Hey thanks! This is more in line with the quality I've come to expect from your previous posts. Sorry for being a prick. I guess I got a bit defensive after Uquipu's and Eunichmaker's posts. As to being "tired of seeing th same old posts" I completely understand. I was about as unintersted in SgtFrog's post about vanity items yesterday.
Then I asked myself if maybe I could come up with an argument that hasn't been posed yet. Hence the creation of this thread.
I won't argue that the old MMORPGs were perfect. I agree there was some tediousness in all of them. But I do empahitcally disagree such things can be made better in modern MMOs just by handing or selling us all an "I WIN" button.
Which MMORPG's are selling/Handing out these IWIN buttons?I mena evne in WoW currently you do have to put in some work for gear even if it is extremely easy compared to vanilla WoW.o you mena f2p titles that sell advantages and gear?That I do not liek either and so do not play such games.
I would agree that removing the tediousness should not equate to removing the challenge or effort required just make it fun to do.
Yeah sorry, I meant the cash shop games that allow you to buy game effecting items.
I agree with you that Wow still takes some effort to play but no where near as much as when it started. When I got my first Wow character (a rogue) to 60 it felt very rewarding, and the early levels were a blast. After BC gearing up took far more time but that was due to all the pointless faction grinding they added. Now THAT is what I call tedium. And of course now days you can get to 80 almost in your sleep.
Little side note: You know I think its funny when posts like this one get accused of being Wow hating. I don't hate Wow, I just hate what has been done to it. If the game were a movie franchise, modern Wow would be the second Star Wars trilogy. Or mabye a better example, if anyone else is old enough to remember them, Highlander and the bafflingly bad Highlander two.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
After playing almost all available MMOs out there (p2p mainly but not only), I have come to the conclusion that the only true adventure you'll ever have is in a real pen-and-paper old-school draw-the-maps-yourself soda-and-popcorn invite-the-village-idiot-too Dungeons & Dragons.
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
In the days of Everquest I always used to say that the gameplay found in MMOs was fun for a short time, but the reason people stuck around so long was the community. Now that game developers have focused more on improving aspects of gameplay rather than aspects of the community, for better or worse, the opposite is in effect.
I still don't think this lends to games tending to the "instant gratification crowd" because I don't believe there is such a crowd. As I explained earlier, video games are for fun. They're nothing more than a hobby, which in an of itself, is just a form of escapism. Many gamers are working teenagers, college students, or fully grown adults with full time jobs and a family to take care of. These gamers "work" enough in the real world, and the last thing they want to do is "work" inside of a video game. The problem with a lot of the older MMORPGs is that they were nothing more than grinds. When you strip away the community --the human element-- you're left with a shell of a game world with little else to do than to go out and grind mobs for hours on end for no other purpose than to level up your character to grind on even stronger mobs. The communities of games like UO, DAoC, and Everquest quite literally made the game.
Modern MMORPGs have done a way with a lot of the tedium of the previous generation of MMORPGs, and I think that's where a lot of the "instant gratification" rhetoric originates, but I challenge those who promote that ideology to actually come up with some examples of said instant gratification. Sure, games have gotten easier, but that's just a sign of the times. Games were getting easier and easier long before Everquest and UO were the kings of the MMORPG market. Ironically, we had a similar crowd crying over games being too easy back then just as we do now, but the fact is, while games have had a lot of the challenge and tedium removed, there still isn't an "instant gratification" game, and there's challenge in every game if you know where to look for it. A good case in point is World of Warcraft. Like the guy in the video I linked said, getting gear still requires a time commitment and isn't really any "easier" than it ever was. In fact, it may even be harder when you consider how easily a few poor players could get lost in the shuffle of 38 other skilled players in one of vanilla WoW's original 40 man raids. It was much easier to slack off and to not perform when you had so many people to make up for your lack of effort. In current WoW's 25 man raids, this is evident as well. In raids like the Blood Council, there may be 8 other ranged DPS classes around you to keep the orbs from hitting the floor whereas in 10-man there may only be one more, which probably can't prevent all the orbs from dropping on his or her own.
The badge system is yet another instance of how WoW has been made a bit more casual but not so much easier. Now, every time you kill a boss in a raid, you get "something" of value even if it's just a few frost badges. Those frost badges can then be turned in for raid quality gear. It's far less time consuming and less tedious, but it still fosters a sense of accomplishment. In essence, you still have to work for what you get. Nothing is handed to you on a silver platter. It takes dedication and effort to get that gear. The only difference is that in vanilla WoW it took a bit more dedication and a bit more effort. Vanilla WoW was not any more difficult than current WoW. The sooner those who cry "instant gratification" realize that dedication and effort do not equal difficulty, the sooner we might start working towards some theoretical alternative to the carotte on a stick dog and pony shows that are modern MMORPGs.
I'm not sure I completely agree with you, but you do bring up some very valid points. Its a bit like the nostalgia and rose tinted glasses arguments. While I feel they are very overused by posters on this site, and are overly simplistic to explain the complete sense alienation I see in many of my fellow MMO veterans, both arguments still have validity.
Also sorry again for our previous misunderstanding. Sometimes my sense of humor leaves a lot to be desired.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
In my opinion it was several months before The Burning Crusade launched.
I agree with this ^
The whole instant gratification trend is flourishing in many aspects of today's society as well, not just in games.
OP your name, avatar and sig crack me up. Great charecter from a great movie.
LOL, thanks. I got the idea from a friend of mine who was complaining about his new commanding officer who he says has an accent that is both bizzare and hard to understand. He said "He reminds of that guy from the movie Johnny Dangerously, you know the one they deported to Sweden even though he wasn't from there?" I love your They Live sig pic as well. Another classic blast from the past.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
Some are born filthy rich. They do not want to 'work' for their luxury; they just want to pay for it. Same goes for games.I also want to be on 'pair' with my online gamers. I would like to pay for it.
I see no problem as long as I am having fun. Why should other people care so much about my own fun? Shouldnt they bother more about themself? Or, does their fun go down when I am having more fun i shorter time?
This discussion puzzles me, as I actually give a damn about how or why other people are having fun. I care about me, and my friends, not the neighbour down the street.
If I may ask; is your fun being ruined if you see some filthy rich snotty leet brat ingame?
In the days of Everquest I always used to say that the gameplay found in MMOs was fun for a short time, but the reason people stuck around so long was the community. Now that game developers have focused more on improving aspects of gameplay rather than aspects of the community, for better or worse, the opposite is in effect.
I still don't think this lends to games tending to the "instant gratification crowd" because I don't believe there is such a crowd. As I explained earlier, video games are for fun. They're nothing more than a hobby, which in an of itself, is just a form of escapism. Many gamers are working teenagers, college students, or fully grown adults with full time jobs and a family to take care of. These gamers "work" enough in the real world, and the last thing they want to do is "work" inside of a video game. The problem with a lot of the older MMORPGs is that they were nothing more than grinds. When you strip away the community --the human element-- you're left with a shell of a game world with little else to do than to go out and grind mobs for hours on end for no other purpose than to level up your character to grind on even stronger mobs. The communities of games like UO, DAoC, and Everquest quite literally made the game.
Modern MMORPGs have done a way with a lot of the tedium of the previous generation of MMORPGs, and I think that's where a lot of the "instant gratification" rhetoric originates, but I challenge those who promote that ideology to actually come up with some examples of said instant gratification. Sure, games have gotten easier, but that's just a sign of the times. Games were getting easier and easier long before Everquest and UO were the kings of the MMORPG market. Ironically, we had a similar crowd crying over games being too easy back then just as we do now, but the fact is, while games have had a lot of the challenge and tedium removed, there still isn't an "instant gratification" game, and there's challenge in every game if you know where to look for it. A good case in point is World of Warcraft. Like the guy in the video I linked said, getting gear still requires a time commitment and isn't really any "easier" than it ever was. In fact, it may even be harder when you consider how easily a few poor players could get lost in the shuffle of 38 other skilled players in one of vanilla WoW's original 40 man raids. It was much easier to slack off and to not perform when you had so many people to make up for your lack of effort. In current WoW's 25 man raids, this is evident as well. In raids like the Blood Council, there may be 8 other ranged DPS classes around you to keep the orbs from hitting the floor whereas in 10-man there may only be one more, which probably can't prevent all the orbs from dropping on his or her own.
The badge system is yet another instance of how WoW has been made a bit more casual but not so much easier. Now, every time you kill a boss in a raid, you get "something" of value even if it's just a few frost badges. Those frost badges can then be turned in for raid quality gear. It's far less time consuming and less tedious, but it still fosters a sense of accomplishment. In essence, you still have to work for what you get. Nothing is handed to you on a silver platter. It takes dedication and effort to get that gear. The only difference is that in vanilla WoW it took a bit more dedication and a bit more effort. Vanilla WoW was not any more difficult than current WoW. The sooner those who cry "instant gratification" realize that dedication and effort do not equal difficulty, the sooner we might start working towards some theoretical alternative to the carotte on a stick dog and pony shows that are modern MMORPGs.
I completely agree with you on this, and frequently use much of what you said in my arguments supporting games developed today.
And people today, who say that games are getting too easy, especially those back in the day of UO and EQ1, are forgetting a key piece of information. You are all better now then you were then. You have been playing games for years upon years and thus, content that at one time may have seemed more challenging, will not be as challenging too you. Anything that anyone does for 10 years straight will be less challenging now then it was when you started. And you can not equate the fact that you needed 200 people and 16 consecutive hours to take down a boss a challenge. All that equates to is a time sync. And if you want to improve your player base, you have to reduce time syncs so more people can play video games as a hobby, without sacrficing family and work.
If a game were to come out and people were to get to endgame in one day, and by people I mean 60%+ of the population of that game, then you could say its instant gratification. If a guild goes into a dungeone and beats it the first time, with no wipes, then thats instant gratification. But as it stands now, most content that comes out has been beta tested by players, posted on the internet for strategies and before the guild even enters the instance for the first time, they know what to expect. That is not a fault with the devs, thats a fault with players and guilds who want to know whats coming, instead of learning whats coming. When the day comes that a fresh group of newly maxed toons pug a raid level instance and beat it in 2 hours with no deaths, then you can cry instant gratification.
After playing almost all available MMOs out there (p2p mainly but not only), I have come to the conclusion that the only true adventure you'll ever have is in a real pen-and-paper old-school draw-the-maps-yourself soda-and-popcorn invite-the-village-idiot-too Dungeons & Dragons.
I fear I have to agree with you on this. Sadly as you grow older and you and your group have to take on more and more real life responsibilities, group gatherings become a thing of the past. Hell, my old circle of friends has scattered to the four winds. Most of us aren't even on the same continent anymore.
I apologise for bumping my own thread so much today. I tried copying and pasting all of these discussions into one big post but the editor went haywire and dumped about twenty minutes worth of typing. So I'm sticking to the safer "one post at a time" method.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
"Either table top or MMO the biggest reason to play is to interact with the game world and advance our characters."
Not necessarily...
If you have not done so — or have not done so in a while — check out Bartle's paper on different types of MUD players. Although it's well over a decade old, it still holds very true and ought to be required reading for anyone who wants to have a serious discussion about MMO players and their motivations.
If you ask me, it's not a problem of Instant Gratification versus Adventure. A lot of it has to do with information and communication. The Spade section of the playerbase has shrivelled down to a tiny fraction while the Diamonds and Hearts have exploded. It's hard to be a Spade on the internet. More accurately, it's hard to be a Spade in the World of Add-oncraft. As soon as one person (One person! Among millions!) figures out every last detail about a particular game mechanic and builds an add-on to lay those secrets out flat, there is no longer a point to exploring that feature. Why bother? Some other guy you have never met in game, who doesn't play on your server, and who maybe stopped playing three months ago already figured it out for you, and it is now required knowledge. That makes for an astoundingly fantastic gaming experience for that one Spade and a pretty dismal experience for the rest.
It's hard to fault game developers for this. Nothing is secret anymore; how can they code games that cater to Spades? Or Clubs, for that matter? The trend towards games becoming filled with just Diamonds and Hearts seems inevitable due to the demand for instant communication... free exchange of information. The Age of the Wiki is what hurt MMOs the most.
Some are born filthy rich. They do not want to 'work' for their luxury; they just want to pay for it. Same goes for games.I also want to be on 'pair' with my online gamers. I would like to pay for it.
I see no problem as long as I am having fun. Why should other people care so much about my own fun? Shouldnt they bother more about themself? Or, does their fun go down when I am having more fun i shorter time?
This discussion puzzles me, as I actually give a damn about how or why other people are having fun. I care about me, and my friends, not the neighbour down the street.
If I may ask; is your fun being ruined if you see some filthy rich snotty leet brat ingame?
If a games cash shop negatively effects the way a game company produces content for the players who don't use it ( at least in games with a set monthly fee), then yes.
If players being able to buy items, even vanity items, means less game interaction between players since people don't have to do quests or raids for such items, then again yes.
And in the extreme case, if a game has a cash shop that allows players to purchase items that directly effect their characters power, such as weapons and armor and such, and non-cash shop users have no alterative way to gain items of the same value, then most emphatically YES.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
AHHH make YOUR POSTS SHORTER, THEY DELAY MY GRATIFICATION.
No i liked your post , it was cool.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
The game companies are not to blame for all this IMO. All they ever were doing in the first place is a job to make some money and put bread on their tables. They really are not at fault. If I was a stockholder in their companies I would fire the Devs if they did not maximize game profits.
That said all these crap shop games will have to devolve to the point that they are not the most profitable way to do business before it changes. It will have to reach a saturation point. Eventually we will see games advertised as "Monthly Subs Only- No Cash Shops" just to get get players to play them. Probably be a few years down the road and also about the time they figure out how to beat gold sellers.
"Either table top or MMO the biggest reason to play is to interact with the game world and advance our characters."
Not necessarily...
If you have not done so — or have not done so in a while — check out Bartle's paper on different types of MUD players. Although it's well over a decade old, it still holds very true and ought to be required reading for anyone who wants to have a serious discussion about MMO players and their motivations.
If you ask me, it's not a problem of Instant Gratification versus Adventure. A lot of it has to do with information and communication. The Spade section of the playerbase has shrivelled down to a tiny fraction while the Diamonds and Hearts have exploded. It's hard to be a Spade on the internet. More accurately, it's hard to be a Spade in the World of Add-oncraft. As soon as one person (One person! Among millions!) figures out every last detail about a particular game mechanic and builds an add-on to lay those secrets out flat, there is no longer a point to exploring that feature. Why bother? Some other guy you have never met in game, who doesn't play on your server, and who maybe stopped playing three months ago already figured it out for you, and it is now required knowledge. That makes for an astoundingly fantastic gaming experience for that one Spade and a pretty dismal experience for the rest.
It's hard to fault game developers for this. Nothing is secret anymore; how can they code games that cater to Spades? Or Clubs, for that matter? The trend towards games becoming filled with just Diamonds and Hearts seems inevitable due to the demand for instant communication... free exchange of information. The Age of the Wiki is what hurt MMOs the most.
I want to disagree with you, honestly mainly because I desperatly want what you have stated not to be true. Your point certainly goes a long way in explaining why I haven't been garnering any where near as much enjoyment from both single player and MMO games as I used to for the last few years.
That is an excellent article and I feel your argument has quite a bit of relevance. However, and this might be unfairly taking your point out context, if this is the case, then what is the point of playing a static MMO at all? It seems that players would behave like this..
"Hey that level ten guy just soloed Hogger!"
"Really? Oh well. Lets not bother trying it ourselves then."
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
I think the video game business itself became too big. I think video games can be compare to movies now : most of them are bad and people create them with cash in mind. I don't know if my expectations are too high or if the quality of games and movies decreased, but damn i almost hate them all now. Sure there are a few exceptions and us, MMO players, are waiting for these.
I really hope that those ''exceptions'' are gonna be among titles coming in 2011 (TERA, SWTOR, GW2, RIFT,etc.)
The short and sweet, as far as mmos go anyway: just about when they became mainstream.. aka when wow come out, as much as that sounds like a broken record
The game companies are not to blame for all this IMO. All they ever were doing in the first place is a job to make some money and put bread on their tables. They really are not at fault. If I was a stockholder in their companies I would fire the Devs if they did not maximize game profits.
That said all these crap shop games will have to devolve to the point that they are not the most profitable way to do business before it changes. It will have to reach a saturation point. Eventually we will see games advertised as "Monthly Subs Only- No Cash Shops" just to get get players to play them. Probably be a few years down the road and also about the time they figure out how to beat gold sellers.
I think your icon just gave me flashbacks. That or a mini-seizure.
Moving on. I think the game companies are often at fault. When they are so shortsighted as to provide a cash shop that negatively impacts the gameplay of those who do not use that cash shop, they put their game at risk of dying a very early death.
However, small fluff items in a cash shop won't stop me from playing a game. I've spent the past week crafting a cargo bike for my lvl 16 Fallen Earth main, using a second character to gather her materials. Even with offline crafting, it's taking a lot longer than I thought it would, and I should have waited a few more levels. Or maybe a lot more. It's hardly instant gratification, but I'm having fun with it anyway. The two cash shop items available in the game don't affect my enjoyment of this at all. However, if anyone could pay a few dollars and buy the same bike I'm crafting from the cash shop, that would affect my enjoyment, simply because it would feel less like an adventure than a pointless waste of time, easily circumvented by spending a few extra dollars. So I do see what the OP is saying.
And it seems pointless to me when people use a leveling service, buy ingame currency with real money (except maybe in EVE, where the length of time you've been building up skills matters much more than how much ISK you have in your wallet), or spend real money on cash shop items that allow them to surpass non cash shop users in pvp and pve. I don't understand why those people would bother playing in the first place. If the game is so flawed that earning in game currency, leveling, and perfecting your pve and pvp skills bores you to the point of paying real money to skip it, then play something better!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Item sales. I mean how much more instant can you get. No game play required, just buy it.
Quests as Pez Dispensers. Just look for the symbol above the NPCs head. They're even marked on your map.
Bonus XP for turning in quests that you already ran and defeated.
Items for turning in quests. Although I think it's good to have rewards for doing things in any game world, this relates more to the Pez Dispenser idea and ease, as well as giving you exactly what you need to move on to the next step in the connect the dots Pez Dispensers.
Zone levels. You don't have to search for much, or search far. It's all in your zone, according to your level, all handy-dandy wrapped for you. There's exceptions to this, of course, just generally speaking.
Badges. You don't have to earn respect of other players for doing things. You don't have to become well known by others. It's right there on a tally sheet, instantly added and no one need know what you did otehr than look at that. Not totally 100% bad, just sayin'.
Levels. Big numbers. Big dings. Happens fairly quickly, especially following quests and getting bonus XP.
Items. Big numbers. Big dings. Happens with every quest and with every "special" drop.
Instances. Don't want to deal with other players in a massively online game? Instances just for you.
Way Points/Markers. Just go here for what's been clearly defined for you.
Auction houses. Hey, no need to deal directly with other players in your Massive Online game. Just go here for neatly separated and ordered trades.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
Now, don't get me wrong. All those things are good for a WoW clone style game. Some few of them would be good for a sandbox game if done to fit that style.
Effects to the game. These things are all perfect for a game where you are the focus. Where whatever else happens means nothing to you. Where other player mean nothing to you. That's fine for this kind of game. But if you want a game that promotes social interaction, feels more "worldly", and is full of adventure and importance from the world perspective, these things as they are don't lend to that sort of experience.
This is not a knock on WoW or clones. It's a look at the causes and effects for those who want that "different" gaming experience. That excitement of being in a world. That immersion. That importance of the world and how it affects you, and you it. That massive social interaction interacting in the world making stories feel like they actually happened. Making other players important to you, and visa versa.
In the days of Everquest I always used to say that the gameplay found in MMOs was fun for a short time, but the reason people stuck around so long was the community. Now that game developers have focused more on improving aspects of gameplay rather than aspects of the community, for better or worse, the opposite is in effect.
I still don't think this lends to games tending to the "instant gratification crowd" because I don't believe there is such a crowd. As I explained earlier, video games are for fun. They're nothing more than a hobby, which in an of itself, is just a form of escapism. Many gamers are working teenagers, college students, or fully grown adults with full time jobs and a family to take care of. These gamers "work" enough in the real world, and the last thing they want to do is "work" inside of a video game. The problem with a lot of the older MMORPGs is that they were nothing more than grinds. When you strip away the community --the human element-- you're left with a shell of a game world with little else to do than to go out and grind mobs for hours on end for no other purpose than to level up your character to grind on even stronger mobs. The communities of games like UO, DAoC, and Everquest quite literally made the game.
Modern MMORPGs have done a way with a lot of the tedium of the previous generation of MMORPGs, and I think that's where a lot of the "instant gratification" rhetoric originates, but I challenge those who promote that ideology to actually come up with some examples of said instant gratification. Sure, games have gotten easier, but that's just a sign of the times. Games were getting easier and easier long before Everquest and UO were the kings of the MMORPG market. Ironically, we had a similar crowd crying over games being too easy back then just as we do now, but the fact is, while games have had a lot of the challenge and tedium removed, there still isn't an "instant gratification" game, and there's challenge in every game if you know where to look for it. A good case in point is World of Warcraft. Like the guy in the video I linked said, getting gear still requires a time commitment and isn't really any "easier" than it ever was. In fact, it may even be harder when you consider how easily a few poor players could get lost in the shuffle of 38 other skilled players in one of vanilla WoW's original 40 man raids. It was much easier to slack off and to not perform when you had so many people to make up for your lack of effort. In current WoW's 25 man raids, this is evident as well. In raids like the Blood Council, there may be 8 other ranged DPS classes around you to keep the orbs from hitting the floor whereas in 10-man there may only be one more, which probably can't prevent all the orbs from dropping on his or her own.
The badge system is yet another instance of how WoW has been made a bit more casual but not so much easier. Now, every time you kill a boss in a raid, you get "something" of value even if it's just a few frost badges. Those frost badges can then be turned in for raid quality gear. It's far less time consuming and less tedious, but it still fosters a sense of accomplishment. In essence, you still have to work for what you get. Nothing is handed to you on a silver platter. It takes dedication and effort to get that gear. The only difference is that in vanilla WoW it took a bit more dedication and a bit more effort. Vanilla WoW was not any more difficult than current WoW. The sooner those who cry "instant gratification" realize that dedication and effort do not equal difficulty, the sooner we might start working towards some theoretical alternative to the carotte on a stick dog and pony shows that are modern MMORPGs.
I completely agree with you on this, and frequently use much of what you said in my arguments supporting games developed today.
And people today, who say that games are getting too easy, especially those back in the day of UO and EQ1, are forgetting a key piece of information. You are all better now then you were then. You have been playing games for years upon years and thus, content that at one time may have seemed more challenging, will not be as challenging too you. Anything that anyone does for 10 years straight will be less challenging now then it was when you started. And you can not equate the fact that you needed 200 people and 16 consecutive hours to take down a boss a challenge. All that equates to is a time sync. And if you want to improve your player base, you have to reduce time syncs so more people can play video games as a hobby, without sacrficing family and work.
If a game were to come out and people were to get to endgame in one day, and by people I mean 60%+ of the population of that game, then you could say its instant gratification. If a guild goes into a dungeone and beats it the first time, with no wipes, then thats instant gratification. But as it stands now, most content that comes out has been beta tested by players, posted on the internet for strategies and before the guild even enters the instance for the first time, they know what to expect. That is not a fault with the devs, thats a fault with players and guilds who want to know whats coming, instead of learning whats coming. When the day comes that a fresh group of newly maxed toons pug a raid level instance and beat it in 2 hours with no deaths, then you can cry instant gratification.
I disagree with you just because we have been playing games for 10+ years dosnt mean it got easier for us cause we are better players its because the games are easier 100% easier.
I will bring up Everquest again in old days of EQ in dreadlands at the north wall looking for a group because you can not solo any normal mob in the zone because no matter how good you were it was just to hard to do it and was much more simplified by the fact we needed a group to do it. Now with that said nothing was easy at all it took month and months for us to get our epic weapons.
I played pre BC WoW and to me it was still very easy because there was no death peanalty no corpse runs no risk vs reward system at all and alot of the easy mode i see in todays game they all follow the same formula i love when there is a death penalty because it makes you think twice before you go someplace where you shouldnt be because you are not experienced or to low of a level . Kithikor forest was the perfect example of this at night running through there was a nightmare and took a exact science to get through to get to highpass or rivervale. Nowadays you can run through almost any zone and avoid mostly everything there is because well its easy.
To the fact that most ppl did grow up is not a good point either back then most of us had familly's and kid's and we still played hours at a time getting things done it seems like forgive me if i am being rude or offensive to players but it seems as if the players now are lazy again it falls into this risk vs reward system i have tryed every old raid zone in EQ and WoW in DAOC AO and WoW is so dam easy compared to the older ones.
In the old games raid zones especially EQ it took skill patience and working together to take on mobs and im not talking because you neede 75 ppl to raid a boss im saying how infact hard it really was evan when planes of power came out when they added a flag system where you needed to complete zones to get further in your flags in order to get to the higer tier zones . You had to beat plane of storms valor justice nightmare disease in order to unlock Bastion of thunger crypt of decay hedges and etc you had to keep playing in order to finally get to Plane of time A then plane of time B where once you finished it it was a sence of hey i worked hard for this and i earned the right to be here.
Again im sorry if i come across ignorant or rude but what i have seen with MMO's the industy took a turn for the worse i mean working my rear off for a year to ger my Rangers Epic and i mean a year it took me when i finally did finish it i was so happy excited and i felt really good not because i finished it and i didnt have to do it anymore but because i accomplished something very good .
it go's back to the corpse runs as well some ppl say why would that be fun i mean you ran through a zone or zones completly naked trying to desperatly get back your body so you can regain all your equiptment. To us we took the risk and died so we learned not to do that again or in fact be more caution and more aware of where we were. I personly remeber on my Shaman in EQ1 going to the hole zone and walking down and trying to get to a spawn point of where a peice of my epic droped i was level 57 at the time i got to the spawn point and got attacked and died down there at the bottom of the zone took me 1 hour to get there and now in fact i ded i had to go back there to get my stuff when it was all said and done i died another 20 times and deleveled form level 57 or 56 almost back to 55 did i got mad i deleveled sure who wouldnt we worked so hard for that leved wo wouldnt be mad but in the end who's fault was it mine because i knew what the risk was and i still took it.
The leveling because way to easy and fast in todays standards of MMO's it took months and months and months and months in older games to level hell, level 51 to 52 took me a month to get in EQ1 and thats playing everyday 4-6 hours a day nowadays i can go from level 1-80 in a month if not sooner depends on the game some ppl do it in a monh some a week. why dose the end game appeal to so many in the beginning i mean when you get there there isnt much to do untill the expension came out in newer mmo's. I find the journey to the endgame more rewarding then anything else only endgame that was worth anything was eq1 because there was so much of it you can play for years and still not see it all.
What im saying ultimatly its not like i said earlier its not that we are better more experienced players its that the games in fact really did get much easier.
Making other players important to you, and visa versa.
Said it before, I'll say it again. I feel sorry for game companies. The more important players are to each other, the more a game company is at the mercy of their game's community. If the community starts out bad or goes bad, the game is going to crash and burn much quicker and unalterably than it would in a game where soloing to max level, having instances all to one's self, and auction houses are possible.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Making other players important to you, and visa versa.
Said it before, I'll say it again. I feel sorry for game companies. The more important players are to each other, the more a game company is at the mercy of their game's community. If the community starts out bad or goes bad, the game is going to crash and burn much quicker and unalterably than it would in a game where soloing to max level, having instances all to one's self, and auction houses are possible.
So you have to design the game right so that that doesn't happen. I am not, and never was, a PKer. I think there are solutions to that problem. Just in case that's what you are refering to.
Making other players important to you, and visa versa.
Said it before, I'll say it again. I feel sorry for game companies. The more important players are to each other, the more a game company is at the mercy of their game's community. If the community starts out bad or goes bad, the game is going to crash and burn much quicker and unalterably than it would in a game where soloing to max level, having instances all to one's self, and auction houses are possible.
So you have to design the game right so that that doesn't happen. I am not, and never was, a PKer. I think there are solutions to that problem. Just in case that's what you are refering to.
I'm not referring just to PK, or to PK at all unless it's taken to extremes. I actually play on pvp servers when they're available. I'm referring to any game mechanic that puts you at the mercy of your fellow players. If you can't level and acquire items without coming into contact with other people, that's fine in an MMO, and possibly ideal, unless a significant number of the other people you share your gameworld with are people you would pay money to avoid (or possibly pay money to have eliminated).
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I would have to say shortly after the release of World of Warcraft. When mass droves of children entered the MMO market, then subsequenty found the messege bords and started demanding things. As these youngsters saw other players wearing things they felt, they should have too, or were entitles to, but did not want to put forth the adventure it took to achieve such things.
Adventure ended when themeparks began...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
It happened when people started buying computers instead of hunting gear.
People who want adventure tend to turn off the computer and go outside more often. Those that choose the computer have already chosen instant gratification and any choices beyond that basic one should not come as a shock.
And I'm not trying to insult the MMO players or imply that we're somehow cowards or don't ever go outside. I spend 30 hours a week playing MMOs, yet I still have a good job and i still have friends and a life and I've visited 20 countries on 4 continents so far and plan for a lot more. But the fact is that if i didn't want instant gratification, I'd probably use those 30 hours for hiking or photography or diving or something else that's an adventure.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
It happened when people started buying computers instead of hunting gear.
People who want adventure tend to turn off the computer and go outside more often. Those that choose the computer have already chosen instant gratification and any choices beyond that basic one should not come as a shock.
And I'm not trying to insult the MMO players or imply that we're somehow cowards or don't ever go outside. I spend 30 hours a week playing MMOs, yet I still have a good job and i still have friends and a life and I've visited 20 countries on 4 continents so far and plan for a lot more. But the fact is that if i didn't want instant gratification, I'd probably use those 30 hours for hiking or photography or diving or something else that's an adventure.
yeah right.... mankind adopted the instant gratification ways when they started to use the wheel didn't you know.
/sarcasm off
All I get from your post here is that you don't understand the working of a human brain what so ever...
Comments
I agree with this ^
The whole instant gratification trend is flourishing in many aspects of today's society as well.
OP your name, avatar and sig crack me up. Great charecter from a great movie.
Yeah sorry, I meant the cash shop games that allow you to buy game effecting items.
I agree with you that Wow still takes some effort to play but no where near as much as when it started. When I got my first Wow character (a rogue) to 60 it felt very rewarding, and the early levels were a blast. After BC gearing up took far more time but that was due to all the pointless faction grinding they added. Now THAT is what I call tedium. And of course now days you can get to 80 almost in your sleep.
Little side note: You know I think its funny when posts like this one get accused of being Wow hating. I don't hate Wow, I just hate what has been done to it. If the game were a movie franchise, modern Wow would be the second Star Wars trilogy. Or mabye a better example, if anyone else is old enough to remember them, Highlander and the bafflingly bad Highlander two.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
After playing almost all available MMOs out there (p2p mainly but not only), I have come to the conclusion that the only true adventure you'll ever have is in a real pen-and-paper old-school draw-the-maps-yourself soda-and-popcorn invite-the-village-idiot-too Dungeons & Dragons.
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
I'm not sure I completely agree with you, but you do bring up some very valid points. Its a bit like the nostalgia and rose tinted glasses arguments. While I feel they are very overused by posters on this site, and are overly simplistic to explain the complete sense alienation I see in many of my fellow MMO veterans, both arguments still have validity.
Also sorry again for our previous misunderstanding. Sometimes my sense of humor leaves a lot to be desired.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
LOL, thanks. I got the idea from a friend of mine who was complaining about his new commanding officer who he says has an accent that is both bizzare and hard to understand. He said "He reminds of that guy from the movie Johnny Dangerously, you know the one they deported to Sweden even though he wasn't from there?" I love your They Live sig pic as well. Another classic blast from the past.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
Instant gratification.
Some are born filthy rich. They do not want to 'work' for their luxury; they just want to pay for it. Same goes for games.I also want to be on 'pair' with my online gamers. I would like to pay for it.
I see no problem as long as I am having fun. Why should other people care so much about my own fun? Shouldnt they bother more about themself? Or, does their fun go down when I am having more fun i shorter time?
This discussion puzzles me, as I actually give a damn about how or why other people are having fun. I care about me, and my friends, not the neighbour down the street.
If I may ask; is your fun being ruined if you see some filthy rich snotty leet brat ingame?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I completely agree with you on this, and frequently use much of what you said in my arguments supporting games developed today.
And people today, who say that games are getting too easy, especially those back in the day of UO and EQ1, are forgetting a key piece of information. You are all better now then you were then. You have been playing games for years upon years and thus, content that at one time may have seemed more challenging, will not be as challenging too you. Anything that anyone does for 10 years straight will be less challenging now then it was when you started. And you can not equate the fact that you needed 200 people and 16 consecutive hours to take down a boss a challenge. All that equates to is a time sync. And if you want to improve your player base, you have to reduce time syncs so more people can play video games as a hobby, without sacrficing family and work.
If a game were to come out and people were to get to endgame in one day, and by people I mean 60%+ of the population of that game, then you could say its instant gratification. If a guild goes into a dungeone and beats it the first time, with no wipes, then thats instant gratification. But as it stands now, most content that comes out has been beta tested by players, posted on the internet for strategies and before the guild even enters the instance for the first time, they know what to expect. That is not a fault with the devs, thats a fault with players and guilds who want to know whats coming, instead of learning whats coming. When the day comes that a fresh group of newly maxed toons pug a raid level instance and beat it in 2 hours with no deaths, then you can cry instant gratification.
I fear I have to agree with you on this. Sadly as you grow older and you and your group have to take on more and more real life responsibilities, group gatherings become a thing of the past. Hell, my old circle of friends has scattered to the four winds. Most of us aren't even on the same continent anymore.
I apologise for bumping my own thread so much today. I tried copying and pasting all of these discussions into one big post but the editor went haywire and dumped about twenty minutes worth of typing. So I'm sticking to the safer "one post at a time" method.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
"Either table top or MMO the biggest reason to play is to interact with the game world and advance our characters."
Not necessarily...
If you have not done so — or have not done so in a while — check out Bartle's paper on different types of MUD players. Although it's well over a decade old, it still holds very true and ought to be required reading for anyone who wants to have a serious discussion about MMO players and their motivations.
If you ask me, it's not a problem of Instant Gratification versus Adventure. A lot of it has to do with information and communication. The Spade section of the playerbase has shrivelled down to a tiny fraction while the Diamonds and Hearts have exploded. It's hard to be a Spade on the internet. More accurately, it's hard to be a Spade in the World of Add-oncraft. As soon as one person (One person! Among millions!) figures out every last detail about a particular game mechanic and builds an add-on to lay those secrets out flat, there is no longer a point to exploring that feature. Why bother? Some other guy you have never met in game, who doesn't play on your server, and who maybe stopped playing three months ago already figured it out for you, and it is now required knowledge. That makes for an astoundingly fantastic gaming experience for that one Spade and a pretty dismal experience for the rest.
It's hard to fault game developers for this. Nothing is secret anymore; how can they code games that cater to Spades? Or Clubs, for that matter? The trend towards games becoming filled with just Diamonds and Hearts seems inevitable due to the demand for instant communication... free exchange of information. The Age of the Wiki is what hurt MMOs the most.
If a games cash shop negatively effects the way a game company produces content for the players who don't use it ( at least in games with a set monthly fee), then yes.
If players being able to buy items, even vanity items, means less game interaction between players since people don't have to do quests or raids for such items, then again yes.
And in the extreme case, if a game has a cash shop that allows players to purchase items that directly effect their characters power, such as weapons and armor and such, and non-cash shop users have no alterative way to gain items of the same value, then most emphatically YES.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
AHHH make YOUR POSTS SHORTER, THEY DELAY MY GRATIFICATION.
No i liked your post , it was cool.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Good work on the OP.
The game companies are not to blame for all this IMO. All they ever were doing in the first place is a job to make some money and put bread on their tables. They really are not at fault. If I was a stockholder in their companies I would fire the Devs if they did not maximize game profits.
That said all these crap shop games will have to devolve to the point that they are not the most profitable way to do business before it changes. It will have to reach a saturation point. Eventually we will see games advertised as "Monthly Subs Only- No Cash Shops" just to get get players to play them. Probably be a few years down the road and also about the time they figure out how to beat gold sellers.
*thumbs up* to the OP.
I long for a nice community, a decent game attached is just a bonus.
I want to disagree with you, honestly mainly because I desperatly want what you have stated not to be true. Your point certainly goes a long way in explaining why I haven't been garnering any where near as much enjoyment from both single player and MMO games as I used to for the last few years.
That is an excellent article and I feel your argument has quite a bit of relevance. However, and this might be unfairly taking your point out context, if this is the case, then what is the point of playing a static MMO at all? It seems that players would behave like this..
"Hey that level ten guy just soloed Hogger!"
"Really? Oh well. Lets not bother trying it ourselves then."
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
I think the video game business itself became too big. I think video games can be compare to movies now : most of them are bad and people create them with cash in mind. I don't know if my expectations are too high or if the quality of games and movies decreased, but damn i almost hate them all now. Sure there are a few exceptions and us, MMO players, are waiting for these.
I really hope that those ''exceptions'' are gonna be among titles coming in 2011 (TERA, SWTOR, GW2, RIFT,etc.)
The short and sweet, as far as mmos go anyway: just about when they became mainstream.. aka when wow come out, as much as that sounds like a broken record
I think your icon just gave me flashbacks. That or a mini-seizure.
Moving on. I think the game companies are often at fault. When they are so shortsighted as to provide a cash shop that negatively impacts the gameplay of those who do not use that cash shop, they put their game at risk of dying a very early death.
However, small fluff items in a cash shop won't stop me from playing a game. I've spent the past week crafting a cargo bike for my lvl 16 Fallen Earth main, using a second character to gather her materials. Even with offline crafting, it's taking a lot longer than I thought it would, and I should have waited a few more levels. Or maybe a lot more. It's hardly instant gratification, but I'm having fun with it anyway. The two cash shop items available in the game don't affect my enjoyment of this at all. However, if anyone could pay a few dollars and buy the same bike I'm crafting from the cash shop, that would affect my enjoyment, simply because it would feel less like an adventure than a pointless waste of time, easily circumvented by spending a few extra dollars. So I do see what the OP is saying.
And it seems pointless to me when people use a leveling service, buy ingame currency with real money (except maybe in EVE, where the length of time you've been building up skills matters much more than how much ISK you have in your wallet), or spend real money on cash shop items that allow them to surpass non cash shop users in pvp and pve. I don't understand why those people would bother playing in the first place. If the game is so flawed that earning in game currency, leveling, and perfecting your pve and pvp skills bores you to the point of paying real money to skip it, then play something better!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Some examples of instant gratification...
Item sales. I mean how much more instant can you get. No game play required, just buy it.
Quests as Pez Dispensers. Just look for the symbol above the NPCs head. They're even marked on your map.
Bonus XP for turning in quests that you already ran and defeated.
Items for turning in quests. Although I think it's good to have rewards for doing things in any game world, this relates more to the Pez Dispenser idea and ease, as well as giving you exactly what you need to move on to the next step in the connect the dots Pez Dispensers.
Zone levels. You don't have to search for much, or search far. It's all in your zone, according to your level, all handy-dandy wrapped for you. There's exceptions to this, of course, just generally speaking.
Badges. You don't have to earn respect of other players for doing things. You don't have to become well known by others. It's right there on a tally sheet, instantly added and no one need know what you did otehr than look at that. Not totally 100% bad, just sayin'.
Levels. Big numbers. Big dings. Happens fairly quickly, especially following quests and getting bonus XP.
Items. Big numbers. Big dings. Happens with every quest and with every "special" drop.
Instances. Don't want to deal with other players in a massively online game? Instances just for you.
Way Points/Markers. Just go here for what's been clearly defined for you.
Auction houses. Hey, no need to deal directly with other players in your Massive Online game. Just go here for neatly separated and ordered trades.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
Now, don't get me wrong. All those things are good for a WoW clone style game. Some few of them would be good for a sandbox game if done to fit that style.
Effects to the game. These things are all perfect for a game where you are the focus. Where whatever else happens means nothing to you. Where other player mean nothing to you. That's fine for this kind of game. But if you want a game that promotes social interaction, feels more "worldly", and is full of adventure and importance from the world perspective, these things as they are don't lend to that sort of experience.
This is not a knock on WoW or clones. It's a look at the causes and effects for those who want that "different" gaming experience. That excitement of being in a world. That immersion. That importance of the world and how it affects you, and you it. That massive social interaction interacting in the world making stories feel like they actually happened. Making other players important to you, and visa versa.
Once upon a time....
I disagree with you just because we have been playing games for 10+ years dosnt mean it got easier for us cause we are better players its because the games are easier 100% easier.
I will bring up Everquest again in old days of EQ in dreadlands at the north wall looking for a group because you can not solo any normal mob in the zone because no matter how good you were it was just to hard to do it and was much more simplified by the fact we needed a group to do it. Now with that said nothing was easy at all it took month and months for us to get our epic weapons.
I played pre BC WoW and to me it was still very easy because there was no death peanalty no corpse runs no risk vs reward system at all and alot of the easy mode i see in todays game they all follow the same formula i love when there is a death penalty because it makes you think twice before you go someplace where you shouldnt be because you are not experienced or to low of a level . Kithikor forest was the perfect example of this at night running through there was a nightmare and took a exact science to get through to get to highpass or rivervale. Nowadays you can run through almost any zone and avoid mostly everything there is because well its easy.
To the fact that most ppl did grow up is not a good point either back then most of us had familly's and kid's and we still played hours at a time getting things done it seems like forgive me if i am being rude or offensive to players but it seems as if the players now are lazy again it falls into this risk vs reward system i have tryed every old raid zone in EQ and WoW in DAOC AO and WoW is so dam easy compared to the older ones.
In the old games raid zones especially EQ it took skill patience and working together to take on mobs and im not talking because you neede 75 ppl to raid a boss im saying how infact hard it really was evan when planes of power came out when they added a flag system where you needed to complete zones to get further in your flags in order to get to the higer tier zones . You had to beat plane of storms valor justice nightmare disease in order to unlock Bastion of thunger crypt of decay hedges and etc you had to keep playing in order to finally get to Plane of time A then plane of time B where once you finished it it was a sence of hey i worked hard for this and i earned the right to be here.
Again im sorry if i come across ignorant or rude but what i have seen with MMO's the industy took a turn for the worse i mean working my rear off for a year to ger my Rangers Epic and i mean a year it took me when i finally did finish it i was so happy excited and i felt really good not because i finished it and i didnt have to do it anymore but because i accomplished something very good .
it go's back to the corpse runs as well some ppl say why would that be fun i mean you ran through a zone or zones completly naked trying to desperatly get back your body so you can regain all your equiptment. To us we took the risk and died so we learned not to do that again or in fact be more caution and more aware of where we were. I personly remeber on my Shaman in EQ1 going to the hole zone and walking down and trying to get to a spawn point of where a peice of my epic droped i was level 57 at the time i got to the spawn point and got attacked and died down there at the bottom of the zone took me 1 hour to get there and now in fact i ded i had to go back there to get my stuff when it was all said and done i died another 20 times and deleveled form level 57 or 56 almost back to 55 did i got mad i deleveled sure who wouldnt we worked so hard for that leved wo wouldnt be mad but in the end who's fault was it mine because i knew what the risk was and i still took it.
The leveling because way to easy and fast in todays standards of MMO's it took months and months and months and months in older games to level hell, level 51 to 52 took me a month to get in EQ1 and thats playing everyday 4-6 hours a day nowadays i can go from level 1-80 in a month if not sooner depends on the game some ppl do it in a monh some a week. why dose the end game appeal to so many in the beginning i mean when you get there there isnt much to do untill the expension came out in newer mmo's. I find the journey to the endgame more rewarding then anything else only endgame that was worth anything was eq1 because there was so much of it you can play for years and still not see it all.
What im saying ultimatly its not like i said earlier its not that we are better more experienced players its that the games in fact really did get much easier.
Said it before, I'll say it again. I feel sorry for game companies. The more important players are to each other, the more a game company is at the mercy of their game's community. If the community starts out bad or goes bad, the game is going to crash and burn much quicker and unalterably than it would in a game where soloing to max level, having instances all to one's self, and auction houses are possible.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
So you have to design the game right so that that doesn't happen. I am not, and never was, a PKer. I think there are solutions to that problem. Just in case that's what you are refering to.
Once upon a time....
I'm not referring just to PK, or to PK at all unless it's taken to extremes. I actually play on pvp servers when they're available. I'm referring to any game mechanic that puts you at the mercy of your fellow players. If you can't level and acquire items without coming into contact with other people, that's fine in an MMO, and possibly ideal, unless a significant number of the other people you share your gameworld with are people you would pay money to avoid (or possibly pay money to have eliminated).
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
When did instant gratification usurp adventure..?
I would have to say shortly after the release of World of Warcraft. When mass droves of children entered the MMO market, then subsequenty found the messege bords and started demanding things. As these youngsters saw other players wearing things they felt, they should have too, or were entitles to, but did not want to put forth the adventure it took to achieve such things.
Adventure ended when themeparks began...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
It happened when people started buying computers instead of hunting gear.
People who want adventure tend to turn off the computer and go outside more often. Those that choose the computer have already chosen instant gratification and any choices beyond that basic one should not come as a shock.
And I'm not trying to insult the MMO players or imply that we're somehow cowards or don't ever go outside. I spend 30 hours a week playing MMOs, yet I still have a good job and i still have friends and a life and I've visited 20 countries on 4 continents so far and plan for a lot more. But the fact is that if i didn't want instant gratification, I'd probably use those 30 hours for hiking or photography or diving or something else that's an adventure.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
yeah right.... mankind adopted the instant gratification ways when they started to use the wheel didn't you know.
/sarcasm off
All I get from your post here is that you don't understand the working of a human brain what so ever...
Good day!