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Where is our freedom in today's MMORPGs?
Interesting
Member UncommonPosts: 973
FREEDOM.
YEAH. FREEDOM.
FREEDOM FOR THE PLAYERS ON ANY POSSIBLE ASPECTS OF DESIGN DECISION.
First and foremost, Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world.
Freedom to no be limited by balance.
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake.
Freedom for making mistakes.
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes.
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes.
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels.
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want.
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy.
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy.
Freedom to customize everything in my game.
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it.
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences.
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics.
Freedom to not be held by the hand.
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script.
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH.
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon.
Freedom of choice.
Any kind of freedom that nowadays games are lacking.
Too much artificial developers design decisions limiting my freedom. It feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal, todays mmorpgs.
We need to start a discussion on the rich subject freedom.
Atleast to enlighten these new players of key structural design elements that got de-evolved over the years. "Press space to beat the game. "
![http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/13.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]](http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/13.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]){kind=link}
Comments
Not many want a lot of those 'freedoms' that you list. However it is out there. Wurm, EVE, ATITD, Beyond Protocol, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates and quite a few other MMOs offer a range of the 'freedoms' that you list. I'm not saying your list os bad or good, just that one man's freedom can often be another man's annoyance.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How can I help people to understand how freedom is... I know... I will make a counter point with the side effects of its opposite, maybe then people will atleast understand there is more to their MMOs then they were led to believe.
I will start asking...
Dumbest MMORPG mechanic ever made?
Balance.
Specially by all its side effects. Linearity, Class, Levels, Tiers, Limitations, Nerfs, Caps, End Game, Instances, Staticness and the list goes on and on on how not to make an MMORPG. Everything is how it is mainly because the notion of balance. I could link most of the posts on this topic to the main root, balance.
When a game is thought with "balance" in mind you have the dozen or so worst possible mechanics agregated, everything has to addapt to it. Its an impossible task.
I remember a time when people simply didnt discussed about balance, the notion of balance didnt existed, things were what they were, games design didnt bent over to it, it wasnt a problem, because in the end the positive effects outweighted the negative effects. Old problems were fixed with old solutions, nowadays those old problems could be fixed with new solutions without having to suffer from the old solutions side effects.
A whole specrum of design decisions are based on the "balance", it is a core structure and everything depends on it because MMORPGs evolved from Everquest Philosophy of MMORPGs design decisions.
I dont expect the "B type of people" to like it, but I still have to enlighten them about it.
Freedom sounds like a nice word and all, but it is really just fluff, it has little content. Without actually know what is meant by all of these freedoms I can only go by what I think they mean. So there is a difference between what is said and what I hear.
Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world. Freedom to gank and grief and break stuff
Freedom to no be limited by balance. Freedom to make a crappy character or an OP cookie cutter build
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake. Freedom to PK and lose maybe
Freedom for making mistakes. Freedom to gimp your character and die
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes. Freedom to have harsh death penalties
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes. Freedom to PK PKers
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels. Freedom of having a skill based system that gives the illusion of meaningful choice
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want. Freedom to use said skill based leveling system
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy. Freedom to have the whole economy ran on player made items with no auction house
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy. Freedom of shallow but random content
Freedom to customize everything in my game. Freedom to make a character that will soon be covered up in generic armor and maybe change some colors of stuff later
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it. Freedom to have a house and hang out there
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences. Freedom to run into a high level area and die
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics. Freedom from having to read about a game
Freedom to not be held by the hand. Freedom from developer made content
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script. Freedom from story, plot or deeper meaning
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH. Freedom of 2d games, really poor graphics, or magic low ping connections
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon. Freedom to aimlessly destroy stuff in the world and ruin other people's fun
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
"maybe then people will atleast understand there is more to their MMOs then they were led to believe"
"I dont expect the "B type of people" to like it, but I still have to enlighten them about it."
You're off to a fine start, Inter. Now add in center justification and about five different sizes and colors of fonts and we can pick up where 2008 left off.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
[Mod Edit]
Balance allows people of all skill levels to have some measure of fair ground. People who complain about "Balance" Are those who even on the classes that are still considered OP, Suck with. Balance is at the core of everything in life. And no expection in Video games. Balance keeps the game equal for everyone, because skill, is not something that be measured into coding.
Casual gaming won.
2005 came and at that point access to more wallets mattered more than giving someone an experience that's difficult.
Diffcult means hard, hard means whining, whining means loud, loud means victory.
Farmville is to Final Fantasy is to Free Hugs.
"We are c34rb34rs, we are m4ny." So on and so forth.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Poster above, thanks for your insightfull repply. I was expecting for it.
Your repply allow me the opportunity to make this point:
MMORPGs were intended to be virtual worlds encompassing multiple aspects of real life. And everything you mentioned fits it perfectly.
And Ive made an metaphore a long time ago... If I remember correctly...
It was about current MMORPGs being designed like the first failed Matrix (the perfectly balanced world).
Remember the movie Matrix?
It was about humans being harvested by machines for energy and kept with their conscience connected to a virtual reality simulation called Matrix.
At a certain point in the movie, one of the antagonists reveals that the machines designed the Matrix in different ways and they even made it so there was no pain, no suffering, no famine, no wars, it was a perfect world and even though the humans started to break out of the immersion as if not accepting such reality.
Then he goes on babling about why the humans were like that and how the actual Matrix ended up being a copy of the real world and the problems with humans waking human severelly dropped, except for Neo and... well thats not the point.
The point is, Im making an analogy to what I consider:
The panoptic model of tight control used in core design decisions to prevent the "human factor" for the sake of balance;
MMORPGs are about the "human factor" causing effect, yet,
The developers have been removing the players ability to cause effect on the game world and others avatars living on it sistematically for years now. Each new game enforces more linearity then its predecessor.
The experience we are offered in todays MMORPGs, in this era of design decisions, is becoming each day more linear and coletive, pointless, without ability to cause effect on the world and others on it.
They are trying to create a world where everyone is a hero, yet, noone is. because they are eliminating the "human factor", People in real life are different, and real life is completelly unbalanced, but in real life we have free will, we cause effect through our individual "human factor", what makes us unique and special.
In MMORPGs they are treating the "human factor", our freedom and choices as if it was a "leak" to the "balance".
People all over the world, every day, for a while now, are expressing their insatisfaction with MMORPGs becoming bland, generic, pointless, offering no freedom to the players, everything being a linear grind threadmill, extreme focus on combat, follow a scripted path type of experience. People are forced to experience the world the way the developer intended them too, step by step, from the first quest/area to the last one, like a industry production line in Chaplins "Modern Times".
Unlike the living breathing world, ever changing, ever evolving, persistant virtual world of the original concept of MMORPGs. Its like we are de-evolving the genre for the sake of this perfectly balanced ilusion, like the first Matrix.
Your ideas of Freedom are very one sided and lack any thought whatsoever. What about freedom to be insulated against individuals who's sole purpose in life is to detract away from the experience of others? You state "it feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal" well everything that you talk about as "freedoms" are criminal enterprises. So, you are being treated precisely in a way that some would say you deserve. You do not want freedoms, you want anarchy.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
How is not holding or holding someone's hand a criminal enterprise?
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
/facepalm
You obviously don't get what he is saying, but his last line should sum it up; "you want anarchy"
This isn't a themepark vs sandbox debate, so don't make it such.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Agreed. There are certain freedoms afforded to the people of a world, real or virtual, by rules and restrictions. A traffic light may prevent the individual's freedom to race through an intersection whenever they like and speed limits prevent an individual from driving at whatever breakneck speeds they like. However these rules and restrictions afford the community as a whole the freedom to travel to and from their destinations in relative safety.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Freedom is a state of mind.
Freedom is NOT getting what you want, when you want it.
Awfully bold statements being made here. Love the Matrix ref though.
Just wanted to pop in and leave my siggy. Check out our upcoming project, X-Shift.
I agree (on some levels). In a world where everyone is special, no one is special. I miss the days of UO. I made my character because I thought he was cool and had fun abilities. Whether or not those abilities were up to par to take on other characters wasn't even a question. Your character was an extension of your imagination, not a sports car.
Balance is an ilusion.
A never ending struggle to achieve something that cannot be achieved, which is comprised of negative side effects to our gaming freedom.
Instant gratification is the jail of todays gaming generation.
That TikiBar image looks familiar. Was this project originally under a different name?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I just realized that the OP lacks "the freedom to cheat/hack".
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Exactly. The main topic is just to spur debate. Nowadays, if Im too abstract I dont get a single repply, that why I had to fill with blatant examples. The whole point is making people think about "freedom". One could not seriously think that all those examples are related to "anarchy", "ganking", "griefing" or its distortions.
Just because some people will use knifes to slit each others throats, doesnt mean we have to ban all the knifes. There are hundreds of social tools that could be used in such situations, just like in real life. But developers took the shortcuts on all the above freedom examples.
Its sad that people dont even take the time to think about it before repplying. They just vomit something and move on, without understand what is being discussed, without learning anything, no thinking at all.
I honestly don't think you even understand the ramifications of the aspects you are asking for.
Re-read what Cactus-Man has to say so I do not need to repeat it. Things are the way they are for a reason.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
This is completelly unrelated to the topic. For you to think this is related with the topic you would have to start presuming that Im talking about something Im not: apology to the deviation of freedom.
And even if I was making an apology to the deviation of freedom in games, the "freedom to cheat/hack" already exists, despite current developers design decisions trying to account for those possibilities as well. Players dont need to ask permission for cheating. This is not the place to discuss that, but... gamerzplanet, elitepvpers, cheatengine.org community members can validate what I just said.
But we are not talking about the real world Neo! We are talking about a made up world where you rescue the princess and save the world, but so do a million others, what you did means nothing, your actions while a couple of NPC's you had a quest to do with will tell you, you are our hero the next time you log in will not even remember you haha.
And while I understand balance as some talk about it, it is a double edged sword, you say it makes it an even playing field. I say it makes it into a community of sameness and nothingness. You as a player can not difference yourself from anyone at all because of this term we call balance, you can not be the hero of the story because everyone else just did the same thing you did. While it is cool to do all that with a guild or what ever there is no true sense of accomplishment cause everyone else is the same, you, me and all the other guild people. You can not show how great you are because everything is the same, every aspect of your job is balance to corespond with that of some one else's job. So in other words the worse player can do the same thing or he should be able to because of balance. With that said there is no incentive to actually try because we are all equal there is balance, what is the point of playing after you reach cap and you get all your purples? At that point you are stuck until the next patch comes out with the same crappy boss fights that you just did.
I will use another analogy just like the OP did in The Incredibles (great movie by the way) the bad guy after he catches Mr. Incredible he explains what he is doing he say's "I invtented weapons that can make everyone super. I am going to sell them to everyone, then everyone will be super, and when everyone is super, then no one will be." In other words I am going to balance it and after that everyone will be the same. I would not want a life in RL or in game where everyone is the same, if you are a better player and you spend you time developing your skills then you should be better than me, there is nothing wrong with that, being better than some one happens in RL and it should happen in the game. If you go and become a rocket scientist and you make a million dollars a year and me with my high school degree make 10k a year, well maybe I should go to school or do somelthing to be a millionair too, I should not expect just because I want a million dollars a year that I should get it.
~but freedom to be a douchebag in-game is a stance the devs must take in order to allow said freedom, much like the freedom to bypass the rules of the game in general. They are not much different at all.
You either have absolute freedom, as you state, or none.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Do you work for a living? Do you? Or are you spoon fed by your Family and lavish in the riches? Or you might even be possibly rich from your own labors. Anyway, your fansy talk and big words amount to nothing in this topic. Most of the MMORPG'ers do not have tons of time to worry about your diatribe and big winded speak about non-equilibrium. We only want to meet good people who share a common intrest in a game we play. We want to kill the bad guys, and mostly, we all want to have fun. But I respect your opinion, and I hope you respect mine as well.
You are naive in thinking that I made that topic without knowing that. Its not like I just parachuted in the MMORPG world now. I know how things were and I know why they got changed and how they got changed. I lived the time when each new announcement developers would come up with the great design decision change to address a particular side effect of excessive freedom.
The thing is how they did it.
We changed from one opposite to another. We lived in Freedom hell, now we live in Balance hell. Lecturing people about UO vs Everquest MMORPG School of Design Decisions evolved would be the next logical step at this point.
Well forgive me if I just see that as you trying to save face. Most people tend to wear their facetiousness on their sleeve.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture