Star Wars: The Old Republic: Space Combat Cont'd: On Rails Edition!

Snaylor47

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Snaylor47

People do know that the best selling Star Wars game of all times has no space combat right.

 

And on a side note neither did SWG when it first came out.

 

Maybe is just a place holder for future space combat.

 

I'm going to bite here because a number of other users have brought up other successful Star Wars games as a reason to dismiss the fact that SW:TOR will be lacking a proper space component.

This makes no sense. I never played Jedi Knight and thought "This game sucks! I can't be a star pilot!"  Let's be reasonable here. It's because SW:TOR is an MMO that people expect space (and because there is a precedent set with SWG), as I'll explain below.

Ideally, MMORPGs are created to bring a world to life for people to escape into.

Stopped here(Well I didn't really.). No they are not, like any other type of media they are played for fun and not much else. When you start to equate a video game to real life I can no longer continue to take you seriously because now we are looking at the same produce from two different worlds.

MikeB

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Snaylor47

People do know that the best selling Star Wars game of all times has no space combat right.

 

And on a side note neither did SWG when it first came out.

 

Maybe is just a place holder for future space combat.

 

I'm going to bite here because a number of other users have brought up other successful Star Wars games as a reason to dismiss the fact that SW:TOR will be lacking a proper space component.

This makes no sense. I never played Jedi Knight and thought "This game sucks! I can't be a star pilot!"  Let's be reasonable here. It's because SW:TOR is an MMO that people expect space (and because there is a precedent set with SWG), as I'll explain below.

Ideally, MMORPGs are created to bring a world to life for people to escape into.

Stopped here(Well I didn't really.). No they are not, like any other type of media they are played for fun and not much else. When you start to equate a video game to real life I can no longer continue to take you seriously because now we are looking at the same produce from two different worlds.

 

I did not equate it with real life. Video games are a form of escapism, and what sets MMOs apart is their ability to recreate worlds as opposed to focusing on a singular type of experience.

Ozmodan

Stupid move on Bioware's part.  They should have said they would add space combat later.

This game is just going to be Wow with lasers and light saber's.  I still think SWG pre NGE was and still would be a better game if SOE had left it alone.  At least SWG's space component is still the best part of it.

Adding a rinky dink space component just hurts this game.  Have to wait and see if Bioware can prove me wrong.

twrule

I can totally see a picket line forming outside of Disneyland's Star Tours ride over this...

Seriously though - there's a lot of features of SW:TOR I'm not "happy" with, but I'm satisfied.  I'm not happy with the art style, character models that look like they were plucked straight from SWG, the fact that so many of the game mechanics so far are similar to WoW (a game I've already played to death), etc.  It's not my perfect game, so I'm not happy - but I'm satisfied with all those things enough to play the game without too much complaint.  This is no different.

eric_w66

I agree with the OP, I'd rather have ships as houses and instant travel and no space combat than this joke of a space combat system. As the OP points out, once "ingrained" into the game, removing or changing it becomes much harder to do (you'll duplicate effort and irritate a small percentage who actually liked the on-rails approach in the first place).

 

Truly sad to see Bioware taking the "cheap" way out. But then their DLC for Dragon Age and ME2 have been vastly overpriced for the content received.

Snaylor47

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Snaylor47

People do know that the best selling Star Wars game of all times has no space combat right.

 

And on a side note neither did SWG when it first came out.

 

Maybe is just a place holder for future space combat.

 

I'm going to bite here because a number of other users have brought up other successful Star Wars games as a reason to dismiss the fact that SW:TOR will be lacking a proper space component.

This makes no sense. I never played Jedi Knight and thought "This game sucks! I can't be a star pilot!"  Let's be reasonable here. It's because SW:TOR is an MMO that people expect space (and because there is a precedent set with SWG), as I'll explain below.

Ideally, MMORPGs are created to bring a world to life for people to escape into.

Stopped here(Well I didn't really.). No they are not, like any other type of media they are played for fun and not much else. When you start to equate a video game to real life I can no longer continue to take you seriously because now we are looking at the same produce from two different worlds.

 

I did not equate it with real life. Video games are a form of escapism, and what sets MMOs apart is their ability to recreate worlds as opposed to focusing on a singular type of experience.

Well then in that case I am sorry, I misread your post.

 

On topic, This has been said before and will continue to be said, Something is better then nothing.

 

EvE has no ground combat, NONE, ZERO. This game will have (from what I have seen and in my opinion) good ground content, and lets say when I get bored with my characters stories and just wanna blow sh!t up, oh look I can hop into my ship and help blow up a bigger ship. 

 

And this can always be expanded upon, lets say in a new game patch or something. 

RemyVorender

Bottom line: The people that were expecting a Themepark heavy, story-driven MMO to have sim-typed space gameplay, were simply setting themselves up for dissappointment. Just look at what we know about this game so far...this news should come as no real surprise to anyone.

kalinis

I dont see it as a cheap way out. Sure they could of given u space combat as a first person shooter type thing like tie fighter but i sucked at that game. I couldnt figure it out at all . Those types of games dont appeal to everyone. Id perfer space combat on rails to a tie fighter sim type space combat at least on rails i have a chance to get teh quest done. Or the objective complete. I think swtor will do fine. Lets face it none of these games even guild wars 2 will come close to taken wows player base away.

I think the closest game to doing that is tera. Which with its innovative movement combat and cool looking graphics looks like a game players may turn to. That said wow is a beast with over 11 mill subscribers even at its heyday guild wars 1 didnt come close to that. so before we all say guidl wars 2 might become the number 1 mmo lets slow down and realize games for years have takent there shot at wow and failed. If any game can take on wow thanks to its already huge fan base its swtor. I personally am more into the ground based sith/jedi stuff then i ever would be into space combat anyways.

Snaylor47

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Stupid move on Bioware's part.  They should have said they would add space combat later.

This game is just going to be Wow with lasers and light saber's.  I still think SWG pre NGE was and still would be a better game if SOE had left it alone.  At least SWG's space component is still the best part of it.

Adding a rinky dink space component just hurts this game.  Have to wait and see if Bioware can prove me wrong.

I really need to get off this forum.....

 

Any way, SWG was bleeding 10k subs a month prior to NGE, SOE was asked to fix. and this "rinky dink" space component is more then what SWG had at launch.

maskedweasel

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Snaylor47

People do know that the best selling Star Wars game of all times has no space combat right.

 

And on a side note neither did SWG when it first came out.

 

Maybe is just a place holder for future space combat.

 

I'm going to bite here because a number of other users have brought up other successful Star Wars games as a reason to dismiss the fact that SW:TOR will be lacking a proper space component.

This makes no sense. I never played Jedi Knight and thought "This game sucks! I can't be a star pilot!"  Let's be reasonable here. It's because SW:TOR is an MMO that people expect space (and because there is a precedent set with SWG), as I'll explain below.

Ideally, MMORPGs are created to bring a world to life for people to escape into. Whether that be an original IP or a licensed IP. In the case of fantasy games, having a separate component such as space is obviously not an issue, but when you take on games based on IPs like Star Trek and Star Wars, there is more to the universe than what you find on the ground, and so in order to provide a convincing experience I would argue space should be pretty high up there in importance. The reverse was true for gamers disappointed with Star Trek Online's ground experience. While expectations of a full-on virtual world/sandbox game like Star Wars Galaxies are no longer realistic in this day and age, we still hope that developers continue to dare to dream with their games and strike as much of a balance as possible.

You can dance around this all day, but if you really appreciate Star Wars, being limited to exploring the ground when taking to the stars is possible within the context of the setting is a disappointment. 2-8 minute diversions based on shallow on-rails gameplay doesn't cut it as making up the whole of the space combat experience.

Ultimately, what is more disappointing about this development beyond anything else are the implications it creates. It took a long time for a new Star Wars MMO to appaer after Star Wars Galaxies, and it'll likely be even longer before we'd ever see another one. So simply telling people who are huge Star Wars fans to just "not play the game" is a bit insensitive. For those of us who share my point of view on this issue, I feel confident in saying we want to play, and like the game, and we are simply expressing our dissatisfaction with Bioware's decision here.

I think people are as vocal as they are about this particular issue precisely because of the implications. A lot hinges on this particular game for fans of the IP and genre. The game is most certainly going to fall short of many gamers' lofty expectations, the issue is, it didn't have to fall short on this one. They could have launched it without space and done it properly later. They don't churn these things out every 18 months like they do on the single player/non MMO side of things.

By the way, you are all more than welcome to disagree with myself or anyone else participating in this discussion, but I ask you all to please respect each other's opinions and keep it civil. I'm not sure anyone (including myself) who feels the way I do about this issue can convince those of you out there that feel we are being ridiculous otherwise, but I do hope that my column can spark some good discussion nonetheless.

P.S. I still plan on playing the game. I'll be writing these columns every week and I simply decided to use this week's column to express my dissatisfaction with a recent development.

A key point here is you are saying BioWare isn't doing Space Combat "properly" meaning,  to your (and others) standards,  which I think is a gaffe to say the least.  

 

The tunnel gameplay exemplifies the star wars combat experience into a short, and yes, it could possibly even be considered a "shallow" experience.  I can't tell you whether this content will be fun or not,  but I can tell you that they didn't create this content over the course of a month.  

 

Simulations are not the focus here.    Would it be great to have a wider space simulation?  Of course it would,  but is it necessary?  Absolutely not.  Eventhough I would rather have Jump to Lightspeed gameplay,  I can't say that their vision of space combat isn't "proper" because in truth,   it IS proper.  There HAVE been star wars flight games like this.  They WERE fun,  and though it doesn't give players the open space to fly around in,  I don't think any of us can, or SHOULD dismiss it without seeing what they produce first.

Mallahk

Still little info and i doubt bioware will do anything in this game with low quality.... Anyway i would prefer a expansion or a big big patch or maybe a dlc qith a much "bigger" space combat......

uohaloran

At this rate the game will just play itself!  I'll only have to pick dialogue choices that have minimal outcome.

Star Wars Talking Simulator: 2011

dlunas

Well, it's launch, and if it's done decently, won't upset me....too much.  It IS a theme park game, as much as I would like otherwise.  My opinion for the game?  Start theme park, with the shooter thing, then build on and expand each part in turn.  We're already getting ships as player housing, right?  Maybe just have the rails shooter as a placeholder, then slowly drop in bits and pieces for it.  I'd love to see the space part be mostly optional for people to actually play, and they could just have people never interact with the ships aside from boarding them and having another player transport them, or hiring an npc transport.  Bah, we don't have the server capacity or bandwith to do what I want to do with a SW game, so I'll not hold this against Bioware too much.

Distopia

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Snaylor47

People do know that the best selling Star Wars game of all times has no space combat right.

 

And on a side note neither did SWG when it first came out.

 

Maybe is just a place holder for future space combat.

 

I'm going to bite here because a number of other users have brought up other successful Star Wars games as a reason to dismiss the fact that SW:TOR will be lacking a proper space component.

This makes no sense. I never played Jedi Knight and thought "This game sucks! I can't be a star pilot!"  Let's be reasonable here. It's because SW:TOR is an MMO that people expect space (and because there is a precedent set with SWG), as I'll explain below.

Ideally, MMORPGs are created to bring a world to life for people to escape into. Whether that be an original IP or a licensed IP. In the case of fantasy games, having a separate component such as space is obviously not an issue, but when you take on games based on IPs like Star Trek and Star Wars, there is more to the universe than what you find on the ground, and so in order to provide a convincing experience I would argue space should be pretty high up there in importance. The reverse was true for gamers disappointed with Star Trek Online's ground experience. While expectations of a full-on virtual world/sandbox game like Star Wars Galaxies are no longer realistic in this day and age, we still hope that developers continue to dare to dream with their games and strike as much of a balance as possible.

You can dance around this all day, but if you really appreciate Star Wars, being limited to exploring the ground when taking to the stars is possible within the context of the setting is a disappointment. 2-8 minute diversions based on shallow on-rails gameplay doesn't cut it as making up the whole of the space combat experience.

Ultimately, what is more disappointing about this development beyond anything else are the implications it creates. It took a long time for a new Star Wars MMO to appaer after Star Wars Galaxies, and it'll likely be even longer before we'd ever see another one. So simply telling people who are huge Star Wars fans to just "not play the game" is a bit insensitive. For those of us who share my point of view on this issue, I feel confident in saying we want to play, and like the game, and we are simply expressing our dissatisfaction with Bioware's decision here.

I think people are as vocal as they are about this particular issue precisely because of the implications. A lot hinges on this particular game for fans of the IP and genre. The game is most certainly going to fall short of many gamers' lofty expectations, the issue is, it didn't have to fall short on this one. They could have launched it without space and done it properly later. They don't churn these things out every 18 months like they do on the single player/non MMO side of things.

By the way, you are all more than welcome to disagree with myself or anyone else participating in this discussion, but I ask you all to please respect each other's opinions and keep it civil. I'm not sure anyone (including myself) who feels the way I do about this issue can convince those of you out there that feel we are being ridiculous otherwise, but I do hope that my column can spark some good discussion nonetheless.

P.S. I still plan on playing the game. I'll be writing these columns every week and I simply decided to use this week's column to express my dissatisfaction with a recent development.

A key point here is you are saying BioWare isn't doing Space Combat "properly" meaning,  to your (and others) standards,  which I think is a gaffe to say the least.  

 

The tunnel gameplay exemplifies the star wars combat experience into a short, and yes, it could possibly even be considered a "shallow" experience.  I can't tell you whether this content will be fun or not,  but I can tell you that they didn't create this content over the course of a month.  

 

Simulations are not the focus here.    Would it be great to have a wider space simulation?  Of course it would,  but is it necessary?  Absolutely not.  Eventhough I would rather have Jump to Lightspeed gameplay,  I can't say that their vision of space combat isn't "proper" because in truth,   it IS proper.  There HAVE been star wars flight games like this.  They WERE fun,  and though it doesn't give players the open space to fly around in,  I don't think any of us can, or SHOULD dismiss it without seeing what they produce first.

Yeah i have to agree with this post. If this were a sandbox game or virtual world sim, I'd understand the need for such concerns. This just reinforces the fact that TOR is a video-game, and not a simulator.

They are aiming for fun not realism. If you don't like that and it disappoints you fair enough. Just remember a video-game is fun for different reason than what makes a simulator fun. Also remember a video-game is the sum of all of it's parts, a feature that lacks can be made up for in other departments.

@Mikeb I know it may make no sense to you that some people are saying "this" star wars GAME didn't have space combat and it was still fun. However the point has merit, just as much anyway as saying if it's star wars it should have a deep space mechanic. Neither of these points are ridiculous IMO, as it's something that stems from a persons personal preference.

In the end it is what it is, and we have not had a hands on with it, who knows maybe you'll find it fun? In the end that's what matters most, is it not?

uohaloran

Sure, fun is what matters, but you make it seem like you can't have fun without making a theme park game.

 

Not worth really worrying over.  It's still a long ways away from even seeing the light of day methinks.

Distopia

Originally posted by uohaloran

Sure, fun is what matters, but you make it seem like you can't have fun without making a theme park game.

 

Not worth really worrying over.  It's still a long ways away from even seeing the light of day methinks.

That's not what I meant at all, I was more or less saying both sandbox and theme-park have their own distinct styles of fun.

elocke

This thread is the reason Square keeps the brunt of their games secret until it launches. I wonder if Bioware sometimes just goes "Why did we even mention it?!"

So much conjecture over something we haven't even seen yet. It's mindboggling really, we are arguing semantics at this point. This is also why I am choosing to not play Betas anymore and just get games on day 1 and enjoy them from their on out and make my decisions on whether to sub or bail after extensive playtime.

wgc01

I agree, I was not expecting any space combat at launch, so this is better than nothing, even at launch an mmo is never complete, I would expect when paid expansions come along space will be expanded upon along with many other things, besides we have more of an RPG/mmo here, my expections are just for a fun game, nothing more...:)

riginally posted by immodium

I think people who claim to be upset about the news have only got themselves to blame.

You are in space and there is combat. Bioware in no way have stated they are trying to make an MMOSpaceSim game.

Yes, maybe they shouldn't of bothered with this "half-assed rail shooter" and dedicated more development to the core of the game.

This game is being marketed as an RPG not a Flight Sim. If anything the unhappy people should be pleased there is any space combat in it at all.

uohaloran

Originally posted by elocke

This thread is the reason Square keeps the brunt of their games secret until it launches. I wonder if Bioware sometimes just goes "Why did we even mention it?!"

So much conjecture over something we haven't even seen yet. It's mindboggling really, we are arguing semantics at this point. This is also why I am choosing to not play Betas anymore and just get games on day 1 and enjoy them from their on out and make my decisions on whether to sub or bail after extensive playtime.

 

I like having mystery and that feeling of uncharted territories when I jump into a game.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think anyone else does anymore.

chriswsm

Patiently awaits the next article and the following series of unfounded comments by a negitive bunch of miseryguts.

 

Remember folks this game comes with housing from the outset (ships).

Improvements are likely to come in time to space combat.

Cheer up FFS

 

TheMaelstrom

"That’s right. Do a barrel roll, baby."

 

I fu#&ing LOL'd soooo hard at that one. Epic!

McGamer

Originally posted by immodium

I think people who claim to be upset about the news have only got themselves to blame.

You are in space and there is combat. Bioware in no way have stated they are trying to make an MMOSpaceSim game.

Yes, maybe they shouldn't of bothered with this "half-assed rail shooter" and dedicated more development to the core of the game.

This game is being marketed as an RPG not a Flight Sim. If anything the unhappy people should be pleased there is any space combat in it at all.

"...people should be pleased there is any space combat in it at all." Are you serious? Since when does being a gamer involve settling for anything but a great game?

It is ideas like what immodium posted(imo), that leads devs to thinking that producing mediocre, half-baked mmo's is acceptable.

The only ones to blame, if anyone, are those who vote with their hard-earned money by paying for mediocre games. 

Instead of trying to cram in as much half-baked content into SWTOR, BW need to scale back and put only solid full content features in. 

Distopia

Originally posted by Czanrei

"...people should be pleased there is any space combat in it at all." Are you serious? Since when does being a gamer involve settling for anything but a great game?

It is ideas like what immodium posted(imo), leads devs to thinking that producing mediocre, half-done mmo's is acceptable.

The only ones to blame, if anyone, are those who vote with their hard-earned money by paying for mediocre games. 

Instead of trying to cram in as much half-baked content into SWTOR, BW need to scale back and put only solid full content features in. 

WHo's to say whether it will or won't be a full content feature? Who is to say if this game is medicore or not at this point?

It's a mini game, they'll likely have more of them in the game, such as Pazaak and possibly  pod-racing as two examples. There may even be more than that.

Maybe the reason behind such a small focus on space-combat is to make sure the rest of the game is deep and complete. Then again maybe not, the fact is we don't know, making it a bit early to be writing things off as mediocre...

Kylrathin

This announcement does nothing more than justify the position that the game is, by and large, a single-player game with multiplayer elements.  Sure, there will be MMO features, of course, they've told us - player housing in your ship with "customization" (no details on this yet), group dungeons and instances, and... other stuff, I guess.  But even themepark MMOs are offering more freedom than this one is appearing to.  Space isn't going to be a game, it looks like it's going to be a barely interactive ride.  I hope I'm wrong.  But with the exception of seamless atmospheric-to-space flight, SOE got JTL right, and it looks a million times better than what this is turning out to be.

 

(The preceding was brought to you by the anti-SOE fanboy. Er, SOE megatroll? One who wishes nothing but bad and evil things on Sony Online Entertainment.)

Kriosis

Originally posted by Kylrathin

This announcement does nothing more than justify the position that the game is, by and large, a single-player game with multiplayer elements.  Sure, there will be MMO features, of course, they've told us - player housing in your ship with "customization" (no details on this yet), group dungeons and instances, and... other stuff, I guess.  But even themepark MMOs are offering more freedom than this one is appearing to.  Space isn't going to be a game, it looks like it's going to be a barely interactive ride.  I hope I'm wrong.  But with the exception of seamless atmospheric-to-space flight, SOE got JTL right, and it looks a million times better than what this is turning out to be.

 

(The preceding was brought to you by the anti-SOE fanboy. Er, SOE megatroll? One who wishes nothing but bad and evil things on Sony Online Entertainment.)

What a contradiction, it's a single player game but isn't? Just curious as to what makes this a single player game. With planets being open. Is it these "2-8 minute long" space battles (that you haven't seen) or is it instancing aka flashpoints, those are definitely new to the genre, perhaps it's the phasing you have beef with? Maybe you know something I don't know, got a link?