At some point the writers and MMORPG.com need to become fans of the genre. Right now it seems like they are given a certain amount of information to look over as their task for the day, then write an article about what is given to them. Rather than doign what fans do and scour the internet for information, videos, interviews, etc.
I find it a bit unpleasant that absolutely every article I've read about the game's E3 presence has been terrible in that I leave each article with a grimace knowing that there are at least one or two things in the article that are speculations by the writer based on information that is already out that says their speculations are false.
I couldn't agree more with you. Honestly, 90% of the articles here are just horrible. The staff of this website are just doing their job. There is no indication that they are actually fans of the genre.
Reading through not just the E3 articles, but really anything written by the staff members just makes me cringe. It seems like they have no real experience with the genre, past WoW.
I go to other websites for real news and articles about the genre. Usually fan sites such as Darth Hater and FFXIVCore.
I really only come here for the forums. (If you couldn't tell by my post count )
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Sheer laziness accounts for the poor writing in this article. To find out the truth of the speculation given on just the Consular class alone took not but a couple of minutes and dispelled all of the writers expressed fears. This of course isn't a suprise, the writing staff seems to be lazy a lot lately and the community is growing increasingly lazy too in general. The only thing here that is "underwhelming" is this article.
Have to agree with Stradden. Merely seeing that it was even *possible* for a JEDI to sit around for five minutes and tap the heal button(s) dropped my interest level down a notch. I hate it.
Fortunately, this was offset slightly by the fact that they're using the dialogue system from mass effect(and not dragon age), so now we have a game with 8 different Commander Sheppards, if you will.
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Have to agree with Stradden. Merely seeing that it was even *possible* for a JEDI to sit around for five minutes and tap the heal button(s) dropped my interest level down a notch. I hate it.
I'm inclined to agree, because I think we all know what's going to happen in the end when the game ships and the community gets to know the game a bit. You WILL be relegated to a position of a healbot solely because you CAN be one.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
I posted it elsewhere, but might as well post it here too.
About the Jedi Consular:
Quote: From what we were shown, this class is far from being a simple caster. Part melee, part puppeteer, part healer; the Jedi Consular could end up filling multiple play styles - Darth Hater Extravaganza
Quote: "The Jedi consular is more based in telekinetics" - Gamespot Dec 3rd
Abilities seem to include Mind Maze, Force Pull, Force Slam, Benevolence, Meditation, Clear casting & Force Repulse - Darth Hater Extravaganza
Consular is a rear line support fighter not a front line melee. - PCGames Translation
Consulars can use the doublebladed Lightsaber - Holonet
About healing:
Healing: Several classes can heal, Healing is NOT a requirement of TOR and healing has been done with a twist in TOR - IGN Q & A
One of these methods that have already been revealed how they plan to avoid the Trinity trap are the Companions that act as smart versatile pets, they're this much enhanced that when a team of 4 has no class with strong healing abilities, then they can bring 4 healing companions and still be good. So no class is bby definition 'locked' into a 'one trick pony' role.
Oh, for more detailed information about the Classes, the worlds and the gameplay, look here
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Sheer laziness accounts for the poor writing in this article. To find out the truth of the speculation given on just the Consular class alone took not but a couple of minutes and dispelled all of the writers expressed fears. This of course isn't a suprise, the writing staff seems to be lazy a lot lately and the community is growing increasingly lazy too in general. The only thing here that is "underwhelming" is this article.
Once again, an article in which the writer looks objectively at WHAT'S BEING SHOWN TO THEM BY THE GAME'S DEVELOPERS, and posters start bashing the article because the writer does not fall to his knees and praise every aspect of the game.
Echelon, above, for instance, seems to think that despite Bitton being shown a demo of the game by BW, 3ft. from his face, he should have scoured the internet for more information on his article about the demo that he just watched. Ech apparently believes that if a writer doesn't like what info his given by the company making the game that said writer should comb the internet and find info that he does like so he can write a more positive article. Ridiculous.
Dameonk admits that for "real" news, he goes to fan sites, obviously you'll find objective opinions there! fcazares doesn't bother with anything constructive, just calls the writer lazy, again, for watching a demo shown to him by BW and reporting his feelings on what he saw.
It is not the fault of the writer that BW chose to have the consular stand still and just throw heals for aesthetic purposes, if that is in fact the case.
At any rate, the demo does show clear evidence of a "holy trinity" style of group play. trooper tanks with jedi off-tanking/crowd control, smuggler doing DPS, consular throwing heals.
Now, I know that the game's loyal defenders will pounce, screaming, "but there's more expertise trees, advanced class system!!!" It makes absolutely no difference. Within 6 months the "must have" expertise builds will be figured out, making professions cookie-cutter, and you'll have to use one of these builds or be cast out for your herecy, to quote BW devs, "similar to WoW."
I'm still holding out hope for this game, but I admit that what I saw from E3, THROUGH MY OWN INVESTIGATING, has left me a bit underwhelmed as well.
It occurs to me, though not suddenly, that while the Consular is ostensibly not intended to function as a heal-bot, the evidence so far suggests that it CAN function as such.
So, with that premise (flawed or not, and I welcome debate), if a healing specced Consular is actually skilled at healing above other things they can provide (and they should be, since in our example they are specced), is it not unreasonable to think that the player base in general will demand an in-party Consular to do exactly this? At least for group-required content?
Following the same trend as WoW (sword rogues for dps, healing specced paladins, prot warriors, etc), is it possible that, while the Consular can theoretically fill other roles, its most popular incarnation will be the stationary healer? This is somewhat mitigated by the game's single-player strengths. For the sake of argument let's say a hybrid Consular refuses to conform to the group's demand for a respec to a total healer role (or is otherwise denied a space in the group because of it). It's not such a huge blow because that player can likely tackle the same content solo. But I imagine the game is not 100% solo-able, and that some of the best loot drops come from the group content. Speculation, yes, but grounded in MMO history, and the knowledge that BioWare is not breaking any molds, here.
I'd be curious to see how Consular companions are fitted out. Although I seem to remember Bioware saying that players could not allocate their companion's 'path points'. Still, I'm rather curious if the most popular Consular companion is the heal-bot version spamming Benevolence.
I LOVE ALL THE POST CREATING SENERIOS ON WHY THE COMBAT WAS SO BORING AND STATIC.
Maybe this or maybe that, how about maybe the games combat is static and boring.
EVERY single video released has static and boring combat in it w/o exception, so yeah.
I mean that doesn't mean people will not enjoy the game but lets not PRETEND its somethign other than what it currently is.Maybe in the future it will all be action and fluid but no one has see it yet.
PS i do not believe there is group required content , at least so far we have been told its optional.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Gah, this thread made my head hurt. So much hate and bashing, so much fanboism.
My take is that this game is still pretty solidly in development so things will be changing ... a lot. It's hard to talk about how a game pans out that's not even in beta yet.
About the Jedi healing, so what? Maybe right now the Consular is healing, but maybe later when the game releases, crowd control will be more important than healing! Who knows how combat will be balanced or set up at release?
I LOVE ALL THE POST CREATING SENERIOS ON WHY THE COMBAT WAS SO BORING AND STATIC.
Maybe this or maybe that, how about maybe the games combat is static and boring.
EVERY single video released has static and boring combat in it w/o exception, so yeah.
I mean that doesn't mean people will not enjoy the game but lets not PRETEND its somethign other than what it currently is.
PS i do not believe there is group required content , at least so far we have been told its optional.
While I agree with your post overall, but they said that Aion didn't require grouping to level which maybe true but group grinding and instances allows you to level a lot faster. So, even if it is optional doesn't mean its a decent progression through the game. Overall, I feel SWTOR will disappoint a lot of people. IMO SWTOR = WAR with cutscenes.
My take is that this game is still pretty solidly in development so things will be changing ... a lot. It's hard to talk about how a game pans out that's not even in beta yet.
About the Jedi healing, so what? Maybe right now the Consular is healing, but maybe later when the game releases, crowd control will be more important than healing! Who knows how combat will be balanced or set up at release?
This.
A more sensible voice amidst the cacophony of wild and biased assumptions from either side.
To add to it, some things Bioware devs haven't talked about yet because they feel it isn't in a well rounded state yet, and other things they HAVE talked about, hasn't been shown yet: in short, there is still a lot unclear how it'll be or how it will look and feel.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Oh the nerd-rage every time someone comes and says something somewhat negative about this game - hilarious, really. So unless someone has devoted the past few years to reading up on every detail of this game, he/she is not entitled to an opinion? I think this is not the first report of the game being somewhat underwhelming in terms of mechanics. Does that mean that it will fail? No. They still got time to polish it. But I think it is a safe bet that SWToR will not re-invent MMO gaming, but seems to stick to a lot of established ideas. I'd call the the WoW-route. But this near-religious devotion of some people to something as trivial as a computer game (or rather the idea thereof) is just mind-boggling...and sort of sad.
Whilst the Consular CAN heal, it aint the ONLY healer. This has already been confirmed.
Personally I don't a see problem with a Jedi type class being able to heal, just as I don't see a problem with the FACT that the Smuggler can apparently heal. This situation reminds me a lot of AOC. 3 different healers, one that is just a bit better than the rest but not necessarily the ONLY one that can do the job. That means that potentially the Consular will be the ONLY healer in demand. Also consider the FACT that it has already been confirmed that the Consular has a Melee Specialisation.
Both of these facts, dispell the screams that the class is a one trick pony or the Heal Bot of SWTOR. It isn't. Far from it.
As for the screams about the inclusion of the "Holy Trinity", I'd love to know what MMO's actually managed to get away from that role configuration WHILST ensuring that diversity is maintained. They all adhere to it in some form or another. Why? Because those are the three DISTINCT roles in a group. When you break it down, you could have 20 different classes that can heal, and 20 different classes that can DPS and 20 different tank types. The game would still be adhering to the holy trinity. Now some may still have a problem with this. Why? Because it's been done before? Come on.
The only way you could COMPLETELY do away with it would be to remove the distinction that separates the roles, and thus EVERY role becomes the same. Where anyone can heal, dps AND tank. Evidence of that are in typical FPS games. And, in my opinion, such lack of diversity is boring as hell. I sure as hell wouldn't subscribe to such a game.
The SWTOR class configuration somewhat echoes what was done in AOC, which creates diversity in which class performs which role, whilst ensuring classes remain distinct.
So, don't like it? Then don't play it.
If you've got a better suggestion regarding the design? Then sure, offer it.
Just don't sit there and bitch about something for the sake of it. Especially when you don't have all of the information yet. Because that is pointless.
Showing a group demo that implied the requirement of the 'holy trinity' might not have been the best dynamic to highlight in general. What would have been better for Bioware to do is focus on showing the camera from a ranged attack view (which might be a consular's path with their potential telekinectic/foce abilities) instead of as a generic heal-bot. I am a huge fan of the game and am looking forward to release, but highlighting a tired mechanic doesn't do much to glorify the game to the general audience.
Ya know, SWTOR has features like ANY OTHER MMOs, so whats the news or bad thing about it? Maybe I am dense but... a MMO has a class which can heal in a group? AAAND? How is that the end of the world, when every other MMORPG has that as well? How else are teams supposed to cooperate? Yes you can do potion spamming, but IMO that quite sucks. It means zero group cooperation.
I dunno why some people get into an emotional tantrum every time we see something in SWTOR that is as we already are used to? TOR is a great and otherwise normal MMO. Which is fine with me. It isnt the Holy Grail, so what? Sheesh.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Oh the nerd-rage every time someone comes and says something somewhat negative about this game - hilarious, really. So unless someone has devoted the past few years to reading up on every detail of this game, he/she is not entitled to an opinion?
I think it's more the sometimes baffling stupidity in the arguments used that annoys a lot of people - at least people like me.
And not only about SW TOR, regarding other games and topics as well. But then again, expecting reason, a degree of common sense and sensible debate on internet forums is maybe as futile as looking for four-leaf clovers in a field of grass.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Showing a group demo that implied the requirement of the 'holy trinity' might not have been the best dynamic to highlight in general. What would have been better for Bioware to do is focus on showing the camera from a ranged attack view (which might be a consular's path with their potential telekinectic/foce abilities) instead of as a generic heal-bot. I am a huge fan of the game and am looking forward to release, but highlighting a tired mechanic doesn't do much to glorify the game to the general audience.
The same could be said if the Consular was using their ranged attack abilities instead of healing. But I still wouldn't agree that the mechanic is "tired".
A healer class often makes a good "camera" for a group combat scenario video because the mobs aren't in the characters face, and there isn't wild graphical effects going off everywhere which you would see when playing a typical ranged dps class. So because of this, it makes sense for BW to use the Consular in this respect, the character could stand back, giving the viewers the widest view of the combat scene.
Now, I suppose they could have used the Smuggler instead, but then some silly article writer for a well known MMO website would probably then write "I imagined the Smuggler to be more like Han Solo. Han never healed someone. I never imagined BW would turn the Smuggler primarily into a Heal Bot. I died a bit inside when I saw this at E3". Which, as we know already, is a false assumption.
Perhaps an alternative would have been to have 3 classes against the boss, and a fourth stood back acting as the "camera". But that would have not provided much benefit.
Ya know, SWTOR has features like ANY OTHER MMOs, so whats the news or bad thing about it? Maybe I am dense but... a MMO has a class which can heal in a group? AAAND? How is that the end of the world, when every other MMORPG has that as well? How else are teams supposed to cooperate? Yes you can do potion spamming, but IMO that quite sucks. It means zero group cooperation. I dunno why some people get into an emotional tantrum every time we see something in SWTOR that is as we already are used to? TOR is a great and otherwise normal MMO. Which is fine with me. It isnt the Holy Grail, so what? Sheesh.
A very realistic viewpoint, bravo. It's a shame that others couldn't learn from your objectivity.
Personally I dont see a problem with there being classes that CAN heal in a new MMO. In fact, I'd be more concerned if there WASN'T at least one class that could heal in the MMO. Because then I'd begin to wonder about the distinctions in the roles.
I like playing COD and Left4Dead 2 with my friends, but I certainly wouldn't want to pay for an MMO based on them. The gameplay is bland in comparison to MMO's. Likewise, remove the distinctions between the roles for classes in an MMO and all that's left are FPS style roles, with players running around using pots or heal packs on each other. Which in my opinion is ok for a small amount of playtime, but is boring in the long run.
Plus like you say, distinctions between the roles for classes creates dependancy and group cooperation.
Ya know, SWTOR has features like ANY OTHER MMOs, so whats the news or bad thing about it? Maybe I am dense but... a MMO has a class which can heal in a group? AAAND? How is that the end of the world, when every other MMORPG has that as well? How else are teams supposed to cooperate? Yes you can do potion spamming, but IMO that quite sucks. It means zero group cooperation. I dunno why some people get into an emotional tantrum every time we see something in SWTOR that is as we already are used to? TOR is a great and otherwise normal MMO. Which is fine with me. It isnt the Holy Grail, so what? Sheesh.
Well put.
The difference is that for you this "otherwise normal MMO" is fine, which is cool since it's your own preference.
However for other people otherwise normal MMO = Totally bland, boring, unimaginative and without any real longevity.
Add to this the fact that the setting is Star Wars which has a buttload of fans it's quite understandable why there would be quite a lot of people voicing concerns and worries about what the game has to offer, since their expectations are or should i say were quite high.
Honestly, I think this video should at least stir some doubt in the fanboys. Just because it 'might' be possible to not mimick the video does not mean that that type of combat isn't clearly shown, or that it won't be the norm.
I'm not saying either way will happen, but we've seen that bioware clearly made it possible to play that way, and that is a design decision, not something people do just for a video. If they really wanted a camera, it's easy enough to make one w/ out having to implement combat mechanics that cater to it, that just doesn't happen.
If they truly had interesting combat mechanics it would have been shown in a combat video, period. Call me what you want, but I find this a little worrisome to be honest. The rest of the game looks promising, but the combat does not inspire confidence or interest imho.
Well the best thing I read about the group video was the Consolar was sitting back and healing more becuase they were also the camera for the entire clip so they were trying to capture enough of the group experiance while still playing. I thought they did an exceptional job of that. Also remember this is a low low level encounter something that is below level 10 from my understanding so the powers and maybe even the AC wernt as effective as they will become! I think it's pretty darn cool a trooper can hold agro and tank as a ranged player that early in the game!
Sheer laziness accounts for the poor writing in this article. To find out the truth of the speculation given on just the Consular class alone took not but a couple of minutes and dispelled all of the writers expressed fears. This of course isn't a suprise, the writing staff seems to be lazy a lot lately and the community is growing increasingly lazy too in general. The only thing here that is "underwhelming" is this article.
Once again, an article in which the writer looks objectively at WHAT'S BEING SHOWN TO THEM BY THE GAME'S DEVELOPERS, and posters start bashing the article because the writer does not fall to his knees and praise every aspect of the game.
Echelon, above, for instance, seems to think that despite Bitton being shown a demo of the game by BW, 3ft. from his face, he should have scoured the internet for more information on his article about the demo that he just watched. Ech apparently believes that if a writer doesn't like what info his given by the company making the game that said writer should comb the internet and find info that he does like so he can write a more positive article. Ridiculous.
Dameonk admits that for "real" news, he goes to fan sites, obviously you'll find objective opinions there! fcazares doesn't bother with anything constructive, just calls the writer lazy, again, for watching a demo shown to him by BW and reporting his feelings on what he saw.
It is not the fault of the writer that BW chose to have the consular stand still and just throw heals for aesthetic purposes, if that is in fact the case.
At any rate, the demo does show clear evidence of a "holy trinity" style of group play. trooper tanks with jedi off-tanking/crowd control, smuggler doing DPS, consular throwing heals.
Now, I know that the game's loyal defenders will pounce, screaming, "but there's more expertise trees, advanced class system!!!" It makes absolutely no difference. Within 6 months the "must have" expertise builds will be figured out, making professions cookie-cutter, and you'll have to use one of these builds or be cast out for your herecy, to quote BW devs, "similar to WoW."
I'm still holding out hope for this game, but I admit that what I saw from E3, THROUGH MY OWN INVESTIGATING, has left me a bit underwhelmed as well.
'I'm Commander Hyperfish and this is my favourite post on this now completely derailed forum topic....'
Oh the nerd-rage every time someone comes and says something somewhat negative about this game - hilarious, really. So unless someone has devoted the past few years to reading up on every detail of this game, he/she is not entitled to an opinion?
I think it's more the sometimes baffling stupidity in the arguments used that annoys a lot of people - at least people like me.
And not only about SW TOR, regarding other games and topics as well. But then again, expecting reason, a degree of common sense and sensible debate on internet forums is maybe as futile as looking for four-leaf clovers in a field of grass.
True but even I can see it's starting to go far beyond that. At first the "haters" were by far the most irrational basing ideas and assumptions on the entire game from very small pieces of information. This escalated to ridiculous amounts and I can totally understand why defenders became more aggressive to people who had no intention of listening to them and just wanted to continue moaning about the game.
But now the defenders have passed the point of agression due to sheer annoyance and quite frankly are becoming just as bad and irrational as the supposed "haters". They don't want to hear anything negative about the game, what so ever even if it is a perfectly reasonable and rational opinion from a piece of information. They've started making excuses to explain away every single flaw with the game and attack the competency of reviewers purely because they had a different opinion of the gamplay shown to them.
They've started to disrespect any opinion that is different to there own and that is simply unacceptable. Just because a load of irrational moaners spread crap about your game on a day basis doesn't give you the the viciously attack anyone with a logical critique of the game.
People need to start respecting people with different opinions to there own especially when their opinion is based on perfectly valid evidence.
Unfortunately, in this industry, the success of the end product can actually be jeopordized by the community. These games live and die at the whim of our wallets. When a bunch of people sit around constantly blasting a game for imagined wrongdoing, some of the people reading the posts who were on the fence about the game may get an unearned bad impression of it. So in a sense, it's not really trivial, is it?
I see your point but i do fear you undermind that full concept of community; the word itself has little meaning now adays and is clearly over used and often misuse, not that the definition is wrong but rather the context and depth of the word has been lost. The idea of a community is very complex and intricate and involves more than just the people and perceptions in it, but also involves how these people and perceptions interact and what resources, foundations, and ideas are found in this community that either hold it together or tare it apart. Take WoW for example some would say that the community is a mockery in the MMO genre and is full of people who are simple minded, hateful, children, etc.. etc... etc... and yet it still thrives, why because it has implemented foundations,ideas and resources that hold the people who participate in the game together, it was able to take the positive and negative aspects of the community and allow them to mesh at some level with the occasional outliers.
So yes in a way negativity can destroy a community but only if there are not any factors within said community to offset and even retract such negativity, and even beyond that the community can become even more of a complex idea when you factor in the variety of cultures and subcultures that are within them and how the perceptions of those cultures interact etc.. etc.. etc... And in the gaming world there are many sub cultures of the "gaming culture", our wallets may pay for the games to keep running but our mouths won't always close the wallets of a games community if all of its factors work together, both the good and the bad, since even games with so called great communities have failed for one reason or another and thus why i say it is trivial, because in the end no one can say how things will mesh.
Therefor I am sticking to these debate being trivial at least as it applies to us and not as it applies to the producers of such games. Kinda like how i think the debate on gay marriage is trivial or that of abortion but i wont go there.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Comments
Star WoWs! No thanks!
I couldn't agree more with you. Honestly, 90% of the articles here are just horrible. The staff of this website are just doing their job. There is no indication that they are actually fans of the genre.
Reading through not just the E3 articles, but really anything written by the staff members just makes me cringe. It seems like they have no real experience with the genre, past WoW.
I go to other websites for real news and articles about the genre. Usually fan sites such as Darth Hater and FFXIVCore.
I really only come here for the forums. (If you couldn't tell by my post count
)
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Sheer laziness accounts for the poor writing in this article. To find out the truth of the speculation given on just the Consular class alone took not but a couple of minutes and dispelled all of the writers expressed fears. This of course isn't a suprise, the writing staff seems to be lazy a lot lately and the community is growing increasingly lazy too in general. The only thing here that is "underwhelming" is this article.
Fortunately, this was offset slightly by the fact that they're using the dialogue system from mass effect(and not dragon age), so now we have a game with 8 different Commander Sheppards, if you will.
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I'm inclined to agree, because I think we all know what's going to happen in the end when the game ships and the community gets to know the game a bit. You WILL be relegated to a position of a healbot solely because you CAN be one.
I posted it elsewhere, but might as well post it here too.
About the Jedi Consular:
Quote: From what we were shown, this class is far from being a simple caster. Part melee, part puppeteer, part healer; the Jedi Consular could end up filling multiple play styles - Darth Hater Extravaganza
Quote: "The Jedi consular is more based in telekinetics" - Gamespot Dec 3rd
Abilities seem to include Mind Maze, Force Pull, Force Slam, Benevolence, Meditation, Clear casting & Force Repulse - Darth Hater Extravaganza
Consular is a rear line support fighter not a front line melee. - PCGames Translation
Consulars can use the doublebladed Lightsaber - Holonet
About healing:
Healing: Several classes can heal, Healing is NOT a requirement of TOR and healing has been done with a twist in TOR - IGN Q & A
One of these methods that have already been revealed how they plan to avoid the Trinity trap are the Companions that act as smart versatile pets, they're this much enhanced that when a team of 4 has no class with strong healing abilities, then they can bring 4 healing companions and still be good. So no class is bby definition 'locked' into a 'one trick pony' role.
Oh, for more detailed information about the Classes, the worlds and the gameplay, look here
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Once again, an article in which the writer looks objectively at WHAT'S BEING SHOWN TO THEM BY THE GAME'S DEVELOPERS, and posters start bashing the article because the writer does not fall to his knees and praise every aspect of the game.
Echelon, above, for instance, seems to think that despite Bitton being shown a demo of the game by BW, 3ft. from his face, he should have scoured the internet for more information on his article about the demo that he just watched. Ech apparently believes that if a writer doesn't like what info his given by the company making the game that said writer should comb the internet and find info that he does like so he can write a more positive article. Ridiculous.
Dameonk admits that for "real" news, he goes to fan sites, obviously you'll find objective opinions there! fcazares doesn't bother with anything constructive, just calls the writer lazy, again, for watching a demo shown to him by BW and reporting his feelings on what he saw.
It is not the fault of the writer that BW chose to have the consular stand still and just throw heals for aesthetic purposes, if that is in fact the case.
At any rate, the demo does show clear evidence of a "holy trinity" style of group play. trooper tanks with jedi off-tanking/crowd control, smuggler doing DPS, consular throwing heals.
Now, I know that the game's loyal defenders will pounce, screaming, "but there's more expertise trees, advanced class system!!!" It makes absolutely no difference. Within 6 months the "must have" expertise builds will be figured out, making professions cookie-cutter, and you'll have to use one of these builds or be cast out for your herecy, to quote BW devs, "similar to WoW."
I'm still holding out hope for this game, but I admit that what I saw from E3, THROUGH MY OWN INVESTIGATING, has left me a bit underwhelmed as well.
It occurs to me, though not suddenly, that while the Consular is ostensibly not intended to function as a heal-bot, the evidence so far suggests that it CAN function as such.
So, with that premise (flawed or not, and I welcome debate), if a healing specced Consular is actually skilled at healing above other things they can provide (and they should be, since in our example they are specced), is it not unreasonable to think that the player base in general will demand an in-party Consular to do exactly this? At least for group-required content?
Following the same trend as WoW (sword rogues for dps, healing specced paladins, prot warriors, etc), is it possible that, while the Consular can theoretically fill other roles, its most popular incarnation will be the stationary healer? This is somewhat mitigated by the game's single-player strengths. For the sake of argument let's say a hybrid Consular refuses to conform to the group's demand for a respec to a total healer role (or is otherwise denied a space in the group because of it). It's not such a huge blow because that player can likely tackle the same content solo. But I imagine the game is not 100% solo-able, and that some of the best loot drops come from the group content. Speculation, yes, but grounded in MMO history, and the knowledge that BioWare is not breaking any molds, here.
I'd be curious to see how Consular companions are fitted out. Although I seem to remember Bioware saying that players could not allocate their companion's 'path points'. Still, I'm rather curious if the most popular Consular companion is the heal-bot version spamming Benevolence.
I LOVE ALL THE POST CREATING SENERIOS ON WHY THE COMBAT WAS SO BORING AND STATIC.
Maybe this or maybe that, how about maybe the games combat is static and boring.
EVERY single video released has static and boring combat in it w/o exception, so yeah.
I mean that doesn't mean people will not enjoy the game but lets not PRETEND its somethign other than what it currently is.Maybe in the future it will all be action and fluid but no one has see it yet.
PS i do not believe there is group required content , at least so far we have been told its optional.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Gah, this thread made my head hurt. So much hate and bashing, so much fanboism.
My take is that this game is still pretty solidly in development so things will be changing ... a lot. It's hard to talk about how a game pans out that's not even in beta yet.
About the Jedi healing, so what? Maybe right now the Consular is healing, but maybe later when the game releases, crowd control will be more important than healing! Who knows how combat will be balanced or set up at release?
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
While I agree with your post overall, but they said that Aion didn't require grouping to level which maybe true but group grinding and instances allows you to level a lot faster. So, even if it is optional doesn't mean its a decent progression through the game. Overall, I feel SWTOR will disappoint a lot of people. IMO SWTOR = WAR with cutscenes.
This.
A more sensible voice amidst the cacophony of wild and biased assumptions from either side.
To add to it, some things Bioware devs haven't talked about yet because they feel it isn't in a well rounded state yet, and other things they HAVE talked about, hasn't been shown yet: in short, there is still a lot unclear how it'll be or how it will look and feel.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Oh the nerd-rage every time someone comes and says something somewhat negative about this game - hilarious, really. So unless someone has devoted the past few years to reading up on every detail of this game, he/she is not entitled to an opinion? I think this is not the first report of the game being somewhat underwhelming in terms of mechanics. Does that mean that it will fail? No. They still got time to polish it. But I think it is a safe bet that SWToR will not re-invent MMO gaming, but seems to stick to a lot of established ideas. I'd call the the WoW-route. But this near-religious devotion of some people to something as trivial as a computer game (or rather the idea thereof) is just mind-boggling...and sort of sad.
Whilst the Consular CAN heal, it aint the ONLY healer. This has already been confirmed.
Personally I don't a see problem with a Jedi type class being able to heal, just as I don't see a problem with the FACT that the Smuggler can apparently heal. This situation reminds me a lot of AOC. 3 different healers, one that is just a bit better than the rest but not necessarily the ONLY one that can do the job. That means that potentially the Consular will be the ONLY healer in demand. Also consider the FACT that it has already been confirmed that the Consular has a Melee Specialisation.
Both of these facts, dispell the screams that the class is a one trick pony or the Heal Bot of SWTOR. It isn't. Far from it.
As for the screams about the inclusion of the "Holy Trinity", I'd love to know what MMO's actually managed to get away from that role configuration WHILST ensuring that diversity is maintained. They all adhere to it in some form or another. Why? Because those are the three DISTINCT roles in a group. When you break it down, you could have 20 different classes that can heal, and 20 different classes that can DPS and 20 different tank types. The game would still be adhering to the holy trinity. Now some may still have a problem with this. Why? Because it's been done before? Come on.
The only way you could COMPLETELY do away with it would be to remove the distinction that separates the roles, and thus EVERY role becomes the same. Where anyone can heal, dps AND tank. Evidence of that are in typical FPS games. And, in my opinion, such lack of diversity is boring as hell. I sure as hell wouldn't subscribe to such a game.
The SWTOR class configuration somewhat echoes what was done in AOC, which creates diversity in which class performs which role, whilst ensuring classes remain distinct.
So, don't like it? Then don't play it.
If you've got a better suggestion regarding the design? Then sure, offer it.
Just don't sit there and bitch about something for the sake of it. Especially when you don't have all of the information yet. Because that is pointless.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Showing a group demo that implied the requirement of the 'holy trinity' might not have been the best dynamic to highlight in general. What would have been better for Bioware to do is focus on showing the camera from a ranged attack view (which might be a consular's path with their potential telekinectic/foce abilities) instead of as a generic heal-bot. I am a huge fan of the game and am looking forward to release, but highlighting a tired mechanic doesn't do much to glorify the game to the general audience.
I dunno why some people get into an emotional tantrum every time we see something in SWTOR that is as we already are used to? TOR is a great and otherwise normal MMO. Which is fine with me. It isnt the Holy Grail, so what? Sheesh.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think it's more the sometimes baffling stupidity in the arguments used that annoys a lot of people - at least people like me.
And not only about SW TOR, regarding other games and topics as well. But then again, expecting reason, a degree of common sense and sensible debate on internet forums is maybe as futile as looking for four-leaf clovers in a field of grass.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The same could be said if the Consular was using their ranged attack abilities instead of healing. But I still wouldn't agree that the mechanic is "tired".
A healer class often makes a good "camera" for a group combat scenario video because the mobs aren't in the characters face, and there isn't wild graphical effects going off everywhere which you would see when playing a typical ranged dps class. So because of this, it makes sense for BW to use the Consular in this respect, the character could stand back, giving the viewers the widest view of the combat scene.
Now, I suppose they could have used the Smuggler instead, but then some silly article writer for a well known MMO website would probably then write "I imagined the Smuggler to be more like Han Solo. Han never healed someone. I never imagined BW would turn the Smuggler primarily into a Heal Bot. I died a bit inside when I saw this at E3". Which, as we know already, is a false assumption.
Perhaps an alternative would have been to have 3 classes against the boss, and a fourth stood back acting as the "camera". But that would have not provided much benefit.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
A very realistic viewpoint, bravo. It's a shame that others couldn't learn from your objectivity.
Personally I dont see a problem with there being classes that CAN heal in a new MMO. In fact, I'd be more concerned if there WASN'T at least one class that could heal in the MMO. Because then I'd begin to wonder about the distinctions in the roles.
I like playing COD and Left4Dead 2 with my friends, but I certainly wouldn't want to pay for an MMO based on them. The gameplay is bland in comparison to MMO's. Likewise, remove the distinctions between the roles for classes in an MMO and all that's left are FPS style roles, with players running around using pots or heal packs on each other. Which in my opinion is ok for a small amount of playtime, but is boring in the long run.
Plus like you say, distinctions between the roles for classes creates dependancy and group cooperation.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Well put.
The difference is that for you this "otherwise normal MMO" is fine, which is cool since it's your own preference.
However for other people otherwise normal MMO = Totally bland, boring, unimaginative and without any real longevity.
Add to this the fact that the setting is Star Wars which has a buttload of fans it's quite understandable why there would be quite a lot of people voicing concerns and worries about what the game has to offer, since their expectations are or should i say were quite high.
Honestly, I think this video should at least stir some doubt in the fanboys. Just because it 'might' be possible to not mimick the video does not mean that that type of combat isn't clearly shown, or that it won't be the norm.
I'm not saying either way will happen, but we've seen that bioware clearly made it possible to play that way, and that is a design decision, not something people do just for a video. If they really wanted a camera, it's easy enough to make one w/ out having to implement combat mechanics that cater to it, that just doesn't happen.
If they truly had interesting combat mechanics it would have been shown in a combat video, period. Call me what you want, but I find this a little worrisome to be honest. The rest of the game looks promising, but the combat does not inspire confidence or interest imho.
Well the best thing I read about the group video was the Consolar was sitting back and healing more becuase they were also the camera for the entire clip so they were trying to capture enough of the group experiance while still playing. I thought they did an exceptional job of that. Also remember this is a low low level encounter something that is below level 10 from my understanding so the powers and maybe even the AC wernt as effective as they will become! I think it's pretty darn cool a trooper can hold agro and tank as a ranged player that early in the game!
'I'm Commander Hyperfish and this is my favourite post on this now completely derailed forum topic....'
True but even I can see it's starting to go far beyond that. At first the "haters" were by far the most irrational basing ideas and assumptions on the entire game from very small pieces of information. This escalated to ridiculous amounts and I can totally understand why defenders became more aggressive to people who had no intention of listening to them and just wanted to continue moaning about the game.
But now the defenders have passed the point of agression due to sheer annoyance and quite frankly are becoming just as bad and irrational as the supposed "haters". They don't want to hear anything negative about the game, what so ever even if it is a perfectly reasonable and rational opinion from a piece of information. They've started making excuses to explain away every single flaw with the game and attack the competency of reviewers purely because they had a different opinion of the gamplay shown to them.
They've started to disrespect any opinion that is different to there own and that is simply unacceptable. Just because a load of irrational moaners spread crap about your game on a day basis doesn't give you the the viciously attack anyone with a logical critique of the game.
People need to start respecting people with different opinions to there own especially when their opinion is based on perfectly valid evidence.
I see your point but i do fear you undermind that full concept of community; the word itself has little meaning now adays and is clearly over used and often misuse, not that the definition is wrong but rather the context and depth of the word has been lost. The idea of a community is very complex and intricate and involves more than just the people and perceptions in it, but also involves how these people and perceptions interact and what resources, foundations, and ideas are found in this community that either hold it together or tare it apart. Take WoW for example some would say that the community is a mockery in the MMO genre and is full of people who are simple minded, hateful, children, etc.. etc... etc... and yet it still thrives, why because it has implemented foundations,ideas and resources that hold the people who participate in the game together, it was able to take the positive and negative aspects of the community and allow them to mesh at some level with the occasional outliers.
So yes in a way negativity can destroy a community but only if there are not any factors within said community to offset and even retract such negativity, and even beyond that the community can become even more of a complex idea when you factor in the variety of cultures and subcultures that are within them and how the perceptions of those cultures interact etc.. etc.. etc... And in the gaming world there are many sub cultures of the "gaming culture", our wallets may pay for the games to keep running but our mouths won't always close the wallets of a games community if all of its factors work together, both the good and the bad, since even games with so called great communities have failed for one reason or another and thus why i say it is trivial, because in the end no one can say how things will mesh.
Therefor I am sticking to these debate being trivial at least as it applies to us and not as it applies to the producers of such games. Kinda like how i think the debate on gay marriage is trivial or that of abortion but i wont go there.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.