Bioware (along with Blizzard) is known for releasing games when they are ready. They miss release dates in order to make sure the game is finished before they expect people to pay. How you can ever compare AO or AOC to a Bioware product is beyond me.
But yeah.. continue to make comments about WOW, and how you are making steak instead of hamburger.. and we will laugh at you 4 months after launch when you are merging 75% of your servers because your game is half-baked and not ready for release.
It's generally smart to read before commenting...
The comment is about most players not caring about the story, not whether WoW's story is good or not. I guess you proved his point pretty well actually...
Heh, yes. Somebody clicked away the text without reading and went straight to answering, making a fool of himself besides missing the point.
Next time, don't jump into 'everybody hates WoW waah bla bla' mode, and read - and try to comprehend what's being said - before posting.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wait.. isn't this the same company that said Age of Conan would be like steak, and WOW was like hamburger?
Here they are again, trying to hype a 'new' game while making cracks about WOW. Wraith of the Lich King has an amazing story, with Arthas making appearances throughout leveling and other instances. ( wraithgate cutscene ftw).
I mean, honestly, should the people at funcom learn to just shutup until they can actually release a playable game?
And wow, comparing funcom to Bioware... talk about making a huge jump. Bioware (along with Blizzard) is known for releasing games when they are ready. They miss release dates in order to make sure the game is finished before they expect people to pay. How you can ever compare AO or AOC to a Bioware product is beyond me.
But yeah.. continue to make comments about WOW, and how you are making steak instead of hamburger.. and we will laugh at you 4 months after launch when you are merging 75% of your servers because your game is half-baked and not ready for release.
It's generally smart to read before commenting...
The comment is about most players not caring about the story, not whether WoW's story is good or not. I guess you proved his point pretty well actually...
Heh, yes. Somebody clicked away the text without reading and went straight to answering, making a fool of himself besides missing the point.
Next time, don't jump into 'everybody hates WoW waah bla bla' mode, and read - and try to comprehend what's being said - before posting.
Let's see. In WOW, I raided Onyx and nobody knew the story of why we were killing the dragon... and then a series of comments from WOW players talking about Leet Phat Loots.
This is a funcom developer trying to put funcom on equal footing as Bioware.. which is a joke. All they are trying to do is hype to you that TSW will be like Bioware's mmorpg and be drastically different than WOW.
My point was made. Before anyone listens to a developer from Funcom, they should wait until said company actually releases a product worth playing. Funcom is NOT Bioware, and they are not Blizzard.
I like the streamlined individual story in an mmo...as long as it becomes much more open at some point. Not necessarily sandbox open.. I just hope the decisions you make in SWTOR actually affect the game somewhat. Unlike ...AoC..where you have a bunch of responses you could use but the result is always the same. I like AoC but after Tortage they should just cut the replies down to the bare bones..since there is very little voice acting after that point...and it seems a waste to navigate a maze of mostly useless conversation just to receive the same answer regardless. I hope Bioware can attain the same system they have in all their other games...but tenfold...then provide a decent open game afterwards.
My point was made. Before anyone listens to a developer from Funcom, they should wait until said company actually releases a product worth playing. Funcom is NOT Bioware, and they are not Blizzard.
In this day and age, players need to learn that the name of the company doesn't mean anything.
Devs lie.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Wait.. isn't this the same company that said Age of Conan would be like steak, and WOW was like hamburger?
Here they are again, trying to hype a 'new' game while making cracks about WOW. Wraith of the Lich King has an amazing story, with Arthas making appearances throughout leveling and other instances. ( wraithgate cutscene ftw).
I mean, honestly, should the people at funcom learn to just shutup until they can actually release a playable game?
And wow, comparing funcom to Bioware... talk about making a huge jump. Bioware (along with Blizzard) is known for releasing games when they are ready. They miss release dates in order to make sure the game is finished before they expect people to pay. How you can ever compare AO or AOC to a Bioware product is beyond me.
But yeah.. continue to make comments about WOW, and how you are making steak instead of hamburger.. and we will laugh at you 4 months after launch when you are merging 75% of your servers because your game is half-baked and not ready for release.
It's generally smart to read before commenting...
The comment is about most players not caring about the story, not whether WoW's story is good or not. I guess you proved his point pretty well actually...
Heh, yes. Somebody clicked away the text without reading and went straight to answering, making a fool of himself besides missing the point.
Next time, don't jump into 'everybody hates WoW waah bla bla' mode, and read - and try to comprehend what's being said - before posting.
Let's see. In WOW, I raided Onyx and nobody knew the story of why we were killing the dragon... and then a series of comments from WOW players talking about Leet Phat Loots.
This is a funcom developer trying to put funcom on equal footing as Bioware.. which is a joke. All they are trying to do is hype to you that TSW will be like Bioware's mmorpg and be drastically different than WOW.
My point was made. Before anyone listens to a developer from Funcom, they should wait until said company actually releases a product worth playing. Funcom is NOT Bioware, and they are not Blizzard.
Are you really that obtuse? The example was in WoW because it happened there. It is clear he's talking about something which persists in any game everywhere and was making a point about many/most players not following the story and thus a strong story not being a large selling point for the genre.
Originally posted by Wickedjelly Having story lines present in modern mmorpgs simply adds to the experience not takes away from it. Unless you're completely incapable of any imagination or creativity on your own why would having storylines included in your game be anything but a welcomed addition rather than this nonsense that it somehow takes away from an mmorpg? Does having storylines somehow destroy your own level of creativity and imagination? I will never understand this notion that because some mmos try to have more depth to their creation and story this somehow limits an individual's capability to create their own stories and ideas within the confines of the mmo. Really makes no sense at all. I'm so tired of this less is more argument being made.
It's really very simple. Let us use World of Warcraft as an example, because you surely have some understanding of the storyline.
In WoW, the quests begin as things that tell a story, but are not things that necessarily must happen to only one person, or they are not things that are so important that them being a unique experience would alter the world. For example, in Teldrassil, one of the first quests is to save a guy from poisoning after he is attacked by spiders. As a human, you are set against the Defias criminals, and you kill the leader of one of their gangs. These are things that could have only happened to one person, or be done by one person, rather, but that fact does not alter the story terribly. (In principle, I disagree with open world quests that could only realistically be completed by one person, such as killing a specific named person, however.) What these quests do is set the tone of the world, place the player in a setting, and give them pieces of lore, history, and faction. (I believe there are better ways to do this, but no matter.)
Later, in The Burning Crusade, and to a much greater extent, The Wrath of the Lich King, and nearing highest content in Vanilla, players engage in quests that could only ever be done by one person, or one group, and their completion drastically alters the world. For example, Onyxia. Once she is dead, she cannot be in the throne room being a bitch, as she does. If we have killed her, we win, she loses, Stormwind is a little safer. But this is not what happens. Everyone cheers, they hang her head outside for a while, and then, later, we all pretend nothing happened, and she is right back in the throne room. That is both ridiculous and annoying.
The entire questline in Wrath sets you against the Lich King, and holds you up as the only one that could be doing so many things that deal devastating blows, and are the one present when a betrayal is uncovered, and holds you up as the great hero of <your faction> that everyone knows and loves. When everyone is this singular hero figure, it destroys the entire fabric of the world, and ruins any immersion, and should especially do so for anyone who cares about story.
The story in these cases is something that players would have to ignore, if they are roleplaying. How can I have been the woman who stood with Thassarian against the undead, if there is this guy hanging out in town that also did the same thing. Having these singular stories ruins the very idea of what an MMO is supposed to be. An MMO is a world where players can exists. How can we exist if we have to ignore the very things we spend most of our time doing in the world?
In a "real" MMO, for example EVE, you really can be someone that everyone knows, and loves or fears. You really can be someone that stood alongside your allies against a foe, and whatever happens, happens. That is a real story unfolding because it is a truly singular, unique experience. WoW, and many other MMOs now, try to create questlines that create a singular experience, and are designed to make the player feel heroic, but what they really do is create a single player game that everyone can play alongside one another in real-time. In order to experience the world, you have to ignore (or be totally apathetic to) the fact that you, and/or thousands or millions of others, have already done the exact thing you are doing.
We cannot all be a member of the party that made it to the top of Icecrown Citadel and defeated the Lich King. That is a one-time event. To have it be part of a quest series that all players do cheapens the event, and makes a mockery of the very idea of a virtual world. Does that make sense?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I don't know if it will be fun or not till I try it. I'll give TOR a shot, and maybe the story will be fun to play through. Or maybe it will be boring as crap, like any MMORPG with quest grinding.
For example, Onyxia. Once she is dead, she cannot be in the throne room being a bitch, as she does. If we have killed her, we win, she loses, Stormwind is a little safer. But this is not what happens. Everyone cheers, they hang her head outside for a while, and then, later, we all pretend nothing happened, and she is right back in the throne room. That is both ridiculous and annoying.
That can be fixed easily with phasing which wotlk used well in some cases. You that killed onyxia would not see her in the throne while the others can. You are still in the same world with others but in your personal story Onyxia is dead. Phasing in my opinion is a good thing to use in certain situations. It can use some imagination to come up with some great stuff.
Let's see. In WOW, I raided Onyx and nobody knew the story of why we were killing the dragon... and then a series of comments from WOW players talking about Leet Phat Loots.
This is a funcom developer trying to put funcom on equal footing as Bioware.. which is a joke. All they are trying to do is hype to you that TSW will be like Bioware's mmorpg and be drastically different than WOW.
My point was made. Before anyone listens to a developer from Funcom, they should wait until said company actually releases a product worth playing. Funcom is NOT Bioware, and they are not Blizzard.
I see. Another one who is so blinded by his antipathy for Funcom that he can see nothing but red in front of his eyes, not wanting to understand what the article is about, just because a guy from Funcom is saying it.
When you actually try to chill down and comprehend the article, then you see that the blogger was relating from his own experiences when he played WoW, that it wasnt intended to ridicule WoW in any way, and that the article was about what sorft of stories are important, whatever the MMO it is.
Most people in this thread - and the one on massively - understand that. Then again, most people are actually trying to comprehend what's being said in the article instead of getting stuck in rabid mode at the word 'Funcom'.
To quote Morrison:
" 'Story' isn't just about quests, quest mechanics, dialog options or cut-scenes. A world can tell a story, because it can provide a rich tapestry against the backdrop of which players can forge their own adventures. All those things are important"
and
"... games like Guild Wars 2, and our own The Secret World, will also have their own take on how to integrate more storytelling elements. Some of these approaches will succeed, some will fail, some will inspire others in the future, they will be stepping stones and the genre will continue to evolve. One thing I am sure off though, it won't evolve without the input of the players themselves."
"Sure, we have progression, levels, skills, items and loot, and for some that is appealing in and of itself (see Farmville or Mafia Wars for proof of that!), but the thing that sets an MMO apart is how you interact with others around you. Whether that interaction is positive or negative doesn't really matter, it means we are all making a story for ourselves (and others) as we go along.
That story might be small (like a wipe in a pick-up-group) or it might be huge and effect many thousand of gamers (like a scam or major corporate collapse in EVE), it might be a personal story, like the first time you reached a certain area or level, or it might be a shared story like a guild racing for a server first kill, but it is a story. You might forget it, dismiss it, or take it for granted, but I'd wager your game experience would be far poorer without it. "
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do I see where you're coming from? Of course I do. Do I agree? Not in the slightest besides the immersion factor point from a roleplaying perspective. However, to me the story presented in an mmo is on the same level as dealing with respawning mobs and nodes. In an ideal situation I would like everything from the placements of mobs and nodes to quests and stories within themselves to be dynamic and constantly changing or evolving based on even a single person's actions or choices. But we're a long way off from that so I accept things as they are.
Am I saying that an mmorpg has to have storylines? Of course not. Would I play an mmo without any real or cohseive storyline created by the developers? Maybe, it depends on the world they've created and the gameplay.
Do I agree with the person the op quoted? Not in the least. From my own personal experience the level a person does or does not care about the story presented in an mmorpg is directly related to the quality and depth of the story being spun. Do the majority of players care why Farmer Billybob Joe needs 12 boar hooves? No they don't. Do players care if you have an involved storyline carrying you acorss the continent with differing choices, adventures, and nemisis to face? From what I have seen many do.
Do I see story as a necessity in an mmorpg? No, I enjoyed these types of games before much thought or care was put into that area and would imagine with the right developer I could still enoy an mmorpg.
For me it is a nice addition not a necessity nor the sole reason I play. However, I also do not see it as a negative by and large. The only exception to this would be if the story was one of the main selling points of the mmo and I personally found the story to be unimaginative, cliche, and simply dull.
I'm not tired of people that don't want it to exist in their mmo. That's fine, regardless whether i agree or not everyone has different opinions and their own ways of enjoying things. What I mainly have issue with are the ones that act like mmorpgs with evolving storylines somehow dumbs them down or the players that do enjoy them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I think the story aspect of an MMORPG gets just too confusing or becomes unmanageable. A lot of people talk about the story aspect being ruined because a boss mob respawns. The only other way to do it is to have very generic enemies and have the 'boss' mob be a one time only event. In a MMORPG, this just doens't work very well and was tried in UO a long time ago. Players don't like when the 'event' happens when they are logged off, and they never get to experience it. UO stopped doing all type of events like that because the majority of development was being spent on events that few players actually got to experience. It also sucks to do the 3 week follow-up to an epic event, and then miss the entire ending because you happen to be away that day. What about time-zones?
At some point, a sacrfice has to be made regarding realism vs gameplay. Yes, it would be great if Onyxia would remain dead, and the 40 players who originally killed her on each server are recognized in Ogrimmar forever. But what about the other 3000 players on that server, do they never get to experience that fight? What about the countless hours of dev time developing that fight, was it all for only 40 players?
What about death and resurrection? Should an epic creature like Onyxa remain dead forever, while a level 3 player who gets killed by a scorpion can resurrect at will?
I think in WOW, and most other games that follow the EQ model, the devs do a good job of building up a story. The quest-chain for Onyxia was awesome (from the alliance side). I think the story is there for players that want to enjoy it, and ignorable by those who don't want it.
And back to Funcom. Do you think this blog would have ever been written if TSW was not being hyped as a story-heavy MMORPG. Are you that OBTUSE that you can't see funcom's marketing machine at work? Remember, AOC as the mature, story-driven alternative to WOW and how GG was writing blogs about how much better a 'mature' game would be. Do you really think this blog would have been written if TSW was a FPS?
The problem is that what happens at a raid or a pvp battleground is not much of a story and it usually falls into the catagory of an anecdote or occurence.
Given the games I've tried, the closest things that I've encountered to an actual player driven story happened in Lineage 2.
You're right, in a sense. I'd consider anecdotes and occurrences to be different types of story, next to the type of story that is being provided by the game designers.
I have experienced stories themselves, usually on the RP servers engineered by RP guilds, where player stories were more than just a recount of a raid or such. Some massive PvP battle events on the servers of those MMO's were engineered by several guilds where the end result counted in the larger story of conflict and intrigue being told between those guilds, as well as other interactions between players having a lasting impact, because all those players decided it to be so.
Personally I think that that kind of player stories will only evolve more if MMO's start reaching the stage where player generated content becomes an integrated part of an MMO: where the players have a limited set of tools at their disposal to make permanent changes to the MMO virtual world. I'm thinking of something as was being done with Neverwinter Nights, but then being possible in a MMO, or the tooling as you can see in Second Life where additional content keeps being generated by residents of its virtual world.
But also don't forget EVE Online, when that major corporation fell in a war lasting realtime weeks that started because of a coup and act of betrayal: that was one hell of a story, and a prime example of how the freedom of a virtual world can support player stories if the MMO developers have made their game flexible enough.
As for the example given, that is probably because some people actually ARE wired to read the story taht is given and some are just "loot/level" oriented.
True, different groups of players seeking different things for entertainment in their MMO.
It then boils down to the type of person you are. Are you "reader" or are you more of an "action" type of person. Believe it or not there are people who read and enjoy the greater canvas that these games can provide. And of course there are those who are in it for heart pounding action. Maybe some are both?
Not all mmo's are for all people. That is why I applaud bioware's use of story and the ability to shrae that story with other players and why some players might want more of an open ended, EVE or Lineage 2 experience and why some players just want loot and to stand around in the city showing off their stuff.
So it's perfectly ok for bioware to make their game the way they want becuase it will appeal to the right crowd. Just not evey crowd.
Also true, the reactions on forums like here have shown that MMO gamers have very different expectations from eachother for the MMO they like to play.
Only when SW ToR's beta appears we'll see how well (or not) Bioware has succeeded to catering to the different sets of player tastes.
Originally posted by Azrile
At some point, a sacrfice has to be made regarding realism vs gameplay. Yes, it would be great if Onyxia would remain dead, and the 40 players who originally killed her on each server are recognized in Ogrimmar forever. But what about the other 3000 players on that server, do they never get to experience that fight? What about the countless hours of dev time developing that fight, was it all for only 40 players?
What about death and resurrection? Should an epic creature like Onyxa remain dead forever, while a level 3 player who gets killed by a scorpion can resurrect at will?
I think in WOW, and most other games that follow the EQ model, the devs do a good job of building up a story. The quest-chain for Onyxia was awesome (from the alliance side). I think the story is there for players that want to enjoy it, and ignorable by those who don't want it.
I also don't think that MMO developers could have done it any other way. That's the major difference between single player games and MMO's, in singleplayer games actions have finite consequences and they can be like that since your character is the main protagonist in the story. That's impossible to do in a MMO where hordes of players are walking around in, reusable content is the only way to do it. There are tricks to circumvent it somewhat, but in the end sacrifices always have to be made regarding realism in favor of gameplay.
And back to Funcom. Do you think this blog would have ever been written if TSW was not being hyped as a story-heavy MMORPG. Are you that OBTUSE that you can't see funcom's marketing machine at work? Remember, AOC as the mature, story-driven alternative to WOW and how GG was writing blogs about how much better a 'mature' game would be. Do you really think this blog would have been written if TSW was a FPS?
Me, I look at everything regarding games as having elements of hype in it, some people and articles are more obvious about it than others, but you should always be aware of it. That applies not only to games, though, marketing influences and hype pervading any information that comes to you.
Besides Craig Morrison being the AoC game director and Ragnar Tornquist being the game director for TSW, I already knew that TSW would enhance upon story as well: GuildWars 2, SW ToR, and The Secret World, those are the 3 upcoming MMO's of which I know by their developers' interviews for certain that each would try and deal with the lack of the story aspect in MMO's.
Ragnar Tornquist is known for the adventure games Dreamfall and The Longest Journey, so I knew story and atmosphere would be important to him, also for his new project The Secret World.
About Morrison's blog, I'm able to pick up the interesting bits in it without being hindered that it's being said by someone from Funcom or his reference towards TSW. Then again, I don't have the burden of a neverchanging antipathy towards Funcom for their failure that was the AoC launch.
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Dubhlaith
... Does that make sense?
Do I see where you're coming from? Of course I do. Do I agree? Not in the slightest besides the immersion factor point from a roleplaying perspective. However, to me the story presented in an mmo is on the same level as dealing with respawning mobs and nodes. In an ideal situation I would like everything from the placements of mobs and nodes to quests and stories within themselves to be dynamic and constantly changing or evolving based on even a single person's actions or choices. But we're a long way off from that so I accept things as they are.
I think ANet is making the first steps into that area, with players' actions having an impact on the world environment. Sure, you can't make players's actions have an infinite amount of results on the game world, but they said they had so many different event results of players' actions interacting in the same area that it starts to 'feel' as it being dynamic and constantly changing.
Do I agree with the person the op quoted? Not in the least. From my own personal experience the level a person does or does not care about the story presented in an mmorpg is directly related to the quality and depth of the story being spun. Do the majority of players care why Farmer Billybob Joe needs 12 boar hooves? No they don't. Do players care if you have an involved storyline carrying you acorss the continent with differing choices, adventures, and nemisis to face? From what I have seen many do.
I'm not tired of people that don't want it to exist in their mmo. That's fine, regardless whether i agree or not everyone has different opinions and their own ways of enjoying things. What I mainly have issue with are the ones that act like mmorpgs with evolving storylines somehow dumbs them down or the players that do enjoy them.
I think it's a difference of playstyles in MMO's, some people see a MMO world as nothing more than a game with a story tagged on, while others when they play a MMO want to immerse themselves in a virtual world experience that also has the fun things to do that are typical for a game (in contrast to a virtual world as Second Life). In the second playstyle storylines provided by the makers of the MMO are more important than in the first one.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Stop forcing single player mechanic into MMO gameplay.
Why old school MMOs didnt have quests ? Because you and players around you create the quests. You are telling your own story together with interactive world and real people , not NPCs
+1
We do not need an impeccable story with NPCs and voice-overs for more immersion in MMOs, there are REAL players for that. Just create a relatively open world and that's all you need for an MMO's "story". The reason it's needed in single-player games is because there's no one around.. it's just you and NPCs.
Bioware are super at what they do, single-player RPGs. If they are successful with their formula in MMO world, be ready for a decade of "TOR clones", aka instanced, single-player story driven game-play.
It's like Bioware is on a campaign to shun the genuine remaining MMO gamers out. I for one hope they fail, or would rather have GW2 and FFXIV become much, much more successful just to stop this nice but slightly underwhelming genre lately from falling much much lower.
Comments
You guys are comparing apples and oranges.
You can have an MMO with no quests/stories and you can create your own based on how the game allows you to "adventure."
You can have an MMO with an epic storyline every step of the way, and STILL create your own memories.
Whether or not a particular game has an emphasis on story will never change the fact that you will create your own memories along the way.
Just because SWTOR has an emphasis on story doesn't mean you dont' create your own memories with the groups you form, the bosses you take down, the failed pugs, etc etc.
I for one prefer the SWTOR method because if the story leading up to the encounter is epic, then any memory I create that is independent of the story (i.e. grouping, people you meet, etc) is even more special.
Think of it this way, you and a friend play Chess, during one game you have a great conversation that stays with you forever. Playing Chess had nothing to do with the memory, it was just the mechanism by which the memory formed. But, in a game like SWTOR, you can potentially have the best of all worlds. A great internal story that leads to memorable experiences.
My 2 cents.
Well, people say that but I've seen very few "player stories" that can even be called a story. As I mentioned above, it's more like some anecdote.
Short of being a role player most of them are just experiences during a raid or pvp battle but there is no narrative arc, no internal conflict for characters, nothing other than a thin recounting of a small occurence.
As I said above, the only games (and those that are similar) that I've seen that have actual stories to some degree are games like EVE or Lineage 2.
And that tends to get blown into some sort of real drama between players. Essentially finger pointing, flaming, forum wars, all of which is a type of story but one that tends to be same old, same old after a while.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
We make our stories... that sounds great until you realize it isn't true. Hey guys, I played basketball today and scored two baskets, thats my story. I played chess and my knight took a pawn, it was epic.
Who are you fooling, what he was talking about wasn't story, it was something he did. The story he perceived is something he made up in his mind, moreso to facilitate his point than to actually portray a story. You aren't making your own story, you are using what the developers presented to you and you are doing what they anticipated players would do. By expecting players to "create their own story" its as simple as saying that a buffet was left open so diners could make their own "culinary experience" .. you make your own dinner based on what we give you, aren't you an individual now?
No, linear stories aren't any better, but at least the developers give you something in the general ballpark of entertaining. Letting players know that you're killing the warlord because he murdered your family is much more emotionally gratifying and poignant than killing the warlord because everyone wants loot.
Saying that players create their own story when they play an MMO is misleading, what they should be saying is that players can create their own story, but that doesn't mean that they do, on the contrary most people don't bother writing or playing out a story at all with their characters. I guess if you all want to create your own "story" based on what you do in game thats your prerogative, but your story will be similar to everyone elses, and with only yourself to guide you, it would be a poorly written story too.
Playing MMOs is fun, the interaction with other people is nice and everything, but the second you start thinking that the 15 badgers you just killed is part of your amazing story, then you're just another one of the thousands of players that just started writing the most boring story anyones ever told.
I think I'll wait myself and see how it'll work out in the SW ToR beta when it arrives, it's too early to condemn yet for something that still sounds too vague to me. I've still seen and read too little about it to have a clear picture how it's being done (in contrast to ANet's abundant explanations of their dynamic event system)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Should I have referred to massively.com?
I thought it was obvious that a lof of info on the forums here come from sources like massively.com, I think more than half of the people who visit this site also visit massively.com. I often encounter the same aliases.
More importantly, the basis was Morrison's blog, that was what it was all about.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Morrison is right in that players have a hand in writing the story. A good story make a game much more enjoyable. I am looking forward to SWToR because of the story telling aspect of the game.
ONe issue with many games is that they build in the multitasking into the game by design. It isnt one NPC giving one quest, its one NPC giving 3-5 quests standing next to a second with another 3-5
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Wait.. isn't this the same company that said Age of Conan would be like steak, and WOW was like hamburger?
Here they are again, trying to hype a 'new' game while making cracks about WOW. Wraith of the Lich King has an amazing story, with Arthas making appearances throughout leveling and other instances. ( wraithgate cutscene ftw).
I mean, honestly, should the people at funcom learn to just shutup until they can actually release a playable game?
And wow, comparing funcom to Bioware... talk about making a huge jump. Bioware (along with Blizzard) is known for releasing games when they are ready. They miss release dates in order to make sure the game is finished before they expect people to pay. How you can ever compare AO or AOC to a Bioware product is beyond me.
But yeah.. continue to make comments about WOW, and how you are making steak instead of hamburger.. and we will laugh at you 4 months after launch when you are merging 75% of your servers because your game is half-baked and not ready for release.
It's generally smart to read before commenting...
The comment is about most players not caring about the story, not whether WoW's story is good or not. I guess you proved his point pretty well actually...
QFE. This is exactly what we have seen from anything close to a game demo provided by Bioware to date.
I will not buy into any of the vaporware hype being pumped out by LA / Bioware. Go back and see what the supposed "demos" were like for SWG prior to actual launch. Allot of promises were made that were blatant lies in the end.
Remember the common factor in all SW games is LA.
Heh, yes. Somebody clicked away the text without reading and went straight to answering, making a fool of himself besides missing the point.
Next time, don't jump into 'everybody hates WoW waah bla bla' mode, and read - and try to comprehend what's being said - before posting.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Let's see. In WOW, I raided Onyx and nobody knew the story of why we were killing the dragon... and then a series of comments from WOW players talking about Leet Phat Loots.
This is a funcom developer trying to put funcom on equal footing as Bioware.. which is a joke. All they are trying to do is hype to you that TSW will be like Bioware's mmorpg and be drastically different than WOW.
My point was made. Before anyone listens to a developer from Funcom, they should wait until said company actually releases a product worth playing. Funcom is NOT Bioware, and they are not Blizzard.
I like the streamlined individual story in an mmo...as long as it becomes much more open at some point. Not necessarily sandbox open.. I just hope the decisions you make in SWTOR actually affect the game somewhat. Unlike ...AoC..where you have a bunch of responses you could use but the result is always the same. I like AoC but after Tortage they should just cut the replies down to the bare bones..since there is very little voice acting after that point...and it seems a waste to navigate a maze of mostly useless conversation just to receive the same answer regardless. I hope Bioware can attain the same system they have in all their other games...but tenfold...then provide a decent open game afterwards.
In this day and age, players need to learn that the name of the company doesn't mean anything.
Devs lie.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Are you really that obtuse? The example was in WoW because it happened there. It is clear he's talking about something which persists in any game everywhere and was making a point about many/most players not following the story and thus a strong story not being a large selling point for the genre.
It's really very simple. Let us use World of Warcraft as an example, because you surely have some understanding of the storyline.
In WoW, the quests begin as things that tell a story, but are not things that necessarily must happen to only one person, or they are not things that are so important that them being a unique experience would alter the world. For example, in Teldrassil, one of the first quests is to save a guy from poisoning after he is attacked by spiders. As a human, you are set against the Defias criminals, and you kill the leader of one of their gangs. These are things that could have only happened to one person, or be done by one person, rather, but that fact does not alter the story terribly. (In principle, I disagree with open world quests that could only realistically be completed by one person, such as killing a specific named person, however.) What these quests do is set the tone of the world, place the player in a setting, and give them pieces of lore, history, and faction. (I believe there are better ways to do this, but no matter.)
Later, in The Burning Crusade, and to a much greater extent, The Wrath of the Lich King, and nearing highest content in Vanilla, players engage in quests that could only ever be done by one person, or one group, and their completion drastically alters the world. For example, Onyxia. Once she is dead, she cannot be in the throne room being a bitch, as she does. If we have killed her, we win, she loses, Stormwind is a little safer. But this is not what happens. Everyone cheers, they hang her head outside for a while, and then, later, we all pretend nothing happened, and she is right back in the throne room. That is both ridiculous and annoying.
The entire questline in Wrath sets you against the Lich King, and holds you up as the only one that could be doing so many things that deal devastating blows, and are the one present when a betrayal is uncovered, and holds you up as the great hero of <your faction> that everyone knows and loves. When everyone is this singular hero figure, it destroys the entire fabric of the world, and ruins any immersion, and should especially do so for anyone who cares about story.
The story in these cases is something that players would have to ignore, if they are roleplaying. How can I have been the woman who stood with Thassarian against the undead, if there is this guy hanging out in town that also did the same thing. Having these singular stories ruins the very idea of what an MMO is supposed to be. An MMO is a world where players can exists. How can we exist if we have to ignore the very things we spend most of our time doing in the world?
In a "real" MMO, for example EVE, you really can be someone that everyone knows, and loves or fears. You really can be someone that stood alongside your allies against a foe, and whatever happens, happens. That is a real story unfolding because it is a truly singular, unique experience. WoW, and many other MMOs now, try to create questlines that create a singular experience, and are designed to make the player feel heroic, but what they really do is create a single player game that everyone can play alongside one another in real-time. In order to experience the world, you have to ignore (or be totally apathetic to) the fact that you, and/or thousands or millions of others, have already done the exact thing you are doing.
We cannot all be a member of the party that made it to the top of Icecrown Citadel and defeated the Lich King. That is a one-time event. To have it be part of a quest series that all players do cheapens the event, and makes a mockery of the very idea of a virtual world. Does that make sense?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
I don't know if it will be fun or not till I try it. I'll give TOR a shot, and maybe the story will be fun to play through. Or maybe it will be boring as crap, like any MMORPG with quest grinding.
Hard to say.
That can be fixed easily with phasing which wotlk used well in some cases. You that killed onyxia would not see her in the throne while the others can. You are still in the same world with others but in your personal story Onyxia is dead. Phasing in my opinion is a good thing to use in certain situations. It can use some imagination to come up with some great stuff.
I see. Another one who is so blinded by his antipathy for Funcom that he can see nothing but red in front of his eyes, not wanting to understand what the article is about, just because a guy from Funcom is saying it.
When you actually try to chill down and comprehend the article, then you see that the blogger was relating from his own experiences when he played WoW, that it wasnt intended to ridicule WoW in any way, and that the article was about what sorft of stories are important, whatever the MMO it is.
Most people in this thread - and the one on massively - understand that. Then again, most people are actually trying to comprehend what's being said in the article instead of getting stuck in rabid mode at the word 'Funcom'.
To quote Morrison:
" 'Story' isn't just about quests, quest mechanics, dialog options or cut-scenes. A world can tell a story, because it can provide a rich tapestry against the backdrop of which players can forge their own adventures. All those things are important"
and
"... games like Guild Wars 2, and our own The Secret World, will also have their own take on how to integrate more storytelling elements. Some of these approaches will succeed, some will fail, some will inspire others in the future, they will be stepping stones and the genre will continue to evolve. One thing I am sure off though, it won't evolve without the input of the players themselves."
"Sure, we have progression, levels, skills, items and loot, and for some that is appealing in and of itself (see Farmville or Mafia Wars for proof of that!), but the thing that sets an MMO apart is how you interact with others around you. Whether that interaction is positive or negative doesn't really matter, it means we are all making a story for ourselves (and others) as we go along.
That story might be small (like a wipe in a pick-up-group) or it might be huge and effect many thousand of gamers (like a scam or major corporate collapse in EVE), it might be a personal story, like the first time you reached a certain area or level, or it might be a shared story like a guild racing for a server first kill, but it is a story. You might forget it, dismiss it, or take it for granted, but I'd wager your game experience would be far poorer without it. "
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do I see where you're coming from? Of course I do. Do I agree? Not in the slightest besides the immersion factor point from a roleplaying perspective. However, to me the story presented in an mmo is on the same level as dealing with respawning mobs and nodes. In an ideal situation I would like everything from the placements of mobs and nodes to quests and stories within themselves to be dynamic and constantly changing or evolving based on even a single person's actions or choices. But we're a long way off from that so I accept things as they are.
Am I saying that an mmorpg has to have storylines? Of course not. Would I play an mmo without any real or cohseive storyline created by the developers? Maybe, it depends on the world they've created and the gameplay.
Do I agree with the person the op quoted? Not in the least. From my own personal experience the level a person does or does not care about the story presented in an mmorpg is directly related to the quality and depth of the story being spun. Do the majority of players care why Farmer Billybob Joe needs 12 boar hooves? No they don't. Do players care if you have an involved storyline carrying you acorss the continent with differing choices, adventures, and nemisis to face? From what I have seen many do.
Do I see story as a necessity in an mmorpg? No, I enjoyed these types of games before much thought or care was put into that area and would imagine with the right developer I could still enoy an mmorpg.
For me it is a nice addition not a necessity nor the sole reason I play. However, I also do not see it as a negative by and large. The only exception to this would be if the story was one of the main selling points of the mmo and I personally found the story to be unimaginative, cliche, and simply dull.
I'm not tired of people that don't want it to exist in their mmo. That's fine, regardless whether i agree or not everyone has different opinions and their own ways of enjoying things. What I mainly have issue with are the ones that act like mmorpgs with evolving storylines somehow dumbs them down or the players that do enjoy them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Big part of Funcoms hype before Age of Conan launched was that AoC is a Mature MMO that has very ambitious story written in to it...
...so they're not sitting in that chair for the first time.
I think the story aspect of an MMORPG gets just too confusing or becomes unmanageable. A lot of people talk about the story aspect being ruined because a boss mob respawns. The only other way to do it is to have very generic enemies and have the 'boss' mob be a one time only event. In a MMORPG, this just doens't work very well and was tried in UO a long time ago. Players don't like when the 'event' happens when they are logged off, and they never get to experience it. UO stopped doing all type of events like that because the majority of development was being spent on events that few players actually got to experience. It also sucks to do the 3 week follow-up to an epic event, and then miss the entire ending because you happen to be away that day. What about time-zones?
At some point, a sacrfice has to be made regarding realism vs gameplay. Yes, it would be great if Onyxia would remain dead, and the 40 players who originally killed her on each server are recognized in Ogrimmar forever. But what about the other 3000 players on that server, do they never get to experience that fight? What about the countless hours of dev time developing that fight, was it all for only 40 players?
What about death and resurrection? Should an epic creature like Onyxa remain dead forever, while a level 3 player who gets killed by a scorpion can resurrect at will?
I think in WOW, and most other games that follow the EQ model, the devs do a good job of building up a story. The quest-chain for Onyxia was awesome (from the alliance side). I think the story is there for players that want to enjoy it, and ignorable by those who don't want it.
And back to Funcom. Do you think this blog would have ever been written if TSW was not being hyped as a story-heavy MMORPG. Are you that OBTUSE that you can't see funcom's marketing machine at work? Remember, AOC as the mature, story-driven alternative to WOW and how GG was writing blogs about how much better a 'mature' game would be. Do you really think this blog would have been written if TSW was a FPS?
Also true, the reactions on forums like here have shown that MMO gamers have very different expectations from eachother for the MMO they like to play.
Only when SW ToR's beta appears we'll see how well (or not) Bioware has succeeded to catering to the different sets of player tastes.
Me, I look at everything regarding games as having elements of hype in it, some people and articles are more obvious about it than others, but you should always be aware of it. That applies not only to games, though, marketing influences and hype pervading any information that comes to you.
Besides Craig Morrison being the AoC game director and Ragnar Tornquist being the game director for TSW, I already knew that TSW would enhance upon story as well: GuildWars 2, SW ToR, and The Secret World, those are the 3 upcoming MMO's of which I know by their developers' interviews for certain that each would try and deal with the lack of the story aspect in MMO's.
Ragnar Tornquist is known for the adventure games Dreamfall and The Longest Journey, so I knew story and atmosphere would be important to him, also for his new project The Secret World.
About Morrison's blog, I'm able to pick up the interesting bits in it without being hindered that it's being said by someone from Funcom or his reference towards TSW. Then again, I don't have the burden of a neverchanging antipathy towards Funcom for their failure that was the AoC launch.
I think it's a difference of playstyles in MMO's, some people see a MMO world as nothing more than a game with a story tagged on, while others when they play a MMO want to immerse themselves in a virtual world experience that also has the fun things to do that are typical for a game (in contrast to a virtual world as Second Life). In the second playstyle storylines provided by the makers of the MMO are more important than in the first one.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i agree with the main post , i dont read quests i just skip over the talking and just get on with my life.
having fun with friends thats the story i want when i play.
+1
We do not need an impeccable story with NPCs and voice-overs for more immersion in MMOs, there are REAL players for that. Just create a relatively open world and that's all you need for an MMO's "story". The reason it's needed in single-player games is because there's no one around.. it's just you and NPCs.
Bioware are super at what they do, single-player RPGs. If they are successful with their formula in MMO world, be ready for a decade of "TOR clones", aka instanced, single-player story driven game-play.
It's like Bioware is on a campaign to shun the genuine remaining MMO gamers out. I for one hope they fail, or would rather have GW2 and FFXIV become much, much more successful just to stop this nice but slightly underwhelming genre lately from falling much much lower.