I agree with the murderer status and becoming an outcast which is perfectly realistic, but I don't agree with taking stats away from the player.
Then give an alternative. A lot of people like you love to throw your opinions around without any kind of alternative suggestions.
Without stat loss, the murderers would have no penalty. They would be able to die, rez, kill more. This game might as well turn into a faction game. Murderers versus innocents. That is not a good way to run a virtual world. Then it just becomes a high priced FPS or a really big instanced battleground.
So, knowing the issue at hand, what is your suggestion to replace stat loss? You have to come up with something. The game will die without concequences, and the developers know it.
And yet EvE Online manages to do all the good parts about FFA PvP right without inane systems such as this "murderer" crap. Outside of carebear zones, there is no griefing. There is only PvP.
No that’s not entirely true While Eve does in fact have the so called care bear zones, there are plenty of Pirates that will go on the suicide run destroy the care bears ships for the Lulz and even have their friends then enter after to recover any of the equipment left by the Pirate and the destroyed care bear.
I would dare say that if there is any game MMORPG out there that gives the ability for a player to grief in THEE most extreme terms and ways it would be Eve
And yet EvE Online manages to do all the good parts about FFA PvP right without inane systems such as this "murderer" crap. Outside of carebear zones, there is no griefing. There is only PvP.
No that’s not entirely true While Eve does in fact have the so called care bear zones, there are plenty of Pirates that will go on the suicide run destroy the care bears ships for the Lulz and even have their friends then enter after to recover any of the equipment left by the Pirate and the destroyed care bear.
I would dare say that if there is any game MMORPG out there that gives the ability for a player to grief in THEE most extreme terms and ways it would be Eve
I guess the definition of PvP is in the eye of the beholder? lol.
PvP for some means being chivalrous, engaging in combat with another that is ready and able to defend themselves. PvP for others means the killing of anybody and everybody, which includes and is usually exclusively the weak and unsuspecting.
In the end, you can't ask people not to be d-bags. The D-bags are going to be d-bags because it entertains them. They get a feeling of power when they kill the weak. They feel that they are the hero or the villan. It's not as fun when you are just another good or evil character getting your face stomped in by someone who you thought was less powerful is it?
So this is the mentality of your general theme-park/no consequence PvPer these days. Rage killing everything because it's fun. Then a company implements consequences and these same people cry like babies. if you want to PvP, do it like a man(or woman, sorry girls =P). Either accept the punishments for doing what you are doing or join a guild and go to war. Don't expect to come here and be a d-bag and get away with it.
So this is the mentality of your general theme-park/no consequence PvPer these days. Rage killing everything because it's fun. Then a company implements consequences and these same people cry like babies. if you want to PvP, do it like a man(or woman, sorry girls =P). Either accept the punishments for doing what you are doing or join a guild and go to war. Don't expect to come here and be a d-bag and get away with it.
Again it's not the concept of consequences... it's the implementation.
Speaking of which.. you mention the guildwar system. Is that in place currently or do you still get flagged for kills of enemy guilds?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Can't wait until the Shooter games adopt these mechanics...
Ah, but that's just it. Mortal Online isn't a "PvP game". It's a sandbox-style MMORPG, where more than just PvP is supposed to be supported by the game.
Funny how that mentality does come up with any MMO that *has* open PvP isn't it? I've noticed it as well.
A MMO can boast 30 lines of other features, including PvE content. If it has Open PvP in that list, there are those who will *insist* and argue vehemently that it's "All about FFA PvP" and if you want PvE, you should go elsewhere because you're a carebear. It's like everything else in the list of features is blurred out or in some alien language, except the words "Open FFA PvP". They find a MMO with PvP in it and immediately try claiming it as *their* territory, and theirs alone.
I really think what those "PvP Only" people are looking for is Counterstrike/Quake/Unreal Tournament, but with stats, gear and loot tables. Though they seldom come out and describe it that way, it's pretty much what they're looking for.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Can't wait until the Shooter games adopt these mechanics...
Ah, but that's just it. Mortal Online isn't a "PvP game". It's a sandbox-style MMORPG, where more than just PvP is supposed to be supported by the game.
Funny how that mentality does come up with any MMO that *has* open PvP isn't it? I've noticed it as well.
A MMO can boast 30 lines of other features, including PvE content. If it has Open PvP in that list, there are those who will *insist* and argue vehemently that it's "All about FFA PvP" and if you want PvE, you should go elsewhere because you're a carebear. It's like everything else in the list of features is blurred out or in some alien language, except the words "Open FFA PvP". They find a MMO with PvP in it and immediately try claiming it as *their* territory, and theirs alone.
I really think what those "PvP Only" people are looking for is Counterstrike/Quake/Unreal Tournament, but with stats, gear and loot tables. Though they seldom come out and describe it that way, it's pretty much what they're looking for.
You've summed that problem up very nicely.
I agree completely. A game with open FFA PvP is almost always relegated to the status of "PvP-only" almost immediately, no matter what other RPG gameplay elements the game has.
If a player is looking primarily for PvP, or wanting to play the villian, that's fine. They just need to understand that the game is actually trying to support multiple styles of play, and that their style cannot be allowed to trump or run roughshod over the others. The game's system needs to help ensure that they are all remain balanced and viable.
Can't wait until the Shooter games adopt these mechanics...
Ah, but that's just it. Mortal Online isn't a "PvP game". It's a sandbox-style MMORPG, where more than just PvP is supposed to be supported by the game.
Perhaps some of the confusion come from the fact that when the game was originally advertised the PvP actually got top billing as a feature.. even over sandbox gameplay or a free interactive world. It was framed as a PvP game that would take place against the backdrop of a sandbox world.
Heck they even use this phrase: "PvP, Player versus Player is the core of Mortal Online...."
Is there more than PvP? Sure.. but it's been advertised as a PvP first game. Has that philosphy changed since the Powerpoint? Perhaps..but even if it has you cannot blame players for being confused for looking for the self described core of Mortal Online to be PvP...
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
Practice. I know, spelling Nazi. It was right in front of you so I just had so
omg, an mmo with a consequence to ganking - how horrible !
If you take DF in comparison, although the penalty is comparably weak, you still can pvp without penalty versus racial enemies or during sieges.
So what's the problem? Can't have "fun" by randomly killing others? Guess this is the QQ version of the "harcores", who point fingers at "carebears" and their QQ-ing.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
no.. first you have to kill 5 in a row.. if you attack someone and die you wont get red.... you will be gray and the timer is like only 5 minutes to be blue again.... and you dont loose any stats
And you can fight ppl and not kill them too, so you wont get murder count....you only go red by killing ppl, in a row, not waiting flagging timer
you dont go red fighting, even with noobs... you go by killing, and you can leave them in mercy mode and not killing them
someone in game told me that the murder system is currenlty bugged and that once you are flagged red it stays that way.
is this true?
can you all stop arguing about something that is purely subjective and thus no point in trying to force your opinion on each other and answer the fucking question
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
you wont have to wait 24 hours. Like everything else in this game the flagging system is broken.
Once you are flagged a murderer you stay a murderer forever.
gamebreaking for me,
i quit today. I wont be coming back. seliing this garbage has left a bitter tast in my mouth.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
you wont have to wait 24 hours. Like everything else in this game the flagging system is broken.
Once you are flagged a murderer you stay a murderer forever.
gamebreaking for me,
i quit today. I wont be coming back. seliing this garbage has left a bitter tast in my mouth.
The flagging system works fine - you don't stay a murderer forever, though you will stay a murderer for a while.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
you wont have to wait 24 hours. Like everything else in this game the flagging system is broken.
Once you are flagged a murderer you stay a murderer forever.
gamebreaking for me,
i quit today. I wont be coming back. seliing this garbage has left a bitter tast in my mouth.
The flagging system works fine - you don't stay a murderer forever, though you will stay a murderer for a while.
i have asked numerous people in game and they all report that the murder counter does not remove after 20 hours.
there is also a thread on the officail forums confirming this.
Can't wait until the Shooter games adopt these mechanics...
Ah, but that's just it. Mortal Online isn't a "PvP game". It's a sandbox-style MMORPG, where more than just PvP is supposed to be supported by the game.
Perhaps some of the confusion come from the fact that when the game was originally advertised the PvP actually got top billing as a feature.. even over sandbox gameplay or a free interactive world. It was framed as a PvP game that would take place against the backdrop of a sandbox world.
Heck they even use this phrase: "PvP, Player versus Player is the core of Mortal Online...."
Is there more than PvP? Sure.. but it's been advertised as a PvP first game. Has that philosphy changed since the Powerpoint? Perhaps..but even if it has you cannot blame players for being confused for looking for the self described core of Mortal Online to be PvP...
Note also that there are 9 slides dedicated to describing the PvP directly after those slides...
From the presentation you provided:
"The heart of Mortal Online’s free PvP is an intricate flagging-system. It keeps track of illegal actions like stealing or killing, meaning that if you for instance kill innocent players you will be flagged as a murderer. Murderers will be attacked by NPCs in guarded zones like cities and they will receive penalties if they get killed themselves. The flagging system means you can always attack other players no matter where you are – but you have to face the consequences."
The flagging rules have been available for at least as long as that presentation, and have not changed much in that time.
Additionally, there are 18 other slides (not counting the title slide) in that presentation that detail some of the virtual world that SV is trying to bring to life. Of course combat in general is going to be a focus in pretty much every MMO - and the slides try to explain how combat in MO is different. But the slides also show that MO isn't supposed to be just a PvP game.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
you wont have to wait 24 hours. Like everything else in this game the flagging system is broken.
Once you are flagged a murderer you stay a murderer forever.
gamebreaking for me,
i quit today. I wont be coming back. seliing this garbage has left a bitter tast in my mouth.
The flagging system works fine - you don't stay a murderer forever, though you will stay a murderer for a while.
i have asked numerous people in game and they all report that the murder counter does not remove after 20 hours.
there is also a thread on the officail forums confirming this.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
you wont have to wait 24 hours. Like everything else in this game the flagging system is broken.
Once you are flagged a murderer you stay a murderer forever.
gamebreaking for me,
i quit today. I wont be coming back. seliing this garbage has left a bitter tast in my mouth.
The flagging system works fine - you don't stay a murderer forever, though you will stay a murderer for a while.
i have asked numerous people in game and they all report that the murder counter does not remove after 20 hours.
there is also a thread on the officail forums confirming this.
the game is broken.
Could you link the thread, please?
I belive you lose ONE murder count after every 20-24 hours. So if you kill 5 people you would need to wait 100-120 hours.
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
you wont have to wait 24 hours. Like everything else in this game the flagging system is broken.
Once you are flagged a murderer you stay a murderer forever.
gamebreaking for me,
i quit today. I wont be coming back. seliing this garbage has left a bitter tast in my mouth.
The flagging system works fine - you don't stay a murderer forever, though you will stay a murderer for a while.
i have asked numerous people in game and they all report that the murder counter does not remove after 20 hours.
there is also a thread on the officail forums confirming this.
the game is broken.
Could you link the thread, please?
I belive you lose ONE murder count after every 20-24 hours. So if you kill 5 people you would need to wait 100-120 hours.
that is how its supposed to work in theory, but it is not working that way.
Comments
Then give an alternative. A lot of people like you love to throw your opinions around without any kind of alternative suggestions.
Without stat loss, the murderers would have no penalty. They would be able to die, rez, kill more. This game might as well turn into a faction game. Murderers versus innocents. That is not a good way to run a virtual world. Then it just becomes a high priced FPS or a really big instanced battleground.
So, knowing the issue at hand, what is your suggestion to replace stat loss? You have to come up with something. The game will die without concequences, and the developers know it.
No that’s not entirely true While Eve does in fact have the so called care bear zones, there are plenty of Pirates that will go on the suicide run destroy the care bears ships for the Lulz and even have their friends then enter after to recover any of the equipment left by the Pirate and the destroyed care bear.
I would dare say that if there is any game MMORPG out there that gives the ability for a player to grief in THEE most extreme terms and ways it would be Eve
I guess the definition of PvP is in the eye of the beholder? lol.
PvP for some means being chivalrous, engaging in combat with another that is ready and able to defend themselves. PvP for others means the killing of anybody and everybody, which includes and is usually exclusively the weak and unsuspecting.
In the end, you can't ask people not to be d-bags. The D-bags are going to be d-bags because it entertains them. They get a feeling of power when they kill the weak. They feel that they are the hero or the villan. It's not as fun when you are just another good or evil character getting your face stomped in by someone who you thought was less powerful is it?
So this is the mentality of your general theme-park/no consequence PvPer these days. Rage killing everything because it's fun. Then a company implements consequences and these same people cry like babies. if you want to PvP, do it like a man(or woman, sorry girls =P). Either accept the punishments for doing what you are doing or join a guild and go to war. Don't expect to come here and be a d-bag and get away with it.
Again it's not the concept of consequences... it's the implementation.
Speaking of which.. you mention the guildwar system. Is that in place currently or do you still get flagged for kills of enemy guilds?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
so, is it ok to kill people who run around with their wangs hanging out?
immersion right?
o.O
Funny how that mentality does come up with any MMO that *has* open PvP isn't it? I've noticed it as well.
A MMO can boast 30 lines of other features, including PvE content. If it has Open PvP in that list, there are those who will *insist* and argue vehemently that it's "All about FFA PvP" and if you want PvE, you should go elsewhere because you're a carebear. It's like everything else in the list of features is blurred out or in some alien language, except the words "Open FFA PvP". They find a MMO with PvP in it and immediately try claiming it as *their* territory, and theirs alone.
I really think what those "PvP Only" people are looking for is Counterstrike/Quake/Unreal Tournament, but with stats, gear and loot tables. Though they seldom come out and describe it that way, it's pretty much what they're looking for.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You've summed that problem up very nicely.
I agree completely. A game with open FFA PvP is almost always relegated to the status of "PvP-only" almost immediately, no matter what other RPG gameplay elements the game has.
If a player is looking primarily for PvP, or wanting to play the villian, that's fine. They just need to understand that the game is actually trying to support multiple styles of play, and that their style cannot be allowed to trump or run roughshod over the others. The game's system needs to help ensure that they are all remain balanced and viable.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
someone in game told me that the murder system is currenlty bugged and that once you are flagged red it stays that way.
is this true?
Perhaps some of the confusion come from the fact that when the game was originally advertised the PvP actually got top billing as a feature.. even over sandbox gameplay or a free interactive world. It was framed as a PvP game that would take place against the backdrop of a sandbox world.
Heck they even use this phrase: "PvP, Player versus Player is the core of Mortal Online...."
Is there more than PvP? Sure.. but it's been advertised as a PvP first game. Has that philosphy changed since the Powerpoint? Perhaps..but even if it has you cannot blame players for being confused for looking for the self described core of Mortal Online to be PvP...
Source: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/10622-powerpoint-compilation-5-8-09-update.html
Slides:
Mortal Online Key Features
The Philosophy of Mortal Online in Short
Note also that there are 9 slides dedicated to describing the PvP directly after those slides...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
How are you supposed to practice and get better at PvP if your stats are superficially gimped? I have not played the game and would truly like to know. My own guess would be to join a PvP guild. But are the PvP guilds going to accept you if you've never lifted a sword to anyone before?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Practise.
We all sucked at starts everyone does dunno what yopur point really is, yopu can max your stats within days but take along time to actual learn to PVP very much like in any FPS game.......skills.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Practice. I know, spelling Nazi. It was right in front of you so I just had so
omg, an mmo with a consequence to ganking - how horrible !
If you take DF in comparison, although the penalty is comparably weak, you still can pvp without penalty versus racial enemies or during sieges.
So what's the problem? Can't have "fun" by randomly killing others? Guess this is the QQ version of the "harcores", who point fingers at "carebears" and their QQ-ing.
My point is, suppose you go up to somone and start attacking them. You lose, and your stats are reduced. Are you saying I should have to wait 24 hours or grind PvE to get my stats back in order to practice again on a even level? Seems sort of silly to me.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
no.. first you have to kill 5 in a row.. if you attack someone and die you wont get red.... you will be gray and the timer is like only 5 minutes to be blue again.... and you dont loose any stats
And you can fight ppl and not kill them too, so you wont get murder count....you only go red by killing ppl, in a row, not waiting flagging timer
you dont go red fighting, even with noobs... you go by killing, and you can leave them in mercy mode and not killing them
you wont have to wait 24 hours. Like everything else in this game the flagging system is broken.
Once you are flagged a murderer you stay a murderer forever.
gamebreaking for me,
i quit today. I wont be coming back. seliing this garbage has left a bitter tast in my mouth.
The flagging system works fine - you don't stay a murderer forever, though you will stay a murderer for a while.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
i have asked numerous people in game and they all report that the murder counter does not remove after 20 hours.
there is also a thread on the officail forums confirming this.
the game is broken.
From the presentation you provided:
"The heart of Mortal Online’s free PvP is an intricate flagging-system. It keeps track of illegal actions like stealing or killing, meaning that if you for instance kill innocent players you will be flagged as a murderer. Murderers will be attacked by NPCs in guarded zones like cities and they will receive penalties if they get killed themselves. The flagging system means you can always attack other players no matter where you are – but you have to face the consequences."
The flagging rules have been available for at least as long as that presentation, and have not changed much in that time.
Additionally, there are 18 other slides (not counting the title slide) in that presentation that detail some of the virtual world that SV is trying to bring to life. Of course combat in general is going to be a focus in pretty much every MMO - and the slides try to explain how combat in MO is different. But the slides also show that MO isn't supposed to be just a PvP game.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Could you link the thread, please?
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/46099-murdercount-bugged.html
I belive you lose ONE murder count after every 20-24 hours. So if you kill 5 people you would need to wait 100-120 hours.
oh look, servers are down again.
The fifth time today.
this game is destined for the same fate as aoc.
it will take 5-12 months to make this game stable and playbale. By then, most players, like me will have moved onto another mmo.
Shame on the dev's for releasing this pile of garbage. I hope this game sinks and starvault with it.
that is how its supposed to work in theory, but it is not working that way.