You have to remember a lot of WoW players don't care about other MMOs. Another thing to remember is Star Wars has a huge following. It's been around for a long time. GW also has a following. It's been around for a while so people know of the name. Of course more people will hear of the sequal.
I don't think this is anything to be concerned about. I'm also pretty sure both games have been in development longer than Rift.
This. I'd beat most WoW players have never played another MMO, and don't want to.
I know 3 people I work with that play WoW. They started with WoW, and have never tried anything else. I asked them if they want to try something new with me, and its always "No". A lot of WoW players are perfectly happy in WoW.
my concern is about the invisible classes, if there exist dont gonna play this game
You get ganked too many times in another mmo?
Because it DOES have invisible classes, I will play, nothing like stealthers to add some extra excitement!!
I just think stealth is for cowards, and gankers of course, i can understand "some" people like it and here come the QQ etc... if someone say something again they superpower (killing whitout risk)
So my first guess was right, you got ganked too many times.
What mmos did you play where they had stealther classes?
Have you ever played one? Personally I find that style of pvp a blast and I am in no way a coward.
I could call you a coward for rolling a tank class. Why are you going with the class that has the most HP out of any class? Why do you have a shield?
Why do you choose healing classes? Maybe your a coward. I cant heal but you can? Thats not fair.
Obviously, I am being sarcastic. The point I am trying to make, all classes have there strengths and weaknesses and they usually balance eachother out. Let me give you a small example. There doesnt exist in an mmo a class that has all strenghts and no weaknesses. There is no caster/melle/tank/healer/stealther.
Healers usually tend to be soft or susceptible to silences etc.
Tanks usually tend to be kiteable to some extent.
Casters are also soft and a bit mobile because they cant tank the dmg, and they cant heal themselves of dmg.
See how that balances out?
Now in comes the stealther/Rogue/thief. He has to hit from melee. Would it be fair in a pvp fight if he didnt have stealth? He cant heal the dmg while coming at you, he cant take the dmg like a tank does and he doesnt have the range of a caster. What does he have? Stealth.
Would you expect a mage to do all his dmg within melee range? That would be ridiculous! He would get eaten alive. If stealthers didnt have stealth they would be like a mage without range or a tank without heavy armor.
I know this was posted a few pages back but i got to this thread a little late. I read all your posts Ender and i agreed with many of the points you made but this one just seemed to be really flawed imo.
You talk about the disadvantage that healer , tank and caster have and how it all balances out, which yes it does. Then you say stealthers would have a disadvantage but this is taken away once they are given stealth. So to me you just reinforced the other persons point. The other 3 classes all have a disadvantage while you no longer do. The arguement could be made that your disadvantage should be that you are susceptable to range damage. Because once you get close you can just shred someone.
My point was that all classes have disadvantages tied with STRENGTHS.
A healer may be soft but can heal. A mage may be soft but has RANGE, HIGH dps and great movement, and a tank has REALLY high armor. If you take away a rogues stealth, a rogue who by the way cannot hit from range and cannot heal and is very soft, he is like a warrior without heavy armor. Now why would I want to play a gimp warriorogue when I could just play the real thing?
My experience with stealth comes from 2 games DaoC and WAR. DaoC is where i think you're going to get people who hate the skill. It just wasn't done very well in that game, especially near the beginning years. Stealth classes could kill you very quickly and then get away , with you never having any chance to defend yourself. This will put a lot of players off and even make some quit. Having the classes that are almost no risk vs really high reward causes some problems. Players really had a choice between waiting for hours to get a group so they could be safe from these classes or playing one of these classes so they atleast had a chance to compete. Also with these classes being considered overpowered, people just flock to them on there own. This created servers where 60-70% of the population are all playing stealth classes.
I agree with your points here. I too played DAOC and WAR and back when I played DAOC I was a sorc. I didnt stand a chance in hell against a stealther or sometimes two. They hit SO hard, SO fast that it was just near instant death. I dont believe that was exactly balanced.
BUT I will say that DAOC was funny about balance in that all classes could do amazing things, OVERPOWERED things in the right circumstances. Bonedancers 1v1 were pretty OP but in ranged fights werent great. Banshees when there were a couple of them hit like mack trucks with cone AOE in keep fights but they were soft. Sorcerers Ranged AOE Mez was devastating to the other group but one stealther is almost all she wrote. Animists in keep fights were insane but get them out in the open and there weaknesses become apparent.
As for WAR i think they kinda learned from how bad DaoC was. I really never had a problem with the stealth classes. They were popular but not over played. They did have an advantage when sneaking up on you but you still seemed to atleast have a chance of winning or getting away.
I played stealthers at lower lvls in WAR and they were too soft in my opinion. Casters could turn around and 3 shot me and the lack of CC in WAR, still bad in my opinion.
I am not opposed to having stealth in the game but it needs to be done right and it can be a very fine line to walk. I think you mentioned in an earlier post that it adds a hint of danger which is good and i would agree. Just make sure you balance the classes enough where people dont feel forced to play a stealth class and you dont end up with over half the servers playing one. That hint of danger will quickly turn into a feeling of hopelessness.
I think WoW is pretty good at the with regards to stealthers. The problem with that game is the fact that every patch Rogues feel weaker. In DAOC everyone didnt have AOE. But in WoW, dmn, everyone has some freaking AOE. And once I am out of stealth, there goes half of my abilities, out the window...then let the dot and kite fest begin!
my concern is about the invisible classes, if there exist dont gonna play this game
You get ganked too many times in another mmo?
Because it DOES have invisible classes, I will play, nothing like stealthers to add some extra excitement!!
I just think stealth is for cowards, and gankers of course, i can understand "some" people like it and here come the QQ etc... if someone say something again they superpower (killing whitout risk)
So my first guess was right, you got ganked too many times.
What mmos did you play where they had stealther classes?
Have you ever played one? Personally I find that style of pvp a blast and I am in no way a coward.
I could call you a coward for rolling a tank class. Why are you going with the class that has the most HP out of any class? Why do you have a shield?
Why do you choose healing classes? Maybe your a coward. I cant heal but you can? Thats not fair.
Obviously, I am being sarcastic. The point I am trying to make, all classes have there strengths and weaknesses and they usually balance eachother out. Let me give you a small example. There doesnt exist in an mmo a class that has all strenghts and no weaknesses. There is no caster/melle/tank/healer/stealther.
Healers usually tend to be soft or susceptible to silences etc.
Tanks usually tend to be kiteable to some extent.
Casters are also soft and a bit mobile because they cant tank the dmg, and they cant heal themselves of dmg.
See how that balances out?
Now in comes the stealther/Rogue/thief. He has to hit from melee. Would it be fair in a pvp fight if he didnt have stealth? He cant heal the dmg while coming at you, he cant take the dmg like a tank does and he doesnt have the range of a caster. What does he have? Stealth.
Would you expect a mage to do all his dmg within melee range? That would be ridiculous! He would get eaten alive. If stealthers didnt have stealth they would be like a mage without range or a tank without heavy armor.
I know this was posted a few pages back but i got to this thread a little late. I read all your posts Ender and i agreed with many of the points you made but this one just seemed to be really flawed imo.
You talk about the disadvantage that healer , tank and caster have and how it all balances out, which yes it does. Then you say stealthers would have a disadvantage but this is taken away once they are given stealth. So to me you just reinforced the other persons point. The other 3 classes all have a disadvantage while you no longer do. The arguement could be made that your disadvantage should be that you are susceptable to range damage. Because once you get close you can just shred someone.
My point was that all classes have disadvantages tied with STRENGTHS.
A healer may be soft but can heal. A mage may be soft but has RANGE, HIGH dps and great movement, and a tank has REALLY high armor. If you take away a rogues stealth, a rogue who by the way cannot hit from range and cannot heal and is very soft, he is like a warrior without heavy armor. Now why would I want to play a gimp warriorogue when I could just play the real thing?
Ok but you still haven't told me where is their disadvantage now that they have the stealth? Your telling me they are hugely disadvantaged by not having stealth but what i am saying is they have no disadvantage if you give it to them. Which makes them overpowered.
The difference between you and a tank is that if you get to the target you do a lot more damage.
Also as it pertains to this game I am pretty sure you can have ranged damage. You get 7 classes to choose skills from. One of them being ranger. I'd be really suprised if ranger didn't have bow skills in it. So i think it's going to be possible to get stealth, melee and ranged damage. I know there are 8 classes but to my knowlegde 2 classes are going to be faction specific.
My experience with stealth comes from 2 games DaoC and WAR. DaoC is where i think you're going to get people who hate the skill. It just wasn't done very well in that game, especially near the beginning years. Stealth classes could kill you very quickly and then get away , with you never having any chance to defend yourself. This will put a lot of players off and even make some quit. Having the classes that are almost no risk vs really high reward causes some problems. Players really had a choice between waiting for hours to get a group so they could be safe from these classes or playing one of these classes so they atleast had a chance to compete. Also with these classes being considered overpowered, people just flock to them on there own. This created servers where 60-70% of the population are all playing stealth classes.
I agree with your points here. I too played DAOC and WAR and back when I played DAOC I was a sorc. I didnt stand a chance in hell against a stealther or sometimes two. They hit SO hard, SO fast that it was just near instant death. I dont believe that was exactly balanced.
BUT I will say that DAOC was funny about balance in that all classes could do amazing things, OVERPOWERED things in the right circumstances. Bonedancers 1v1 were pretty OP but in ranged fights werent great. Banshees when there were a couple of them hit like mack trucks with cone AOE in keep fights but they were soft. Sorcerers Ranged AOE Mez was devastating to the other group but one stealther is almost all she wrote. Animists in keep fights were insane but get them out in the open and there weaknesses become apparent.
As for WAR i think they kinda learned from how bad DaoC was. I really never had a problem with the stealth classes. They were popular but not over played. They did have an advantage when sneaking up on you but you still seemed to atleast have a chance of winning or getting away.
I played stealthers at lower lvls in WAR and they were too soft in my opinion. Casters could turn around and 3 shot me and the lack of CC in WAR, still bad in my opinion.
I am not opposed to having stealth in the game but it needs to be done right and it can be a very fine line to walk. I think you mentioned in an earlier post that it adds a hint of danger which is good and i would agree. Just make sure you balance the classes enough where people dont feel forced to play a stealth class and you dont end up with over half the servers playing one. That hint of danger will quickly turn into a feeling of hopelessness.
I think WoW is pretty good at the with regards to stealthers. The problem with that game is the fact that every patch Rogues feel weaker. In DAOC everyone didnt have AOE. But in WoW, dmn, everyone has some freaking AOE. And once I am out of stealth, there goes half of my abilities, out the window...then let the dot and kite fest begin!
Ok my intenions weren't to come here and argue about stealth. Especially since we dont know enough about the games systems to know what effect it will have. I actually wanted to mention the pvp system. I read their FaQ and it said they are going to have it in many forms and fashions , but i haven't found anything specific about it.
Pvp is usually a hot topic in new games and can be a big deciding point on whether or not people get hyped about your game. To my knowledge the isn't any information about what type of pvp they are going to use. Which could be a reason for the lack of hype.
I also wanted to mention the fact that there are only 2 factions and this kinda worries me. For those who played WAR and Aion I think we've seen the effect that having only 2 factions can have on the servers. Where one faction is always more popular and powerful than the other. Those two games had very different pvp systems but this still seemed to have a negative effect on both.
my concern is about the invisible classes, if there exist dont gonna play this game
You get ganked too many times in another mmo?
Because it DOES have invisible classes, I will play, nothing like stealthers to add some extra excitement!!
I just think stealth is for cowards, and gankers of course, i can understand "some" people like it and here come the QQ etc... if someone say something again they superpower (killing whitout risk)
So my first guess was right, you got ganked too many times.
What mmos did you play where they had stealther classes?
Have you ever played one? Personally I find that style of pvp a blast and I am in no way a coward.
I could call you a coward for rolling a tank class. Why are you going with the class that has the most HP out of any class? Why do you have a shield?
Why do you choose healing classes? Maybe your a coward. I cant heal but you can? Thats not fair.
Obviously, I am being sarcastic. The point I am trying to make, all classes have there strengths and weaknesses and they usually balance eachother out. Let me give you a small example. There doesnt exist in an mmo a class that has all strenghts and no weaknesses. There is no caster/melle/tank/healer/stealther.
Healers usually tend to be soft or susceptible to silences etc.
Tanks usually tend to be kiteable to some extent.
Casters are also soft and a bit mobile because they cant tank the dmg, and they cant heal themselves of dmg.
See how that balances out?
Now in comes the stealther/Rogue/thief. He has to hit from melee. Would it be fair in a pvp fight if he didnt have stealth? He cant heal the dmg while coming at you, he cant take the dmg like a tank does and he doesnt have the range of a caster. What does he have? Stealth.
Would you expect a mage to do all his dmg within melee range? That would be ridiculous! He would get eaten alive. If stealthers didnt have stealth they would be like a mage without range or a tank without heavy armor.
I know this was posted a few pages back but i got to this thread a little late. I read all your posts Ender and i agreed with many of the points you made but this one just seemed to be really flawed imo.
You talk about the disadvantage that healer , tank and caster have and how it all balances out, which yes it does. Then you say stealthers would have a disadvantage but this is taken away once they are given stealth. So to me you just reinforced the other persons point. The other 3 classes all have a disadvantage while you no longer do. The arguement could be made that your disadvantage should be that you are susceptable to range damage. Because once you get close you can just shred someone.
My point was that all classes have disadvantages tied with STRENGTHS.
A healer may be soft but can heal. A mage may be soft but has RANGE, HIGH dps and great movement, and a tank has REALLY high armor. If you take away a rogues stealth, a rogue who by the way cannot hit from range and cannot heal and is very soft, he is like a warrior without heavy armor. Now why would I want to play a gimp warriorogue when I could just play the real thing?
Ok but you still haven't told me where is their disadvantage now that they have the stealth? Your telling me they are hugely disadvantaged by not having stealth but what i am saying is they have no disadvantage if you give it to them. Which makes them overpowered.
The difference between you and a tank is that if you get to the target you do a lot more damage.
Also as it pertains to this game I am pretty sure you can have ranged damage. You get 7 classes to choose skills from. One of them being ranger. I'd be really suprised if ranger didn't have bow skills in it. So i think it's going to be possible to get stealth, melee and ranged damage. I know there are 8 classes but to my knowlegde 2 classes are going to be faction specific.
My experience with stealth comes from 2 games DaoC and WAR. DaoC is where i think you're going to get people who hate the skill. It just wasn't done very well in that game, especially near the beginning years. Stealth classes could kill you very quickly and then get away , with you never having any chance to defend yourself. This will put a lot of players off and even make some quit. Having the classes that are almost no risk vs really high reward causes some problems. Players really had a choice between waiting for hours to get a group so they could be safe from these classes or playing one of these classes so they atleast had a chance to compete. Also with these classes being considered overpowered, people just flock to them on there own. This created servers where 60-70% of the population are all playing stealth classes.
I agree with your points here. I too played DAOC and WAR and back when I played DAOC I was a sorc. I didnt stand a chance in hell against a stealther or sometimes two. They hit SO hard, SO fast that it was just near instant death. I dont believe that was exactly balanced.
BUT I will say that DAOC was funny about balance in that all classes could do amazing things, OVERPOWERED things in the right circumstances. Bonedancers 1v1 were pretty OP but in ranged fights werent great. Banshees when there were a couple of them hit like mack trucks with cone AOE in keep fights but they were soft. Sorcerers Ranged AOE Mez was devastating to the other group but one stealther is almost all she wrote. Animists in keep fights were insane but get them out in the open and there weaknesses become apparent.
As for WAR i think they kinda learned from how bad DaoC was. I really never had a problem with the stealth classes. They were popular but not over played. They did have an advantage when sneaking up on you but you still seemed to atleast have a chance of winning or getting away.
I played stealthers at lower lvls in WAR and they were too soft in my opinion. Casters could turn around and 3 shot me and the lack of CC in WAR, still bad in my opinion.
I am not opposed to having stealth in the game but it needs to be done right and it can be a very fine line to walk. I think you mentioned in an earlier post that it adds a hint of danger which is good and i would agree. Just make sure you balance the classes enough where people dont feel forced to play a stealth class and you dont end up with over half the servers playing one. That hint of danger will quickly turn into a feeling of hopelessness.
I think WoW is pretty good at the with regards to stealthers. The problem with that game is the fact that every patch Rogues feel weaker. In DAOC everyone didnt have AOE. But in WoW, dmn, everyone has some freaking AOE. And once I am out of stealth, there goes half of my abilities, out the window...then let the dot and kite fest begin!
I think what you are missing is that I am coming from a WoW perspective. In WoW the rogues DPS isnt the burstiest of the game. Honestly, the plate wearing, healing, completely overpowered Ret Paladin has the burstiest dmg.Warriors can charge and close the distance. Mages can blink to you or away from you. And if Rogues didnt have stealth....then holy Gimpness batman.
So you asked what would happen if they didnt have stealth. They would get focus fired and blown up in no time flat.
Your basic classes of any mmo are your Tank, Heals, Ranged Dps and Thief/Rogue. Tanks can take alot of dmg, heals can heal themselves and allies, Ranged dps deals dmg from range and stealthers add the third Realm To the RvR mix. They add the subterfuge and surprise.
A game without stealthers is like a game without Crowd Control. Its another layer that mixes things and makes things interesting.
If you havent played a stealther, I highly suggest you try. Its a lot of fun and you gain intimate knowledge about the class that you can use in your own defense.
Lastly, if they want to take stealth away from rogues, fine. Give me more burst, more stuns. Give me all of my abilities without stealth or positional requirements, give me a way to close the gap and give me a way to heal myself. That sounds like a fun class to play
You have to remember a lot of WoW players don't care about other MMOs. Another thing to remember is Star Wars has a huge following. It's been around for a long time. GW also has a following. It's been around for a while so people know of the name. Of course more people will hear of the sequal.
I don't think this is anything to be concerned about. I'm also pretty sure both games have been in development longer than Rift.
This. I'd beat most WoW players have never played another MMO, and don't want to.
I know 3 people I work with that play WoW. They started with WoW, and have never tried anything else. I asked them if they want to try something new with me, and its always "No". A lot of WoW players are perfectly happy in WoW.
Well far from the truth,just hang out in EQ2 and watch the Wow players infest chat with their nonsense.It ALWAYS ends up with Wow players telling chat that Wow is the best game and EQ2 is crap.They even infested FFXi the last couple years,their linear [blinkers]desire for game play is astonishing,former Wow players truly have little ability to adjust outside of Wow.This of course is not saying 100% can't but the majority cannot play anything that does not resemble what Wow plays like.
I really have no idea weather or not the Rift devs are trying to attract Wow players or are trying to define their own niche in the market,only time will tell come release.
One thing for sure is we do not need another simple minded quest to quest game with the entire community lkooking for a quick route to soem magical end game.What we DO need is a game from leve l1 onwards with no need to rush through anything.
WE/Rift also needs to do something unique with questing,again we don't need more fetch me quests for xp junk,that is not good game play nor good game design,that is copying EQ/Wow 101.FFXI was the FIRST developer to make questing different by creating a Rank/Fame system,no freebie xp for doing fetch me quests in FFXI.If Rift can be creative like that,then they might garner a lot of new fans.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
my concern is about the invisible classes, if there exist dont gonna play this game
You get ganked too many times in another mmo?
Because it DOES have invisible classes, I will play, nothing like stealthers to add some extra excitement!!
I just think stealth is for cowards, and gankers of course, i can understand "some" people like it and here come the QQ etc... if someone say something again they superpower (killing whitout risk)
So my first guess was right, you got ganked too many times.
What mmos did you play where they had stealther classes?
Have you ever played one? Personally I find that style of pvp a blast and I am in no way a coward.
I could call you a coward for rolling a tank class. Why are you going with the class that has the most HP out of any class? Why do you have a shield?
Why do you choose healing classes? Maybe your a coward. I cant heal but you can? Thats not fair.
Obviously, I am being sarcastic. The point I am trying to make, all classes have there strengths and weaknesses and they usually balance eachother out. Let me give you a small example. There doesnt exist in an mmo a class that has all strenghts and no weaknesses. There is no caster/melle/tank/healer/stealther.
Healers usually tend to be soft or susceptible to silences etc.
Tanks usually tend to be kiteable to some extent.
Casters are also soft and a bit mobile because they cant tank the dmg, and they cant heal themselves of dmg.
See how that balances out?
Now in comes the stealther/Rogue/thief. He has to hit from melee. Would it be fair in a pvp fight if he didnt have stealth? He cant heal the dmg while coming at you, he cant take the dmg like a tank does and he doesnt have the range of a caster. What does he have? Stealth.
Would you expect a mage to do all his dmg within melee range? That would be ridiculous! He would get eaten alive. If stealthers didnt have stealth they would be like a mage without range or a tank without heavy armor.
I know this was posted a few pages back but i got to this thread a little late. I read all your posts Ender and i agreed with many of the points you made but this one just seemed to be really flawed imo.
You talk about the disadvantage that healer , tank and caster have and how it all balances out, which yes it does. Then you say stealthers would have a disadvantage but this is taken away once they are given stealth. So to me you just reinforced the other persons point. The other 3 classes all have a disadvantage while you no longer do. The arguement could be made that your disadvantage should be that you are susceptable to range damage. Because once you get close you can just shred someone.
My point was that all classes have disadvantages tied with STRENGTHS.
A healer may be soft but can heal. A mage may be soft but has RANGE, HIGH dps and great movement, and a tank has REALLY high armor. If you take away a rogues stealth, a rogue who by the way cannot hit from range and cannot heal and is very soft, he is like a warrior without heavy armor. Now why would I want to play a gimp warriorogue when I could just play the real thing?
Ok but you still haven't told me where is their disadvantage now that they have the stealth? Your telling me they are hugely disadvantaged by not having stealth but what i am saying is they have no disadvantage if you give it to them. Which makes them overpowered.
The difference between you and a tank is that if you get to the target you do a lot more damage.
Also as it pertains to this game I am pretty sure you can have ranged damage. You get 7 classes to choose skills from. One of them being ranger. I'd be really suprised if ranger didn't have bow skills in it. So i think it's going to be possible to get stealth, melee and ranged damage. I know there are 8 classes but to my knowlegde 2 classes are going to be faction specific.
My experience with stealth comes from 2 games DaoC and WAR. DaoC is where i think you're going to get people who hate the skill. It just wasn't done very well in that game, especially near the beginning years. Stealth classes could kill you very quickly and then get away , with you never having any chance to defend yourself. This will put a lot of players off and even make some quit. Having the classes that are almost no risk vs really high reward causes some problems. Players really had a choice between waiting for hours to get a group so they could be safe from these classes or playing one of these classes so they atleast had a chance to compete. Also with these classes being considered overpowered, people just flock to them on there own. This created servers where 60-70% of the population are all playing stealth classes.
I agree with your points here. I too played DAOC and WAR and back when I played DAOC I was a sorc. I didnt stand a chance in hell against a stealther or sometimes two. They hit SO hard, SO fast that it was just near instant death. I dont believe that was exactly balanced.
BUT I will say that DAOC was funny about balance in that all classes could do amazing things, OVERPOWERED things in the right circumstances. Bonedancers 1v1 were pretty OP but in ranged fights werent great. Banshees when there were a couple of them hit like mack trucks with cone AOE in keep fights but they were soft. Sorcerers Ranged AOE Mez was devastating to the other group but one stealther is almost all she wrote. Animists in keep fights were insane but get them out in the open and there weaknesses become apparent.
As for WAR i think they kinda learned from how bad DaoC was. I really never had a problem with the stealth classes. They were popular but not over played. They did have an advantage when sneaking up on you but you still seemed to atleast have a chance of winning or getting away.
I played stealthers at lower lvls in WAR and they were too soft in my opinion. Casters could turn around and 3 shot me and the lack of CC in WAR, still bad in my opinion.
I am not opposed to having stealth in the game but it needs to be done right and it can be a very fine line to walk. I think you mentioned in an earlier post that it adds a hint of danger which is good and i would agree. Just make sure you balance the classes enough where people dont feel forced to play a stealth class and you dont end up with over half the servers playing one. That hint of danger will quickly turn into a feeling of hopelessness.
I think WoW is pretty good at the with regards to stealthers. The problem with that game is the fact that every patch Rogues feel weaker. In DAOC everyone didnt have AOE. But in WoW, dmn, everyone has some freaking AOE. And once I am out of stealth, there goes half of my abilities, out the window...then let the dot and kite fest begin!
I think what you are missing is that I am coming from a WoW perspective. In WoW the rogues DPS isnt the burstiest of the game. Honestly, the plate wearing, healing, completely overpowered Ret Paladin has the burstiest dmg.Warriors can charge and close the distance. Mages can blink to you or away from you. And if Rogues didnt have stealth....then holy Gimpness batman.
So you asked what would happen if they didnt have stealth. They would get focus fired and blown up in no time flat.
Your basic classes of any mmo are your Tank, Heals, Ranged Dps and Thief/Rogue. Tanks can take alot of dmg, heals can heal themselves and allies, Ranged dps deals dmg from range and stealthers add the third Realm To the RvR mix. They add the subterfuge and surprise.
A game without stealthers is like a game without Crowd Control. Its another layer that mixes things and makes things interesting.
If you havent played a stealther, I highly suggest you try. Its a lot of fun and you gain intimate knowledge about the class that you can use in your own defense.
Lastly, if they want to take stealth away from rogues, fine. Give me more burst, more stuns. Give me all of my abilities without stealth or positional requirements, give me a way to close the gap and give me a way to heal myself. That sounds like a fun class to play
Yeah i was getting the impression we were talking about 2 totally different types of stealth classes. I dont really know anything about WoW stealth classes. I played it a few months after release and didn't even make it through the free month. I'm not saying it's a bad game, just that i could tell rather quickly it wasn't for me. We'll have to wait and see what Rift does with the stealth classes. Hopefully it's closer to your idea of them than mine.
So wow with new classes (and combined system), dynamic rifts, imo better GFX and a fiew other new features this will be the wow killer for ME.
That is not enough for me. Trion is no noobs so the game might be interesting but if it feels just like Wow it never will be that large. Most Wow players will continue to play Wow until something different shows up, possibly from Blizzard.
And the rest of us MMO players are not so fond about Wow so being similar is not a good thing for them. The IP in itself is new and have no prior fans.
I do note that Scott hartsman is leading Trion now, he used to work on EQ2 so it is possible that EQ2 players know more about Rift than Wow players.
But the fact is that this game is not that know among general players (the kind that don't spend hours on forums like we do) and even if it will be a new Wow with better graphics and better lore I don't think it will get more players than EQ2 or LOTRO.
Bioware have many fans that don't currently play MMOs and I think many of them will try TOR. Arenanet are well known in the MMO genre and are good with demos and getting positive reviews on the gaming sites and in papers like PC gamer.
Trion is rather unknown even if their former boss once made the first few Heroes of might and magic. They need a selling point, something only they can offer to get players. If they don't have one the game will never get that many players.
Wow was made by Blizzard who already had millions of fans in 2004. Trion doesn't so they must really prove to us that this is a great game. If it is just like Wow with a different lore they can't really do that.
Orange - You have to remember Arenanet was relatively an unproven company before they released Guild Wars. Trion Worlds is in similar situation.
Red - One reason why Trion Worlds was formed is Jon Van C. He and his team have had built a new MMO server platform that allows developers and designers to deploy dynamic contents in a virtual world on the fly. That is my understanding. The reason why he left the company is most likely Lars and Jon have had a disagreement over what their fantasy world should be looked like. Jon left and then Trion hired Scott Hartsman most likely after hearing his pitch idea - Rifts tearing Telara apart. At that time, it was probably the most sensible world vision to take advantage of its new MMO server platform technologies that Jon and his team created for Trion Worlds.
I think Trion Worlds is pretty confident with their new technologies and it will be their biggest selling point. Trion Worlds actually secured $100 million from venture captial firms. That is remarkable for an MMO company to accomplish this. Remember VC guys are extremely picky people. The biggest selling point to VC guys is most likely new MMO server platform technolgies built by Jon and his team.
I'm sure its been said, but as i dont want to read 10 pages of posts to confirm, here it is:
Good MMO's gain a playerbase by word of mouth. Rift may not launch with a bajillion players, but i can say with confidence that it will launch well, maintain 80% or better of its initial box sales as subs, and will continue to grow from there as people start realizing there is this well polished game that isnt buggy as fuck, look friggin awesome, has a unique and cool class system, has dynamic content, and is overall just fuck awesome.
Since I started this thread, Ive paid close attention to any post so I can fill you in on the last couple pages.
A sum up of some of the posts
-Trions strategy is to take a different route compared to GuildWars2 and KOTOR.
-They are building more of a underground following.
-RIFT has had incredibly smooth gameplay demos at conventions.
-They arent doing enough advertising and need to pick it up!
-Trion will ramp up there advertising efforts closer to release.
Here is my prediction. The WoWers will get Cataclysm before the other games release and will burn out in a 3 month period. GW2 will release like GuildWars, decent big and then a big exodous. SWKOTOR wont live up to the hype but will keep a number of players. And this is happening all the while RIFT has a very respectable release and modest growth while word of mouth spreads. The people who didnt like GW2 and KOTOR and are burnt out on WoW ---> RIFT. Biased, yes I know, as it should be.
You pretty much nailed it exacly like i would have predicted.
Anyone who has played WOW knows that as an enthusiast (i call enthusiasts people who play 15-25 hours a week), you can easily eat through a WOW expansion's worth of content in 2-3 months.
So, i agree, Cataclysm will be the last major xpac for WOW, 3-4 months you will see a major exodus from that game. By that point games like SW, FFXIV and Rift will be out. SW:TOR will get the majority of the WOW exodus because its already proven to cater to the single player, casual mind set. FFXIV will probably get a lot of the people who tend to trend towards asian MMO's but only played WOW cus it was at the time the only thing worth playing (in their mind). Rift, on the other hand is going to get just about every single EQ1 veteran, EQ2 veteran, Vanguard veteran, and a ton of others from WOW, LOTR:O and other games that are being played as "interrim" games.
Given the epic F-UP of a release that Vanguard was, it still sold over 300k boxes at release. Yes, it failed to maintain even 1/2 of that 3 months later, but that just proves that a "new IP" game can and will garner a healthy portion of box sales simply based on the people who are making the game.
If you read Brad McQuaid's blog, he mentions:
"Of course, looking back now with 20/20 hindsight, we were very wrong. Over 80% of the people who bought Vanguard and tried to play it quit by level 2 or 3. What could be the reason? Well, given how fast it was to level the first couple of times, what could be so horrible that people would quit so quickly? My bet is crappy framerate (due to rendering too many polygons and too many and too big textures) and bad hitching (being the result of the world being seamless and having huge art assets)."
Anyways, my point is, given the state of the overall MMO community (no really worthwhile games for the average mmo'er except WOW) and given that WOW was in the midst of major growth at the time vanguard released. Its a fairly safe assumption that 100-200k initial subs for Rift is shooting VERY low.
I will honestly be surprised if it doesnt sell over 750k and retain most of that given everything thats come back from average day to day mmo'ers. Also, look at all the MMO specific gaming sites like tentonhammer, etc. They are literally jizzing in their pants at everything they've seen of Rift. To get the media that interested in an MMO is almost impossible, they tend to be a lot more harsh than the average user (excluding the fanboi and troll of course)
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I also want to mention, a lot of people have been throwing the $100 million number around as the budget for Rift. Thats actually incorrect. Trion Worlds secured 100 million in capital, which they are using for all 3 of the games they're developing. According to Scott Hartsman, approx $50mil of that has been alotted to Rift as its their prime mmo of the 3.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Either way I don't want the mass influx of temporary gamers that you guys are talking about. I agree that they will just "go back to WoW" and I'd prefer they just stay there originally. The last thing this game needs is that game hopping crowd to hop over and then hop away so that all the naysayers can have a field day screaming about how much of a failure it is.
The mass influx of temporary gamers wont be bad for Trion. All those people do buy the game, and that $$ goes back to the company who we atm want to succeed.
And there is the possibility they wont be temporary customers. You may not want it, but its going to happen as it happens in every game.
Its not like we have any other option to see if we like the game other than buying it. There are no demos to play. You have to pay to play. Some will stay, some wont.
And enough with the WoW hate. I would put down hard cash money, that the majority of RIFT customers will have been WoW subscribers. Thats right the majority. Not EQ fanbase, not DAOC fanbase, not Guildwars fanbase, WOWs SUBSCRIBERS fueling this game.
And is that so bad? A good many of them will not only come but will stay. If any of them are as burnt out as I am, they have been playing for quite some time and would probably welcome a change.
Of course boxes sold isn't bad for Trion. That's an understood that shouldn't even need to be said. My issue, and it's just my issue (I'm not trying to pass it off as a universal constant as most of you around here do with your opinions) is that from looking at recent releases you see this large influx go to a game, and as you state most come from WoW, stay a month and them filter en masse back to WoW.
The next thing you see are forums blowing up and game site article touting that the game is a failure because of the mass loss of subscriptions. Sure, I don't dispute that a sizeable portion left because of issues with those games. I know, though, that a sizeable portion left simply because they are bungy cording gamers who most likely play WoW. So X game, deserving or not, gets a failure tag which snowballs and keeps potential customers (who don't hop the minute a new game drops) away.
That said, I know nothing I say or do is going to stop them. I can still express my opinion on the matter, though.
As for "WoW hate", just drop it. I would put down hard cash money you don't have a flippin clue as to how I feel about any game, even the one in my sig. Note that the part that launched you into Blizzard defense mode was written in quotes. Please feel free to insert any game in there that doesn't offend you. You tout that the majority of customers will have been former WoW subscribers, well, by the numbers that means the majority of gamer hoppers I was mentioning will have been WoW players as well. So...to set the record straight I couldn't care less about WoW or the people playing it. I don't spend much time worrying about games I have no interest in.
Oh, and as far as the number of folks looking forward to this game and where they came from you might want to keep your money in your wallet for now. Cindy put up a nice little thread in the official forums asking where how old in gamer years people were and at this moment by far there are more people signed up over there that got into MMO gaming way before WoW. SUre, that may change over time, but for now it is what it is.
Lastly, to answer your "isi it so bad?" question. Depends on how many "OMG!!!wutz up wit deez NiGhT elf earz thay r not loooooong enuf oh wutz a KeLaRi?????" and "They didn't do it like this in WoW" comments get spamed into chat on day one. (<--- This is a joke. It may be a bad or lame attempt at a joke but it is a joke nonetheless. This is only a joke...)
I enjoy conversing with you. You have some very good points. Some of which I had missed. Obviously I dont want people coming in that are just going to leave and I certainly dont want those same people to leave in a month and call it a failure.
I took your comment about WoWers staying in WoW as a dislike for that playerbase. And your right, I dont know how you feel about each and every game. Its not like were pals that chat on vent.
I cant stand the immature kids that spam trade in WoW. If there is an ignore feature in RIFT, you wont even see most of those goofballs....more than once.
When I played WARhammer there was a lot of the WOW crowd there. The good thing was, it was almost like everyone was prepared for them. Because if someone started going on about "It wasnt like this in WoW" etc etc..they would get shouted down fast.
In AION there was a large WoW crowd, and while many people left, I didnt hear much complaining in game. Many of the people that loved the game initially were just sick to death of WoW and they were happy to be there.
I said all that say, its my hope that of the people that come to RIFT from WoW, they are happy to be there, the ones that smart off get shouted down and the ones that spam annoying crap get ignored.
Thanks. So far as I can tell you are a pretty good guy/girl (haven't checked your profile so covering both bases) and hopefully you give Rift a shot for a few months at least. Good companies (and Trion as certainly started off with a good reputation as far as openness about what it's doing with respect to it's community) deserve gamers that are good people.
That said, I'll see you in game.
(p.s. - Oh, and if you choose to go Guardian faction please don't take the full military assault I and my Defiant friends launch at you as anything other than good fun lol!)
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Either way I don't want the mass influx of temporary gamers that you guys are talking about. I agree that they will just "go back to WoW" and I'd prefer they just stay there originally. The last thing this game needs is that game hopping crowd to hop over and then hop away so that all the naysayers can have a field day screaming about how much of a failure it is.
The mass influx of temporary gamers wont be bad for Trion. All those people do buy the game, and that $$ goes back to the company who we atm want to succeed.
And there is the possibility they wont be temporary customers. You may not want it, but its going to happen as it happens in every game.
Its not like we have any other option to see if we like the game other than buying it. There are no demos to play. You have to pay to play. Some will stay, some wont.
And enough with the WoW hate. I would put down hard cash money, that the majority of RIFT customers will have been WoW subscribers. Thats right the majority. Not EQ fanbase, not DAOC fanbase, not Guildwars fanbase, WOWs SUBSCRIBERS fueling this game.
And is that so bad? A good many of them will not only come but will stay. If any of them are as burnt out as I am, they have been playing for quite some time and would probably welcome a change.
Of course boxes sold isn't bad for Trion. That's an understood that shouldn't even need to be said. My issue, and it's just my issue (I'm not trying to pass it off as a universal constant as most of you around here do with your opinions) is that from looking at recent releases you see this large influx go to a game, and as you state most come from WoW, stay a month and them filter en masse back to WoW.
The next thing you see are forums blowing up and game site article touting that the game is a failure because of the mass loss of subscriptions. Sure, I don't dispute that a sizeable portion left because of issues with those games. I know, though, that a sizeable portion left simply because they are bungy cording gamers who most likely play WoW. So X game, deserving or not, gets a failure tag which snowballs and keeps potential customers (who don't hop the minute a new game drops) away.
That said, I know nothing I say or do is going to stop them. I can still express my opinion on the matter, though.
As for "WoW hate", just drop it. I would put down hard cash money you don't have a flippin clue as to how I feel about any game, even the one in my sig. Note that the part that launched you into Blizzard defense mode was written in quotes. Please feel free to insert any game in there that doesn't offend you. You tout that the majority of customers will have been former WoW subscribers, well, by the numbers that means the majority of gamer hoppers I was mentioning will have been WoW players as well. So...to set the record straight I couldn't care less about WoW or the people playing it. I don't spend much time worrying about games I have no interest in.
Oh, and as far as the number of folks looking forward to this game and where they came from you might want to keep your money in your wallet for now. Cindy put up a nice little thread in the official forums asking where how old in gamer years people were and at this moment by far there are more people signed up over there that got into MMO gaming way before WoW. SUre, that may change over time, but for now it is what it is.
Lastly, to answer your "isi it so bad?" question. Depends on how many "OMG!!!wutz up wit deez NiGhT elf earz thay r not loooooong enuf oh wutz a KeLaRi?????" and "They didn't do it like this in WoW" comments get spamed into chat on day one. (<--- This is a joke. It may be a bad or lame attempt at a joke but it is a joke nonetheless. This is only a joke...)
I enjoy conversing with you. You have some very good points. Some of which I had missed. Obviously I dont want people coming in that are just going to leave and I certainly dont want those same people to leave in a month and call it a failure.
I took your comment about WoWers staying in WoW as a dislike for that playerbase. And your right, I dont know how you feel about each and every game. Its not like were pals that chat on vent.
I cant stand the immature kids that spam trade in WoW. If there is an ignore feature in RIFT, you wont even see most of those goofballs....more than once.
When I played WARhammer there was a lot of the WOW crowd there. The good thing was, it was almost like everyone was prepared for them. Because if someone started going on about "It wasnt like this in WoW" etc etc..they would get shouted down fast.
In AION there was a large WoW crowd, and while many people left, I didnt hear much complaining in game. Many of the people that loved the game initially were just sick to death of WoW and they were happy to be there.
I said all that say, its my hope that of the people that come to RIFT from WoW, they are happy to be there, the ones that smart off get shouted down and the ones that spam annoying crap get ignored.
Thanks. So far as I can tell you are a pretty good guy/girl (haven't checked your profile so covering both bases) and hopefully you give Rift a shot for a few months at least. Good companies (and Trion as certainly started off with a good reputation as far as openness about what it's doing with respect to it's community) deserve gamers that are good people.
That said, I'll see you in game.
(p.s. - Oh, and if you choose to go Guardian faction please don't take the full military assault I and my Defiant friends launch at you as anything other than good fun lol!)
Yeah I havent decided yet. When I played WoW I went horde. When I played Warhammer I went Order to avoid the leet kiddies and for AION I went Asmodian cause Elyos looked like pale, arrogant blood elves. Has TRION put up any pictures yet showing the difference between Guardians and Defiant?
I may go Defiant. If I do, I'm gonna look you and your guild up.
Yeah I havent decided yet. When I played WoW I went horde. When I played Warhammer I went Order to avoid the leet kiddies and for AION I went Asmodian cause Elyos looked like pale, arrogant blood elves. Has TRION put up any pictures yet showing the difference between Guardians and Defiant?
I may go Defiant. If I do, I'm gonna look you and your guild up.
They have some photos of the 3 races aligned to each side.
Guardian:
Mathosians (Humans), High Elves and Dwarves.
Defiant:
Eth (Humans), Kelari and Bahmi
The Kelari are the only ones not shown yet on the website but we have seen them in gameplay video from Gamescom and PAX.
Everything seems rehashed, I agree. Even the ui seems like a direct ripoff of eq2. Everything about it has been done 100 times. With that being said...nothing fresh has emerged from these type of 'proven' games in quite some time; as in the last major release catering to them was vanguard. I think people who like this proven style but want a 'fresh' world will jump on board. How many don't want to try something new by now only time will tell. I was a big EQ1 player around release for a few years, but I think I may have a hard time going back to the tediousness of this click-target style.
You never know what you will get with MMO's. With some big-budget games releasing in late '10/early '11, it will be interesting to see how this game does, especially if marketing remains quiet. I think the mmo market now niche divisions bigger than it's playerbase, which will cause some bigger budget games to collapse early if expectations aren't met.
You don't think there are enough "fresh" worlds already out there?
This is my 1st view of RIFT - nothing new. No pirates, no cowboys, no dinosaurs, no colonizing planets, no space ships, no time warps, no aliens...just more flipping elves. I could link 100 games with this exact kinda "setting". Graphics may be great, but another dwarf and magician game?! Come on. They should have spent some of that 50 million in researching what the market LACKED and needed...not what the majority of the market played due to lack of diversity.
see if the "market" really wanted scifi, pirates, cowboys or whatever, how come games in those "genres" always scrape around at the bottom of the barrel? There is a reason why all the "top" MMOs (number of subs) are fantasy games... and it's probably not because there's no choice... there is.
Don't get me wrong, I like SciFi stuff and I'm going to check out Earthrise f.e. but the truth is that all serious ventures into the SciFi MMO market apart from EVE weren't really a success...
Also I have to inform you, that in this thread you've basically taken on the role of the guy, who, during WARs development, turned up in threads and said "this looks totally like WoW!!!!1 nbobody is gonna play this crap!!", and they still sold almost 900k copies...
If Rift can catch the interest of a similar sized crowd and present a way more polished game, thus sustaining that crowd, it would be right up there with WoW, Aion and the 2 Lineages.... Even if it doesn't it can still be a success...
here are 4 MMOs that are considered a success apart from WoW and their sub numbers:
your numbers are a bit off but point taken. I think 100k subs at least will be very easy to get world wide for Rift assuming it is as polished as Hartsman claims it will be. I think it will be able to pull 300k with a solid, stable game. Cant wait for it personally. Looks great!
Your linked article-I am not trying to knit pick but....that guy is listing the top mmos of 2010 and in it he mentions 2 games that ARENT EVEN RELEASED YET. I dont know what else to say but, WTF?
The article is top 10 MOST SUCCESFUL MMOs. Successful, that means subs right? Cause Lego has no subs, FF14 has no subs, Warhammer has more subs than AOC, and is rated lower, EQ2 has more subs than AOC and is rated lower.
lol wrong linked that one.sorry. you could have just said mislink kiddo
Oh then I apologize, my angst was more towards that author than you personally.
In reply to the orignal poster, i have also found that noone knows that this game is up and coming. This could be a good things for us gamers. Serious gamers seem to know about it, so it'll make the launch of the game go well without all the 12 yr old's wanting " free lootz " or in just general bugging us That is my selfish attitude! Seems this game will be an excellent game and soon the"newbs" will come
I did just happen upon this game and WOW did i feel i struck gold!! I am in serious raiding kins so i am slowly spreading the word!
In reply to the orignal poster, i have also found that noone knows that this game is up and coming. This could be a good things for us gamers. Serious gamers seem to know about it, so it'll make the launch of the game go well without all the 12 yr old's wanting " free lootz " or in just general bugging us That is my selfish attitude! Seems this game will be an excellent game and soon the"newbs" will come
I did just happen upon this game and WOW did i feel i struck gold!! I am in serious raiding kins so i am slowly spreading the word!
OMG really? Every post do we have to mention WOW?
Yeah, thats one way to look at it. We can get in before the masses join!
You can't honestly expect this game (or any mmo) to pull the numbers WoW has. A MMO needs less then 100k subs to stay afloat (rough estimate). This is looking to be a really good game and all we can hope for is the best. I'm hoping it will at least reach the 1 million mark with subs.
You can't honestly expect this game (or any mmo) to pull the numbers WoW has. A MMO needs less then 100k subs to stay afloat (rough estimate). This is looking to be a really good game and all we can hope for is the best. I'm hoping it will at least reach the 1 million mark with subs.
I dont know who you are replying to, but I think its safe to say that none of us expect RIFT or any other game to pull WoW numbers. As a side note, that discussion has been done to death.
A large part of my frustration is aimed directly at the clueless masses (wave @ the cattle) that dont look past the FIRST shiny thing they are shown. And yes that is directly aimed at you SWTOR! Big disappointment incoming. In before fanbois #346 makes his single appearance to the Rift section.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but is there a reason why Guild Wars 2 is viewed so poorly in this thread aside from being a competing game? Is it a B2P stigma or belief that it is built like the first GW? At the moment, between the two games Rift has a potentially more "oldschool" mindset and class shifting (and its sub model) difference from GW2 with everything else largely cosmetic. Not bashing or praising either game, just wondering as to the negativity towards one given the similarities to the other.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but is there a reason why Guild Wars 2 is viewed so poorly in this thread aside from being a competing game? Is it a B2P stigma or belief that it is built like the first GW? At the moment, between the two games Rift has a potentially more "oldschool" mindset and class shifting (and its sub model) difference from GW2 with everything else largely cosmetic. Not bashing or praising either game, just wondering as to the negativity towards one given the similarities to the other.
Not entirely sure really, may be because it will likely pull the worst part of wow's community plus a few other unsavouries. Don't go quoting me on that though.
From my own perspective I'll likely give gw2 a go since the game looks like it'll be a blast (and no subs = only a few quid to lose if it doesn't keep my interest).
You can't honestly expect this game (or any mmo) to pull the numbers WoW has. A MMO needs less then 100k subs to stay afloat (rough estimate). This is looking to be a really good game and all we can hope for is the best. I'm hoping it will at least reach the 1 million mark with subs.
I dont know who you are replying to, but I think its safe to say that none of us expect RIFT or any other game to pull WoW numbers. As a side note, that discussion has been done to death.
A large part of my frustration is aimed directly at the clueless masses (wave @ the cattle) that dont look past the FIRST shiny thing they are shown. And yes that is directly aimed at you SWTOR! Big disappointment incoming. In before fanbois #346 makes his single appearance to the Rift section.
I love the way you are hating SWTOR, it will deliver, and I really hope they do. But I guess it will be singleplayer based mostly, which I find good enough.. KOTOR 3 FTW!
Really not sure where you got the idea Rift was a top three game. I expect it to pull Vanguard type numbers and rise to settle around the 50K range. No way a studio out of the gates, no IP, no existing base pulls out a 1 million+ MMO on their first go. Could go higher, but it'll go the way of EVE where it grows slowly while retaining.
As long as they can fill a server, I see no reason not to enjoy the ride even if it does get cut short... APB
Comments
This. I'd beat most WoW players have never played another MMO, and don't want to.
I know 3 people I work with that play WoW. They started with WoW, and have never tried anything else. I asked them if they want to try something new with me, and its always "No". A lot of WoW players are perfectly happy in WoW.
I think WoW is pretty good at the with regards to stealthers. The problem with that game is the fact that every patch Rogues feel weaker. In DAOC everyone didnt have AOE. But in WoW, dmn, everyone has some freaking AOE. And once I am out of stealth, there goes half of my abilities, out the window...then let the dot and kite fest begin!
Ok my intenions weren't to come here and argue about stealth. Especially since we dont know enough about the games systems to know what effect it will have. I actually wanted to mention the pvp system. I read their FaQ and it said they are going to have it in many forms and fashions , but i haven't found anything specific about it.
Pvp is usually a hot topic in new games and can be a big deciding point on whether or not people get hyped about your game. To my knowledge the isn't any information about what type of pvp they are going to use. Which could be a reason for the lack of hype.
I also wanted to mention the fact that there are only 2 factions and this kinda worries me. For those who played WAR and Aion I think we've seen the effect that having only 2 factions can have on the servers. Where one faction is always more popular and powerful than the other. Those two games had very different pvp systems but this still seemed to have a negative effect on both.
I think what you are missing is that I am coming from a WoW perspective. In WoW the rogues DPS isnt the burstiest of the game. Honestly, the plate wearing, healing, completely overpowered Ret Paladin has the burstiest dmg.Warriors can charge and close the distance. Mages can blink to you or away from you. And if Rogues didnt have stealth....then holy Gimpness batman.
So you asked what would happen if they didnt have stealth. They would get focus fired and blown up in no time flat.
Your basic classes of any mmo are your Tank, Heals, Ranged Dps and Thief/Rogue. Tanks can take alot of dmg, heals can heal themselves and allies, Ranged dps deals dmg from range and stealthers add the third Realm To the RvR mix. They add the subterfuge and surprise.
A game without stealthers is like a game without Crowd Control. Its another layer that mixes things and makes things interesting.
If you havent played a stealther, I highly suggest you try. Its a lot of fun and you gain intimate knowledge about the class that you can use in your own defense.
Lastly, if they want to take stealth away from rogues, fine. Give me more burst, more stuns. Give me all of my abilities without stealth or positional requirements, give me a way to close the gap and give me a way to heal myself. That sounds like a fun class to play
Well far from the truth,just hang out in EQ2 and watch the Wow players infest chat with their nonsense.It ALWAYS ends up with Wow players telling chat that Wow is the best game and EQ2 is crap.They even infested FFXi the last couple years,their linear [blinkers]desire for game play is astonishing,former Wow players truly have little ability to adjust outside of Wow.This of course is not saying 100% can't but the majority cannot play anything that does not resemble what Wow plays like.
I really have no idea weather or not the Rift devs are trying to attract Wow players or are trying to define their own niche in the market,only time will tell come release.
One thing for sure is we do not need another simple minded quest to quest game with the entire community lkooking for a quick route to soem magical end game.What we DO need is a game from leve l1 onwards with no need to rush through anything.
WE/Rift also needs to do something unique with questing,again we don't need more fetch me quests for xp junk,that is not good game play nor good game design,that is copying EQ/Wow 101.FFXI was the FIRST developer to make questing different by creating a Rank/Fame system,no freebie xp for doing fetch me quests in FFXI.If Rift can be creative like that,then they might garner a lot of new fans.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yeah i was getting the impression we were talking about 2 totally different types of stealth classes. I dont really know anything about WoW stealth classes. I played it a few months after release and didn't even make it through the free month. I'm not saying it's a bad game, just that i could tell rather quickly it wasn't for me. We'll have to wait and see what Rift does with the stealth classes. Hopefully it's closer to your idea of them than mine.
Orange - You have to remember Arenanet was relatively an unproven company before they released Guild Wars. Trion Worlds is in similar situation.
Red - One reason why Trion Worlds was formed is Jon Van C. He and his team have had built a new MMO server platform that allows developers and designers to deploy dynamic contents in a virtual world on the fly. That is my understanding. The reason why he left the company is most likely Lars and Jon have had a disagreement over what their fantasy world should be looked like. Jon left and then Trion hired Scott Hartsman most likely after hearing his pitch idea - Rifts tearing Telara apart. At that time, it was probably the most sensible world vision to take advantage of its new MMO server platform technologies that Jon and his team created for Trion Worlds.
I think Trion Worlds is pretty confident with their new technologies and it will be their biggest selling point. Trion Worlds actually secured $100 million from venture captial firms. That is remarkable for an MMO company to accomplish this. Remember VC guys are extremely picky people. The biggest selling point to VC guys is most likely new MMO server platform technolgies built by Jon and his team.
You pretty much nailed it exacly like i would have predicted.
Anyone who has played WOW knows that as an enthusiast (i call enthusiasts people who play 15-25 hours a week), you can easily eat through a WOW expansion's worth of content in 2-3 months.
So, i agree, Cataclysm will be the last major xpac for WOW, 3-4 months you will see a major exodus from that game. By that point games like SW, FFXIV and Rift will be out. SW:TOR will get the majority of the WOW exodus because its already proven to cater to the single player, casual mind set. FFXIV will probably get a lot of the people who tend to trend towards asian MMO's but only played WOW cus it was at the time the only thing worth playing (in their mind). Rift, on the other hand is going to get just about every single EQ1 veteran, EQ2 veteran, Vanguard veteran, and a ton of others from WOW, LOTR:O and other games that are being played as "interrim" games.
Given the epic F-UP of a release that Vanguard was, it still sold over 300k boxes at release. Yes, it failed to maintain even 1/2 of that 3 months later, but that just proves that a "new IP" game can and will garner a healthy portion of box sales simply based on the people who are making the game.
If you read Brad McQuaid's blog, he mentions:
"Of course, looking back now with 20/20 hindsight, we were very wrong. Over 80% of the people who bought Vanguard and tried to play it quit by level 2 or 3. What could be the reason? Well, given how fast it was to level the first couple of times, what could be so horrible that people would quit so quickly? My bet is crappy framerate (due to rendering too many polygons and too many and too big textures) and bad hitching (being the result of the world being seamless and having huge art assets)."
Anyways, my point is, given the state of the overall MMO community (no really worthwhile games for the average mmo'er except WOW) and given that WOW was in the midst of major growth at the time vanguard released. Its a fairly safe assumption that 100-200k initial subs for Rift is shooting VERY low.
I will honestly be surprised if it doesnt sell over 750k and retain most of that given everything thats come back from average day to day mmo'ers. Also, look at all the MMO specific gaming sites like tentonhammer, etc. They are literally jizzing in their pants at everything they've seen of Rift. To get the media that interested in an MMO is almost impossible, they tend to be a lot more harsh than the average user (excluding the fanboi and troll of course)
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I also want to mention, a lot of people have been throwing the $100 million number around as the budget for Rift. Thats actually incorrect. Trion Worlds secured 100 million in capital, which they are using for all 3 of the games they're developing. According to Scott Hartsman, approx $50mil of that has been alotted to Rift as its their prime mmo of the 3.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Thanks. So far as I can tell you are a pretty good guy/girl (haven't checked your profile so covering both bases) and hopefully you give Rift a shot for a few months at least. Good companies (and Trion as certainly started off with a good reputation as far as openness about what it's doing with respect to it's community) deserve gamers that are good people.
That said, I'll see you in game.
(p.s. - Oh, and if you choose to go Guardian faction please don't take the full military assault I and my Defiant friends launch at you as anything other than good fun lol!)
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Yeah I havent decided yet. When I played WoW I went horde. When I played Warhammer I went Order to avoid the leet kiddies and for AION I went Asmodian cause Elyos looked like pale, arrogant blood elves. Has TRION put up any pictures yet showing the difference between Guardians and Defiant?
I may go Defiant. If I do, I'm gonna look you and your guild up.
They have some photos of the 3 races aligned to each side.
Guardian:
Mathosians (Humans), High Elves and Dwarves.
Defiant:
Eth (Humans), Kelari and Bahmi
The Kelari are the only ones not shown yet on the website but we have seen them in gameplay video from Gamescom and PAX.
http://www.riftgame.com/en/races/index.php
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
OP you didnt factor in the fact that Guild Wars 2 has been advertised from GW1's last X-pac. Its even on the box.
Anyway, hype isnt needed if it can deliver. Dont make them rush or over hype.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Oh then I apologize, my angst was more towards that author than you personally.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
In reply to the orignal poster, i have also found that noone knows that this game is up and coming. This could be a good things for us gamers. Serious gamers seem to know about it, so it'll make the launch of the game go well without all the 12 yr old's wanting " free lootz " or in just general bugging us
That is my selfish attitude! Seems this game will be an excellent game and soon the"newbs" will come 
I did just happen upon this game and WOW did i feel i struck gold!! I am in serious raiding kins so i am slowly spreading the word!
OMG really? Every post do we have to mention WOW?
Yeah, thats one way to look at it. We can get in before the masses join!
You can't honestly expect this game (or any mmo) to pull the numbers WoW has. A MMO needs less then 100k subs to stay afloat (rough estimate). This is looking to be a really good game and all we can hope for is the best. I'm hoping it will at least reach the 1 million mark with subs.
I dont know who you are replying to, but I think its safe to say that none of us expect RIFT or any other game to pull WoW numbers. As a side note, that discussion has been done to death.
A large part of my frustration is aimed directly at the clueless masses (wave @ the cattle) that dont look past the FIRST shiny thing they are shown. And yes that is directly aimed at you SWTOR! Big disappointment incoming. In before fanbois #346 makes his single appearance to the Rift section.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but is there a reason why Guild Wars 2 is viewed so poorly in this thread aside from being a competing game? Is it a B2P stigma or belief that it is built like the first GW? At the moment, between the two games Rift has a potentially more "oldschool" mindset and class shifting (and its sub model) difference from GW2 with everything else largely cosmetic. Not bashing or praising either game, just wondering as to the negativity towards one given the similarities to the other.
Not entirely sure really, may be because it will likely pull the worst part of wow's community plus a few other unsavouries. Don't go quoting me on that though.
From my own perspective I'll likely give gw2 a go since the game looks like it'll be a blast (and no subs = only a few quid to lose if it doesn't keep my interest).
I love the way you are hating SWTOR, it will deliver, and I really hope they do. But I guess it will be singleplayer based mostly, which I find good enough.. KOTOR 3 FTW!
Really not sure where you got the idea Rift was a top three game. I expect it to pull Vanguard type numbers and rise to settle around the 50K range. No way a studio out of the gates, no IP, no existing base pulls out a 1 million+ MMO on their first go. Could go higher, but it'll go the way of EVE where it grows slowly while retaining.
As long as they can fill a server, I see no reason not to enjoy the ride even if it does get cut short... APB