This is what I despise most about the MMO community. We *say* that we want innovation but the very moment it comes, like TOR adding the 'fourth pillar', we rise up in revolt. You don't like the idea of story-driven MMOs? Fine, don't bloody play them. The rest of us will be grateful for more variety in the genre.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
This is what I despise most about the MMO community. We *say* that we want innovation but the very moment it comes, like TOR adding the 'fourth pillar', we rise up in revolt. You don't like the idea of story-driven MMOs? Fine, don't bloody play them. The rest of us will be grateful for more variety in the genre.
Agreed. I noticed that some people in this thread are saying "We don't need stories..." when in actual fact they are only referring to their own opinions or the opinions of an exclusive minority on these forums. Yes, tastes are different. However, its indesputable that IN GENERAL people do like to be told stories. As is evident in the sheer amount of fictional novels there are. People enjoy going to be movies for the same reasons. Just look at the best movies and books as examples of good story telling.
A scene without a storyline is just a collection of objects without context and without purpose. Just like a scene from a badly made Film Noir.
Such people who don't want stories in games need to realise that not everyone is a budding Dungeon Master wanting to express their creativity in a computer game. For me, a computer game, film or book needs to envelope me in its environment. The more immersed I am in it, the more I will probably enjoy it. Good story lines, graphics and sounds are tools to do just that.
Stop forcing single player mechanic into MMO gameplay.
Why old school MMOs didnt have quests ? Because you and players around you create the quests. You are telling your own story together with interactive world and real people , not NPCs
Exactly.
I always love these. Look guys, some of us don't make MMOs our lives. They are only around for our entertainment when we don't have anything better to do. For us, story is important and motivating. We want it. If you don't want it, don't play an MMO based on it. Sand box games take hours to get anywhere unless you play when everyone else does. If you're logging in for an hour or two at an odd-ball time because you can't sleep, sandbox is a miserable experience. I'm not home every night or even most nights. I attend Aikido practice 2-3 times nightly, I help a friend of mine's kid learn to read, I hang out with various friends at various times, I even occasionally go out on a date. I don't have 4 hours nightly 4-5 nights a week to play sandbox style. I understand you love sandbox, but I want a point to what I'm working on and I'm frequently stuck working on it alone. That makes story important.
The over-focus on story can be just as much of a mistake as not giving it enough attention. Bioware's games have a habit of being rather closed and linear, in part to facilitate their "story telling". This is contrary to much of the intent of what MMOs are supposed to be. Furthermore, when your "epic storyline" is repeated by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players, it loses it's epicness and believability for players.
You cannot properly design content for an MMO story in the same manner as a SPRPG game, otherwise you will end up with botched MMO that is riddled with instancing. Considering their past history with RPGs, and the way they've been touting the story element, I think that this is the main problem Bioware might have with their MMO.
Very true. I wonder how much money these game companies have to lose until the finally "get it".
It's all about preference. I would much rather a developer design a fun, smooth game than spend extra time developing a canned story that is only good for one play-through.
The huge mistake BioWare is making (from a gamer's perspective, not a commercial one) is that they are making the game about individual story - not group or world story.
World story brings players together. Individual story divides players - especially the way they are doing it. You can't even start on the same planet with friends unless you are all playing the same class.
So wrong on so many levels. Get your facts straight dude. Bioware has stated as fact many times that not only will TOR have personal stories but world stories as well. It is also a known fact that Bioware has stated that if you don't want to even do your persoanl story you don't have to, it is an option. As for not being able to start on the same planet or not being able to group up early on is pure speculation and my opinion on that would be i'm pretty sure there will some type of travel system to get to whichever planet you desire to be on.
Your blind hatred and uncouth opinions that you spread as actual facts about TOR are becoming more trollishly epic everyday.
Which in and of itself means that there is not much freedom in SW:ToR right from the get go. ::sigh::
While the jury is still out on that, I wouldn't expect there to be a huge amount of freedom in the beginning of the game. I really wouldn't be surprised if they did something similar to AOC, directed character development to a certain point (lvl 20 in AOC). possibly all the way to end game in TOR. Why put in so much work into voice over and story telling, unless you plan for most of your players to experience it?
After your class story could be the first chance you get to explore and experience the universe freely. Think KoTOR 3 with something like oblivion and WAR's love child tacked on at end game (Keep in mind, they have mentioned some sandbox elements in TOR).This is my best guess at what the game may be like. Which really doesn't sound like a horrible design IMO, as long as the game-play and story telling are compelling enough. My guess would be a PVP focus for end-game..Which is where there may be sandbox elements. That would be the only thing I could see worthy of a monthly fee (if done right), of course there will be raiding and dungeons, but what mmo doesn't have that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Cyphers, your point about Guild Wars 2 is why it is my current great hope for the genre. If they can build the world in such a way that players can experience a story they have written, so that the story they experience is actually well-written, and somewhat scripted, and can follow a decent storytelling path, while at the same time actually changing the world while they do it, in such a way that is believable, then they will have accomplished something truly amazing. I do not want to get my hopes up too much, however.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Cyphers, your point about Guild Wars 2 is why it is my current great hope for the genre. If they can build the world in such a way that players can experience a story they have written, so that the story they experience is actually well-written, and somewhat scripted, and can follow a decent storytelling path, while at the same time actually changing the world while they do it, in such a way that is believable, then they will have accomplished something truly amazing. I do not want to get my hopes up too much, however.
I find it interesting that three separate MMO companies have determined that one of the major elements that was missing or made insignificant in the current generation of MMO's was storytelling.
After WoW's success we've seen an influx in the MMO market of all kinds of companies willing to dabble in MMO development, but their trying to emulate WoW's success mostly by copying the typical WoW characteristics resulted in the large amount of generic MMO's and generic gameplay mechanics and features that we see today.
So I find it hopeful that we can look forward to a number of MMO's from companies who have taken a hard look at the current state of MMO's, trying to determine what was wrong or missing, and went on their way to do certain things differently. Not only for a SW ToR, GW2 and TSW. I also like what CCP is trying to accomplish with the Tyrannis and future Incarna expansion and Dust 514, expanding even further upon the EVE Universe. Square Enix will do its own thing with FF XIV as they always do with their games, like it or leave it.
And the new MMO's TERA, Rift, and Blade & Soul look interesting too (although for me they'll probably end up as on-the-side MMO's).
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Why old school MMOs didnt have quests ? Because you and players around you create the quests. You are telling your own story together with interactive world and real people , not NPCs
Everquest one of the first MMO's had quests, but I suppose many wouldnt realize that considering it took a bit more than click on the npc to get the quest. You actully had to say a keyword to the npc to get the quest started imagine that. making players think. Player made quests? Please... most players couldnt make a gripping and entertaining quest if they tried.
So once again we end up at the same old conclusion:
Some players demand high-quality developer content to enjoy, and that's fine
Other players demand a high quality setting to tell their own story, and that's fine too.
There is no One True Way™ to making the "perfect" MMO that will please everyone. It's logically impossible. If I wanted a devcontent game, then I could hardly think of a better bunch that BioWare to produce it. When their guy, whatsisname, says that "STORYLINE IS ALL", that's not bad, that's awesome. It means that he's committed to producing a game that is strongly focused on the things that the first type of player I mentioned wants. Good for him! I hope TOR is a smash success that brings enjoyment to hundreds of thousands of people.
The nearest thing I have to a complaint is that there seem to be relatively few developers who are prepared to trust their players to create their own stories in the way that CCP do. I think that this is because the majority of studios grew up with singleplayer games where a compelling storyline was a sine qua non. (And of course lots of devcontent means big budgets, means lots of prestige and a big paycheck - it would be foolish to disregard this factor.). I suppose it's logical that the market for players who are prepared to put in that commitment to a shared world is just inherently smaller than the market for people who want to consume some content, enjoy it, and move on. Not everyone wants to put that much effort in to a game.
Comments
This is what I despise most about the MMO community. We *say* that we want innovation but the very moment it comes, like TOR adding the 'fourth pillar', we rise up in revolt. You don't like the idea of story-driven MMOs? Fine, don't bloody play them. The rest of us will be grateful for more variety in the genre.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Agreed. I noticed that some people in this thread are saying "We don't need stories..." when in actual fact they are only referring to their own opinions or the opinions of an exclusive minority on these forums. Yes, tastes are different. However, its indesputable that IN GENERAL people do like to be told stories. As is evident in the sheer amount of fictional novels there are. People enjoy going to be movies for the same reasons. Just look at the best movies and books as examples of good story telling.
A scene without a storyline is just a collection of objects without context and without purpose. Just like a scene from a badly made Film Noir.
Such people who don't want stories in games need to realise that not everyone is a budding Dungeon Master wanting to express their creativity in a computer game. For me, a computer game, film or book needs to envelope me in its environment. The more immersed I am in it, the more I will probably enjoy it. Good story lines, graphics and sounds are tools to do just that.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I always love these. Look guys, some of us don't make MMOs our lives. They are only around for our entertainment when we don't have anything better to do. For us, story is important and motivating. We want it. If you don't want it, don't play an MMO based on it. Sand box games take hours to get anywhere unless you play when everyone else does. If you're logging in for an hour or two at an odd-ball time because you can't sleep, sandbox is a miserable experience. I'm not home every night or even most nights. I attend Aikido practice 2-3 times nightly, I help a friend of mine's kid learn to read, I hang out with various friends at various times, I even occasionally go out on a date. I don't have 4 hours nightly 4-5 nights a week to play sandbox style. I understand you love sandbox, but I want a point to what I'm working on and I'm frequently stuck working on it alone. That makes story important.
Very true. I wonder how much money these game companies have to lose until the finally "get it".
It's all about preference. I would much rather a developer design a fun, smooth game than spend extra time developing a canned story that is only good for one play-through.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
So wrong on so many levels. Get your facts straight dude. Bioware has stated as fact many times that not only will TOR have personal stories but world stories as well. It is also a known fact that Bioware has stated that if you don't want to even do your persoanl story you don't have to, it is an option. As for not being able to start on the same planet or not being able to group up early on is pure speculation and my opinion on that would be i'm pretty sure there will some type of travel system to get to whichever planet you desire to be on.
Your blind hatred and uncouth opinions that you spread as actual facts about TOR are becoming more trollishly epic everyday.
While the jury is still out on that, I wouldn't expect there to be a huge amount of freedom in the beginning of the game. I really wouldn't be surprised if they did something similar to AOC, directed character development to a certain point (lvl 20 in AOC). possibly all the way to end game in TOR. Why put in so much work into voice over and story telling, unless you plan for most of your players to experience it?
After your class story could be the first chance you get to explore and experience the universe freely. Think KoTOR 3 with something like oblivion and WAR's love child tacked on at end game (Keep in mind, they have mentioned some sandbox elements in TOR).This is my best guess at what the game may be like. Which really doesn't sound like a horrible design IMO, as long as the game-play and story telling are compelling enough. My guess would be a PVP focus for end-game..Which is where there may be sandbox elements. That would be the only thing I could see worthy of a monthly fee (if done right), of course there will be raiding and dungeons, but what mmo doesn't have that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Cyphers, your point about Guild Wars 2 is why it is my current great hope for the genre. If they can build the world in such a way that players can experience a story they have written, so that the story they experience is actually well-written, and somewhat scripted, and can follow a decent storytelling path, while at the same time actually changing the world while they do it, in such a way that is believable, then they will have accomplished something truly amazing. I do not want to get my hopes up too much, however.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
I find it interesting that three separate MMO companies have determined that one of the major elements that was missing or made insignificant in the current generation of MMO's was storytelling.
After WoW's success we've seen an influx in the MMO market of all kinds of companies willing to dabble in MMO development, but their trying to emulate WoW's success mostly by copying the typical WoW characteristics resulted in the large amount of generic MMO's and generic gameplay mechanics and features that we see today.
So I find it hopeful that we can look forward to a number of MMO's from companies who have taken a hard look at the current state of MMO's, trying to determine what was wrong or missing, and went on their way to do certain things differently. Not only for a SW ToR, GW2 and TSW. I also like what CCP is trying to accomplish with the Tyrannis and future Incarna expansion and Dust 514, expanding even further upon the EVE Universe. Square Enix will do its own thing with FF XIV as they always do with their games, like it or leave it.
And the new MMO's TERA, Rift, and Blade & Soul look interesting too (although for me they'll probably end up as on-the-side MMO's).
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Everquest one of the first MMO's had quests, but I suppose many wouldnt realize that considering it took a bit more than click on the npc to get the quest. You actully had to say a keyword to the npc to get the quest started imagine that. making players think. Player made quests? Please... most players couldnt make a gripping and entertaining quest if they tried.
So once again we end up at the same old conclusion:
Some players demand high-quality developer content to enjoy, and that's fine
Other players demand a high quality setting to tell their own story, and that's fine too.
There is no One True Way™ to making the "perfect" MMO that will please everyone. It's logically impossible. If I wanted a devcontent game, then I could hardly think of a better bunch that BioWare to produce it. When their guy, whatsisname, says that "STORYLINE IS ALL", that's not bad, that's awesome. It means that he's committed to producing a game that is strongly focused on the things that the first type of player I mentioned wants. Good for him! I hope TOR is a smash success that brings enjoyment to hundreds of thousands of people.
The nearest thing I have to a complaint is that there seem to be relatively few developers who are prepared to trust their players to create their own stories in the way that CCP do. I think that this is because the majority of studios grew up with singleplayer games where a compelling storyline was a sine qua non. (And of course lots of devcontent means big budgets, means lots of prestige and a big paycheck - it would be foolish to disregard this factor.). I suppose it's logical that the market for players who are prepared to put in that commitment to a shared world is just inherently smaller than the market for people who want to consume some content, enjoy it, and move on. Not everyone wants to put that much effort in to a game.
Give me liberty or give me lasers