So basically every game is heading for a flop until an update is released that changes things.
You should have said every game since the beginning of the MMO era was heading towards being a flop according to you.. We would have saved some time.
I didn't know the servers crashed at E3.. dang, must have been a horrible presentation.
The server didn't crash (at least not that I'm aware of), it generally bombed at E3 due to its gameplay. On the subject of presentation/demonstration though, yeah it was horrible. At least the one they videoed and got posted here. It didn't actually do them any favours.
No, not every game is heading for a flop until its updated. Just those that aren't great and need evidence of improvement.
No, not every game is heading for a flop until its updated. Just those that aren't great and need evidence of improvement.
Care to provide some examples of games that aren't in need of evidence of improvement during the beta stage? Also if you can, some examples of games that were great during beta stage as well?
Oh yeah, the commercial "betas"... Lol. Forgot about those.
But yeah. SE failed at marketing their game. I guess that's what matters in the end, not the game itself? Okhay.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Not that I'm a fan, but WoW. It got a great responce during beta.
Champions Online did, although ironcially they did a "miracle patch" on launch day to balance and took it the other way. Which while improving since, has never truely recovered from.
Guild Wars was well received during its beta.
LotRO was also well received during beta.
Allods was receiving with a lot of positive feelings, until they introduced the cash shop.
All still needed improvements and some still do, but they didn't have (at least for the majority) game breaking design issues.
That's because the way the games were designed was so much different. None of those games were ready to be released at the start of the Beta phase, and if they were, it wasn't a proper Beta to begin with. Every single one of them needed improvement to succeed.
Not all the companies operate the same way.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
That is still under blind faith, and doesn't say anything other than we are going to get generally more of the same (ie. FF XI). Also that they don't take feedback seriously, by making bulk changes at the last moment, while not allowing time for further feedback and tuning to the majority taste. They are stuck in a rut, with development. With the only people liking it, being those that are tuned to that taste. That is not the market (at least solely) they have been claiming to be aiming for.
Ever thought for it to be successful, just maybe, they need to change their approach.
It doesn't say that we are going to get more of the same, where are you getting that from? In fact, it doesn't say anything else that things will change more than what you would expect, and because of this you can't say the game is heading towards being a flop.
Ever thought to be successful they may doing the right thing that other companies are too afraid to do in fear of losing subs if they don't do it the exact way other companies do.
"Tuning" can be done later, if necessary. Little gripes won't make anyone turn away from the game, but if the game is boring and something we've already seen million times before or a bug infested product, that surely will.
Now YOU are going off by baseless assumptions.
The whole issue here is "oh my god, someone is doing things differently from the norm... it can't be successful!! We need even more Aion/Warhammer/AoC to learn!"
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Not that I'm a fan, but WoW. It got a great responce during beta.
Champions Online did, although ironcially they did a "miracle patch" on launch day to balance and took it the other way. Which while improving since, has never truely recovered from.
Guild Wars was well received during its beta.
LotRO was also well received during beta.
All still needed improvements and some still do, but they didn't have (at least for the majority) game breaking design issues.
None of those games are even close to the quality of FFXIV, i have played them all but Champions online, and only the beta beats them all by far that even seems im playing a PS3 solo game .Also when GW and WOW came out there was just a hand full of games to compare them to, not like now , that everyone and their pet is a critic.
Im not talking if you gonna like it or not, Im talking bout how complex the game is in itself. Lets add to that that none of those had to be compatible for both PC and PS3.Of course is gonna have problems,All you mentioned did. What problems does FFXIV have as of now ? Mouse problems and server crashed on a test server load day.!DOH!
(yea they did say it if testers read the small lines, If they said up front" You wont be able to log in today but try to log on all day so we can test server load" no 1 would had tryed to log in at all.
So its going to fail becouse of this ?Balancing the classes and such is a long term thin since they are adding a lot more classes is not somethin that it cant be done at release.The battle system is slow , yes , but that has been made that way on porpouse becouse the game is not a face paced RPG but more strategy like game. If you dont like it thats ok. Is made following the FF IP not following the WOW clone IP( i enjoyed a lot wow btw).Same goes with monsters and such.No point to tell anyone they must like it becouse (insert reason here) the game is like it is, not everyone will like it , even if they said they would try to bring new player base , the core will be a FF game after all.
The game will not fail whatever happends , from the company point of view.It will problably fail for a lot of people expecting to see more of the same ,or to people waiting for a perfect game.There will be a lot of subs, and there will be a lot of people having fun playing it.
EDIT:
Also, FFXIV =/= FFXI, its have some similarities, but far to many diferences to make a judgment on FFXIV based on FFXI. Thats just wrong.
Their development process simply highlights they develop to a set taste, and any feedback while acknowled (to a degree) is not a process that heavily involves the playerbase. They take feedback, then don't continue to use the testers for any indepth refinement or much validation that its to their taste. Instead its a bulk push, when a more incremental process would fine tune things to what would ultimately attract more players.
That's why its likely to end up as more of the same, as there's a sence they are developing games for themselves and not (truely) looking to broaden interest in the series. Which is a great shame.
They are very good at stoylines, etc, but when it comes to core mechanics they are years behind the general industry.
Their developt process simply highlights they develop to a set taste, and any feedback while acknowled (to a degree) is not a process that heavily involves the playerbase. They take feedback, then don't continue to use the testers for any indepth refinement or much validation that its to their taste. Instead its a bulk push, when a more incremental process would fine tune things to what would ultimtly attract more players.
That's why its likely to end up as more of the same, as there's a sence they are developing games for themselves and not (truely) looking to broaden interest in the series. Which is a great shame.
They are very good at stoylines, etc, but when it comes to core mechanics they are years behind the general industry.
Lack of fine tuning is not a reason to not play the game. Only the extreme purists are going to be turned away by the game because of simple issues that may irritate some once or twice but most do not care about, as long as the game is fun to play.
The fact is that They are developing the game and not the playerbase, which is how it should be.
Will be funny when developing to a set taste makes the game a success while the games with "better core mechanics" keep failing like they always do. You really should not bite more than you can chew.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
As I said, all indications and especially from E3 is this game is not going to succeed. It for sure will shift a lot of boxes, but until its improved that's it. That truely is a shame, which is the main reason I personnally feel they need to change how they develop things.
Beta testers are usually part of the development process, and are used to refine the game to what they believe will pull in the most people. Likewise the playbase become very improtant in the post-launch releases. Hence why most companies have test servers. By minimising such involvement does not boad well.
As I said, all indications and epecially from E3 is this game is not going to succeed. It for sure will shift a lot of boxes, but until its improved that's it.
Beta testers are usually part of the development process, and are used to refine the game to what they believe will pull in the most people. Likewise the playbase become very improtant in the post-launch releases. Hence why most companies have test servers. By minimising such invovement does not boad well.
I still don't understand how you came to a conclusion that they are minimizing the beta tester involvement. It makes no sense.
SE uses their in-house team to get rid of the bugs- testers need not bother with such issues. But they are purposedly having things open ended so that the testers can provide feedback and determine how they are going to proceed from there-on.
I think that means the testers have much bigger impact in the game than if the core mechanics were already determined before the beta even begun, and testers were used to find out bugs and give little feedback about all the small issues that they found in the gameplay.
Like this, we decide what direction the development of the core mechanics will take. That's a lot of involvement right there, which other betas don't even provide, especially the ones used for simply commercial purposes.
We can't affect the fine tuning which is possible in other betas, but we can affect the core of things which in other betas you Can Not because it has been already decided.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
If only that were true, or at least to any depth. Its not how they development games though. As you've said, they do things differently. They do use external testers, but by no means to great depth in the overall process compaired to other companies. In truth it feels like nothing more than a sanity check.
In a game like this where things are not like they are in WoW, making sure the core mechanics come as close to the player's wishes as possible is pretty damn important, much more-so than in other games that KNOW that these features are going to be well received, because hey, if WoW did it, it must work.
But aside from that, for saying such things I want to hear what you're basing it on.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
That would have to be a dicussion for post launch, due to the nda.
It not an issue of not being like WoW. I'm personnally greatful for that. It is however an issue of making a popular game, which is something they claim they want.
I don't really care if we have to take this to PM since I really want to know, but lol @ NDA, we have already broken it several times. We shouldn't say anything related to it. As long as we don't post pics or videos, they don't care.
If the issue is about being popular, then I hope you remember SE has a great deal of fans with a console that they just have to lure in to their new game like Blizzard lured WC3 and Diablo/SC players to WoW.
They have to make their own playerbase, and not steal it from other games. Which I find pretty good idea. Those players don't care about mouse controls, nor things that would matter to normal MMO player. If the game can be controlled with a pad, then they're good to go.
This game even has cities and open world to top it off!
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Well fundimetly, its as you state. The playerbase/beta testers aren't used for refinement. We just have to accept what's given. That's fine to an extent post launch, but during the development cycle it just demonstrates arrogance. They have stated they want FF XIV to be more mass market. To be so they need to change their practices.
Yes, FF is popular and is also the main reason I said it will shift a lot of boxes. However XI didn't do great in the west, due to its design. Have they learned from those mistakes? From what was seen at E3, they haven't.
I see some people saying they do not want to use a gamepad to play this game.
Kb & M is more precise, but they are very demanding posture-wise. Ultimately they are not good for you.
I did my best to try to get WoW to work with a gamepad. NOT raiding - but the grinding/leveling/bullshit - hell's yeah. Kick back, relax and go into the world comfortable. Why be hunched over a keyboard and mouse/have to configure yourself in an ergonomic position to handle the stress of a keyboard and mouse?
Kb & Mouse require a relatively stable/flat surface for leverage. A gamespad uses your hands/itself to balance itself. That is good stuff.
I see some people saying they do not want to use a gamepad to play this game.
Well, it's made for PC and PS3 version comes out later so I can see why they would want to use kb and mouse.
It's interesting why they decided to do it this way- I guess they want to avoid being limited by PS3 hardware in the future unlike with XI. Gives them half a year to polish the game for the PS3 masses too, I guess. Just have to potentially deal with a smaller playerbase for the first half a year- that is if they don't make the kb+mouse combo better. Which they will. Just how much though, is unknown.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Not that I'm a fan, but WoW. It got a great responce during beta.
Champions Online did, although ironcially they did a "miracle patch" on launch day to balance and took it the other way. Which while improving since, has never truely recovered from.
Guild Wars was well received during its beta.
LotRO was also well received during beta.
All still needed improvements and some still do, but they didn't have (at least for the majority) game breaking design issues.
None of those games are even close to the quality of FFXIV, i have played them all but Champions online, and only the beta beats them all by far that even seems im playing a PS3 solo game .Also when GW and WOW came out there was just a hand full of games to compare them to, not like now , that everyone and their pet is a critic.
Im not talking if you gonna like it or not, Im talking bout how complex the game is in itself. Lets add to that that none of those had to be compatible for both PC and PS3.Of course is gonna have problems,All you mentioned did. What problems does FFXIV have as of now ? Mouse problems and server crashed on a test server load day.!DOH!
(yea they did say it if testers read the small lines, If they said up front" You wont be able to log in today but try to log on all day so we can test server load" no 1 would had tryed to log in at all.
So its going to fail becouse of this ?Balancing the classes and such is a long term thin since they are adding a lot more classes is not somethin that it cant be done at release.The battle system is slow , yes , but that has been made that way on porpouse becouse the game is not a face paced RPG but more strategy like game. If you dont like it thats ok. Is made following the FF IP not following the WOW clone IP( i enjoyed a lot wow btw).Same goes with monsters and such.No point to tell anyone they must like it becouse (insert reason here) the game is like it is, not everyone will like it , even if they said they would try to bring new player base , the core will be a FF game after all.
The game will not fail whatever happends , from the company point of view.It will problably fail for a lot of people expecting to see more of the same ,or to people waiting for a perfect game.There will be a lot of subs, and there will be a lot of people having fun playing it.
EDIT:
Also, FFXIV =/= FFXI, its have some similarities, but far to many diferences to make a judgment on FFXIV based on FFXI. Thats just wrong.
Seriously, don't kid yourself. That is not the whole picture, or even accurate in parts.
E3 and other demonstrations have highlighted FF XIV does not have quality, other than in its graphics.
Not that I'm a fan, but WoW. It got a great responce during beta.
Champions Online did, although ironcially they did a "miracle patch" on launch day to balance and took it the other way. Which while improving since, has never truely recovered from.
Guild Wars was well received during its beta.
LotRO was also well received during beta.
All still needed improvements and some still do, but they didn't have (at least for the majority) game breaking design issues.
None of those games are even close to the quality of FFXIV, i have played them all but Champions online, and only the beta beats them all by far that even seems im playing a PS3 solo game .Also when GW and WOW came out there was just a hand full of games to compare them to, not like now , that everyone and their pet is a critic.
Im not talking if you gonna like it or not, Im talking bout how complex the game is in itself. Lets add to that that none of those had to be compatible for both PC and PS3.Of course is gonna have problems,All you mentioned did. What problems does FFXIV have as of now ? Mouse problems and server crashed on a test server load day.!DOH!
(yea they did say it if testers read the small lines, If they said up front" You wont be able to log in today but try to log on all day so we can test server load" no 1 would had tryed to log in at all.
So its going to fail becouse of this ?Balancing the classes and such is a long term thin since they are adding a lot more classes is not somethin that it cant be done at release.The battle system is slow , yes , but that has been made that way on porpouse becouse the game is not a face paced RPG but more strategy like game. If you dont like it thats ok. Is made following the FF IP not following the WOW clone IP( i enjoyed a lot wow btw).Same goes with monsters and such.No point to tell anyone they must like it becouse (insert reason here) the game is like it is, not everyone will like it , even if they said they would try to bring new player base , the core will be a FF game after all.
The game will not fail whatever happends , from the company point of view.It will problably fail for a lot of people expecting to see more of the same ,or to people waiting for a perfect game.There will be a lot of subs, and there will be a lot of people having fun playing it.
EDIT:
Also, FFXIV =/= FFXI, its have some similarities, but far to many diferences to make a judgment on FFXIV based on FFXI. Thats just wrong.
Seriously, don't kid yourself. That is not the whole picture, or even accurate in parts.
E3 and other demonstrations have highlighted FF XIV does not have quality, other than in its graphics.
Its likely the launch will be painful.
why would oyu make tha tkinda prediction they are stressign there server enough as is. i doubt launch will be that bad
You know that's not true, unless of course you are hearing it second hand.
Wait until they have the full influx at launch. Very few MMOs have a smooth launch. So if FF XIV does suffer, which is likely, its simply down to how quick SE can fix any issues.
You know that's not true, unless of course you are hearing it second hand.
Wait until they have the full influx at launch. Very few MMOs have a smooth launch. So if FF XIV does suffer, which is likely, its simply down to how quick SE can fix any issues.
your right but i doubt it will be as bad as some of the recent releases
Comments
The server didn't crash (at least not that I'm aware of), it generally bombed at E3 due to its gameplay. On the subject of presentation/demonstration though, yeah it was horrible. At least the one they videoed and got posted here. It didn't actually do them any favours.
No, not every game is heading for a flop until its updated. Just those that aren't great and need evidence of improvement.
Care to provide some examples of games that aren't in need of evidence of improvement during the beta stage? Also if you can, some examples of games that were great during beta stage as well?
Oh yeah, the commercial "betas"... Lol. Forgot about those.
But yeah. SE failed at marketing their game. I guess that's what matters in the end, not the game itself? Okhay.
Not that I'm a fan, but WoW. It got a great responce during beta.
Champions Online did, although ironcially they did a "miracle patch" on launch day to balance and took it the other way. Which while improving since, has never truely recovered from.
Guild Wars was well received during its beta.
LotRO was also well received during beta.
Allods was receiving with a lot of positive feelings, until they introduced the cash shop.
All still needed improvements and some still do, but they didn't have (at least for the majority) game breaking design issues.
That's because the way the games were designed was so much different. None of those games were ready to be released at the start of the Beta phase, and if they were, it wasn't a proper Beta to begin with. Every single one of them needed improvement to succeed.
Not all the companies operate the same way.
That is still under blind faith, and doesn't say anything other than we are going to get generally more of the same (ie. FF XI). Also that they don't take feedback seriously, by making bulk changes at the last moment, while not allowing time for further feedback and tuning to the majority taste. They are stuck in a rut, with development. With the only people liking it, being those that are tuned to that taste. That is not the market (at least solely) they have been claiming to be aiming for.
Ever thought for it to be successful, just maybe, they need to change their approach.
It doesn't say that we are going to get more of the same, where are you getting that from? In fact, it doesn't say anything else that things will change more than what you would expect, and because of this you can't say the game is heading towards being a flop.
Ever thought to be successful they may doing the right thing that other companies are too afraid to do in fear of losing subs if they don't do it the exact way other companies do.
"Tuning" can be done later, if necessary. Little gripes won't make anyone turn away from the game, but if the game is boring and something we've already seen million times before or a bug infested product, that surely will.
Now YOU are going off by baseless assumptions.
The whole issue here is "oh my god, someone is doing things differently from the norm... it can't be successful!! We need even more Aion/Warhammer/AoC to learn!"
None of those games are even close to the quality of FFXIV, i have played them all but Champions online, and only the beta beats them all by far that even seems im playing a PS3 solo game .Also when GW and WOW came out there was just a hand full of games to compare them to, not like now , that everyone and their pet is a critic.
Im not talking if you gonna like it or not, Im talking bout how complex the game is in itself. Lets add to that that none of those had to be compatible for both PC and PS3.Of course is gonna have problems,All you mentioned did. What problems does FFXIV have as of now ? Mouse problems and server crashed on a test server load day.!DOH!
(yea they did say it if testers read the small lines, If they said up front" You wont be able to log in today but try to log on all day so we can test server load" no 1 would had tryed to log in at all.
So its going to fail becouse of this ?Balancing the classes and such is a long term thin since they are adding a lot more classes is not somethin that it cant be done at release.The battle system is slow , yes , but that has been made that way on porpouse becouse the game is not a face paced RPG but more strategy like game. If you dont like it thats ok. Is made following the FF IP not following the WOW clone IP( i enjoyed a lot wow btw).Same goes with monsters and such.No point to tell anyone they must like it becouse (insert reason here) the game is like it is, not everyone will like it , even if they said they would try to bring new player base , the core will be a FF game after all.
The game will not fail whatever happends , from the company point of view.It will problably fail for a lot of people expecting to see more of the same ,or to people waiting for a perfect game.There will be a lot of subs, and there will be a lot of people having fun playing it.
EDIT:
Also, FFXIV =/= FFXI, its have some similarities, but far to many diferences to make a judgment on FFXIV based on FFXI. Thats just wrong.
Their development process simply highlights they develop to a set taste, and any feedback while acknowled (to a degree) is not a process that heavily involves the playerbase. They take feedback, then don't continue to use the testers for any indepth refinement or much validation that its to their taste. Instead its a bulk push, when a more incremental process would fine tune things to what would ultimately attract more players.
That's why its likely to end up as more of the same, as there's a sence they are developing games for themselves and not (truely) looking to broaden interest in the series. Which is a great shame.
They are very good at stoylines, etc, but when it comes to core mechanics they are years behind the general industry.
Lack of fine tuning is not a reason to not play the game. Only the extreme purists are going to be turned away by the game because of simple issues that may irritate some once or twice but most do not care about, as long as the game is fun to play.
The fact is that They are developing the game and not the playerbase, which is how it should be.
Will be funny when developing to a set taste makes the game a success while the games with "better core mechanics" keep failing like they always do. You really should not bite more than you can chew.
As I said, all indications and especially from E3 is this game is not going to succeed. It for sure will shift a lot of boxes, but until its improved that's it. That truely is a shame, which is the main reason I personnally feel they need to change how they develop things.
Beta testers are usually part of the development process, and are used to refine the game to what they believe will pull in the most people. Likewise the playbase become very improtant in the post-launch releases. Hence why most companies have test servers. By minimising such involvement does not boad well.
I still don't understand how you came to a conclusion that they are minimizing the beta tester involvement. It makes no sense.
SE uses their in-house team to get rid of the bugs- testers need not bother with such issues. But they are purposedly having things open ended so that the testers can provide feedback and determine how they are going to proceed from there-on.
I think that means the testers have much bigger impact in the game than if the core mechanics were already determined before the beta even begun, and testers were used to find out bugs and give little feedback about all the small issues that they found in the gameplay.
Like this, we decide what direction the development of the core mechanics will take. That's a lot of involvement right there, which other betas don't even provide, especially the ones used for simply commercial purposes.
We can't affect the fine tuning which is possible in other betas, but we can affect the core of things which in other betas you Can Not because it has been already decided.
If only that were true, or at least to any depth. Its not how they development games though. As you've said, they do things differently. They do use external testers, but by no means to great depth in the overall process compaired to other companies. In truth it feels like nothing more than a sanity check.
The overall process of fine-tuning, yeah.
In a game like this where things are not like they are in WoW, making sure the core mechanics come as close to the player's wishes as possible is pretty damn important, much more-so than in other games that KNOW that these features are going to be well received, because hey, if WoW did it, it must work.
But aside from that, for saying such things I want to hear what you're basing it on.
That would have to be a dicussion for post launch, due to the nda.
It not an issue of not being like WoW. I'm personnally greatful for that. It is however an issue of making a popular game, which is something they claim they want.
I don't really care if we have to take this to PM since I really want to know, but lol @ NDA, we have already broken it several times. We shouldn't say anything related to it. As long as we don't post pics or videos, they don't care.
If the issue is about being popular, then I hope you remember SE has a great deal of fans with a console that they just have to lure in to their new game like Blizzard lured WC3 and Diablo/SC players to WoW.
They have to make their own playerbase, and not steal it from other games. Which I find pretty good idea. Those players don't care about mouse controls, nor things that would matter to normal MMO player. If the game can be controlled with a pad, then they're good to go.
This game even has cities and open world to top it off!
Well fundimetly, its as you state. The playerbase/beta testers aren't used for refinement. We just have to accept what's given. That's fine to an extent post launch, but during the development cycle it just demonstrates arrogance. They have stated they want FF XIV to be more mass market. To be so they need to change their practices.
Yes, FF is popular and is also the main reason I said it will shift a lot of boxes. However XI didn't do great in the west, due to its design. Have they learned from those mistakes? From what was seen at E3, they haven't.
Actually, to do so they just have to appeal to the FF fanbase which is quite different from the MMO fanbase.
More the merrier of course, but if your normal WoWzer won't like the game does not mean it can't become mainstream in it's own way.
"Flop" in this case is just sooo subjective.
I see some people saying they do not want to use a gamepad to play this game.
Kb & M is more precise, but they are very demanding posture-wise. Ultimately they are not good for you.
I did my best to try to get WoW to work with a gamepad. NOT raiding - but the grinding/leveling/bullshit - hell's yeah. Kick back, relax and go into the world comfortable. Why be hunched over a keyboard and mouse/have to configure yourself in an ergonomic position to handle the stress of a keyboard and mouse?
Kb & Mouse require a relatively stable/flat surface for leverage. A gamespad uses your hands/itself to balance itself. That is good stuff.
Well, it's made for PC and PS3 version comes out later so I can see why they would want to use kb and mouse.
It's interesting why they decided to do it this way- I guess they want to avoid being limited by PS3 hardware in the future unlike with XI. Gives them half a year to polish the game for the PS3 masses too, I guess. Just have to potentially deal with a smaller playerbase for the first half a year- that is if they don't make the kb+mouse combo better. Which they will. Just how much though, is unknown.
I don't think people have been complaining about having game pad controls. More that they develop games around the reliance on them.
Well, goes to show what their real demographic is in the end.
Yet, massive improvements will happen regardless. This topic has kinda lost it's appeal now, but I'll get back to it in few months! For now, ciao.
Seriously, don't kid yourself. That is not the whole picture, or even accurate in parts.
E3 and other demonstrations have highlighted FF XIV does not have quality, other than in its graphics.
Its likely the launch will be painful.
why would oyu make tha tkinda prediction they are stressign there server enough as is. i doubt launch will be that bad
You know that's not true, unless of course you are hearing it second hand.
Wait until they have the full influx at launch. Very few MMOs have a smooth launch. So if FF XIV does suffer, which is likely, its simply down to how quick SE can fix any issues.
your right but i doubt it will be as bad as some of the recent releases