I just realized that the OP lacks "the freedom to cheat/hack".
This is completelly unrelated to the topic. For you to think this is related with the topic you would have to start presuming that Im talking about something Im not: apology to the deviation of freedom.
And even if I was making an apology to the deviation of freedom in games, the "freedom to cheat/hack" already exists, despite current developers design decisions trying to account for those possibilities as well. Players dont need to ask permission for cheating. This is not the place to discuss that, but... gamerzplanet, elitepvpers, cheatengine.org community members can validate what I just said.
~but freedom to be a douchebag in-game is a stance the devs must take in order to allow said freedom, much like the freedom to bypass the rules of the game in general. They are not much different at all.
You either have absolute freedom, as you state, or none.
With a little of maieutics you seemed to get the point across.
There is a third option: as we do in real life. We call it social contract. Our actions have consequences. Im not talking about metaphysical/religious consequences such as being struck by thunder if we commit a crime.
Im talking about consequences derived from the community, with social tools made by developers. No, Im not talking about direct, automatic, scripted consequences. Im talking about a fluid natural system where the community organically solve its own problem originated by "misuse of freedom".
At this point you might want to think of referring EVE online, but no, EVE Online still have strong influence of the invisible developer hand on consequences.
Do you work for a living? Do you? Or are you spoon fed by your Family and lavish in the riches? Or you might even be possibly rich from your own labors. Anyway, your fansy talk and big words amount to nothing in this topic. Most of the MMORPG'ers do not have tons of time to worry about your diatribe and big winded speak about non-equilibrium. We only want to meet good people who share a common intrest in a game we play. We want to kill the bad guys, and mostly, we all want to have fun. But I respect your opinion, and I hope you respect mine as well.
What is at stake is this topic is the quality of our MMO's. I start from the principle that our todays MMO's are getting worse and worse and the freedom (its absence) , subject of this topic, is deep related to it. That is all, I respect your oppinion.
I just realized that the OP lacks "the freedom to cheat/hack".
This is completelly unrelated to the topic. For you to think this is related with the topic you would have to start presuming that Im talking about something Im not: apology to the deviation of freedom.
And even if I was making an apology to the deviation of freedom in games, the "freedom to cheat/hack" already exists, despite current developers design decisions trying to account for those possibilities as well. Players dont need to ask permission for cheating. This is not the place to discuss that, but... gamerzplanet, elitepvpers, cheatengine.org community members can validate what I just said.
~but freedom to be a douchebag in-game is a stance the devs must take in order to allow said freedom, much like the freedom to bypass the rules of the game in general. They are not much different at all.
You either have absolute freedom, as you state, or none.
With a little of maieutics you seemed to get the point across.
There is a third option: as we do in real life. We call it social contract. Our actions have consequences. Im not talking about metaphysical/religious consequences such as being struck by thunder if we commit a crime.
Im talking about consequences derived from the community, with social tools made by developers. No, Im not talking about direct, automatic, scripted consequences. Im talking about a fluid natural system where the community organically solve its own problem originated by "misuse of freedom".
At this point you might want to think of referring EVE online, but no, EVE Online still have strong influence of the invisible developer hand on consequences.
I'm rather suprised you'd be willing to place punishment and control in the hands of players. These are human beings with little in incentive to do the "right" thing. I'd assume that the system in your mind also has extreme repercussions for the community when it abuses its power?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Your ideas of Freedom are very one sided and lack any thought whatsoever. What about freedom to be insulated against individuals who's sole purpose in life is to detract away from the experience of others? You state "it feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal" well everything that you talk about as "freedoms" are criminal enterprises. So, you are being treated precisely in a way that some would say you deserve. You do not want freedoms, you want anarchy.
How is not holding or holding someone's hand a criminal enterprise?
/facepalm
You obviously don't get what he is saying, but his last line should sum it up; "you want anarchy"
This isn't a themepark vs sandbox debate, so don't make it such.
I'm pointing out the use of hyperbole to once again exaggerate any sort of truth.
"I want to loot player's bodies in pvp."
"OHMUHGWAWDD! You wants ta borth the spwnz of satan himself!!!"
There's a lot of truth to his post as well. Worrying about making sure the rogues and pallies do the same amount of damage in different ways all in the name of balance really makes most choice in MMOs aesthetic (thus meaningless); rather than allowing players to find a niche to learn to play well.
The reason there's no freedom in MMOs is because everyone wants to be the hero. The massive part of the MMORPG is just to allow other players to see the phat loot they mindlessly grinding away at lackluster AI to win.
The casual gamers above are (a) prime example that being loud gets things done.
[Mod Edit]
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Awfully bold statements being made here. Love the Matrix ref though.
Just wanted to pop in and leave my siggy. Check out our upcoming project, X-Shift.
I agree (on some levels). In a world where everyone is special, no one is special. I miss the days of UO. I made my character because I thought he was cool and had fun abilities. Whether or not those abilities were up to par to take on other characters wasn't even a question. Your character was an extension of your imagination, not a sports car.
It definitely sounds interesting. I'll give it a try when it eventually comes out. I hope everything works out in the end, good luck with it.
Your repply allow me the opportunity to make this point: MMORPGs were intended to be virtual worlds encompassing multiple aspects of real life.
Some may have intended that but obviously not all. You want freedom? Why not think freely and not get hung up on what a few people told you was their reason to make their games.
BTW, All commercial mmorpgs have been made to make money.
I just realized that the OP lacks "the freedom to cheat/hack".
This is completelly unrelated to the topic. For you to think this is related with the topic you would have to start presuming that Im talking about something Im not: apology to the deviation of freedom.
And even if I was making an apology to the deviation of freedom in games, the "freedom to cheat/hack" already exists, despite current developers design decisions trying to account for those possibilities as well. Players dont need to ask permission for cheating. This is not the place to discuss that, but... gamerzplanet, elitepvpers, cheatengine.org community members can validate what I just said.
~but freedom to be a douchebag in-game is a stance the devs must take in order to allow said freedom, much like the freedom to bypass the rules of the game in general. They are not much different at all.
You either have absolute freedom, as you state, or none.
With a little of maieutics you seemed to get the point across.
There is a third option: as we do in real life. We call it social contract. Our actions have consequences. Im not talking about metaphysical/religious consequences such as being struck by thunder if we commit a crime.
Im talking about consequences derived from the community, with social tools made by developers. No, Im not talking about direct, automatic, scripted consequences. Im talking about a fluid natural system where the community organically solve its own problem originated by "misuse of freedom".
At this point you might want to think of referring EVE online, but no, EVE Online still have strong influence of the invisible developer hand on consequences.
I'm rather suprised you'd be willing to place punishment and control in the hands of players. These are human beings with little in incentive to do the "right" thing. I'd assume that the system in your mind also has extreme repercussions for the community when it abuses its power?
By not having an automatic repercussion by design, a player driven system would certainly be more forgiving, as the repercussion would derive from social interactions organized, structured and executed by players. Off course, but for that, social tools are needed.
Not to say that players couldnt hire npcs to protect their cities. But said npcs wouldnt teleport instantly to the criminal as soon as someone typed /guards! (Ultima Online reference).
The same way that those guards wouldnt be imortal, or instant attack players and kill them. This is a harsh example. Such a "law" system has been tried on certain games where the players can play the "cop", or can be "chased" by the cop. Off course everything would take into consideration the setting. Even the rules will have to be created (chosen) by the structured community of specific areas where it will be enforced. Some people will enforce it. Some people will want to play politic, some people will want to play "justice", some people will want to just do their thing on their own, and some people will be "criminals".
No automatic god sent thunders on the criminals head. But still, once caught, he would be subject to whatever rules the especific society, within the social tools available, decided for the criminals fate.
This way you have freedom and consequence, without the deviation of automatic consequence. Everything organic, player based, sometimes there will be justice, sometimes there wont, thats the beauty of it.
Some crimes would get unpunished and undiscovered.
A player driven system accounts for human imperfection, for human complexity and interaction.
How about freedom for carebear to take gankers and murderer to prison for 50 years like that in real life.
Sometimes your freedom is affecting other people's freedom.
Thats the idea. You get a recluse town going on in a remote area of the game world where the consequences are ridiculously harsh and rules are unforgiving.
But then, you probably would have people trying to change it. Some people would try to fight it. Some people would just avoid it.
With the tools in the hands of the players, people will have to constantly addapt, their own rules/structures. It will go beyond guild drama. You add social power, influence, politics.
You get a real society going on. Some people will organize a big town with very familiar rules and lots of people wanting to enforce those rules and after a while such town will be known as a very secure place to live.
This all well and nice Inter but what you ask would make people actually use the 2 cells left in there brain for it to work. Most people even in RL have to have some one telling them what to do, they do not care to think for themselves or anything, they dont mind being mindless drones. But then again you would have some people that would actually do as you say, the thinkers those that can see how they can improve the place they settle in, the town or whatever. I dont know I do not think it would work out, like I said people are lazy for the most part, you give them too much to think on and they will just give up. If people find things too hard they wont do it, they want stuff handed to them cause they feel entitled to have stuff.
This all well and nice Inter but what you ask would make people actually use the 2 cells left in there brain for it to work. Most people even in RL have to have some one telling them what to do, they do not care to think for themselves or anything, they dont mind being mindless drones. But then again you would have some people that would actually do as you say, the thinkers those that can see how they can improve the place they settle in, the town or whatever. I dont know I do not think it would work out, like I said people are lazy for the most part, you give them too much to think on and they will just give up. If people find things too hard they wont do it, they want stuff handed to them cause they feel entitled to have stuff.
Just like real life. Not many people care about justice or politics, they let those things to the people who do.
Such roles would be available to those who get interested by those aspects, while others wouldnt be forced to direct the show, they would still live under the rules created by those who do. Same way as in real life.
This is a social aspect of the game. The core gameplay content itself can be completelly different, like a Mount and Blade third person medieval fighting game where most people just want to kill stuff, get rich, drink beer... this doesnt mutually excludes the possibility of others still playing "society". We could still have the same old "be a hero, save the world, but first go fetch me 3 rat tails" content and gameplay.
What Im talking is offering people freedom, while giving them the tools to comply/addapt to whatever situation happens due to freedom. Instead of locking everyone.
FREEDOM FOR THE PLAYERS ON ANY POSSIBLE ASPECTS OF DESIGN DECISION.
First and foremost, Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world.
How so? The ability to kill other players on your whim is not "freedom"
Freedom to no be limited by balance.
'Balance" is a techical issue and generally speaking if one skill set or class is "unbalance" (too weak or too strong) everyone either plays it or avoids it thereby eliminating "freedom" of diversity and choice. It makes zero sense to place this in an arguement for freedom. What you are basically saying is leave over and under powered aspects of the character. That's just not logical when agruing for freedom of choice because that inherently eliminates it...
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake.
So open PvP...which is your first point basically
Freedom for making mistakes.
For example? As far as I know, you can make a mistake in any MMO.
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes.
How is that a freedom? "Accountable" implies a penalty which restricts freedom. Are you arguing for PvP consequence or death penalties or what?
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes.
Open PvP....as your first point.
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels.
Your tripping over your first statements. How can you do this if you endorse unbalance in mechanics design?
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want.
Structurally speaking....how so? You have to have some sort of structure. This also seems to trip right into the last "freedom" above this. essentually you are saying the same thing.
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy.
You can crash or inflate any game economy it just a matter of how much effort you are willing to put into it.
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy.
And how praytell, will a game work exactly? Are you asking for basically the random chance of a new player to get the best item in the game by killing the weakest opponate?
Freedom to customize everything in my game.
Again, you are confusing "freedom" with technological limitations.
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it.
How is this a freedom? What you are asking for is account ownership and that is a business issue. You don't "own" anything in an MMO, you pay for access to the server, the game / IP belongs to the company. To add this into a list of gameplay freedoms is illogical.
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences.
You do repeat yourself a lot. Many games allow that. Many games you die if you are not strong enough.
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics.
Then how would you know if your demands for "freedom" are being met?
Freedom to not be held by the hand.
Howso?
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script.
This is probably the only valid point.
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH.
Technological limitations do not equate to freedom. I'm sure if ou wait long enough, technology will catch up to your expectation.
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon.
Why do you bleed the same points into so many differect points. What you are asking here is freedom of choice which is your next point. or a non linear script which was your past point.
Freedom of choice.
Howso? Like the above point?
Any kind of freedom that nowadays games are lacking.
Like what? So far all I have seen is you want an open PvP world with no technological limitations and that has no structure whatso ever. It needs to be balanced and yet unbalanced.
Too much artificial developers design decisions limiting my freedom. It feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal, todays mmorpgs.
To say this post is vague and undefined is an understatment.
We need to start a discussion on the rich subject freedom.
Atleast to enlighten these new players of key structural design elements that got de-evolved over the years. "Press space to beat the game. "
To the OP, I have everything you want: go to Asheron's Call Darktide server.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon.
^^^^^^ You have won my heart
Ok, I'm not clear whether you aren't understanding what others have already said or are simply a troll, but I'll restate it.
Your "freedoms" boil down to 2 issues.
1. Technical. You want the freedom to have any outcome you can imagine with the princess and the dragon. Fine, but in the real world writing, animating and coding each seperate outcome takes time and money. Now say a company has 1,000 hours of labor to create a game. Each outcome to a scenario takes 1 hour to make. They can either make a game with 2 scenarios, each with 500 possible outcomes, or one with 200 scenarios, each with 5 possible outcomes. You may buy the 2 scene game, but 300,000 folks will buy the 200 scene game. People want content. It should be obvious which one the company will make. (yes, it's the 200 scene game)
2. You want the "freedom" to be a jerk in PvP. Let's keep our hypothetical 300,000 person player base. Now that's dandy, if your at the top of the pecking order. You personally may even be ok with others beating you down and taking your stuff on a regular basis. So that will be enjoyable for folks like you and the few individuals/groups at the top, but the other 299,000 are going to go play something else. Is PvP bad? Absolutely not. But PvP is not now, nor has it ever been more then a niche market in MMO's. That's not a judgement, it's simple numbers. Besides, folks who want this type of "freedom" already have a game: Halo and it's bretheren.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Good points OP I fully agree. Don't bother arguing with 2005 carebears, most of them believe they know the genre in fact they know nothing about it. 2005 polluted, destroyed our genre with sooo much crybabies its not even funny anymore. I couldn't care less if a game is balanced or not freedom > balance (there will never ever be 100% balance so why try).
MMORPGs transformed from games for gamers into TV like entertainment for braindead TV junkies.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Bob wants to be free to do whatever Bob likes in game, right up until Jack does whatever Jack wants and hurts Bob. Then Bob want rules and order to limit Jack's freedom. Bob still wants to be free.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
FREEDOM FOR THE PLAYERS ON ANY POSSIBLE ASPECTS OF DESIGN DECISION.
First and foremost, Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world.
How so? The ability to kill other players on your whim is not "freedom"
Freedom to no be limited by balance.
'Balance" is a techical issue and generally speaking if one skill set or class is "unbalance" (too weak or too strong) everyone either plays it or avoids it thereby eliminating "freedom" of diversity and choice. It makes zero sense to place this in an arguement for freedom. What you are basically saying is leave over and under powered aspects of the character. That's just not logical when agruing for freedom of choice because that inherently eliminates it...
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake.
So open PvP...which is your first point basically
Freedom for making mistakes.
For example? As far as I know, you can make a mistake in any MMO.
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes.
How is that a freedom? "Accountable" implies a penalty which restricts freedom. Are you arguing for PvP consequence or death penalties or what?
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes.
Open PvP....as your first point.
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels.
Your tripping over your first statements. How can you do this if you endorse unbalance in mechanics design?
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want.
Structurally speaking....how so? You have to have some sort of structure. This also seems to trip right into the last "freedom" above this. essentually you are saying the same thing.
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy.
You can crash or inflate any game economy it just a matter of how much effort you are willing to put into it.
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy.
And how praytell, will a game work exactly? Are you asking for basically the random chance of a new player to get the best item in the game by killing the weakest opponate?
Freedom to customize everything in my game.
Again, you are confusing "freedom" with technological limitations.
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it.
How is this a freedom? What you are asking for is account ownership and that is a business issue. You don't "own" anything in an MMO, you pay for access to the server, the game / IP belongs to the company. To add this into a list of gameplay freedoms is illogical.
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences.
You do repeat yourself a lot. Many games allow that. Many games you die if you are not strong enough.
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics.
Then how would you know if your demands for "freedom" are being met?
Freedom to not be held by the hand.
Howso?
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script.
This is probably the only valid point.
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH.
Technological limitations do not equate to freedom. I'm sure if ou wait long enough, technology will catch up to your expectation.
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon.
Why do you bleed the same points into so many differect points. What you are asking here is freedom of choice which is your next point. or a non linear script which was your past point.
Freedom of choice.
Howso? Like the above point?
Any kind of freedom that nowadays games are lacking.
Like what? So far all I have seen is you want an open PvP world with no technological limitations and that has no structure whatso ever. It needs to be balanced and yet unbalanced.
Too much artificial developers design decisions limiting my freedom. It feels like being in a prison, being treated like a criminal, todays mmorpgs.
To say this post is vague and undefined is an understatment.
We need to start a discussion on the rich subject freedom.
Atleast to enlighten these new players of key structural design elements that got de-evolved over the years. "Press space to beat the game. "
I'm with this guy.
Fortunately MMORPG.COM gives the OP freedom to rant.
Freedom sounds like a nice word and all, but it is really just fluff, it has little content. Without actually know what is meant by all of these freedoms I can only go by what I think they mean. So there is a difference between what is said and what I hear.
Freedom to cause effects over others and over the game world. Freedom to gank and grief and break stuff
Freedom to no be limited by balance. Freedom to make a crappy character or an OP cookie cutter build
Freedom to engage others in combat, even if its a mistake. Freedom to PK and lose maybe
Freedom for making mistakes. Freedom to gimp your character and die
Freedom for being held accountable for said mistakes. Freedom to have harsh death penalties
Freedom to seek justice on whoever is accountable for mistakes. Freedom to PK PKers
Freedom for making whatever type of character they can think of without any boundaries of classes/levels. Freedom of having a skill based system that gives the illusion of meaningful choice
Freedom to evolve my character in any way I want. Freedom to use said skill based leveling system
Freedom to crash or inflate the game economy. Freedom to have the whole economy ran on player made items with no auction house
Freedom to let random numbers generators go crazy. Freedom of shallow but random content
Freedom to customize everything in my game. Freedom to make a character that will soon be covered up in generic armor and maybe change some colors of stuff later
Freedom to to own anything on my account and do whatever I want with it. Freedom to have a house and hang out there
Freedom to go/do wherever I want too and feel the consequences. Freedom to run into a high level area and die
Freedom to not understand the game mechanics. Freedom from having to read about a game
Freedom to not be held by the hand. Freedom from developer made content
Freedom to not be forced to follow any kind of linear script. Freedom from story, plot or deeper meaning
Freedom to assembly three hundred players in the same screen. YEAH. Freedom of 2d games, really poor graphics, or magic low ping connections
Freedom to not be forced to save the princess or slay the dragon, but rape the princess and marry the dragon. Freedom to aimlessly destroy stuff in the world and ruin other people's fun
I guess you just dont like freedom. That's OK, most people dont. A lot of them think they do, but, like you, they hate and fear it.
The kind of freedom the OP is requesting is impossible in a video gave that requires any form of AI. Period.
The kind of freedom you speak of is only available in the game called "Real Life", where absolutely anything can be done, so long as it it adheres to the laws of physics.
In a video game, you can only do what has been programmed into it. You simply cannot possible program all possible actions for any situation. It would require an infinite about of Art, animation, boolean ops,
Example, i walk up to a guard and " fill in the blank"
anything that gets added here is more programming, art, animation, testing. We could literally fill an entire thread with this one example alone and all of the resulting work it would yield.
Ignore what you saw in the Matrix, we have not yet learned to mimic real life in a virtual one.
Recommendation: Go back to playing D&D, where a collection of nerds can invent a game that literally has no limited beyond the collective imagination of the group assembled.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
I'm assuming the "freedom" everyone's talking about here is the "survival of the fittest" scenario. That is fine and dandy in a combat-centric game. A game that revolves around being the "fittest". The fact is, though, there are far better games for that than an MMO. For example, go check out MAG (256 player FPS). It's good fun. Though I suspect griefers don't actually like playing on a level playing field.
Anyway. On the subject of PvP; I actually think its crucial to most MMOs. Yes, even for the RP peeps. Say your guild is having a meeting, and an enemy shows up. With no PvP, you do what? Ask him to leave? Making threatening emotes at him?
So, while I'm all for open PvP, multiple methods for accomplishing goals, and sandbox gameplay, there also has to be some type of setting and game in there somewhere. If that's not for you, don't play an MMO.
Comments
With a little of maieutics you seemed to get the point across.
There is a third option: as we do in real life. We call it social contract. Our actions have consequences. Im not talking about metaphysical/religious consequences such as being struck by thunder if we commit a crime.
Im talking about consequences derived from the community, with social tools made by developers. No, Im not talking about direct, automatic, scripted consequences. Im talking about a fluid natural system where the community organically solve its own problem originated by "misuse of freedom".
At this point you might want to think of referring EVE online, but no, EVE Online still have strong influence of the invisible developer hand on consequences.
No.
You can check my previous posts to understand the kind of person I am and how I communicate my ideas.
What is at stake is this topic is the quality of our MMO's. I start from the principle that our todays MMO's are getting worse and worse and the freedom (its absence) , subject of this topic, is deep related to it. That is all, I respect your oppinion.
I'm rather suprised you'd be willing to place punishment and control in the hands of players. These are human beings with little in incentive to do the "right" thing. I'd assume that the system in your mind also has extreme repercussions for the community when it abuses its power?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I'm pointing out the use of hyperbole to once again exaggerate any sort of truth.
"I want to loot player's bodies in pvp."
"OHMUHGWAWDD! You wants ta borth the spwnz of satan himself!!!"
There's a lot of truth to his post as well. Worrying about making sure the rogues and pallies do the same amount of damage in different ways all in the name of balance really makes most choice in MMOs aesthetic (thus meaningless); rather than allowing players to find a niche to learn to play well.
The reason there's no freedom in MMOs is because everyone wants to be the hero. The massive part of the MMORPG is just to allow other players to see the phat loot they mindlessly grinding away at lackluster AI to win.
The casual gamers above are (a) prime example that being loud gets things done.
[Mod Edit]
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
It definitely sounds interesting. I'll give it a try when it eventually comes out. I hope everything works out in the end, good luck with it.
How about freedom for carebear to take gankers and murderer to prison for 50 years like that in real life.
Sometimes your freedom is affecting other people's freedom.
BTW, All commercial mmorpgs have been made to make money.
By not having an automatic repercussion by design, a player driven system would certainly be more forgiving, as the repercussion would derive from social interactions organized, structured and executed by players. Off course, but for that, social tools are needed.
Not to say that players couldnt hire npcs to protect their cities. But said npcs wouldnt teleport instantly to the criminal as soon as someone typed /guards! (Ultima Online reference).
The same way that those guards wouldnt be imortal, or instant attack players and kill them. This is a harsh example. Such a "law" system has been tried on certain games where the players can play the "cop", or can be "chased" by the cop. Off course everything would take into consideration the setting. Even the rules will have to be created (chosen) by the structured community of specific areas where it will be enforced. Some people will enforce it. Some people will want to play politic, some people will want to play "justice", some people will want to just do their thing on their own, and some people will be "criminals".
No automatic god sent thunders on the criminals head. But still, once caught, he would be subject to whatever rules the especific society, within the social tools available, decided for the criminals fate.
This way you have freedom and consequence, without the deviation of automatic consequence. Everything organic, player based, sometimes there will be justice, sometimes there wont, thats the beauty of it.
Some crimes would get unpunished and undiscovered.
A player driven system accounts for human imperfection, for human complexity and interaction.
Thats the idea. You get a recluse town going on in a remote area of the game world where the consequences are ridiculously harsh and rules are unforgiving.
But then, you probably would have people trying to change it. Some people would try to fight it. Some people would just avoid it.
With the tools in the hands of the players, people will have to constantly addapt, their own rules/structures. It will go beyond guild drama. You add social power, influence, politics.
You get a real society going on. Some people will organize a big town with very familiar rules and lots of people wanting to enforce those rules and after a while such town will be known as a very secure place to live.
This all well and nice Inter but what you ask would make people actually use the 2 cells left in there brain for it to work. Most people even in RL have to have some one telling them what to do, they do not care to think for themselves or anything, they dont mind being mindless drones. But then again you would have some people that would actually do as you say, the thinkers those that can see how they can improve the place they settle in, the town or whatever. I dont know I do not think it would work out, like I said people are lazy for the most part, you give them too much to think on and they will just give up. If people find things too hard they wont do it, they want stuff handed to them cause they feel entitled to have stuff.
Just like real life. Not many people care about justice or politics, they let those things to the people who do.
Such roles would be available to those who get interested by those aspects, while others wouldnt be forced to direct the show, they would still live under the rules created by those who do. Same way as in real life.
This is a social aspect of the game. The core gameplay content itself can be completelly different, like a Mount and Blade third person medieval fighting game where most people just want to kill stuff, get rich, drink beer... this doesnt mutually excludes the possibility of others still playing "society". We could still have the same old "be a hero, save the world, but first go fetch me 3 rat tails" content and gameplay.
What Im talking is offering people freedom, while giving them the tools to comply/addapt to whatever situation happens due to freedom. Instead of locking everyone.
To the OP, I have everything you want: go to Asheron's Call Darktide server.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
Ok, I'm not clear whether you aren't understanding what others have already said or are simply a troll, but I'll restate it.
Your "freedoms" boil down to 2 issues.
1. Technical. You want the freedom to have any outcome you can imagine with the princess and the dragon. Fine, but in the real world writing, animating and coding each seperate outcome takes time and money. Now say a company has 1,000 hours of labor to create a game. Each outcome to a scenario takes 1 hour to make. They can either make a game with 2 scenarios, each with 500 possible outcomes, or one with 200 scenarios, each with 5 possible outcomes. You may buy the 2 scene game, but 300,000 folks will buy the 200 scene game. People want content. It should be obvious which one the company will make. (yes, it's the 200 scene game)
2. You want the "freedom" to be a jerk in PvP. Let's keep our hypothetical 300,000 person player base. Now that's dandy, if your at the top of the pecking order. You personally may even be ok with others beating you down and taking your stuff on a regular basis. So that will be enjoyable for folks like you and the few individuals/groups at the top, but the other 299,000 are going to go play something else. Is PvP bad? Absolutely not. But PvP is not now, nor has it ever been more then a niche market in MMO's. That's not a judgement, it's simple numbers. Besides, folks who want this type of "freedom" already have a game: Halo and it's bretheren.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
Good points OP I fully agree. Don't bother arguing with 2005 carebears, most of them believe they know the genre in fact they know nothing about it. 2005 polluted, destroyed our genre with sooo much crybabies its not even funny anymore. I couldn't care less if a game is balanced or not freedom > balance (there will never ever be 100% balance so why try).
MMORPGs transformed from games for gamers into TV like entertainment for braindead TV junkies.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
The rule of Bob and Jack.
Bob wants to be free to do whatever Bob likes in game, right up until Jack does whatever Jack wants and hurts Bob. Then Bob want rules and order to limit Jack's freedom. Bob still wants to be free.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I'm with this guy.
Fortunately MMORPG.COM gives the OP freedom to rant.
lol ya lets give people the freedom to go crash the economy in the game.
I guess you just dont like freedom. That's OK, most people dont. A lot of them think they do, but, like you, they hate and fear it.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
The kind of freedom the OP is requesting is impossible in a video gave that requires any form of AI. Period.
The kind of freedom you speak of is only available in the game called "Real Life", where absolutely anything can be done, so long as it it adheres to the laws of physics.
In a video game, you can only do what has been programmed into it. You simply cannot possible program all possible actions for any situation. It would require an infinite about of Art, animation, boolean ops,
Example, i walk up to a guard and " fill in the blank"
anything that gets added here is more programming, art, animation, testing. We could literally fill an entire thread with this one example alone and all of the resulting work it would yield.
Ignore what you saw in the Matrix, we have not yet learned to mimic real life in a virtual one.
Recommendation: Go back to playing D&D, where a collection of nerds can invent a game that literally has no limited beyond the collective imagination of the group assembled.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I'm assuming the "freedom" everyone's talking about here is the "survival of the fittest" scenario. That is fine and dandy in a combat-centric game. A game that revolves around being the "fittest". The fact is, though, there are far better games for that than an MMO. For example, go check out MAG (256 player FPS). It's good fun. Though I suspect griefers don't actually like playing on a level playing field.
Anyway. On the subject of PvP; I actually think its crucial to most MMOs. Yes, even for the RP peeps. Say your guild is having a meeting, and an enemy shows up. With no PvP, you do what? Ask him to leave? Making threatening emotes at him?
So, while I'm all for open PvP, multiple methods for accomplishing goals, and sandbox gameplay, there also has to be some type of setting and game in there somewhere. If that's not for you, don't play an MMO.
too much freedom makes a bad game.
i dont see the need of all those freedoms in games.