As to your last statement which to me is once again questioning my experience as an MMO gamer (if it's not, sorry) I am realy at a loss why you feel the need to bring that into the discussion once again. I feel no need to lie about my MMO experience to back up my opinions. If you feel I am being untrue well that's your issue not mine.
My comments are not directed specifically to you or any other poster. They are directed to a position taken by more than one person. Using my example, if I say that I have played both Chess and Chutes and Ladders and find them equally challenging, I don't think people familiar with both games would believe I am much of a chess player, or that I really have much experience with it.
People of course can still say that. They can say they are Garry Kasparov and from that position of experience they know Chutes and Ladders to be just as challenging a game. But would anyone believe them? If I say I am from Iowa and I love its sandy beaches along its ocean coastline, I guess I can make that claim but I really undercut my position when I do. That is my reaction when someone claims to have played EQ and then says WoW is just as challenging.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
No, it's not over for most MMO vets, it's only over for those MMO vets who refuse to move on. Most of us who started playing long, long ago no longer want the same thing out of games that we wanted back then, most of us have grown up, most of us no longer have the time or interest in sitting around in a time-wasting game, pretending it's somehow challenging.
We grew up and a lot of vets are actually enjoying MMOs today.
Out of the 20 or so people that i know irl that used to be avid MMO players. NONE OF US play any longer. The games we did like were ruined and the new breed of MMO is about as challenging as picking your nose.
Any of you be able to kill the Lich King on 25 hard mode? or any ICC bosses for that matter.
It is intellectually dishonest to ignore challenging content created for the hardcore group and only rant about the easier content shared by most of the players.
why bother, with the next expansion that same content will be puggable by just about anyone so there's really no point is there?
But there is still fun to be had out there, people who totally ignore it are doing so because they choose to IMO.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Kill mobs
Step 2. Level
Step 3. Kill more mobs
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.
So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.
I honestly don't think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over the years. It was a great ride no questions there.
With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as
NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.
I love how doomsayers seem to always think that they speak for the masses.
Any of you be able to kill the Lich King on 25 hard mode? or any ICC bosses for that matter.
It is intellectually dishonest to ignore challenging content created for the hardcore group and only rant about the easier content shared by most of the players.
So a person needs to defeat the last boss in the last dungeon to face a challenge? You're not helping your side of the issue.
Besides, the issue was not whether WoW lacks any challenges at all. The issue was whether overall one game, or one type of game design, is more challenging than the other.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
As to your last statement which to me is once again questioning my experience as an MMO gamer (if it's not, sorry) I am realy at a loss why you feel the need to bring that into the discussion once again. I feel no need to lie about my MMO experience to back up my opinions. If you feel I am being untrue well that's your issue not mine.
My comments are not directed specifically to you or any other poster. They are directed to a position taken by more than one person. Using my example, if I say that I have played both Chess and Chutes and Ladders and find them equally challenging, I don't think people familiar with both games would believe I am much of a chess player, or that I really have much experience with it.
People of course can still say that. They can say they are Garry Kasparov and from that position of experience they know Chutes and Ladders to be just as challenging a game. But would anyone believe them? If I say I am from Iowa and I love its sandy beaches along its ocean coastline, I guess I can make that claim but I really undercut my position when I do. That is my reaction when someone claims to have played EQ and WoW is just as challenging.
Well with respect you can take what I say any way you want that's your right. I stand by my opinion and feel no need to defend it further. Have a good day
there is still fun to be had out there, people who totally ignore it are doing so because they choose to IMO.
This sums it up rather nicely and I completely agree.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Kill mobs
Step 2. Level
Step 3. Kill more mobs
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.
So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.
I honestly don't think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over the years. It was a great ride no questions there.
With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as
NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.
I love how doomsayers seem to always think that they speak for the masses.
Remembering experiences is different from the reality of what actually happened. It's what we call nostalgia.
I can think back to the UO days and say it was the best time of my life, but if I go dig up those old forum posts I made, it tells a very different story.
It's easy to forget the bad and only remember the good. The bottom line is that not much has changed.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Kill mobs
Step 2. Level
Step 3. Kill more mobs
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.
So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.
I honestly don't think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over the years. It was a great ride no questions there.
With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as
NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.
I love how doomsayers seem to always think that they speak for the masses.
Remembering experiences is different from the reality of what actually happened. It's what we call nostalgia.
I can think back to the UO days and say it was the best time of my life, but if I go dig up those old forum posts I made, it tells a very different story.
It's easy to forget the bad and only remember the good. The bottom line is that not much has changed.
Once again some one states my thoughts much better than I ever could, which has contributed to my low post count over the years lol.
Remembering experiences is different from the reality of what actually happened. It's what we call nostalgia.
I can think back to the UO days and say it was the best time of my life, but if I go dig up those old forum posts I made, it tells a very different story.
It's easy to forget the bad and only remember the good. The bottom line is that not much has changed.
Yes.
Everyone does it but for some reason it seems to be insanely prevalent amongst mmorpgers. Kind of like their incessant need to use analogies out the wazoo as well.
It's like they cannot help themselves. I'm sure I'm just as guilty of it so not trying to pick on or point out anyone in particular. Just an observation of mine.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It's very interesting to me to read the narrative of the OP. Great points were made, and I totally see where you're coming from but there's a few points I have to respectfully disagree with.
Primarily, I find that the draw I find to MMOs can be replicated effectively in just about any MMO if I am persuasive enough. I'm talking, of course, about the involvement of my real-life friends in the games. It stands to reason that they probably wouldn't play a bad game with me, and there is a fair amount of shovel ware out there, but it's something. I do agree many people who dedicated their lives to some of the grandfathers of the MMO industry are having issues with many of the new games coming out, but I'd say those who are truly MMO Vets have evolved with the genre. I started with Asheron's Call. I loved that game and played it for 4 years. I find myself resuming every now and then when I start to feel nostalgic. The main things I realize every time I go back is how terrible certain elements of the game are. The dependancy on magic, the incredibly simple mel
Someday we'll all look back on the age of computers - and lol.
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Kill mobs
Step 2. Level
Step 3. Kill more mobs
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.
So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.
I honestly don't think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over the years. It was a great ride no questions there.
With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as
NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.
Preach it brotha! I started playing MMOs for the virtual adventure. Exploring new places, finding and facing new challenges - I'd take cross-country runs at insanely low level just for the fun of dodging through aggro that could one-shot me into pixellated paste. Adventure, man! And the people in the early days rocked. We felt special because we were there, doing something nobody else really had ever done, and this put us on our best behavior. We tried harder, cared more, and because of that, together we could overcome the tedium of the early MMO grind, the crushing death penalties, the class quests that required us to hang around for hours asking for help from other classes to complete, the bugs (o god the bugs - fish following you out of water and chasing you around the zone lolol) and all the other stuff that made those games such a pain to play.
But we beat all of those things because we tried harder and cared more. In fact, I'd say it's because of those things that we learned2play. Nowadays there's no reason to try or care as an MMO player. You're not playing a game, you're working a job that you have to pay for. It kills me that companies have succeeded in convincing people that completing a preplanned, company-controlled character leveling checklist makes them "good players". Yaarrggg. How do you show those people how much FUN playing an MMO game can be when they're been programmed to believe that surviving the treadmill long enough to ding max level and collect uber gear is all there is? How do you yourself grow as a player when there's no way in game to do more than work the treadmill?
So I unplugged and am playing the RL game now. It's a chore at the best of times, but it does have rewards,you do get to play with other people, and I'm still young enough to let some time pass until the next gen games come along. I think the industry itself is wising up to the fact that when every game is a McMMO, there's no real reason for anyone to switch from their current MMO to a new one, and this is driving innovation in MMOs.
For example, Guild Wars 2 has a LOT of features we all talked about in the old days - dynamic quests? MMMMMmmm. That's some fun waiting to happen right there. SW:TOR is going unique player story on us, and that'll be something to see. Kingdom Hearts is giving us NPC squads so we can ally with other players and have PvP armies. How cool is that? And I'm sure there's more out there I haven't seen yet.
So after this terrible long dark night of empty cookie-cutter grindfest MMOs, a new dawn finally looks to be coming up in the next couple of years. And I'll definitely be there for it
I have to say I still havent found the "perfect" MMO I was looking for.
WoW has many promising features on the surface, but in the end lacks the necessary challenge, has racial wars (a feature I deeply hate) and awful comic graphics (which I dont hate as much as racial wars, but still).
Vanguard was very very good in many respects, but lacks the players and the devs and now its single US server only, so meh, its gone for me as a european gamer.
Runescape looks good, albeit only 2 races, but its F2P, so meh.
Anything on the line ? Anywhere ? Sadly, that is not the case. I examined a lot of MMOs and right now theres just nothing for me on the market.
No, it's not over for most MMO vets, it's only over for those MMO vets who refuse to move on.
You hit the nail right on the head.
I've been playing MMOs since the beginning and I certainly have moved on. Times change and you either change with them or go find another hobby.
Besides, the evolution of MMOs in the past 10 years is neither good or bad, just different. Adjust.
Ah I see. So you see nothing wrong with your condecending posts telling people to go bugger off or change their tastes to "get with the times"?
Many people who were interested in MMORPGs haven't "evolved", they've left. I've seen little to no advancement in the last 6 years of MMORPGs. Probably the biggest innovation was public quests, and that's pathetic. Everything else has been getting simpler and simpler and simpler. That's not evolution by any stretch of the definition. In fact that's the opposite of evolution.
How would you like it if someone took your favorite genre/hobby, totally changed it, and when you expressed that you were upset, everyone laughed at you and said "man, get with the times or find something else to do".
Some of you really need to stop being so selfish and closed minded.
And this right here is what I agree with!! I have been playing MMO's since Meridian 59, and before that I was very active in MU*'s. I have watched this hobby begins it's uprise, go from text based games to graphical experiences. I have see worlds form and communities form. I have been through the good and the bad!
Now we see communities full of the "Now" people.... Full of the people that are so concerned with their gear (Whether by game design or not) we see little community forming. I believe what us "Old-Timers" are really looking for is the community that once existed. Where memories were made, and long lasting real friendships formed. Back when you could genuinely build a reputation for your character, when if you decided to do what so many do today in games, you would never get anywhere.
This isn't about change, this isn't about being young or old.... it is about values of the players and the designs of the game. I agree that soloing has aided in killing the genre, I also agree that these days time is a valued commodity and that soloing is a must. I guess I am just trying to point out that It isn't just the game styles I miss...... it's forming memories, friendships.. but now, it just doesn't happen much.
Well enough of my early morning rant..... take it or leave it, just my 2 cents. (If you can make sense of it.)
I have very fond memories of those exact situations in EQ. I just don't use those memories as an excuse to insult or question the intelligence of those who enjoy todays MMOs ( referring to others in the thread, not you) as some people do.
I agree. Whenever I talk about dumbing down I am making a qualitative assessment of a game and not the people who play it !
........... the focus has shifted (to me it seems) more heavily on the gear upgrades, achievements, unlocks, etc. It used to be more about the adventure and exploration. Nobody cared what your stats were, for the most part.
You can thank the console crowd for that. The pc market is miniscule compared to the overall console market. Developers can potentially make tons more money appeasing the stat lusting, easily amused, pvp whore, voice chat because I can't type, console crowd. All the elements listed are what console players are familiar with and alot of mmorpgs today (and future) have these components. There was a time when pvp was a dirty word.
We haven't grown up as much as pc games and the dev teams, in attempting to satisfy console gamers, have "grown" up. This is how they see the market, changing to meet the needs of todays players. The change has come from the games, not so much from us.
Ah, you should've included shiny in your post. Todays pc games try to lure the eye candy whores at the expense of gameplay.
So far the only 3 arguments I keep seeing repeated are...
"Get with the times, or get out. Your games are gone, deal with it."
"You obviously don't remember how bad old MMOs were, you're just remembering the good things, you clearly have no grasp of your own memories!"
and my favorite
"If you grind for a year or so, there's eventually a few hard raids in WoW, there's still hardcore content out there!" (thats laughable on two levels, entirely missing the point, and implying that I have to wait a year for a game to become engaging, also implying time spent = skill)
When someone says they played the older games, I believe them. When they say they like the new games too, I believe them. Because you can like both, although they are different.
But when someone says the older games weren't more challenging, I stop believing them. Because I know from that statement that they either didn't play the older games, or they didn't play very long, very well or very much.
It would be like someone saying they played American college football, but there really wasn't much physical contact. That tells me they either never played, were a kicker, or they rode the bench. You just can't credibly make such a statement. Anyone with passing familiarity with the sport knows better.
So while people claiming to be "vets" who dismiss the challenges posed by older games may draw high fives from people who never played those games and who prefer a less challenging mmo, in the eyes of we who actually are vets - we know you are not what you claim to be.
All I have to say is well said and I agree 100%. That is what I miss the most from games today is the challenge. The second most would be the social part of the game. The MMO's today remind me of fast food. They want it fast, they want it now, and complain when they have to wait more then a few seconds to get it.
So while people claiming to be "vets" who dismiss the challenges posed by older games may draw high fives from people who never played those games and who prefer a less challenging mmo, in the eyes of we who actually are vets - we know you are not what you claim to be.
All I have to say is well said and I agree 100%. That is what I miss the most from games today is the challenge. The second most would be the social part of the game. The MMO's today remind me of fast food. They want it fast, they want it now, and complain when they have to wait more then a few seconds to get it.
Heh. So if we don't have the same opinion as you we must not have played EQ1? Utter nonsense.
Sorry, Even the poor soloing classes could find a green in the corner of the zone and farm it up. Then find a new green and repeat. The old games DID NOT require grouping (many necros solo'd to 50), any claim to needing to be social and find a group is false. Groups did make the game more enjoyable. There was no challenge to beating those greens. There was no challenge to those games.
Yes, corpse runs could be a pain. I still love the 'Has anybody here seen my corpse" song. The lack of an ingame or out of game map (and if you didn't train your compass skill up, oh boy. But the corpse runs just boosted the number of same difficulty mobs up 10%. As long as you could kill greens safely, the game was not challenging to hit max level. Pay to Win was all it took.
Thats the honest truth. What made it more difficult was the fact it was the first of its kind. You had to learn the rules of the road for the first time. I still remember being scared to zone into the newbie zone from the town zone. Of course, even the concept of a newbie zone wasn't common yet.
When someone says they played the older games, I believe them. When they say they like the new games too, I believe them. Because you can like both, although they are different.
But when someone says the older games weren't more challenging, I stop believing them. Because I know from that statement that they either didn't play the older games, or they didn't play very long, very well or very much.
It would be like someone saying they played American college football, but there really wasn't much physical contact. That tells me they either never played, were a kicker, or they rode the bench. You just can't credibly make such a statement. Anyone with passing familiarity with the sport knows better.
So while people claiming to be "vets" who dismiss the challenges posed by older games may draw high fives from people who never played those games and who prefer a less challenging mmo, in the eyes of we who actually are vets - we know you are not what you claim to be.
All I have to say is well said and I agree 100%. That is what I miss the most from games today is the challenge. The second most would be the social part of the game. The MMO's today remind me of fast food. They want it fast, they want it now, and complain when they have to wait more then a few seconds to get it.
Right on the money. I enjoyed pre-trammel UO and pre-CU SWG the most of all the MMOs I've played, and there was definitely no "easy button" in those games. And that was part of the fun, and made the victories more sweet, when it was not certain, and the price for failure could be steep.
Of the last two games that sort of had the "old school" feel, Darkfall was released as a piece of unfinished crap, and FE was good, but not quite enough to hold my interest.
You can keep all the WoW clones and F2P cash shop P2W nonsense...
Reading this post reminds me of how much I miss playing in a virtual world mmo like pre cu and pre nge SWG. I've been playing place holder games since the day NGE went live.
I guess I'm just sick of these action adventure online games. I want virtual world online games back. Games where you login and live in the world, not login and hit your daily's/arena/raid because you kind of have to.
Age of conan is not just mindless killing, they made that game so that the activity of killing is fun and a little challenging. The fatalities never get old. At this point there is no need to grind anywhere, you can level all the way just doing one quest after another, which means a constant flow of different activities throughout the levels. This is much better than older games, like, EQ for example, where you would have to camp the Orc camps in Commonlands for days and days, or the basement of Goblins in Highhold Pass for weeks, etc.
If a game like AoC is not enjoyable to you than IMHO you have definitely outgrown the genre.
It's not fun or challenging, combat in AoC is a button-masher, you just keep hitting buttons until you kill your opponent. It's mindless, pointless violence, nothing more.
We grew up and a lot of vets are actually enjoying MMOs today.
So they perfected a pill to bring ones IQ level down low enough to enjoy these games? I mean I don’t want any permanent IQ loss, only temporal so I can actually enjoy your games for short periods of time.
If you don't like them, what in the world are you doing playing them? Or do you just like complaining?
Lol... This is a very funny post to me, "we grew up"... HA!
Agreed
I don't wanna grow up,
I'm a Toys eR Us kid.
There's a million toys at Toys eR Us
That I can play with.
From bikes to trains to video games
It's the biggest toy store there is!
I don't wanna growup, cuz, baby, if I did,
I couldn't be a Toys eR Us kid!
meh, I grew up in the 70's-80's :P
Most vet mmo gamers grew up long ago, know what is good and what is not.
There are already enough toon town games out.
I'm sorry, but "growing up" is an ongoing process, you don't just do it once and never again. If the last time you "grew up" was in the 70s-80s, you're seriously overdue.
Comments
My comments are not directed specifically to you or any other poster. They are directed to a position taken by more than one person. Using my example, if I say that I have played both Chess and Chutes and Ladders and find them equally challenging, I don't think people familiar with both games would believe I am much of a chess player, or that I really have much experience with it.
People of course can still say that. They can say they are Garry Kasparov and from that position of experience they know Chutes and Ladders to be just as challenging a game. But would anyone believe them? If I say I am from Iowa and I love its sandy beaches along its ocean coastline, I guess I can make that claim but I really undercut my position when I do. That is my reaction when someone claims to have played EQ and then says WoW is just as challenging.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
why bother, with the next expansion that same content will be puggable by just about anyone so there's really no point is there?
But there is still fun to be had out there, people who totally ignore it are doing so because they choose to IMO.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I love how doomsayers seem to always think that they speak for the masses.
So a person needs to defeat the last boss in the last dungeon to face a challenge? You're not helping your side of the issue.
Besides, the issue was not whether WoW lacks any challenges at all. The issue was whether overall one game, or one type of game design, is more challenging than the other.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Well with respect you can take what I say any way you want that's your right. I stand by my opinion and feel no need to defend it further. Have a good day
No signature, I don't have a pen
This sums it up rather nicely and I completely agree.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Remembering experiences is different from the reality of what actually happened. It's what we call nostalgia.
I can think back to the UO days and say it was the best time of my life, but if I go dig up those old forum posts I made, it tells a very different story.
It's easy to forget the bad and only remember the good. The bottom line is that not much has changed.
Once again some one states my thoughts much better than I ever could, which has contributed to my low post count over the years lol.
No signature, I don't have a pen
Yes.
Everyone does it but for some reason it seems to be insanely prevalent amongst mmorpgers. Kind of like their incessant need to use analogies out the wazoo as well.
It's like they cannot help themselves. I'm sure I'm just as guilty of it so not trying to pick on or point out anyone in particular. Just an observation of mine.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Primarily, I find that the draw I find to MMOs can be replicated effectively in just about any MMO if I am persuasive enough. I'm talking, of course, about the involvement of my real-life friends in the games. It stands to reason that they probably wouldn't play a bad game with me, and there is a fair amount of shovel ware out there, but it's something. I do agree many people who dedicated their lives to some of the grandfathers of the MMO industry are having issues with many of the new games coming out, but I'd say those who are truly MMO Vets have evolved with the genre. I started with Asheron's Call. I loved that game and played it for 4 years. I find myself resuming every now and then when I start to feel nostalgic. The main things I realize every time I go back is how terrible certain elements of the game are. The dependancy on magic, the incredibly simple mel
Someday we'll all look back on the age of computers - and lol.
Preach it brotha! I started playing MMOs for the virtual adventure. Exploring new places, finding and facing new challenges - I'd take cross-country runs at insanely low level just for the fun of dodging through aggro that could one-shot me into pixellated paste. Adventure, man! And the people in the early days rocked. We felt special because we were there, doing something nobody else really had ever done, and this put us on our best behavior. We tried harder, cared more, and because of that, together we could overcome the tedium of the early MMO grind, the crushing death penalties, the class quests that required us to hang around for hours asking for help from other classes to complete, the bugs (o god the bugs - fish following you out of water and chasing you around the zone lolol) and all the other stuff that made those games such a pain to play.
But we beat all of those things because we tried harder and cared more. In fact, I'd say it's because of those things that we learned2play. Nowadays there's no reason to try or care as an MMO player. You're not playing a game, you're working a job that you have to pay for. It kills me that companies have succeeded in convincing people that completing a preplanned, company-controlled character leveling checklist makes them "good players". Yaarrggg. How do you show those people how much FUN playing an MMO game can be when they're been programmed to believe that surviving the treadmill long enough to ding max level and collect uber gear is all there is? How do you yourself grow as a player when there's no way in game to do more than work the treadmill?
So I unplugged and am playing the RL game now. It's a chore at the best of times, but it does have rewards,you do get to play with other people, and I'm still young enough to let some time pass until the next gen games come along. I think the industry itself is wising up to the fact that when every game is a McMMO, there's no real reason for anyone to switch from their current MMO to a new one, and this is driving innovation in MMOs.
For example, Guild Wars 2 has a LOT of features we all talked about in the old days - dynamic quests? MMMMMmmm. That's some fun waiting to happen right there. SW:TOR is going unique player story on us, and that'll be something to see. Kingdom Hearts is giving us NPC squads so we can ally with other players and have PvP armies. How cool is that? And I'm sure there's more out there I haven't seen yet.
So after this terrible long dark night of empty cookie-cutter grindfest MMOs, a new dawn finally looks to be coming up in the next couple of years. And I'll definitely be there for it
I have to say I still havent found the "perfect" MMO I was looking for.
WoW has many promising features on the surface, but in the end lacks the necessary challenge, has racial wars (a feature I deeply hate) and awful comic graphics (which I dont hate as much as racial wars, but still).
Vanguard was very very good in many respects, but lacks the players and the devs and now its single US server only, so meh, its gone for me as a european gamer.
Runescape looks good, albeit only 2 races, but its F2P, so meh.
Anything on the line ? Anywhere ? Sadly, that is not the case. I examined a lot of MMOs and right now theres just nothing for me on the market.
Its way frustrating, really.
And this right here is what I agree with!! I have been playing MMO's since Meridian 59, and before that I was very active in MU*'s. I have watched this hobby begins it's uprise, go from text based games to graphical experiences. I have see worlds form and communities form. I have been through the good and the bad!
Now we see communities full of the "Now" people.... Full of the people that are so concerned with their gear (Whether by game design or not) we see little community forming. I believe what us "Old-Timers" are really looking for is the community that once existed. Where memories were made, and long lasting real friendships formed. Back when you could genuinely build a reputation for your character, when if you decided to do what so many do today in games, you would never get anywhere.
This isn't about change, this isn't about being young or old.... it is about values of the players and the designs of the game. I agree that soloing has aided in killing the genre, I also agree that these days time is a valued commodity and that soloing is a must. I guess I am just trying to point out that It isn't just the game styles I miss...... it's forming memories, friendships.. but now, it just doesn't happen much.
Well enough of my early morning rant..... take it or leave it, just my 2 cents. (If you can make sense of it.)
Averros
I agree. Whenever I talk about dumbing down I am making a qualitative assessment of a game and not the people who play it
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Yep. The games are becoming more and more like Farmville. That doesn't appeal to me in the least.
You can thank the console crowd for that. The pc market is miniscule compared to the overall console market. Developers can potentially make tons more money appeasing the stat lusting, easily amused, pvp whore, voice chat because I can't type, console crowd. All the elements listed are what console players are familiar with and alot of mmorpgs today (and future) have these components. There was a time when pvp was a dirty word.
We haven't grown up as much as pc games and the dev teams, in attempting to satisfy console gamers, have "grown" up. This is how they see the market, changing to meet the needs of todays players. The change has come from the games, not so much from us.
Ah, you should've included shiny in your post. Todays pc games try to lure the eye candy whores at the expense of gameplay.
So far the only 3 arguments I keep seeing repeated are...
"Get with the times, or get out. Your games are gone, deal with it."
"You obviously don't remember how bad old MMOs were, you're just remembering the good things, you clearly have no grasp of your own memories!"
and my favorite
"If you grind for a year or so, there's eventually a few hard raids in WoW, there's still hardcore content out there!" (thats laughable on two levels, entirely missing the point, and implying that I have to wait a year for a game to become engaging, also implying time spent = skill)
All I have to say is well said and I agree 100%. That is what I miss the most from games today is the challenge. The second most would be the social part of the game. The MMO's today remind me of fast food. They want it fast, they want it now, and complain when they have to wait more then a few seconds to get it.
Heh. So if we don't have the same opinion as you we must not have played EQ1? Utter nonsense.
Sorry, Even the poor soloing classes could find a green in the corner of the zone and farm it up. Then find a new green and repeat. The old games DID NOT require grouping (many necros solo'd to 50), any claim to needing to be social and find a group is false. Groups did make the game more enjoyable. There was no challenge to beating those greens. There was no challenge to those games.
Yes, corpse runs could be a pain. I still love the 'Has anybody here seen my corpse" song. The lack of an ingame or out of game map (and if you didn't train your compass skill up, oh boy. But the corpse runs just boosted the number of same difficulty mobs up 10%. As long as you could kill greens safely, the game was not challenging to hit max level. Pay to Win was all it took.
Thats the honest truth. What made it more difficult was the fact it was the first of its kind. You had to learn the rules of the road for the first time. I still remember being scared to zone into the newbie zone from the town zone. Of course, even the concept of a newbie zone wasn't common yet.
Right on the money. I enjoyed pre-trammel UO and pre-CU SWG the most of all the MMOs I've played, and there was definitely no "easy button" in those games. And that was part of the fun, and made the victories more sweet, when it was not certain, and the price for failure could be steep.
Of the last two games that sort of had the "old school" feel, Darkfall was released as a piece of unfinished crap, and FE was good, but not quite enough to hold my interest.
You can keep all the WoW clones and F2P cash shop P2W nonsense...
Right now, I am playing nothing.
Reading this post reminds me of how much I miss playing in a virtual world mmo like pre cu and pre nge SWG. I've been playing place holder games since the day NGE went live.
I guess I'm just sick of these action adventure online games. I want virtual world online games back. Games where you login and live in the world, not login and hit your daily's/arena/raid because you kind of have to.
It's not fun or challenging, combat in AoC is a button-masher, you just keep hitting buttons until you kill your opponent. It's mindless, pointless violence, nothing more.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
If you don't like them, what in the world are you doing playing them? Or do you just like complaining?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I'm sorry, but "growing up" is an ongoing process, you don't just do it once and never again. If the last time you "grew up" was in the 70s-80s, you're seriously overdue.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None