New GW2 vid - pure epicness!!

djazzy

I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that. As I said before, you have your idea about what a game should be, other people have theirs. Anyway, plenty of other games that should suit your fancy.

Fishbaitz

Originally posted by RobertDinh

Since you guys want to use GW1's success to elevate your gw2 arguments (only when it is convenient to you of course) Let us go back to GW1. Anet said they are making GW2 with the spirit of GW1 in mind, but bringing it over to a persistent world. Anyone that was ever a top MMORPG player and has played through GW1, knows the game was a complete cake walk and the content in it should not even be compared to a high production value MMORPG. Pair the fact that the spirit of gw1 is to have fun but present things in an easily winnable fashion, with the fact that anet has already released information that is clearly leaning towards a newb friendly game, and guess what you get a pretty good feel for the direction they are heading.

1. No dedicated healing role, they want every player to be able to solo through the game (mmorpgs need to stop catering to solo play, they are called MMOs for a reason)

2. You've read their articles on death and how they perceive it, they flat out say they don't want it to be a significant inconvenience. This caters to mediocre players who will die more frequently than good players. It also obviously caters to people who would enjoy an easier game where death isn't inconvenient, over people that think when you make a mistake that would lead to your characters death, you should feel the sting for such a mistake.

3. 5player dungeons... no matter which way you slice it, when you are building raid content for 5 players you are simply much more limited in how intense an encounter can be, as opposed to the larger scale raid games that might consider designing content for anywhere from 25-80 players. This is again, another newb friendly feature designed for people to get their feet wet with raiding, but not provide them with any challenge that might be perceived as "too hard". Obviously you won't agree with this, because you are blindly buying into all the hype and excitement.

You know, Dinh, I've always wondered why you joined the GW2G forums, and why you are now talking about GW2 here at mmorpg. None of its features seem to impress you in any way, and it appears to be against ALL of your play style. Its newb friendly, its shallow, its not innovative, ect. I ask, why are you here, why were you at GW2G?

RobertDinh

Old school mmorpg players have been looking for a fun game to play.

What always happens lately though (biggest example being wow) is that you have a bunch of carebears come in and make the loudest noise if things aren't easy enough for them, and the games end up turning out like crap (from a quality standpoint)

GW2 is one of the up and coming games with *potential*

But hey it may just end up being another warhammer online at this rate.

MMORPG forums aren't all just supposed to be people saying "oh man this game looks awesome" no matter what information is actually provided about the game.

djazzy

Sorry Robert that GW2 won't become the grinding raiding pve game that you want. However, good news. There are plenty of those types of games out there that you can play.

kaiser3282

Originally posted by RobertDinh

Since you guys want to use GW1's success to elevate your gw2 arguments (only when it is convenient to you of course) Let us go back to GW1. Anet said they are making GW2 with the spirit of GW1 in mind, but bringing it over to a persistent world. Anyone that was ever a top MMORPG player and has played through GW1, knows the game was a complete cake walk and the content in it should not even be compared to a high production value MMORPG. Pair the fact that the spirit of gw1 is to have fun but present things in an easily winnable fashion, with the fact that anet has already released information that is clearly leaning towards a newb friendly game, and guess what you get a pretty good feel for the direction they are heading. 1. No dedicated healing role, they want every player to be able to solo through the game (mmorpgs need to stop catering to solo play, they are called MMOs for a reason) 2. You've read their articles on death and how they perceive it, they flat out say they don't want it to be a significant inconvenience. This caters to mediocre players who will die more frequently than good players. It also obviously caters to people who would enjoy an easier game where death isn't inconvenient, over people that think when you make a mistake that would lead to your characters death, you should feel the sting for such a mistake. 3. 5player dungeons... no matter which way you slice it, when you are building raid content for 5 players you are simply much more limited in how intense an encounter can be, as opposed to the larger scale raid games that might consider designing content for anywhere from 25-80 players. This is again, another newb friendly feature designed for people to get their feet wet with raiding, but not provide them with any challenge that might be perceived as "too hard". Obviously you won't agree with this, because you are blindly buying into all the hype and excitement.

 Nothing you said even makes the slightest bit of sense.

Any game that doesnt have dedicated healers is super easy? - No

Death penalty = how difficult a game is to accomplish things? - No

Being able to kill mobs with 50 people instead of only 5 = more challening and intense? - No

You can call it hype if you like, but those of us who actually do have experience playing lots of different MMOs have seen various systems/mechanics which dont need to rely on any of the things you said to make gameplay challenging, intense, or whatever you want to call it.

Now please... go back to your "I need a tank and healer to help me do a quest cause i fail at being able to fend for myself. Oh Yeah i need 70 other people to help me figure out how to take down this boss too. Oh and can someone please take away some of my XP when i die, because otherwise I wont know i did something wrong, im too slow to figure that out on my own" game.

RobertDinh

Well it doesn't make sense to you because you have trouble grasping proper reasoning.

The only thing that makes sense to you kaiser is fanboism.

Sakdizzle

Originally posted by kaltoum

Most of the things they mentioned in video like one players action effecting everything around him/her, if you rescuse a village it stays rescused etc etc are only possible in instances. I have no idea how they can pull this off without instances.

 I haven't read the 29 pages of shit, but it can be done with phasing.

Kityn

How many players actually fight in 8 man GW1 groups? 6 if yer lucky.

I think the 5 man dungeon where all 5 players are actually fighting is a good idea. Is too bad that it doesn't scale,but meh. Anet has stated time and time again that they want to put the 'RPG' back into MMOs and that they do not want to make the run of the mill MMO. Having people rely on their own healing abilities is a fantasic idea. No longer blame the monk for lack of your own skills.

Just because the downed state is not a true death,you can still be defeated. The penalty for defeated is longer rez time each time. Mediocre players will have to get better,otherwise they won't gain xp and will die often. The skillfull player will not be penalized nearly as much.

The Raid content will be the events not dungeons. Imagine 100 people participate in an event. That event would scale accordinly. 

We shall see if all this hype accounts to something real soon at Gamescon and PAX. Arenanet has made some pretty bold statements and I feel that they mean it. They wholly believe they have a game changer here.

Robert why such pessimisim? I am an old mmorpger same as you and I have been disappointed time after time as you. I have hope yet that this game will break away and make a new path toward the MMORPG future.

RobertDinh

I'm not pessimistic that's the problem, it only appears that way because people are so puffed up on the hype that thinking rationally becomes a "downer" compared to what they fantasize the game being like. I mean czymann if you've been around the block you should also be able to tell when a dev is trying to create buzz and when he is actually saying something of substance in an interview.

Fishbaitz

Originally posted by Sakdizzle

Originally posted by kaltoum

Most of the things they mentioned in video like one players action effecting everything around him/her, if you rescuse a village it stays rescused etc etc are only possible in instances. I have no idea how they can pull this off without instances.

 I haven't read the 29 pages of shit, but it can be done with phasing.

They are going to pull it off without phasing as well. Think WAR PQ's with a more permanent lasting effect and no timer. E.G, centaurs can take a town, you can take it, rebuild it, and then try to take the centaurs fortress. Each thing sepparated by a comma is a seperate event in and of itself.

kaiser3282

Originally posted by RobertDinh

I'm not pessimistic that's the problem, it only appears that way because people are so puffed up on the hype that thinking rationally becomes a "downer" compared to what they fantasize the game being like. I mean czymann if you've been around the block you should also be able to tell when a dev is trying to create buzz and when he is actually saying something of substance in an interview.

 Sort of how blind hatered and trolling based on hell i dont know wtf (maybe someone banned you from GW1 or something, whatever your beef is with arenanet) blinds you to being able to understand anything even when explained in terms a 10 year old could grasp with ease simply because "im angry and i cant make any valid points so im just going to keep making uneducated assumptions"? Funny how that works.

As ive said before, its not fanboism of anything. Yes i am a fan of GW, but that is irrelevant. These are features/mechanics i have been waiting to see in a game for years, they just happen to be the ones doing it. Its the same for many other people who are tired of the same old tired mechanics game after game after game. if you dont like it, why are you even bothering to comment? Shouldnt you be, i dunno, grinding away in your MMO of choice. Oh wait, better find a tank and healer first or you cant go anywhere.

Kityn

Originally posted by RobertDinh

I'm not pessimistic that's the problem, it only appears that way because people are so puffed up on the hype that thinking rationally becomes a "downer" compared to what they fantasize the game being like. I mean czymann if you've been around the block you should also be able to tell when a dev is trying to create buzz and when he is actually saying something of substance in an interview.

 We will know if that hype was worth it at Gamescon and at PAX and when they have the beta. If it is not good people won't buy it. I have seen other companies hype their games but never have I seen the number of Arenanet employess get into it. The sheer amount of interviews and video interviews ,I believe what they say. This is not the normal hype buzz. They are not blowing smoke up peoples butts. They 100% wholly believe what they are saying to us.

For the people who put too much into it. Please do not get insane hopes of such and such until Anet gives the info. From the info given so far,I like what I see. I will not assume any info until Anet gives it. If Anet can deliever on what they haev stated so far then that is great. Any hype that goes beyond what they have stated is the players fault not Anets.

RobertDinh

Yes kaiser to a fanboi any rational thought that doesn't hype the game up is "hating" and "trolling" in reality it is just rational thought.

You are a fanboi, you just don't realize it, no one wants to come to the realization that they are a fanboi so it is to be expected.

I've been around the mmorpg scene since UO, i've seen literally thousands of people just like you hop onto up and coming games, some of them eventually wisen' up and learn to look at things objectively after enough disappointment and false hope in games that failed to deliver, others never learn and you see them just flock from game to game like sheep hyping and hoping without basing their thoughts on solid foundation. I mean sure they proposed a lot of solid concepts in the manifesto video, but to mindlessly just accept what they say is, well, mindless. They talk about actually seeing centaurs threaten a village instead of just getting a wall of text that says they are threatening it while they just sit in a field waiting to be farmed. Yet when they say in gw2 you actually see the centaurs threatening the village, what did we actually see. We saw a half-hearted scripted event where the centaur run under a bridge or something and it just automatically falls apart like it was made of legos, you don't actually see the centaur chopping at the bridge, you don't see them setting up explosives, it's just a low quality scripted event.

kaiser3282

Originally posted by RobertDinh

Yes kaiser to a fanboi any rational thought that doesn't hype the game up is "hating" and "trolling" in reality it is just rational thought. You are a fanboi, you just don't realize it, no one wants to come to the realization that they are a fanboi so it is to be expected. I've been around the mmorpg scene since UO, i've seen literally thousands of people just like you hop onto up and coming games, some of them eventually wisen' up and learn to look at things objectively after enough disappointment and false hope in games that failed to deliver, others never learn and you see them just flock from game to game like sheep hyping and hoping without basing their thoughts on solid foundation.

You crack me up every time i read something you have to say. Just more and more ignorance. Did i deny it? Perhaps you should edeucate yourself about not only who youre talking to, but also the games youre trying to troll about,a nd well hell i guess the MMORPG genre as a whole before continuing.

I have admitted quite a few times in various threads to being a "fanboy" of Arenanet/Guild Wars now, though i wasnt in the past. Thank you for your failed attempt at insight into my psyche (based as usual on nothing) though. I am a fan for valid reasons, reasons i have tried again and again to explain to you, but you are simply unable to comprehend. I am excited for the game BECAUSE of its features.

Fan of no tank & spank system - check

fan of a dynamic changing world - check

fan of balanced pvp which relies more on strategy and skill than level and gear - check

fan of PvP which involves mor ethan just killing for the sake of killing and involves battling over resources, objectives, etc - check

fan of having an immersive world with lots of great stuff to do besides just fighting - check

fan of several other feature sthey are implementing but im not going to bothe rlisting again - check

 

Now does it matter that this is all being put into Guild Wars 2? No. If they did all these things in WoW, i would be playing WoW right now, but i dont, because i do not like the features and mechanics of the game. I would be excited about any game that has most of these features, even moreso that has all of them.

Guild Wars 2 just happens to be that game. If another game comes along and does it better, then ill be just as big of a fan as that game. Im a fan of innovation, fun gameplay, new mechanics and ideas, and not doing the same thing all day every day in every game for the next 10 years.

Perhaps you should become a fan of it too. Though you'll most likely remain a fan of biased hatred for things you dont understand, and a fan of "it has to be the way i like it an nobody else or else it sucks and im going to troll troll troll troll troll".

RobertDinh

Ok so now that you've admitted you are a fanboi you can start coming to terms with the fact that you are not looking at things objectively and aren't properly educated on all the articles anet has released about the game.

You can also come to terms with the fact that your perspective and logic is that of a fanboi. You can also come to terms with the fact that fanbois often think they are right simply because they lack the capability to look at things from a neutral point of view and use rational thought. (Being a fanboi isn't rational)

kaiser3282

Originally posted by RobertDinh

Ok so now that you've admitted you are a fanboi you can start coming to terms with the fact that you are not looking at things objectively and aren't properly educated on all the articles anet has released about the game. You can also come to terms with the fact that your perspective and logic is that of a fanboi. You can also come to terms with the fact that fanbois often think they are right simply because they lack the capability to look at things from a neutral point of view and use rational thought. (Being a fanboi isn't rational)

 Im fairly certain ive read quite a bit more than you (considering youve been wrong about so many points), or at the very least actual understood what i was reading, which you obviously didnt. I view everything in life objectively, including my gaming, and as i have said already, i am a fan / excited about particular features they are adding into the game. Not just because its guildwars (i didnt even try Guildwars until a few months ago when they started releasing details on GW2 and i saw what they were doing with the game), but because i have been waiting for someone, anyone to start doing things like this and actually changing the stale gameplay a bit. If Blizzard, EA, whoever did it instead, i would be a fan of them, but they dont do it, so im not. But im done trying to explain things to you. Ill be havign a blast playing a NEW game. You go ahead and and enjoy playing the same game youve been playing for 10 years, only wrapped in a different/shinier skin.

Leucrotta

Originally posted by Sakdizzle

Originally posted by kaltoum

Most of the things they mentioned in video like one players action effecting everything around him/her, if you rescuse a village it stays rescused etc etc are only possible in instances. I have no idea how they can pull this off without instances.

 I haven't read the 29 pages of shit, but it can be done with phasing.

not instanced, if it change it changes in the world for everyone. 1 player action can trigger an event for the whole server

RobertDinh

Well you are a fanboi, of course you are going to believe fluff concepts are right.

This will just go in circles, all I can say is there is a difference between looking at things objectively, and being a fanboi who thinks he looks at things objectively.

You've pretty much been ill-informed on everything you've tried to argue, whether it be not understanding what permanent vs temporary impact is, or not understanding that MMOrpg end games are supposed to have an endgame that is MMO oriented, not diablo small group of player oriented.

Or whether it be misconstruing or plainly not knowing about specific information anet has released.

Nothing I say is going to convince you, you are too stuck in your delusion, but hopefully you wisen up someday and realize just how misguided you are.

djazzy

Originally posted by RobertDinh

 You've pretty much been ill-informed on everything you've tried to argue, whether it be not understanding what permanent vs temporary impact is, or not understanding that MMOrpg end games are supposed to have an endgame that is MMO oriented, not diablo small group of player oriented.

 Where is that rule? Can you direct me to the mmorpg handbook?

Snaylor47

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by RobertDinh

 You've pretty much been ill-informed on everything you've tried to argue, whether it be not understanding what permanent vs temporary impact is, or not understanding that MMOrpg end games are supposed to have an endgame that is MMO oriented, not diablo small group of player oriented.

 Where is that rule? Can you direct me to the mmorpg handbook?

Pretty much every MMO actually.  Name five that didn't.....

djazzy

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by RobertDinh

 You've pretty much been ill-informed on everything you've tried to argue, whether it be not understanding what permanent vs temporary impact is, or not understanding that MMOrpg end games are supposed to have an endgame that is MMO oriented, not diablo small group of player oriented.

 Where is that rule? Can you direct me to the mmorpg handbook?

Pretty much every MMO actually.  Name five that didn't.....

 Can you um...show me? I'm a bit slow you see. I'd like to see the mmorpg handbook where it says that a mmorpg end game must all be the same. I'm assuming that you are meaning raids here yes? Well direct me to that part where it says that mmorpgs end games must be raids. I await your help in directing me to this, thanks and have a good day.

Leucrotta

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Pretty much every MMO actually.  Name five that didn't.....

Time for a change then if you cant name five. tons of mmo's but in the end all the same.

GW2 tries it different but yet people want it to stay  the same.....

 

on the other hand though 5 man party dusnt mean you cant enter an dungeon/pvp area etc with more then 1 party?

RobertDinh

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by RobertDinh

 You've pretty much been ill-informed on everything you've tried to argue, whether it be not understanding what permanent vs temporary impact is, or not understanding that MMOrpg end games are supposed to have an endgame that is MMO oriented, not diablo small group of player oriented.

 Where is that rule? Can you direct me to the mmorpg handbook?

 

You really need it explained to you why mmorpgs end-game should be related to the fact that the game is an MMO?  The appeal of mmorpgs and why they were so successful is the massive scale at which people can do things together. 

 

Do you know why their end game is made for 5 player groups with everyone being responsible for most of their own healing?  Because guess what, just like gw1 the pve is going to be lacking in challenge.  Because guess what, people have discovered that in mmorpgs if you make the game so easy that everyone can beat it, it draws in more players (world of warcraft exploded this concept)

MumboJumbo

Originally posted by RobertDinh

Since you guys want to use GW1's success to elevate your gw2 arguments (only when it is convenient to you of course) Let us go back to GW1. Anet said they are making GW2 with the spirit of GW1 in mind, but bringing it over to a persistent world. Anyone that was ever a top MMORPG player and has played through GW1, knows the game was a complete cake walk and the content in it should not even be compared to a high production value MMORPG. Pair the fact that the spirit of gw1 is to have fun but present things in an easily winnable fashion, with the fact that anet has already released information that is clearly leaning towards a newb friendly game, and guess what you get a pretty good feel for the direction they are heading. 1. No dedicated healing role, they want every player to be able to solo through the game (mmorpgs need to stop catering to solo play, they are called MMOs for a reason) 2. You've read their articles on death and how they perceive it, they flat out say they don't want it to be a significant inconvenience. This caters to mediocre players who will die more frequently than good players. It also obviously caters to people who would enjoy an easier game where death isn't inconvenient, over people that think when you make a mistake that would lead to your characters death, you should feel the sting for such a mistake. 3. 5player dungeons... no matter which way you slice it, when you are building raid content for 5 players you are simply much more limited in how intense an encounter can be, as opposed to the larger scale raid games that might consider designing content for anywhere from 25-80 players. This is again, another newb friendly feature designed for people to get their feet wet with raiding, but not provide them with any challenge that might be perceived as "too hard". Obviously you won't agree with this, because you are blindly buying into all the hype and excitement.

I have to say two things on your posts 1. You have an interesting pov 2. This post does make some good arguments and 3. (I lied) the rest of your posts are tending to be lazy arguing or stating your case, trying to drive home fanboi tag instead. Attack the argument not the person, though you could point out this possibility as an alterntive...

But back to this post: In general you perceive a strategy to make easy content that will be more accessible to casual/"carebear" players that will lead to lucrative success. That's a game design contrary to your preferences, for obvious reasons.

I think you may be right. I think if you are a hardcore type of player you might breeze through the PvE content very quickly! I know I'll stroll through it very slowly ; ) But from my point of view, I like this, the easier thing is not really the argument for me, but the accessibility and flexibility is!

EG 1. Healers: You see this as an aid to solo'ing, but I see it also as an aid to jumping into any group and that group getting on with the damn material that's available without fussing over too many preset condtions. There's another slice to this concerning PvP and that is the healer in the holy trinity is a limiting factor and mmo's will vastly improve de-emphasising this, it will lead to greater pvp skill as per FPS games like crow on about. I'm sure of this.

2. Death: I think you are right. I would prefer a harsher penalty if you die, though the downed mechanic is very good addtion.

3. Dungeons: I think you are right here too.

Ok, so you are right in your details, but in terms of PvE, I just want to experience a quality story and not worry about all sorts of issues: Grind, Healers, Level, Gear. I want to enjoy the story of PvE.

Now, once I have achieved End of content, and the time it takes will be for a casual player something like 1.5-3Hrs/Level ~ 2*80 is very adequate content for PvE for me (a casual player) and maybe for alts etc if they pull this off, too.

The way I see it, this is fine for PvE. BUT what I hope will be very challenging is PvP all in formats. I don't care to play against the computer design, but I do concerning other people which I think has more potential for challenge than PvE every can achieve.

So I think point of view is important in this discussion, it's very much what your angle is about and GW2 DOES cater to Casual and Extreme Challenge emphasised in the  best game modes for each from where I am, atm.

@ Kaiser: Very solid Check-List !!

Fan of no tank & spank system - check

fan of a dynamic changing world - check

fan of balanced pvp which relies more on strategy and skill than level and gear - check

fan of PvP which involves mor ethan just killing for the sake of killing and involves battling over resources, objectives, etc - check

fan of having an immersive world with lots of great stuff to do besides just fighting - check

fan of several other feature sthey are implementing but im not going to bothe rlisting again - check

Unknown

 

Oh no it's Dihnosaur again advocating for old school archaic mmo design towards GW2. Still trolling with his mmo elitism  along with his superiority complex just because he played a lot of mmorpgs over the years.  You know Dihn your so called "knowledge" for all things mmo is bullcrap. You should accept that there are developers out there who want to do things differently for mmos, they want to make good GAMES. That is what they are, they're games no matter what genre. Succeed or fail at least some developers are taking risks and it will inspire other developers to improve those risks and maybe come up with their own. Adapt to the changes, appreciate the innovations and admit that you can be wrong sometimes. Really, get rid of this mmo elitist attitude.

/end rant