I want the freedom to make my character however I want to and I want everyone else to be able to do the same thing. I want the freedom to go where ever I want regardless of being in a group or being too low a level and I want everyone else to have that same freedom. I don't want the freedom to kill everyone in the game with a few button presses and I don't want anyone else to have that ability either. I do want balance. If someone wants to dual wield swords and be good at magic then they can, but if I'm wielding a sword with two hands I should do more then them with their one handed sword.
I played RF a couple years ago and there were tiems when a single player camped an outpost blocking off a group of five guys 10 levels lower then him. These five guys cried in map chat for someone to go kill this guy so they could grind and no one came. The thing is this one guy 10 levels higher could two shot the entire group with his AOE launcher. To me this didn't show a bad community effort to help out the race but rather bad game mechanics. Ten levels apart with gear that gives a 100% boost meant everything. That one guy had the freedom to stop them from leveling and all five of them together couldn't even touch him...he literally dodged everything. In real life people can progress socially and gain power but everyone grows old and dies, no one is bulletproof. I want these limits in a MMO. I don't want the freedom to have godmode and I don't want anyone else to have it either. What difference is it if you have the freedom to set up a community that supports each other where everyone is against pkers when the pker is god compared to you. Once they reach a certain level they have the freedom to prevent you from reaching that same level.
I'd be happy with the freedom to do more then just fight in an MMO. One of the reasons I like Istaria is because of the crafting. Everything seems to have to do with combat in most MMOs and I would love being able to progress outside of "being better at fighting" And I want this progress to be independant of any social aspects. I want to improve at building and programing things. The intelligence stat should do more then just increase your mp and magic damage. Same with strength and dexterity. Money in games is just to buy better gear and that gear is just used to be better at killing things.
Freedom sounds like a nice word and all, but it is really just fluff, it has little content. Without actually know what is meant by all of these freedoms I can only go by what I think they mean. So there is a difference between what is said and what I hear.
Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world. Freedom to gank and grief and break stuff
Freedom to no be limited by balance. Freedom to make a crappy character or an OP cookie cutter build
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake. Freedom to PK and lose maybe
Freedom for making mistakes. Freedom to gimp your character and die
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes. Freedom to have harsh death penalties
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes. Freedom to PK PKers
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels. Freedom of having a skill based system that gives the illusion of meaningful choice
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want. Freedom to use said skill based leveling system
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy. Freedom to have the whole economy ran on player made items with no auction house
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy. Freedom of shallow but random content
Freedom to customize everything in my game. Freedom to make a character that will soon be covered up in generic armor and maybe change some colors of stuff later
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it. Freedom to have a house and hang out there
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences. Freedom to run into a high level area and die
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics. Freedom from having to read about a game
Freedom to not be held by the hand. Freedom from developer made content
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script. Freedom from story, plot or deeper meaning
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH. Freedom of 2d games, really poor graphics, or magic low ping connections
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon. Freedom to aimlessly destroy stuff in the world and ruin other people's fun
I guess you just dont like freedom. That's OK, most people dont. A lot of them think they do, but, like you, they hate and fear it.
Oh please,
This isn't about freedom, it is an infantile power fantasy. These "freedoms" are for those that do not care about gameplay or fun rather if the game strokes their ego in the way they like it. Its has more to due with the level of pretentiousness of the player than the freedom of the game.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Say there's this NPC who drives a wagon from one town to the next. . I wan't to rob him so I chop down a tree to block the road. . Simple right? . What MMO will give me the freedom to do this? .
Say there's this NPC who drives a wagon from one town to the next.
.
I wan't to rob him so I chop down a tree to block the road.
.
Simple right?
.
What MMO will give me the freedom to do this?
.
None, really, unless you know of an MMO that wants to deal with every jackass and his brother covering the roads with trees.
Lofty philosophical and social babble aside, that scenario simply needs to be examined by its core components - collision detection and the placement of objects in the game world.
From a design standpoint, the issue isn't tech or mechanics. The issue how badly and how often the small number of douchebags in your community will ruin the game for everyone with the tech or mechanic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well the way I see it is, let me have plenty of freedom with my character. Since it's my virtual representation, I want it to be as unique as I am. As far as game play goes, a little structure can go a long way, but the freedom to play the game as you wish without being pushed in one direction or the other is very important too.
Freedom sounds like a nice word and all, but it is really just fluff, it has little content. Without actually know what is meant by all of these freedoms I can only go by what I think they mean. So there is a difference between what is said and what I hear.
Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world. Freedom to gank and grief and break stuff
Freedom to no be limited by balance. Freedom to make a crappy character or an OP cookie cutter build
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake. Freedom to PK and lose maybe
Freedom for making mistakes. Freedom to gimp your character and die
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes. Freedom to have harsh death penalties
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes. Freedom to PK PKers
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels. Freedom of having a skill based system that gives the illusion of meaningful choice
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want. Freedom to use said skill based leveling system
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy. Freedom to have the whole economy ran on player made items with no auction house
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy. Freedom of shallow but random content
Freedom to customize everything in my game. Freedom to make a character that will soon be covered up in generic armor and maybe change some colors of stuff later
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it. Freedom to have a house and hang out there
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences. Freedom to run into a high level area and die
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics. Freedom from having to read about a game
Freedom to not be held by the hand. Freedom from developer made content
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script. Freedom from story, plot or deeper meaning
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH. Freedom of 2d games, really poor graphics, or magic low ping connections
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon. Freedom to aimlessly destroy stuff in the world and ruin other people's fun
I guess you just dont like freedom. That's OK, most people dont. A lot of them think they do, but, like you, they hate and fear it.
Oh please,
This isn't about freedom, it is an infantile power fantasy. These "freedoms" are for those that do not care about gameplay or fun rather if the game strokes their ego in the way they like it. Its has more to due with the level of pretentiousness of the player than the freedom of the game.
I honestly just can't believe he tried to push it that way on you, some of the posters of this site are clearly insane.
"you mast hate freedom!" /wavesflag
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Freedom sounds like a nice word and all, but it is really just fluff, it has little content. Without actually know what is meant by all of these freedoms I can only go by what I think they mean. So there is a difference between what is said and what I hear.
Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world. Freedom to gank and grief and break stuff
Freedom to no be limited by balance. Freedom to make a crappy character or an OP cookie cutter build
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake. Freedom to PK and lose maybe
Freedom for making mistakes. Freedom to gimp your character and die
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes. Freedom to have harsh death penalties
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes. Freedom to PK PKers
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels. Freedom of having a skill based system that gives the illusion of meaningful choice
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want. Freedom to use said skill based leveling system
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy. Freedom to have the whole economy ran on player made items with no auction house
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy. Freedom of shallow but random content
Freedom to customize everything in my game. Freedom to make a character that will soon be covered up in generic armor and maybe change some colors of stuff later
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it. Freedom to have a house and hang out there
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences. Freedom to run into a high level area and die
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics. Freedom from having to read about a game
Freedom to not be held by the hand. Freedom from developer made content
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script. Freedom from story, plot or deeper meaning
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH. Freedom of 2d games, really poor graphics, or magic low ping connections
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon. Freedom to aimlessly destroy stuff in the world and ruin other people's fun
I guess you just dont like freedom. That's OK, most people dont. A lot of them think they do, but, like you, they hate and fear it.
Oh please,
This isn't about freedom, it is an infantile power fantasy. These "freedoms" are for those that do not care about gameplay or fun rather if the game strokes their ego in the way they like it. Its has more to due with the level of pretentiousness of the player than the freedom of the game.
I laughed at just about every one of your "rebuttals" but the one that took the cake was saying that the only way to get 300 people on screen is to have 2D graphics.
That's just sad, that MMOs have fallen so far, that such a simple goal seems like an impossibility to the simple minded like you.
You realize that Dark Age of Camelot, a game from 2001 that had state of the art graphics of its time, regularly had 400+ people on the screen in large battles?
And I didn't know that freedom was something only pretentious people liked. I'm sorry, but wanting to think/struggle a little in a game does not make one pretentious.
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH. Freedom of 2d games, really poor graphics, or magic low ping connections
I laughed at just about every one of your "rebuttals" but the one that took the cake was saying that the only way to get 300 people on screen is to have 2D graphics.
That's just sad, that MMOs have fallen so far, that such a simple goal seems like an impossibility to the simple minded like you.
You realize that Dark Age of Camelot, a game from 2001 that had state of the art graphics of its time, regularly had 400+ people on the screen in large battles?
And I didn't know that freedom was something only pretentious people liked. I'm sorry, but wanting to think/struggle a little in a game does not make one pretentious.
You absolutely disgust me.
I can't believe you would try to argue that, when "state of the art in it's time" is "really poor graphics" now. Every one of his points is sound, and you need to be hit with a rolled-up newspaper for being dense. Try fitting 300 people into a small space within a modern game and see what happens. anyone remembering the event in TR where the server blew up will tell you that it's impossible without the "state of the art graphics" from 1999. Idiot.
This doesn't even take into account how many more actions are logged in modern games, compared to "state of the art 10 years ago" crap. Not only is it a matter of your rig not handling the graphics, it's the server not being able to handle the strain of incoming information, which is 4-8x larger than it used to be, per player.
You should know better. /whap /whap
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
300+ characters on the screen at one time is... not likely. Removing the idea that you would have millions of polys on the screen (in characters alone) (half a million if they're WoW characters), you would also be receiving information about every one of those characters all at once; including Position, Appearance, Name, Animation, Armor, Weapon, etc, etc.
Won't even get into the memory you'd be using on textures and shaders... eek.
300+ characters on the screen at one time is... not likely. Removing the idea that you would have millions of polys on the screen (in characters alone) (half a million if they're WoW characters), you would also be receiving information about every one of those characters all at once; including Position, Appearance, Name, Animation, Armor, Weapon, etc, etc.
Won't even get into the memory you'd be using on textures and shaders... eek.
Your video card would weep. Then commit suicide.
That's not exactly true. There were some huge sieges in Lineage 2 where you could get about that many.
The secret? Low poly avatars and the textures filled in the rest.
One of the largest sieges I had ever attended had easily over that many. Now, "my" computer had issues at the initial rush but after I died and could get to an area where the enemy had to go through choke points it was quite manageable.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
L2 also lacks collision, hitboxes and many other things that are charted by the server itself. Again, it's not just about graphics, because yeah, some super computers can handle that. It's about information logged across the host server, and modern games have far morr going on than L2, which by today's standards - is ancient.
FYI
Graphics bogs down the user, not the host. Information packets (read; actions) bogs down the host, not the user (for the most part).
When the TR server crashed from too many players on at the same time, it was like being frozen in a single moment. Hundreds of people stuck in the middle of their current action for 3-5 minutes at a time, then a spurt of action, then frozen again. All the while *you*, the player, could roam around unbashed and view it all, but interact with nothing. While others seem frozen in time, they are wandering around on their end going "wtf" as well. That is just how it be.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
FREEDOM FOR THE PLAYERS ON ANY POSSIBLE ASPECTS OF DESIGN DECISION.
First and foremost, Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world.
Freedom to no be limited by balance.
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake.
Freedom for making mistakes.
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes.
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes.
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels.
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want.
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy.
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy.
Freedom to customize everything in my game.
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it.
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences.
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics.
Freedom to not be held by the hand.
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script.
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH.
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon.
Freedom of choice.
Any kind of freedom that nowadays games are lacking.
Too much artificial developers design decisions limiting my freedom. It feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal, todays mmorpgs.
We need to start a discussion on the rich subject freedom.
Atleast to enlighten these new players of key structural design elements that got de-evolved over the years. "Press space to beat the game. "
Way too many of those "freedoms" translate to ganking and griefing. In the modern western markets, that automatically niches a game. Given that these games cost millions and millions (of other peoples money), I can't really see them allowing its target audience (and the profits to be made) to be so limited in scope.
Freedom is all well and good in theory. Its reality, combined with human nature, it has so serious draw backs.
FREEDOM FOR THE PLAYERS ON ANY POSSIBLE ASPECTS OF DESIGN DECISION.
First and foremost, Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world.
Freedom to no be limited by balance.
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake.
Freedom for making mistakes.
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes.
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes.
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels.
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want.
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy.
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy.
Freedom to customize everything in my game.
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it.
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences.
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics.
Freedom to not be held by the hand.
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script.
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH.
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon.
Freedom of choice.
Any kind of freedom that nowadays games are lacking.
Too much artificial developers design decisions limiting my freedom. It feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal, todays mmorpgs.
We need to start a discussion on the rich subject freedom.
Atleast to enlighten these new players of key structural design elements that got de-evolved over the years. "Press space to beat the game. "
Your ideas of Freedom are very one sided and lack any thought whatsoever. What about freedom to be insulated against individuals who's sole purpose in life is to detract away from the experience of others? You state "it feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal" well everything that you talk about as "freedoms" are criminal enterprises. So, you are being treated precisely in a way that some would say you deserve. You do not want freedoms, you want anarchy.
You perhaps mean chaos? Anarchy is simply the absence of a coercive state. While chaos can come from anarchy, it doesn't have to. As I mentioned, many of those "freedoms" above translate to ganking and/or griefing. Something that really niches a game in the western markets.
I miss sandbox games, such as PreCU SWG. I feel the OPs pain and frusttration. I don't think total sandbox is the answer. I tried Wurm which is completely sandbox, and it was aimless. But there needs to be a good balance between sandbox and themepark (Sandpark?) where we get freedom but still have a structure to fall back on when we start to feel aimless.
No, he meant anarchy. It's also possible (though not probable) that those elements could exist in a game without ganking or griefing. He wants a lawless system without rules or control, AKA "Anarchy" However, any form of anarchy, real or digital, falls apart when you introduce humans into it.
The trouble with being given 'freedom' is that it doesn't buy you a whole lot. Because freedom is a zero sum game, if you get some, then so does someone else. And very soon, the freedoms bump into each other and don't get any bigger.
So 2x the freedom doesn't equate to being able to do twice as much. Your freedom to move about ends where my face begins. And not only my face, but everyone elses as well.
Now if you want freedom from balance, i think it would be cool if we could work it that all of your characters from here on in are nerfed to hell. You will be free from balance, the rest of us will have our balance. Everyone is happy. Somehow, i don't think you will care for this brand of 'freedom from balance'.
And since i just replied to this on the DCU board, i would love to develope my Superman character. i would love an insta-win (not your cliche insta-win where it takes 5 minutes to win, i mean a true press one button, and get the XP .01 seconds later. But i'm not holding my breath for it. I can't develope the character i want in ANY mmorpg. To be fair, i couldn't (except once) do that in any PnP game either, the GM always has the final word. And that is how it should be.
"PvP'ers need the freedom to PvP people anytime they want and if people don't like it they can just come PvP them back and that's a consequence!"
Hint: people looking for you to do the things you wanted to do in the first place isn't a consequence. This idea of 'freedom' fails, because it gives freedom to one group of players and takes freedom away from everyone else. Think of a park: in this park, there are plenty of things you can do. You can fish in the pond. You can jog or go for a ride on one of the bike trails. You can have a picnic. Play frisbee. Just about anything you want. Then say a bunch of paintballers come in. And they demand that the management of the park let them shoot their paintball guns at anyone in the park, because anything else restricts their freedom. And anyone who doesn't like it is free to pick up their own paintball gun and fight back. How long is it going to be until the only people left are paintballers?
Sorry, but the gang war between the Deadly Death Knights of Doom and the Hardcore Leet Ghetto Killas doesn't really interest me. And that's just about the only kind of 'social structure' that MMO gamers seem to be able to come up with.
I just realized that the OP lacks "the freedom to cheat/hack".
This is completelly unrelated to the topic. For you to think this is related with the topic you would have to start presuming that Im talking about something Im not: apology to the deviation of freedom.
And even if I was making an apology to the deviation of freedom in games, the "freedom to cheat/hack" already exists, despite current developers design decisions trying to account for those possibilities as well. Players dont need to ask permission for cheating. This is not the place to discuss that, but... gamerzplanet, elitepvpers, cheatengine.org community members can validate what I just said.
~but freedom to be a douchebag in-game is a stance the devs must take in order to allow said freedom, much like the freedom to bypass the rules of the game in general. They are not much different at all.
You either have absolute freedom, as you state, or none.
With a little of maieutics you seemed to get the point across.
There is a third option: as we do in real life. We call it social contract. Our actions have consequences. Im not talking about metaphysical/religious consequences such as being struck by thunder if we commit a crime.
Im talking about consequences derived from the community, with social tools made by developers. No, Im not talking about direct, automatic, scripted consequences. Im talking about a fluid natural system where the community organically solve its own problem originated by "misuse of freedom".
At this point you might want to think of referring EVE online, but no, EVE Online still have strong influence of the invisible developer hand on consequences.
The problem is that actions irl have real and serious consequences, that's why order came out of chaos irl ("freedom the mother, not the daughter of order", an old anarchist saying. I'm an anarchist ). In a game, there are no, or negligible consequences to acting like a douche. And that's what a substantial proportion of the population of games like EVE and Darkfall (which have a fair amount of the kind of freedom you're talking about) act like. That's "fun" for them, but not "fun" for most people (they are niche games).
This is analogous to the Greater Internet Dickwad Theory (audience+anonymity=dickwad). To get people to self-police in the same way that people self-police irl, douchebag actions would have to have more serious repercussions.
Another big problem: everything in a game has to be "canned" by the devs as a response to a possible action of a player. The philosopher Daniel Dennett explains the more general point beautifully in one of his books. It's called "combinatorial explosion". Think about being hooked up as a "brain in a vat" - for every imagined movement of yours (e.g. clutching the sand as you lie on the beach) the evil scientist has to have a prepared response (e.g. the "feel" of the sand when the hand clutches this way, or that way, or that way, or that way). Then you have to prepare the ground for any number of possible actions after the victim has imagined they've clutched the sand. But they might not have clutched the sand, they might have done any number of other things, reponses for which also have to be "canned". You have a "tree" of infinite ramifications. Obviously this is impossible in the context of a game developed by people with limited time, energy and resources.
Re. balance: you are completely off the mark here. It's game design 101. The point of balance is to have the numbers on both sides of any encounter match up (usually over some medium term) so that the deciding factor is always player skill. It's impossible to get perfect, and it's an ongoing thing, but the result is game longevity.
I kind of agree with some of what you are saying, in spirit, but I think you don't really understand how difficult a job it is for developers to deliver what you are asking for.
The best that can be given in an MMO is always an illusion of freedom. But different people have different thresholds for being "fooled" by different kinds of illusion. Some people can play theme park MMOs and have a great deal of freedom in role-playing. For them, all they need is sufficient of a graphics illusion and sufficient of a lore to get immersed. They do the rest of the job themselves, with their imagination. (I know this for a fact because I once joined a very hardcore rp guild in AoC, which is a theme-park MMO, but the roleplay I was privileged to join in with was absolutely amazing, totally electrifying, like no other gaming experience I've ever had.)
One way in which the kind of freedom you are talking about could be provided is by having something like GMs. In NWN and NWN2, players can make their own PWs (persistent worlds) and play GM for each other. Again, that's an absolutely amazing gaming experience, to have the game world come alive around you (e.g. imagine a passing NPC suddenly striking up a real conversation with you, and giving you a quest). That works very well. It might be possible to work it out so that players could do it for each other in an MMO. Trouble is, such games aren't really massively multiplayer - but it's something that could develop in the future (e.g. imagine that the devs had a full-time staff of professional GMs who could GM in-game for questing groups on certain special quests, something like that).
But really, fundamentally, your position is a niche position, your want is a niche want. Most people play games to relax, not as a second life.
No, he meant anarchy. It's also possible (though not probable) that those elements could exist in a game without ganking or griefing. He wants a lawless system without rules or control, AKA "Anarchy" However, any form of anarchy, real or digital, falls apart when you introduce humans into it.
Chaos and anarchy are not the same. Be that as it may, I quite agree that with human nature in the mix, that things tend to go down hill rather quickly. But that has also been the theme of just about every authoritarian government that has ever existed. The linkage in the popular mind of the two terms has some obvious benefits to the powers that be. Any way, being one of the accursed CareBears in question, I must say that I've had my fill of games that provide such "freedoms". Obviously, looking at the audience shifts and retention numbers, so have a great number of other players.
L2 also lacks collision, hitboxes and many other things that are charted by the server itself. Again, it's not just about graphics, because yeah, some super computers can handle that. It's about information logged across the host server, and modern games have far morr going on than L2, which by today's standards - is ancient.
Ok, good to know, but still, it's possible to have hundreds of players in one area.
Now, having said that, I like the idea of player collision as long as the pvp supports it as a useful tool.
But I don't think a good pvp game requires it but it's nice, I'll grant you that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
L2 also lacks collision, hitboxes and many other things that are charted by the server itself. Again, it's not just about graphics, because yeah, some super computers can handle that. It's about information logged across the host server, and modern games have far morr going on than L2, which by today's standards - is ancient.
Ok, good to know, but still, it's possible to have hundreds of players in one area.
Now, having said that, I like the idea of player collision as long as the pvp supports it as a useful tool.
But I don't think a good pvp game requires it but it's nice, I'll grant you that.
As long as you understand that any modern game that allows that many people in one spot is going to play like a 10 year old one.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
No, he meant anarchy. It's also possible (though not probable) that those elements could exist in a game without ganking or griefing. He wants a lawless system without rules or control, AKA "Anarchy" However, any form of anarchy, real or digital, falls apart when you introduce humans into it.
Chaos and anarchy are not the same.
Read a thesaurus once in a while. First one in the list, thank you very much.
No, he meant anarchy. It's also possible (though not probable) that those elements could exist in a game without ganking or griefing. He wants a lawless system without rules or control, AKA "Anarchy" However, any form of anarchy, real or digital, falls apart when you introduce humans into it.
Chaos and anarchy are not the same.
Read a thesaurus once in a while. First one in the list, thank you very much.
Well, there is a bit more involved in this matter than a mere thesaurus deals with. As I stated, while one can flow from the other, they are not identical. One of the interesting aspects is how they relate, and how they have been linked in the popular mind. Notice that they both share the same linage? You are most welcome.
In this context, the "freedoms" listed are really one dimensional. They do not take into account others related freedom, nor the collateral consequences.
Yes, chaos stems from ruleless anarchy, but the points at hand create anarchy above all else - chaos is a byproduct, and only if you want to view it that way.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Comments
I want the freedom to make my character however I want to and I want everyone else to be able to do the same thing. I want the freedom to go where ever I want regardless of being in a group or being too low a level and I want everyone else to have that same freedom. I don't want the freedom to kill everyone in the game with a few button presses and I don't want anyone else to have that ability either. I do want balance. If someone wants to dual wield swords and be good at magic then they can, but if I'm wielding a sword with two hands I should do more then them with their one handed sword.
I played RF a couple years ago and there were tiems when a single player camped an outpost blocking off a group of five guys 10 levels lower then him. These five guys cried in map chat for someone to go kill this guy so they could grind and no one came. The thing is this one guy 10 levels higher could two shot the entire group with his AOE launcher. To me this didn't show a bad community effort to help out the race but rather bad game mechanics. Ten levels apart with gear that gives a 100% boost meant everything. That one guy had the freedom to stop them from leveling and all five of them together couldn't even touch him...he literally dodged everything. In real life people can progress socially and gain power but everyone grows old and dies, no one is bulletproof. I want these limits in a MMO. I don't want the freedom to have godmode and I don't want anyone else to have it either. What difference is it if you have the freedom to set up a community that supports each other where everyone is against pkers when the pker is god compared to you. Once they reach a certain level they have the freedom to prevent you from reaching that same level.
I'd be happy with the freedom to do more then just fight in an MMO. One of the reasons I like Istaria is because of the crafting. Everything seems to have to do with combat in most MMOs and I would love being able to progress outside of "being better at fighting" And I want this progress to be independant of any social aspects. I want to improve at building and programing things. The intelligence stat should do more then just increase your mp and magic damage. Same with strength and dexterity. Money in games is just to buy better gear and that gear is just used to be better at killing things.
Make games you want to play.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RavikAztar
Oh please,
This isn't about freedom, it is an infantile power fantasy. These "freedoms" are for those that do not care about gameplay or fun rather if the game strokes their ego in the way they like it. Its has more to due with the level of pretentiousness of the player than the freedom of the game.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Say there's this NPC who drives a wagon from one town to the next.
.
I wan't to rob him so I chop down a tree to block the road.
.
Simple right?
.
What MMO will give me the freedom to do this?
.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
None, really, unless you know of an MMO that wants to deal with every jackass and his brother covering the roads with trees.
Lofty philosophical and social babble aside, that scenario simply needs to be examined by its core components - collision detection and the placement of objects in the game world.
From a design standpoint, the issue isn't tech or mechanics. The issue how badly and how often the small number of douchebags in your community will ruin the game for everyone with the tech or mechanic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well the way I see it is, let me have plenty of freedom with my character. Since it's my virtual representation, I want it to be as unique as I am. As far as game play goes, a little structure can go a long way, but the freedom to play the game as you wish without being pushed in one direction or the other is very important too.
I honestly just can't believe he tried to push it that way on you, some of the posters of this site are clearly insane.
"you mast hate freedom!" /wavesflag
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I laughed at just about every one of your "rebuttals" but the one that took the cake was saying that the only way to get 300 people on screen is to have 2D graphics.
That's just sad, that MMOs have fallen so far, that such a simple goal seems like an impossibility to the simple minded like you.
You realize that Dark Age of Camelot, a game from 2001 that had state of the art graphics of its time, regularly had 400+ people on the screen in large battles?
And I didn't know that freedom was something only pretentious people liked. I'm sorry, but wanting to think/struggle a little in a game does not make one pretentious.
You absolutely disgust me.
I can't believe you would try to argue that, when "state of the art in it's time" is "really poor graphics" now. Every one of his points is sound, and you need to be hit with a rolled-up newspaper for being dense. Try fitting 300 people into a small space within a modern game and see what happens. anyone remembering the event in TR where the server blew up will tell you that it's impossible without the "state of the art graphics" from 1999. Idiot.
This doesn't even take into account how many more actions are logged in modern games, compared to "state of the art 10 years ago" crap. Not only is it a matter of your rig not handling the graphics, it's the server not being able to handle the strain of incoming information, which is 4-8x larger than it used to be, per player.
You should know better. /whap /whap
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
300+ characters on the screen at one time is... not likely. Removing the idea that you would have millions of polys on the screen (in characters alone) (half a million if they're WoW characters), you would also be receiving information about every one of those characters all at once; including Position, Appearance, Name, Animation, Armor, Weapon, etc, etc.
Won't even get into the memory you'd be using on textures and shaders... eek.
Your video card would weep. Then commit suicide.
That's not exactly true. There were some huge sieges in Lineage 2 where you could get about that many.
The secret? Low poly avatars and the textures filled in the rest.
One of the largest sieges I had ever attended had easily over that many. Now, "my" computer had issues at the initial rush but after I died and could get to an area where the enemy had to go through choke points it was quite manageable.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
L2 also lacks collision, hitboxes and many other things that are charted by the server itself. Again, it's not just about graphics, because yeah, some super computers can handle that. It's about information logged across the host server, and modern games have far morr going on than L2, which by today's standards - is ancient.
FYI
Graphics bogs down the user, not the host. Information packets (read; actions) bogs down the host, not the user (for the most part).
When the TR server crashed from too many players on at the same time, it was like being frozen in a single moment. Hundreds of people stuck in the middle of their current action for 3-5 minutes at a time, then a spurt of action, then frozen again. All the while *you*, the player, could roam around unbashed and view it all, but interact with nothing. While others seem frozen in time, they are wandering around on their end going "wtf" as well. That is just how it be.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Way too many of those "freedoms" translate to ganking and griefing. In the modern western markets, that automatically niches a game. Given that these games cost millions and millions (of other peoples money), I can't really see them allowing its target audience (and the profits to be made) to be so limited in scope.
Freedom is all well and good in theory. Its reality, combined with human nature, it has so serious draw backs.
You perhaps mean chaos? Anarchy is simply the absence of a coercive state. While chaos can come from anarchy, it doesn't have to. As I mentioned, many of those "freedoms" above translate to ganking and/or griefing. Something that really niches a game in the western markets.
I miss sandbox games, such as PreCU SWG. I feel the OPs pain and frusttration. I don't think total sandbox is the answer. I tried Wurm which is completely sandbox, and it was aimless. But there needs to be a good balance between sandbox and themepark (Sandpark?) where we get freedom but still have a structure to fall back on when we start to feel aimless.
No, he meant anarchy. It's also possible (though not probable) that those elements could exist in a game without ganking or griefing. He wants a lawless system without rules or control, AKA "Anarchy" However, any form of anarchy, real or digital, falls apart when you introduce humans into it.
The trouble with being given 'freedom' is that it doesn't buy you a whole lot. Because freedom is a zero sum game, if you get some, then so does someone else. And very soon, the freedoms bump into each other and don't get any bigger.
So 2x the freedom doesn't equate to being able to do twice as much. Your freedom to move about ends where my face begins. And not only my face, but everyone elses as well.
Now if you want freedom from balance, i think it would be cool if we could work it that all of your characters from here on in are nerfed to hell. You will be free from balance, the rest of us will have our balance. Everyone is happy. Somehow, i don't think you will care for this brand of 'freedom from balance'.
And since i just replied to this on the DCU board, i would love to develope my Superman character. i would love an insta-win (not your cliche insta-win where it takes 5 minutes to win, i mean a true press one button, and get the XP .01 seconds later. But i'm not holding my breath for it. I can't develope the character i want in ANY mmorpg. To be fair, i couldn't (except once) do that in any PnP game either, the GM always has the final word. And that is how it should be.
I LOL everytime I see one of these threads:
"PvP'ers need the freedom to PvP people anytime they want and if people don't like it they can just come PvP them back and that's a consequence!"
Hint: people looking for you to do the things you wanted to do in the first place isn't a consequence. This idea of 'freedom' fails, because it gives freedom to one group of players and takes freedom away from everyone else. Think of a park: in this park, there are plenty of things you can do. You can fish in the pond. You can jog or go for a ride on one of the bike trails. You can have a picnic. Play frisbee. Just about anything you want. Then say a bunch of paintballers come in. And they demand that the management of the park let them shoot their paintball guns at anyone in the park, because anything else restricts their freedom. And anyone who doesn't like it is free to pick up their own paintball gun and fight back. How long is it going to be until the only people left are paintballers?
Sorry, but the gang war between the Deadly Death Knights of Doom and the Hardcore Leet Ghetto Killas doesn't really interest me. And that's just about the only kind of 'social structure' that MMO gamers seem to be able to come up with.
I love metaphors that work well, thank you.
Giving one group the freedom to ruin another's experience is giving the latter group the freedom to "deal with it or GTFO".
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The problem is that actions irl have real and serious consequences, that's why order came out of chaos irl ("freedom the mother, not the daughter of order", an old anarchist saying. I'm an anarchist
). In a game, there are no, or negligible consequences to acting like a douche. And that's what a substantial proportion of the population of games like EVE and Darkfall (which have a fair amount of the kind of freedom you're talking about) act like. That's "fun" for them, but not "fun" for most people (they are niche games).
This is analogous to the Greater Internet Dickwad Theory (audience+anonymity=dickwad). To get people to self-police in the same way that people self-police irl, douchebag actions would have to have more serious repercussions.
Another big problem: everything in a game has to be "canned" by the devs as a response to a possible action of a player. The philosopher Daniel Dennett explains the more general point beautifully in one of his books. It's called "combinatorial explosion". Think about being hooked up as a "brain in a vat" - for every imagined movement of yours (e.g. clutching the sand as you lie on the beach) the evil scientist has to have a prepared response (e.g. the "feel" of the sand when the hand clutches this way, or that way, or that way, or that way). Then you have to prepare the ground for any number of possible actions after the victim has imagined they've clutched the sand. But they might not have clutched the sand, they might have done any number of other things, reponses for which also have to be "canned". You have a "tree" of infinite ramifications. Obviously this is impossible in the context of a game developed by people with limited time, energy and resources.
Re. balance: you are completely off the mark here. It's game design 101. The point of balance is to have the numbers on both sides of any encounter match up (usually over some medium term) so that the deciding factor is always player skill. It's impossible to get perfect, and it's an ongoing thing, but the result is game longevity.
I kind of agree with some of what you are saying, in spirit, but I think you don't really understand how difficult a job it is for developers to deliver what you are asking for.
The best that can be given in an MMO is always an illusion of freedom. But different people have different thresholds for being "fooled" by different kinds of illusion. Some people can play theme park MMOs and have a great deal of freedom in role-playing. For them, all they need is sufficient of a graphics illusion and sufficient of a lore to get immersed. They do the rest of the job themselves, with their imagination. (I know this for a fact because I once joined a very hardcore rp guild in AoC, which is a theme-park MMO, but the roleplay I was privileged to join in with was absolutely amazing, totally electrifying, like no other gaming experience I've ever had.)
One way in which the kind of freedom you are talking about could be provided is by having something like GMs. In NWN and NWN2, players can make their own PWs (persistent worlds) and play GM for each other. Again, that's an absolutely amazing gaming experience, to have the game world come alive around you (e.g. imagine a passing NPC suddenly striking up a real conversation with you, and giving you a quest). That works very well. It might be possible to work it out so that players could do it for each other in an MMO. Trouble is, such games aren't really massively multiplayer - but it's something that could develop in the future (e.g. imagine that the devs had a full-time staff of professional GMs who could GM in-game for questing groups on certain special quests, something like that).
But really, fundamentally, your position is a niche position, your want is a niche want. Most people play games to relax, not as a second life.
Chaos and anarchy are not the same. Be that as it may, I quite agree that with human nature in the mix, that things tend to go down hill rather quickly. But that has also been the theme of just about every authoritarian government that has ever existed. The linkage in the popular mind of the two terms has some obvious benefits to the powers that be. Any way, being one of the accursed CareBears in question, I must say that I've had my fill of games that provide such "freedoms". Obviously, looking at the audience shifts and retention numbers, so have a great number of other players.
Ok, good to know, but still, it's possible to have hundreds of players in one area.
Now, having said that, I like the idea of player collision as long as the pvp supports it as a useful tool.
But I don't think a good pvp game requires it but it's nice, I'll grant you that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As long as you understand that any modern game that allows that many people in one spot is going to play like a 10 year old one.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Read a thesaurus once in a while. First one in the list, thank you very much.
http://thesaurus.com/browse/chaos
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Well, there is a bit more involved in this matter than a mere thesaurus deals with. As I stated, while one can flow from the other, they are not identical. One of the interesting aspects is how they relate, and how they have been linked in the popular mind. Notice that they both share the same linage? You are most welcome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
Chaos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos
In this context, the "freedoms" listed are really one dimensional. They do not take into account others related freedom, nor the collateral consequences.
Yes, chaos stems from ruleless anarchy, but the points at hand create anarchy above all else - chaos is a byproduct, and only if you want to view it that way.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture