And for the record the reason I have such a great memory about camping the ghoulbane for 27 hours is the fact its not a soloable spawn. I had 20+ people that cycled through to help me as the hours wore on. Who wouldnt feel good about 20+ people gave enough of a darn about you to take time out of their day to do something nice for you?
This is an important point Arcken makes. These were games where in order to succeed, you needed serious help from friends. And in order to have those kind of friends, you had to be a helpful person to others and enjoy a good reputation. The bonds between players were very strong in those days. They also knew who the selfish doucebags were ....
There are quite a lot of us who remember what is was like in the days when logging on meant, more often than not, doing something to help a friend or guildmate that day. And on those occasions when a small army of folks showed up just to help you, it really was a moving experience.
Sorry but that isnt true at all.. People of a certain personality will attact others of the same personality whether its good or bad. Being helpful really has nothing to do with it when large guilds would camp these areas to gear out their members while effectievely being buttholes locking out everyone else. If you wanted to get anywhere in EQ1 you had to be part butthole and part suckup. Its that simple.
People were closed off in their ' circles " and noone else mattered because the people in their circles were only interested in improving the guild or whatever and thats why people joined them in the first place. The great comminuty only existed in peoples minds as if they were in some sort of large buttkissing match.
Only being 26 I still started out with text based games then I moved to to Graphical Muds like Drakkar and Kesmai ( which BTW offer much more than UO or even EQ as for as community , adventure and fun goes ). In fact no MMO even offers adventure or community outside a person own personal want to improve their character.
Actually guilds like that do exist. I've been part of three guild like that in WoW over the last 5 years. People willing to help you just because they can adn willing to come help you if your relly needed help.
What I found out is that guilds based solely on progression or grinding will fall apart if the carrot at the end of the road is removed. Without the reward and/or status symbol people will take a look around and find that they might not actually like the people they play with.
What seems to be coming through in the last page or two of comments is that there is a clear distinction between people that play WoW and other MMORPGs as simply a game for a bit of fun and those that play them for something more. For the social interaction, the thrill of discovery and sense of achievement. Neither group are right nor wrong but they do have dramatic differences in what each considers acceptable in regards to their return on effort.
If I could make an analogy I would say it is a bit like the difference between going to a concert and going to a music festival. In both you have music and both can be considered an experience but they are not the same thing at all and many people that would attend one would never ever attend the other. Well, maybe most would attend a concert in a nice clean building but others find the hardcore attitude needed for a festival to be unpleasant.
The problem I guess is that while the older games like EQ are still around everyone wants to play the new shiny games yet want to keep the old feelings that they had when they played before.
I would like to think that there is plenty of room for both as the end result is actually the same which is to put something out that people enjoy playing. If you don't enjoy playing a particular game then that is fine just go and try another one but it is a false and somewhat arrogant assumption to think that because a particular game or game style didn't meet your requirements that it isn't acceptable to others.
Dude, I think you have the over-all gist of it, but I don't think you understand the severity and misconception involved.
First, old school player have no game to try out. Nothing in the last 5 years is remotely to our standards. So, we wait & wait...
Not only that, most the people here probably never experienced a MMORPG, thus have no basis for their comments. Yet, want to inceassantly voice their opinions on up and comming games. It's a pandemic.
And wait...and wait....and wait. Again as I've said before I think it's because MMORPG designers are trying to fit to many different types of game players under one umbrella and the players have grown to expect that. MMORPGs are nolonger that. They are an entirely different beast, which in the end makes no one happy.
No dude, the term you are looking for and what is the correct phrase is MMO.. MMORPG are not what is being made, of late. What to call them is not a question, what to stop calling them is!
You acknowledge that games are different, yet you failed to recognise there is a difference in telling someone you are making an MMORPG, than a MMO..
My error, I do understand the difference though. You are correct they are not making mmorpgs, they are making mmo's. Which is our loss.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
And for the record the reason I have such a great memory about camping the ghoulbane for 27 hours is the fact its not a soloable spawn. I had 20+ people that cycled through to help me as the hours wore on. Who wouldnt feel good about 20+ people gave enough of a darn about you to take time out of their day to do something nice for you?
This is an important point Arcken makes. These were games where in order to succeed, you needed serious help from friends. And in order to have those kind of friends, you had to be a helpful person to others and enjoy a good reputation. The bonds between players were very strong in those days. They also knew who the selfish doucebags were ....
There are quite a lot of us who remember what is was like in the days when logging on meant, more often than not, doing something to help a friend or guildmate that day. And on those occasions when a small army of folks showed up just to help you, it really was a moving experience.
Sorry but that isnt true at all.. People of a certain personality will attact others of the same personality whether its good or bad. Being helpful really has nothing to do with it when large guilds would camp these areas to gear out their members while effectievely being buttholes locking out everyone else. If you wanted to get anywhere in EQ1 you had to be part butthole and part suckup. Its that simple.
People were closed off in their ' circles " and noone else mattered because the people in their circles were only interested in improving the guild or whatever and thats why people joined them in the first place. The great comminuty only existed in peoples minds as if they were in some sort of large buttkissing match.
Only being 26 I still started out with text based games then I moved to to Graphical Muds like Drakkar and Kesmai ( which BTW offer much more than UO or even EQ as for as community , adventure and fun goes ). In fact no MMO even offers adventure or community outside a person own personal want to improve their character.
While that is true to some extent, it wasn't the prevailing motive of the majority of players as much so as it is today, in my opinion. The fact that the great communities only existed in our minds is still quite valid, since they no longer exist (to many of us) in any games currently available. Even the old games have changed to fit the motives of the new generation. The communities used to exist to serve the players. Now they are just a tool to be used when necessary. Transparent.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
When WoW showed by going easy mode you can take your player base from 5 million to 11 million.
Can't say WoW at relase because it was substantially harder than the game that exists now.
Well, i was there since BC. It was SILLY when only TWO percentage of the player base have seen the inside of Sunwell. That is a monumental waste of resources.
NOW is MUCH better. You don't have to sweat it until you play hard mode raid. In fact, go take a look at wow-heroes.com, NOT all the guilds have cleared ICC 25 .. although more have now than back in the old days. This is an IMPROVEMENT to MOST players because they have more content to play with.
And if you really want a challenge, go kill LK in hard mode 25, or play the arena.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
True, but the mmos before WOW were fun to many players, just not as fun to as many casual gamers who now make up the lions share of the market, and there in lies the rub.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
People have different views of what's entertaining.
Some people enjoy building models, collecting stamps, etc, which many people would consider "work" to do. To those who enjoy them however, they're hobbies.
That's exactly what the people asking for virtual world MMOs are looking for, an MMO that's worthy of being a hobby, not just brainless instant gratification.
Apparently the majority of gamers don't have the patience or attention span required of a hobby.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
True, but the mmos before WOW were fun to many players, just not as fun to as many casual gamers who now make up the lions share of the market, and there in lies the rub.
That's just a difference of opinion which can ultimately be negotiated. However, the key to this entire sorry argument is that the 'old school' player think they are better than the casuals and the casual laughing themselves silly when told of this.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
True, but the mmos before WOW were fun to many players, just not as fun to as many casual gamers who now make up the lions share of the market, and there in lies the rub.
That's just a difference of opinion which can ultimately be negotiated. However, the key to this entire sorry argument is that the 'old school' player think they are better than the casuals and the casual laughing themselves silly when told of this.
Wow, really? That is your entire take on what we were talking about? Talk about a limited ability to understand. I think that there is a FPS missing you.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
People have different views of what's entertaining.
Some people enjoy building models, collecting stamps, etc, which many people would consider "work" to do. To those who enjoy them however, they're hobbies.
That's exactly what the people asking for virtual world MMOs are looking for, an MMO that's worthy of being a hobby, not just brainless instant gratification.
Apparently the majority of gamers don't have the patience or attention span required of a hobby.
Your hobby will never get any respect if you do not respect other people's hobbies. Just imagine the reaction of the stamp collectors if the model plane builders told them that stamp collecting was brainless instant gratification because the stamp collectors did not really do any 'work'.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
People have different views of what's entertaining.
Some people enjoy building models, collecting stamps, etc, which many people would consider "work" to do. To those who enjoy them however, they're hobbies.
That's exactly what the people asking for virtual world MMOs are looking for, an MMO that's worthy of being a hobby, not just brainless instant gratification.
Apparently the majority of gamers don't have the patience or attention span required of a hobby.
Your hobby will never get any respect if you do not respect other people's hobbies. Just imagine the reaction of the stamp collectors if the model plane builders told them that stamp collecting was brainless instant gratification because the stamp collectors did not really do any 'work'.
Which is my point...
Most of today's MMO gamers don't even consider MMOS hobbies. They only consider them a way to unwind at the end of the day without having to think or put much commitment into them. In other words, they're casual gamers, not hobbyists, and they treat the games as nothing more than casual games. They can't even percieve of a reality where some people actually enjoy participating in a virtual world. The idea is completely foriegn to them.
I can respect them having their own games to play, so long as it doesn't trample over my hobby. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. The casual gamers wandered into the genre and started complaining that they didn't want to take part in the hobby, they just wanted to show up and have their hands held down a themepark ride of a game.
And when I talk about casual, I don't necessarly mean people who don't play much. I'm talking about people who are completely put off by the slightest hint of putting any actual effort or higher level thought into an MMO. These are the people who want instant gratification, quest helpers and guides telling them how to level every step of the way. These are people who should in all likelyhood, not be playing MMOs in general, because what they want contradicts with many of the main purposes of the MMO genre.
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
True, but the mmos before WOW were fun to many players, just not as fun to as many casual gamers who now make up the lions share of the market, and there in lies the rub.
That's just a difference of opinion which can ultimately be negotiated. However, the key to this entire sorry argument is that the 'old school' player think they are better than the casuals and the casual laughing themselves silly when told of this.
Torik, I'm not happy myself with what some of my fellow Sandbox players are saying about your game style. Yeah, I get the "arrogance" thing you see. But it's really from frustration, not a hate for WoW clones.
But "Sandbox" games allow for just as much "casual" game play as your WoW clones, where the players generally hammer their heads against a brick wall to race through levels to get to end game, but don't have to. So, they both have hardcore play, or casual play. That's not really the issue, the issue is what the game play is like. We want a world, you're happy with scripted direction.
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
That is just silly. It is a free world. No one is forcing anyone to do somethign they don't want.
All casuals are doing, is to buy/pay for the games they like. Are you crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
That is just silly. It is a free world. No one is forcing anyone to do somethign they don't want.
All casuals are doing, is to buy/pay for the games they like. Are you crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
I'm talking about the players from the older MMOs that complained to no end about it 'being too hard' to do anything.
UO and EQ were pushed into easymode before WoW was released, for example. Why? Because of the vocal minority at the time, complaining that things took "too much effort" or was "too hard".
And sure, newer MMOs have tried to clone WoW success, but look where the majority of them have ended up. They're husks of games that are so shallow they can't even keep the attention of all but a few. So really, the arguement that 'casual is in' is based mainly upon the success of WOW. Which itself is a freak abberition of success, based mainly around Blizzard's ability to overhype and market it's own company and franchise image to lure people who aren't MMO gamers into their game.
The majority of those new to the MMO scene are in it because of WoW. They have no other reference or experience to go by, so WoW sets the standards for everything to them. Which is extremely sad because they are ignorant of all of the good features that were in older MMOs that the latest generation of MMOs, WoW included, outright lack.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
True, but the mmos before WOW were fun to many players, just not as fun to as many casual gamers who now make up the lions share of the market, and there in lies the rub.
That's just a difference of opinion which can ultimately be negotiated. However, the key to this entire sorry argument is that the 'old school' player think they are better than the casuals and the casual laughing themselves silly when told of this.
That may be true, but there are plenty of old schoolers who are well aware that times change and that we are just different. It's the same when some casual player comes in and says something to the effect of, "we are the majority so you don't really matter to the developers". Most probably know that is not true, nor is it true that all casual players just want things to be easy.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
People have different views of what's entertaining.
Some people enjoy building models, collecting stamps, etc, which many people would consider "work" to do. To those who enjoy them however, they're hobbies.
That's exactly what the people asking for virtual world MMOs are looking for, an MMO that's worthy of being a hobby, not just brainless instant gratification.
Apparently the majority of gamers don't have the patience or attention span required of a hobby.
Your hobby will never get any respect if you do not respect other people's hobbies. Just imagine the reaction of the stamp collectors if the model plane builders told them that stamp collecting was brainless instant gratification because the stamp collectors did not really do any 'work'.
Which is my point...
Most of today's MMO gamers don't even consider MMOS hobbies. They only consider them a way to unwind at the end of the day without having to think or put much commitment into them. In other words, they're casual gamers, not hobbyists, and they treat the games as nothing more than casual games. They can't even percieve of a reality where some people actually enjoy participating in a virtual world. The idea is completely foriegn to them.
I can respect them having their own games to play, so long as it doesn't trample over my hobby. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. The casual gamers wandered into the genre and started complaining that they didn't want to take part in the hobby, they just wanted to show up and have their hands held down a themepark ride of a game.
And when I talk about casual, I don't necessarly mean people who don't play much. I'm talking about people who are completely put off by the slightest hint of putting any actual effort or higher level thought into an MMO. These are the people who want instant gratification, quest helpers and guides telling them how to level every step of the way. These are people who should in all likelyhood, not be playing MMOs in general, because what they want contradicts with many of the main purposes of the MMO genre.
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
Ah but Cerideth you are making the classic mistake - Assuming that how you define something is how others define something or is the actual definition.
What you have described to be casual gamers is what I call a hobbyist (sp) and is exactly how I and many I know approach all their hobbies. We define a hobby as something that we use to relax at the end of the day with, to have fun with, sometimes to think with and other times just to unwind with. Thats what I do with MMO's, modelling, painting, and building. They are things I enjoy, things I like to do and at times all involve thought and carefull planning and at times all involve just grunt work. So to me and many of these other people that you say are not hobbyists, we say we are and we are treating it like we would any hobby.
And realistically the number of people who define casual by your definition ( I'm talking about people who are completely put off by the slightest hint of putting any actual effort or higher level thought into an MMO. These are the people who want instant gratification, quest helpers and guides telling them how to level every step of the way. These are people who should in all likelyhood, not be playing MMOs in general, because what they want contradicts with many of the main purposes of the MMO genre) are likely a very very very small part of any game population. I've actually never met anyone who wasn't willing to put in some work along the way, or some thought along the way and I am by no means a hard core gamer. I can't imagine a dev taking those people too seriously because IMO anyway their extreme demographic is just too low to warrant any attention - I would hope that is the case anyway. Just like the extreme hardcore on the other side.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
That is just silly. It is a free world. No one is forcing anyone to do somethign they don't want.
All casuals are doing, is to buy/pay for the games they like. Are you crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
This is false. The entireity of america is coming to this. States can't even make laws anymore without federal givernment getting involved.
Everyone wants to force themselves and their beliefs on everyone else. It's becomming the american way.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
True, but the mmos before WOW were fun to many players, just not as fun to as many casual gamers who now make up the lions share of the market, and there in lies the rub.
That's just a difference of opinion which can ultimately be negotiated. However, the key to this entire sorry argument is that the 'old school' player think they are better than the casuals and the casual laughing themselves silly when told of this.
I am an oldschool player and I certainly don't think i'm 'better' then the 'casuals'. But I don't have to like what their introduction has done to the mmo market anymore then they have to like FFA pvp sandboxes with full looting and skill grinds. The mmo market has evolved, thats healthy and good for the genre ultimately and it will continue to evolve as the market changes, but it''s undeniable the that games have been 'toned' down to appeal to an ever larger market base.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
That is just silly. It is a free world. No one is forcing anyone to do somethign they don't want.
All casuals are doing, is to buy/pay for the games they like. Are you crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
I'm talking about the players from the older MMOs that complained to no end about it 'being too hard' to do anything.
UO and EQ were pushed into easymode before WoW was released, for example. Why? Because of the vocal minority at the time, complaining that things took "too much effort" or was "too hard".
And sure, newer MMOs have tried to clone WoW success, but look where the majority of them have ended up. They're husks of games that are so shallow they can't even keep the attention of all but a few. So really, the arguement that 'casual is in' is based mainly upon the success of WOW. Which itself is a freak abberition of success, based mainly around Blizzard's ability to overhype and market it's own company and franchise image to lure people who aren't MMO gamers into their game.
The majority of those new to the MMO scene are in it because of WoW. They have no other reference or experience to go by, so WoW sets the standards for everything to them. Which is extremely sad because they are ignorant of all of the good features that were in older MMOs that the latest generation of MMOs, WoW included, outright lack.
Everyone has the right to complain. That is called the first admendment right in the US.
And by WOW numbers, i highly doubt it is a vocal "minority", more like a super majority.
And the ONLY reason why WOW attracts so many new players is that because it is MORE FUN than the old school stuff. I was there. EQ was a HORRIBLE grind. UO is just horrible .. ganging, clicking on rocks to level up mining, everyone a tank mage .... it will be a surprise if WOW did not attract more players.
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
That is just silly. It is a free world. No one is forcing anyone to do somethign they don't want.
All casuals are doing, is to buy/pay for the games they like. Are you crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
I'm talking about the players from the older MMOs that complained to no end about it 'being too hard' to do anything.
UO and EQ were pushed into easymode before WoW was released, for example. Why? Because of the vocal minority at the time, complaining that things took "too much effort" or was "too hard".
And sure, newer MMOs have tried to clone WoW success, but look where the majority of them have ended up. They're husks of games that are so shallow they can't even keep the attention of all but a few. So really, the arguement that 'casual is in' is based mainly upon the success of WOW. Which itself is a freak abberition of success, based mainly around Blizzard's ability to overhype and market it's own company and franchise image to lure people who aren't MMO gamers into their game.
The majority of those new to the MMO scene are in it because of WoW. They have no other reference or experience to go by, so WoW sets the standards for everything to them. Which is extremely sad because they are ignorant of all of the good features that were in older MMOs that the latest generation of MMOs, WoW included, outright lack.
Everyone has the right to complain. That is called the first admendment right in the US.
And by WOW numbers, i highly doubt it is a vocal "minority", more like a super majority.
And the ONLY reason why WOW attracts so many new players is that because it is MORE FUN than the old school stuff. I was there. EQ was a HORRIBLE grind. UO is just horrible .. ganging, clicking on rocks to level up mining, everyone a tank mage .... it will be a surprise if WOW did not attract more players.
I said the vocal minority for EQ and UO, I wasn't talking about WoW.
And WoW being "more fun" is the hook that retains players, it's not directly what attracts new players. The main draw of players was from Blizzard's advertising and ability to draw from their rabidly loyal fanbase to try a game in a genre they've never even heard of before. This coupled with their strong marketing arm, were able to attract players to try the game that had never even played, let alone seen or heard of, an MMO before.
Most WoW players have never seen, let alone tried, a game like EQ or UO. Your personal view that EQ and UO weren't enjoyable is your personal opinion. If you actually played these games for any length of time, then I can respect your view. You do not however, speak for the millions of other MMO players that have never seen, let alone played, EQ or UO. For all you know, a good portion of them may have actually enjoyed those games as much, if not more so, than WoW. Sadly, they'll never get a chance to try a game with similar gameplay features, because the industry has tunnel vision because of WoW's freak success.
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
That is just silly. It is a free world. No one is forcing anyone to do somethign they don't want.
All casuals are doing, is to buy/pay for the games they like. Are you crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
This is false. The entireity of america is coming to this. States can't even make laws anymore without federal givernment getting involved.
Everyone wants to force themselves and their beliefs on everyone else. It's becomming the american way.
So you [are] crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
... And WoW being "more fun" is the hook that retains players, it's not directly what attracts new players. The main draw of players was from Blizzard's advertising and ability to draw from their rabidly loyal fanbase to try a game in a genre they've never even heard of before. This coupled with their strong marketing arm, were able to attract players to try the game that had never even played, let alone seen or heard of, an MMO before.
...
REally off the bat wow sold less copys than WAR did, does that mean war had better advertising and a more rabbid fanbase?
Lets be honest wow did have some support from beign known, but many mmorpg makers have this. What happened was the game was fun, and people told other people, yo dog im playing wow its the shiznits. And so they went out and bought it also. And so on, and becuase the game is acctually fun and entertianing , people keep playing and inviting more people to play. ETc.
Same thing happens with almost any produced that become main stream. Automobile, easy ford didn't invent the first one, other had some that one could claim were supperior to fords, however, he made them atas price and fuctionality useful for large precentage of the population. Im sure at that time people were saying QQ but the old cars were better. They may have been right in many ways, but they were not better for most. And while advertisign can help you sell a product, better products sell themselves.
Most WoW players have never seen, let alone tried, a game like EQ or UO. Your personal view that EQ and UO weren't enjoyable is your personal opinion. If you actually played these games for any length of time, then I can respect your view. You do not however, speak for the millions of other MMO players that have never seen, let alone played, EQ or UO. For all you know, a good portion of them may have actually enjoyed those games as much, if not more so, than WoW. Sadly, they'll never get a chance to try a game with similar gameplay features, because the industry has tunnel vision because of WoW's freak success.
They may have hated it also, i mean. Why isn't DF doing great, it is old school in most aspects? EQ2 has free trials why isn't it gainign ground? Easy a few peopel tried them , very few stayed to play because they felt it a lesser game than wow and so they DIDN"T tell their friend yo scro this stuff is great lets play it, and so on. Basically, if those old types of games were no longer availible id agree but those old games still are present (while different, most similar to what wow players are used to and thus thats not a turn off, they like it) but they are simiply not as fun or entertaining and thats the purpose for those players to be playing.
Its not nariuss's personal view its simple logic.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Comments
Actually guilds like that do exist. I've been part of three guild like that in WoW over the last 5 years. People willing to help you just because they can adn willing to come help you if your relly needed help.
What I found out is that guilds based solely on progression or grinding will fall apart if the carrot at the end of the road is removed. Without the reward and/or status symbol people will take a look around and find that they might not actually like the people they play with.
My error, I do understand the difference though. You are correct they are not making mmorpgs, they are making mmo's. Which is our loss.
The day WoW decided it wanted people with money more than people who play games.
After Blizzard decided dumbing down an Everquest ultra ultra light even more and polluting our former great genre even more, with tons of non MMORPG players.
MMORPG's should be a virtual world not just a game.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
While that is true to some extent, it wasn't the prevailing motive of the majority of players as much so as it is today, in my opinion. The fact that the great communities only existed in our minds is still quite valid, since they no longer exist (to many of us) in any games currently available. Even the old games have changed to fit the motives of the new generation. The communities used to exist to serve the players. Now they are just a tool to be used when necessary. Transparent.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The "G" is MMORPG stands for "game". A virtual world with nothing to do is BORING. MMORPGs are entertainment. If it is not fun, there is no reason for it to exist.
Well, i was there since BC. It was SILLY when only TWO percentage of the player base have seen the inside of Sunwell. That is a monumental waste of resources.
NOW is MUCH better. You don't have to sweat it until you play hard mode raid. In fact, go take a look at wow-heroes.com, NOT all the guilds have cleared ICC 25 .. although more have now than back in the old days. This is an IMPROVEMENT to MOST players because they have more content to play with.
And if you really want a challenge, go kill LK in hard mode 25, or play the arena.
True, but the mmos before WOW were fun to many players, just not as fun to as many casual gamers who now make up the lions share of the market, and there in lies the rub.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
People have different views of what's entertaining.
Some people enjoy building models, collecting stamps, etc, which many people would consider "work" to do. To those who enjoy them however, they're hobbies.
That's exactly what the people asking for virtual world MMOs are looking for, an MMO that's worthy of being a hobby, not just brainless instant gratification.
Apparently the majority of gamers don't have the patience or attention span required of a hobby.
That's just a difference of opinion which can ultimately be negotiated. However, the key to this entire sorry argument is that the 'old school' player think they are better than the casuals and the casual laughing themselves silly when told of this.
Wow, really? That is your entire take on what we were talking about? Talk about a limited ability to understand. I think that there is a FPS missing you.
Your hobby will never get any respect if you do not respect other people's hobbies. Just imagine the reaction of the stamp collectors if the model plane builders told them that stamp collecting was brainless instant gratification because the stamp collectors did not really do any 'work'.
Which is my point...
Most of today's MMO gamers don't even consider MMOS hobbies. They only consider them a way to unwind at the end of the day without having to think or put much commitment into them. In other words, they're casual gamers, not hobbyists, and they treat the games as nothing more than casual games. They can't even percieve of a reality where some people actually enjoy participating in a virtual world. The idea is completely foriegn to them.
I can respect them having their own games to play, so long as it doesn't trample over my hobby. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. The casual gamers wandered into the genre and started complaining that they didn't want to take part in the hobby, they just wanted to show up and have their hands held down a themepark ride of a game.
And when I talk about casual, I don't necessarly mean people who don't play much. I'm talking about people who are completely put off by the slightest hint of putting any actual effort or higher level thought into an MMO. These are the people who want instant gratification, quest helpers and guides telling them how to level every step of the way. These are people who should in all likelyhood, not be playing MMOs in general, because what they want contradicts with many of the main purposes of the MMO genre.
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
Torik, I'm not happy myself with what some of my fellow Sandbox players are saying about your game style. Yeah, I get the "arrogance" thing you see. But it's really from frustration, not a hate for WoW clones.
But "Sandbox" games allow for just as much "casual" game play as your WoW clones, where the players generally hammer their heads against a brick wall to race through levels to get to end game, but don't have to. So, they both have hardcore play, or casual play. That's not really the issue, the issue is what the game play is like. We want a world, you're happy with scripted direction.
Once upon a time....
I can respect that some people just want easy games. I just don't respect that they would rather force the industry to bend to their whim, rather than just choose games that suits their playstyle better.
That is just silly. It is a free world. No one is forcing anyone to do somethign they don't want.
All casuals are doing, is to buy/pay for the games they like. Are you crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
I'm talking about the players from the older MMOs that complained to no end about it 'being too hard' to do anything.
UO and EQ were pushed into easymode before WoW was released, for example. Why? Because of the vocal minority at the time, complaining that things took "too much effort" or was "too hard".
And sure, newer MMOs have tried to clone WoW success, but look where the majority of them have ended up. They're husks of games that are so shallow they can't even keep the attention of all but a few. So really, the arguement that 'casual is in' is based mainly upon the success of WOW. Which itself is a freak abberition of success, based mainly around Blizzard's ability to overhype and market it's own company and franchise image to lure people who aren't MMO gamers into their game.
The majority of those new to the MMO scene are in it because of WoW. They have no other reference or experience to go by, so WoW sets the standards for everything to them. Which is extremely sad because they are ignorant of all of the good features that were in older MMOs that the latest generation of MMOs, WoW included, outright lack.
That may be true, but there are plenty of old schoolers who are well aware that times change and that we are just different. It's the same when some casual player comes in and says something to the effect of, "we are the majority so you don't really matter to the developers". Most probably know that is not true, nor is it true that all casual players just want things to be easy.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Ah but Cerideth you are making the classic mistake - Assuming that how you define something is how others define something or is the actual definition.
What you have described to be casual gamers is what I call a hobbyist (sp) and is exactly how I and many I know approach all their hobbies. We define a hobby as something that we use to relax at the end of the day with, to have fun with, sometimes to think with and other times just to unwind with. Thats what I do with MMO's, modelling, painting, and building. They are things I enjoy, things I like to do and at times all involve thought and carefull planning and at times all involve just grunt work. So to me and many of these other people that you say are not hobbyists, we say we are and we are treating it like we would any hobby.
And realistically the number of people who define casual by your definition ( I'm talking about people who are completely put off by the slightest hint of putting any actual effort or higher level thought into an MMO. These are the people who want instant gratification, quest helpers and guides telling them how to level every step of the way. These are people who should in all likelyhood, not be playing MMOs in general, because what they want contradicts with many of the main purposes of the MMO genre) are likely a very very very small part of any game population. I've actually never met anyone who wasn't willing to put in some work along the way, or some thought along the way and I am by no means a hard core gamer. I can't imagine a dev taking those people too seriously because IMO anyway their extreme demographic is just too low to warrant any attention - I would hope that is the case anyway. Just like the extreme hardcore on the other side.
Venge Sunsoar
Answer: The day they invented Internet Porn, my friend.
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
This is false. The entireity of america is coming to this. States can't even make laws anymore without federal givernment getting involved.
Everyone wants to force themselves and their beliefs on everyone else. It's becomming the american way.
I am an oldschool player and I certainly don't think i'm 'better' then the 'casuals'. But I don't have to like what their introduction has done to the mmo market anymore then they have to like FFA pvp sandboxes with full looting and skill grinds. The mmo market has evolved, thats healthy and good for the genre ultimately and it will continue to evolve as the market changes, but it''s undeniable the that games have been 'toned' down to appeal to an ever larger market base.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Everyone has the right to complain. That is called the first admendment right in the US.
And by WOW numbers, i highly doubt it is a vocal "minority", more like a super majority.
And the ONLY reason why WOW attracts so many new players is that because it is MORE FUN than the old school stuff. I was there. EQ was a HORRIBLE grind. UO is just horrible .. ganging, clicking on rocks to level up mining, everyone a tank mage .... it will be a surprise if WOW did not attract more players.
I said the vocal minority for EQ and UO, I wasn't talking about WoW.
And WoW being "more fun" is the hook that retains players, it's not directly what attracts new players. The main draw of players was from Blizzard's advertising and ability to draw from their rabidly loyal fanbase to try a game in a genre they've never even heard of before. This coupled with their strong marketing arm, were able to attract players to try the game that had never even played, let alone seen or heard of, an MMO before.
Most WoW players have never seen, let alone tried, a game like EQ or UO. Your personal view that EQ and UO weren't enjoyable is your personal opinion. If you actually played these games for any length of time, then I can respect your view. You do not however, speak for the millions of other MMO players that have never seen, let alone played, EQ or UO. For all you know, a good portion of them may have actually enjoyed those games as much, if not more so, than WoW. Sadly, they'll never get a chance to try a game with similar gameplay features, because the industry has tunnel vision because of WoW's freak success.
So you [are] crying over the fact that they outnumber you 1000 to 1 and devlopers are paying notice?
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine