If you like SWG so much , go play the game, it is there for you.
(O_o)== {bang}
That about sums that line up. No, SWG is not there. A husk of the former game is there gutting and devoid of both people and what made it great.
Yes it is. If you want to play NGE you can play it, and if you want to play ...... you can so stop trying to tell everyone it isn't and go use google for a change.
The game is available for you old swg style, you know what that means. I'm not gonna sit here and spell it out for you, have some common sense and look it up.
If you like SWG so much , go play the game, it is there for you.
(O_o)== {bang}
That about sums that line up. No, SWG is not there. A husk of the former game is there gutting and devoid of both people and what made it great.
Yes it is. If you want to play NGE you can play it, and if you want to play ...... you can so stop trying to tell everyone it isn't and go use google for a change.
The game is available for you old swg style, you know what that means. I'm not gonna sit here and spell it out for you, have some common sense and look it up.
"alternative" SWG that aren't SOE's NGE are illegal, and furthermore do not offer the full array of features or support that the original SWG pre-CU offered.
In other words, no, it's not possible to truly play SWG pre-CU the way it used to be.
Lots of players.. particularly disgruntled anti-NGE SWG veterans wanted SWTOR to actually be SWG II but in TOR time period.
They hoped for a pre-CU version.. after all.. BIOWARE has tons of cash.. tons of skill.. so they could do it.. if they wanted.
But they obviously are not making a Sandbox SW MMO.. they are making a TOR MMO.. in their own menthod.. and betting on control+story = fun.
SWTOR will likely be about playing all professions to experience all the different facets of the same basic story.
SWG was about setting up props and short-stories.. but mainly about allowing players to create a Star Wars community.. where players interacted heavily with each other.
I don't think TOR is going to be anywhere close to as community-orientated as SWG. Companions will replace other players.. and there is not a lot of good reasons to just 'hang out'.. as there is no buffing/social (ie: entertainer) class to perform that service.
Uncle Owen was about playing the SWG-crafting mini-game.. but he still interacted with other players.. could still produce goods for other crafter which supported housing & cities... as well as raw goods for munitions & combat.
In other words... even Uncle Owen had a 'purpose'... a viable reason to exist as a non-combat class.
Now... not everyone was just purely Uncle Owen (non-combat).. but some where (and stil are).. however thats where multple characters added to the experience.. created alter-egos that you could do both crafting on one toon and combat on another. SWG enouraged community development.. and still does.
TOR will encourage you to explore stories.. but I really wonder what kind of community it will create. The social aspects of MMO is very important for player retention... and I am not talking about PvP braggarts showing their leet skilz and such non-sense.
I mean.. head on over to the bar and chat with someone for fun... or fly up in space and yes: dicking around for a while... exploring the various wrecks or holding a party near a nebula or planet for background.
TOR will have some of these 'social/community' aspects..but only a fraction.. a drop in the bucket compared to what existed (and still exists) in SWG.
The crying shame is if the powers-that-be think TOR is a SWG replacement.. because it is not. Its different game that will ultimately appeal to a different audience.. and will hopefully be a lot of fun and sucessful.
But TOR is not a SWG replacement.. it has no intentions to replace SWG in terms of game function or community appeal.
I just hope that Lucas Arts recognizes this.. and helps SOE weather the storm as some SWG players try out TOR but will likely keep some SWG accounts open as well.
It would be a crying shame to lose the SWG community... because TOR is not going to support it in the same way.
If you miss the SW community.. its still very much alive in Galaxies.. if you are on an active server like Starsider. I am still there.. I am still playing.. my guild is alive and healthy.. and the devs are still doing things to keep the game fun to play.
Shelby13 - You argue that focusing on story will lead to lower player retention, but I strongly disagree. Just look at World of Warcraft for instance. That game has a heavy focus on instance running and raiding and it has the highest player retention of any game. Furthermore, its focus on quests and the ability for players to solo their way through the level progression has only helped the game in the long run. TOR is utilizing many of these same gameplay mechanics in their MMO, and I would bet that player retention will be much higher than it EVER was in SWG.
I would argue that the open-ended sandbox approach actually does far more to deter potential players than it does to keep them. Most players get lost and bored when they have no clear objective and no clear storyline. This is why no sandbox game can maintain a population anywhere close to the most popular themepark games. SWG was losing subscribers even before they made drastic changes to that game, which was the original reason for making such changes. Unfortunately, despite the very vocal contingent here at MMORPG.com, I don't think there are enough SWG vets and sandbox fans to financially support another big sandbox project... especially not in the Star Wars IP. The genre has developed to the point that everyone knows sandbox games will not be as successful as themeparks... so no major studios will go that route. Its just business... and the demand does not justify the cost.
I whole-heartedly agree with you that SWG veterans should go back to SWG. Even if it is different than it was in pre-CU/NGE, it is far more similar to the SWG sandbox they want than TOR will ever be. Those who hang around here hoping that TOR will somehow magically transform into a sandbox are sadly delusional.
Actually... its not so much that story-based MMO will have lower retention.. thats not what I am saying per-say. I am talking about a target audience.. the 'Sandbox Crowd' will likely not be as crazy about rolling a new character after reaching the 'current' ending of the story (till the next update).. should that ever happen.. and start a new 'story' based on XXX character instead of YYY character perspective.
TOR may not be as attractive in the long term for Sandbox-styled players.. maybe.. this is speculation on my part.
The ability to retain those kind of players seems to be a lot more limited in TOR with what appears.. so far.. to be a realatively low social aspect game. However I could be entirely wrong.. perhaps the group stories will create a whole new kind of 'social combat' experience.. which has happened in other.. more combat-orientated games.
And I am not qualified to say.. for sure.. if Sandbox players is a big enough audience to support a new IP or not. I can speculate and debate it.. but really I have no idea what would have happened.. eventually.. to SWG if it was left untouched. Would players have quit from boredom.. maybe... possibly. I think EvE is pretty sandbox-like in my limited experience playing it.. and it seems to still be going strong and still adding new players to replace those who leave.
Personally I am not a pure-sandbox player either.. although I do play SWG.. its not the only style I like. SWG attracts me because I CAN do sandbox stuff.. but I don't ONLY do sandbox stuff. There are theme parks.. instance raids.. battlefields.. those kind of fairly structured systems that are common to the 'new' pre-set content methods being used in most MMO's today... those exist in SWG as well.
I suppose a lot of player where hoping for more 'sandboxy' elements in upcomming games like TOR just so they can express themselves and immerse themselvees with a bit more freedom. Obviously not a full-featured open-system sandbox.. but the ability to turn around in space and not just participate in 'combat' in every aspect.. thats something that does carry a lot of appeal to players who do burn out on 'themepark' repetition.
Star Wars Galaxies.. for all its faults, shortcommings and bad history.., still has at its very foundation the ability to have a lot of fun just exploring.. crafting.. entertaining.. building houses & cities .. and never once picking up a blaster or light sabre. Oh..you still can blast away or slice with a glow-bat.. thats there as well. You can raid 24x7 and farm instances for loot... but you don't necessarily have to.
TOR is purpose-built to give players a particular story experience as a pre-set character where decions lead down one of several pre-determined paths to provide appropriate NPC feedback and story conclusions.
SWG is purpose-built to leave things open ended.. game stories are part of mini-quests and NPC reactions are limited. Its other player reactions that generate your personal 'story'. Are you a sucessful munitions crafter... that depends on how you treat other players and the quality of your goods.
Both are good, fun designs.. both cater to a slightly different audience but there is certainly a good portion of players that can enjoy both at different times.
I just hope the 'big wigs' don't automatically assume that TOR will be the only supportable Star Wars MMO... because long term I think that will not be the case.. that SWG players will still prefer SWG for the unique parts it offers... even if they 'test out' TOR for a few months to a year.
BIOWARE's hype-factory needs to be cautious here.. players are quite worked up and expectations of the 'best MMO ever' where being tossed around on a regular basis. I suspect.. a lot of the SWG Veterans might have made that prediction a bit to early.. and expected TOR to be SWG II... and now are starting to see that is not the case. The space 'flight' (more space-driving) release by TOR had some serious critism.. and I bet a LOT of that critism stems from the expectations of some of these players.. that they hoped for something like SWG or better.
I could go on..but I think I've done enough of that already.
TOR just might.. might.. remind players that SWG still has a lot of the things they want to experience & do. I just hope SOE and LA don't toss in the towel too soon.. there is still some fight left in the old girl.. and she has been counted down & out prematurely more times than I care to recall.
TOR just might.. might.. remind players that SWG still has a lot of the things they want to experience & do. I just hope SOE and LA don't toss in the towel too soon.. there is still some fight left in the old girl.. and she has been counted down & out prematurely more times than I care to recall.
I can totally agree with you on this point. Unfortunately, the SWG vets themselves are the ones who will kill the game simply because they will never accept the way SOE has changed it. The majority will never go back and enjoy it for all of the sandbox features it still offers them...
Instead they will continue to post on this forum in the futile hope that Bioware will decide to change TOR for them instead... and it annoys me to no end.
This shit is hard. Nothing grows in the sand. Probably should have googled this stuff up before I started. Oh well, at least the Jawas are fun to mess with.
Tears streaming down my eyes....
I don't know why, but this was funny as hell to me. You earned an internet today sir!
ON-TOPIC: Sandbox games are boring as hell. They have no place in a game based on Star Wars. I don't want to "make my own adventure." I want to veg out after a hard day's work and have my entertainment spoon-fed me like I was an invalid. So sue me. I'm looking forward to SWTOR and gave SWG a pass a month after launch.
I think WOW was the rise and fall of the Themepark style of mmo. The NGE was already done once, I feel like TOR is just the hard headed mindset that it wasnt the failed idea that was to blame but the players, they want to prove that themeparks are what people want because that what the execs choose to believe. It's a pretty stupid mindset I know, they even have the same PR guys Sony Used for the NGE, sad really.
Then next thing you know you'll be a charred corpse and all you get to do is log in and stare at the smoke coming off your body, that doesn't sound very fun. Certainly not worth subbing past the free month to do.
I still think player generated content options is the way to go for a MMO, I know devs were talking a lot about it in 2003 and 2004 when they talked about future developments in MMO design, I know SWG and AC2 had some of it, but somehow this never lifted off in the MMO's that came after that. EQ2 has now something like player created books with their own written stories and other written content in them, but that's it. Ah yes, APB has the player created content too in the skin designs for tattoos, cars and shirts and such, it can be a great feature, I hope more MMO devs will implement things as such, it's odd that hardly any still have.
Maybe it was too much of a strain on the servers to have all these player generated content roaming around in the environment too. Still a shame.
I mean, I don't think sandbox elements and themepark elements are mutually exclusive in a MMORPG, even more, elements from both approaches can work together to enrichen a MMO world; you'd have the themepark elements that'd help you out finding your way in the large MMO world while questing and traveling from place to place, and the sandbox elements to be free to do your own thing and for the creative types to go wild.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I mean, I don't think sandbox elements and themepark elements are mutually exclusive in a MMORPG, even more, elements from both approaches can work together to enrichen a MMO world; you'd have the themepark elements that'd help you out finding your way in the large MMO world while questing and traveling from place to place, and the sandbox elements to be free to do your own thing and for the creative types to go wild.
They are mutually exclusive in this game because the current systems they have in place would not work with open sandbox systems. For instance:
1. In order to allow things like open-world player housing, they would have to completely re-design the planet maps to allow for sprawling player ghettos. They would have to remove content everywhere to provide free space for housing.
2. In order to allow for a skill-based progression system, they would have to do away with their classes and then all of the class-specific content they have created. They would also have to do away with all of the class-specific items they have created.
3. In order to allow freaky aliens, they would have to alter many of cutscenes that rely on humanoid body features and remove the option for romance, etc.
4. In order to allow for a crafting system as complex as SWG, they would have to do away with their entire current character equipment and rewards systems.
5. In order to provide a free-roam space sim inside the game, they would basically have to make an entirely new game and slap in on top of the existing one.
Truly it isn't possible for them to give the sandbox fans what they want and not screw up the existing game at this point...
Also, I have to say that things like randomized mission terminals in SWG were not fun or immersive at all. They were simply the result of lazy developers who could not provide enough content for their own game, so they slapped on a randomizing encounter system and hoped that would appease people. For me, it certainly did not. Its the same crap that Cryptic does in every game because they are too lazy to design levels and interesting encounters themselves.
I mean, I don't think sandbox elements and themepark elements are mutually exclusive in a MMORPG, even more, elements from both approaches can work together to enrichen a MMO world; you'd have the themepark elements that'd help you out finding your way in the large MMO world while questing and traveling from place to place, and the sandbox elements to be free to do your own thing and for the creative types to go wild.
They are mutually exclusive in this game because the current systems they have in place would not work with open sandbox systems. For instance:
(snips)
Also, I have to say that things like randomized mission terminals in SWG were not fun or immersive at all. They were simply the result of lazy developers who could not provide enough content for their own game, so they slapped on a randomizing encounter system and hoped that would appease people. For me, it certainly did not. Its the same crap that Cryptic does in every game because they are too lazy to design levels and interesting encounters themselves.
I wasn't saying that SW:TOR will be the game that will combine sandbox and themepark elements, merely that those 2 approaches aren't mutually exclusive.
Also, I agree that what some people call "sandbox" features sometimes nothing more than the devs being lazy or time challenged to put in enough content in their game.
A lack of themepark content doesn't automatically make a good sandbox MMO.
Regarding SW:TOR: crafting still has to be explained in detail yet, exploration which I think will be hugely possible in SW:TOR I'd consider one of the oldschool features, not the themepark ones.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I wasn't saying that SW:TOR will be the game that will combine sandbox and themepark elements, merely that those 2 approaches aren't mutually exclusive.
Also, I agree that what some people call "sandbox" features sometimes nothing more than the devs being lazy or time challenged to put in enough content in their game.
A lack of themepark content doesn't automatically make a good sandbox MMO.
Regarding SW:TOR: crafting still has to be explained in detail yet, exploration which I think will be hugely possible in SW:TOR I'd consider one of the oldschool features, not the themepark ones.
I agree with you that the two concepts could potentially work together... and I would love to see someone give it a try. However, the game would have to be designed around it from the very beginning.
I'm glad we agree about the mission ternimal concept sucking... that is one game design decision I hope is NEVER repeated in another MMO.
On a scale of 1 to 10 for socialization I give 10 to pre-cu SWG and TOR shall be something around 3. As reference WoW is 2.
I don't expect a tell hell anytime soon in TOR at all, it shall just be a click fest. A fun game nonetheless but still a click fest.
Wow, if I felt about a MMORPG as you feel about how SW:TOR will be, there would be no chance in hell that I'd be playing it, there are better, more fun things with my time to do. I would still be playing SWG if this is how I felt about the two.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I played SWG from beta till about 4 months after the NGE and CU.
Every MMO i have played since SWG has missed elements that for me make a game really good.
Sure SWG had lots of problems and bugs etc.. But what it did wright that no other game for no reason I can think of have copyed was there amazing Crafting and resorce managment system.
For me any game that has ecconamy / crafting / and resorce systems with the depth that SWG's had then that games 50% there for me..
Resorce shifts, with differant qualitys etc... Customisable weapons and armors. Building houses and furniture... Player venders, Player run malls, Citys...
Having to go out into the world to survey to find good deposits of resorces, setup your harvesters and bingo ur a resorce traider...
What I ask myself is WHY has no other MMO followed this modle, and WHY have they all followed the simple WoW type crafting thats about as engaging as watching paint dry.. click click click craft... 1000s times.. Mining resorces nodes.... OMG stop its so boring...
I can only hope that they dont dumb down SWTOR so much its just not engaging enough for people over 12.
Originally posted by AmadeuszRex I played SWG from beta till about 4 months after the NGE and CU. Every MMO i have played since SWG has missed elements that for me make a game really good. Sure SWG had lots of problems and bugs etc.. But what it did wright that no other game for no reason I can think of have copyed was there amazing Crafting and resorce managment system. For me any game that has ecconamy / crafting / and resorce systems with the depth that SWG's had then that games 50% there for me.. Resorce shifts, with differant qualitys etc... Customisable weapons and armors. Building houses and furniture... Player venders, Player run malls, Citys... Having to go out into the world to survey to find good deposits of resorces, setup your harvesters and bingo ur a resorce traider...
What I ask myself is WHY has no other MMO followed this modle, and WHY have they all followed the simple WoW type crafting thats about as engaging as watching paint dry.. click click click craft... 1000s times.. Mining resorces nodes.... OMG stop its so boring...
I can only hope that they dont dumb down SWTOR so much its just not engaging enough for people over 12.
seriously. that crafting/resource system needs to be the standard in all mmorpgs. devs use that as a template just like holy trinity and then add their own take on it for their game.
No need to argue. It was best but we are old now. Too many years passed everything changed. The community we used to are no longer exist. Its a shadow from past only. We need to move on.
Very very old mmorpg gamer was a Jedi before NGE, before Kayss, Before CU cant evern remember the name of toon:)
No need to argue. It was best but we are old now. Too many years passed everything changed. The community we used to are no longer exist. Its a shadow from past only. We need to move on.
Very very old mmorpg gamer was a Jedi before NGE, before Kayss, Before CU cant evern remember the name of toon:)
That's purely in your opinion ofc, I'd played mmos years before 'old' SWG hit and personally I find several mmos far superior to what that game has ever been. But ofc then that is purely my opinion as well.
Your comment about the changed community and the need to move on are spot on though.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
(O_o)== {bang}
That about sums that line up. No, SWG is not there. A husk of the former game is there gutting and devoid of both people and what made it great.
Shadus
Yes it is. If you want to play NGE you can play it, and if you want to play ...... you can so stop trying to tell everyone it isn't and go use google for a change.
The game is available for you old swg style, you know what that means. I'm not gonna sit here and spell it out for you, have some common sense and look it up.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
"alternative" SWG that aren't SOE's NGE are illegal, and furthermore do not offer the full array of features or support that the original SWG pre-CU offered.
In other words, no, it's not possible to truly play SWG pre-CU the way it used to be.
So whats the OP's point?
Start over and create a different MMO? Is the OP going to pay for that?
I really do 'get' what the OP is saying.
Lots of players.. particularly disgruntled anti-NGE SWG veterans wanted SWTOR to actually be SWG II but in TOR time period.
They hoped for a pre-CU version.. after all.. BIOWARE has tons of cash.. tons of skill.. so they could do it.. if they wanted.
But they obviously are not making a Sandbox SW MMO.. they are making a TOR MMO.. in their own menthod.. and betting on control+story = fun.
SWTOR will likely be about playing all professions to experience all the different facets of the same basic story.
SWG was about setting up props and short-stories.. but mainly about allowing players to create a Star Wars community.. where players interacted heavily with each other.
I don't think TOR is going to be anywhere close to as community-orientated as SWG. Companions will replace other players.. and there is not a lot of good reasons to just 'hang out'.. as there is no buffing/social (ie: entertainer) class to perform that service.
Uncle Owen was about playing the SWG-crafting mini-game.. but he still interacted with other players.. could still produce goods for other crafter which supported housing & cities... as well as raw goods for munitions & combat.
In other words... even Uncle Owen had a 'purpose'... a viable reason to exist as a non-combat class.
Now... not everyone was just purely Uncle Owen (non-combat).. but some where (and stil are).. however thats where multple characters added to the experience.. created alter-egos that you could do both crafting on one toon and combat on another. SWG enouraged community development.. and still does.
TOR will encourage you to explore stories.. but I really wonder what kind of community it will create. The social aspects of MMO is very important for player retention... and I am not talking about PvP braggarts showing their leet skilz and such non-sense.
I mean.. head on over to the bar and chat with someone for fun... or fly up in space and yes: dicking around for a while... exploring the various wrecks or holding a party near a nebula or planet for background.
TOR will have some of these 'social/community' aspects..but only a fraction.. a drop in the bucket compared to what existed (and still exists) in SWG.
The crying shame is if the powers-that-be think TOR is a SWG replacement.. because it is not. Its different game that will ultimately appeal to a different audience.. and will hopefully be a lot of fun and sucessful.
But TOR is not a SWG replacement.. it has no intentions to replace SWG in terms of game function or community appeal.
I just hope that Lucas Arts recognizes this.. and helps SOE weather the storm as some SWG players try out TOR but will likely keep some SWG accounts open as well.
It would be a crying shame to lose the SWG community... because TOR is not going to support it in the same way.
If you miss the SW community.. its still very much alive in Galaxies.. if you are on an active server like Starsider. I am still there.. I am still playing.. my guild is alive and healthy.. and the devs are still doing things to keep the game fun to play.
SWG/STO/(SWTOR)
Shelby13 - You argue that focusing on story will lead to lower player retention, but I strongly disagree. Just look at World of Warcraft for instance. That game has a heavy focus on instance running and raiding and it has the highest player retention of any game. Furthermore, its focus on quests and the ability for players to solo their way through the level progression has only helped the game in the long run. TOR is utilizing many of these same gameplay mechanics in their MMO, and I would bet that player retention will be much higher than it EVER was in SWG.
I would argue that the open-ended sandbox approach actually does far more to deter potential players than it does to keep them. Most players get lost and bored when they have no clear objective and no clear storyline. This is why no sandbox game can maintain a population anywhere close to the most popular themepark games. SWG was losing subscribers even before they made drastic changes to that game, which was the original reason for making such changes. Unfortunately, despite the very vocal contingent here at MMORPG.com, I don't think there are enough SWG vets and sandbox fans to financially support another big sandbox project... especially not in the Star Wars IP. The genre has developed to the point that everyone knows sandbox games will not be as successful as themeparks... so no major studios will go that route. Its just business... and the demand does not justify the cost.
I whole-heartedly agree with you that SWG veterans should go back to SWG. Even if it is different than it was in pre-CU/NGE, it is far more similar to the SWG sandbox they want than TOR will ever be. Those who hang around here hoping that TOR will somehow magically transform into a sandbox are sadly delusional.
Actually... its not so much that story-based MMO will have lower retention.. thats not what I am saying per-say. I am talking about a target audience.. the 'Sandbox Crowd' will likely not be as crazy about rolling a new character after reaching the 'current' ending of the story (till the next update).. should that ever happen.. and start a new 'story' based on XXX character instead of YYY character perspective.
TOR may not be as attractive in the long term for Sandbox-styled players.. maybe.. this is speculation on my part.
The ability to retain those kind of players seems to be a lot more limited in TOR with what appears.. so far.. to be a realatively low social aspect game. However I could be entirely wrong.. perhaps the group stories will create a whole new kind of 'social combat' experience.. which has happened in other.. more combat-orientated games.
And I am not qualified to say.. for sure.. if Sandbox players is a big enough audience to support a new IP or not. I can speculate and debate it.. but really I have no idea what would have happened.. eventually.. to SWG if it was left untouched. Would players have quit from boredom.. maybe... possibly. I think EvE is pretty sandbox-like in my limited experience playing it.. and it seems to still be going strong and still adding new players to replace those who leave.
Personally I am not a pure-sandbox player either.. although I do play SWG.. its not the only style I like. SWG attracts me because I CAN do sandbox stuff.. but I don't ONLY do sandbox stuff. There are theme parks.. instance raids.. battlefields.. those kind of fairly structured systems that are common to the 'new' pre-set content methods being used in most MMO's today... those exist in SWG as well.
I suppose a lot of player where hoping for more 'sandboxy' elements in upcomming games like TOR just so they can express themselves and immerse themselvees with a bit more freedom. Obviously not a full-featured open-system sandbox.. but the ability to turn around in space and not just participate in 'combat' in every aspect.. thats something that does carry a lot of appeal to players who do burn out on 'themepark' repetition.
Star Wars Galaxies.. for all its faults, shortcommings and bad history.., still has at its very foundation the ability to have a lot of fun just exploring.. crafting.. entertaining.. building houses & cities .. and never once picking up a blaster or light sabre. Oh..you still can blast away or slice with a glow-bat.. thats there as well. You can raid 24x7 and farm instances for loot... but you don't necessarily have to.
TOR is purpose-built to give players a particular story experience as a pre-set character where decions lead down one of several pre-determined paths to provide appropriate NPC feedback and story conclusions.
SWG is purpose-built to leave things open ended.. game stories are part of mini-quests and NPC reactions are limited. Its other player reactions that generate your personal 'story'. Are you a sucessful munitions crafter... that depends on how you treat other players and the quality of your goods.
Both are good, fun designs.. both cater to a slightly different audience but there is certainly a good portion of players that can enjoy both at different times.
I just hope the 'big wigs' don't automatically assume that TOR will be the only supportable Star Wars MMO... because long term I think that will not be the case.. that SWG players will still prefer SWG for the unique parts it offers... even if they 'test out' TOR for a few months to a year.
BIOWARE's hype-factory needs to be cautious here.. players are quite worked up and expectations of the 'best MMO ever' where being tossed around on a regular basis. I suspect.. a lot of the SWG Veterans might have made that prediction a bit to early.. and expected TOR to be SWG II... and now are starting to see that is not the case. The space 'flight' (more space-driving) release by TOR had some serious critism.. and I bet a LOT of that critism stems from the expectations of some of these players.. that they hoped for something like SWG or better.
I could go on..but I think I've done enough of that already.
TOR just might.. might.. remind players that SWG still has a lot of the things they want to experience & do. I just hope SOE and LA don't toss in the towel too soon.. there is still some fight left in the old girl.. and she has been counted down & out prematurely more times than I care to recall.
SWG/STO/(SWTOR)
I can totally agree with you on this point. Unfortunately, the SWG vets themselves are the ones who will kill the game simply because they will never accept the way SOE has changed it. The majority will never go back and enjoy it for all of the sandbox features it still offers them...
Instead they will continue to post on this forum in the futile hope that Bioware will decide to change TOR for them instead... and it annoys me to no end.
Tears streaming down my eyes....
I don't know why, but this was funny as hell to me. You earned an internet today sir!
ON-TOPIC: Sandbox games are boring as hell. They have no place in a game based on Star Wars. I don't want to "make my own adventure." I want to veg out after a hard day's work and have my entertainment spoon-fed me like I was an invalid. So sue me. I'm looking forward to SWTOR and gave SWG a pass a month after launch.
I think WOW was the rise and fall of the Themepark style of mmo. The NGE was already done once, I feel like TOR is just the hard headed mindset that it wasnt the failed idea that was to blame but the players, they want to prove that themeparks are what people want because that what the execs choose to believe. It's a pretty stupid mindset I know, they even have the same PR guys Sony Used for the NGE, sad really.
"So what if people want to be Uncle Owen???!!!!??? "
Then next thing you know you'll be a charred corpse and all you get to do is log in and stare at the smoke coming off your body, that doesn't sound very fun. Certainly not worth subbing past the free month to do.
Content in SWG was in the form of mission terminals, which was lame when you really look back. Anyone else remember that dev interview/walkthrough of the game (google it) Raph Koster even said, we wanted to give players the tools to make their own content, but most people have little patience for that playstyle approach. http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/starwarsgalaxiesaned/video/6023592/star-wars-galaxies-an-empire-divided-developer-interview
I still think player generated content options is the way to go for a MMO, I know devs were talking a lot about it in 2003 and 2004 when they talked about future developments in MMO design, I know SWG and AC2 had some of it, but somehow this never lifted off in the MMO's that came after that. EQ2 has now something like player created books with their own written stories and other written content in them, but that's it. Ah yes, APB has the player created content too in the skin designs for tattoos, cars and shirts and such, it can be a great feature, I hope more MMO devs will implement things as such, it's odd that hardly any still have.
Maybe it was too much of a strain on the servers to have all these player generated content roaming around in the environment too. Still a shame.
I mean, I don't think sandbox elements and themepark elements are mutually exclusive in a MMORPG, even more, elements from both approaches can work together to enrichen a MMO world; you'd have the themepark elements that'd help you out finding your way in the large MMO world while questing and traveling from place to place, and the sandbox elements to be free to do your own thing and for the creative types to go wild.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
They are mutually exclusive in this game because the current systems they have in place would not work with open sandbox systems. For instance:
1. In order to allow things like open-world player housing, they would have to completely re-design the planet maps to allow for sprawling player ghettos. They would have to remove content everywhere to provide free space for housing.
2. In order to allow for a skill-based progression system, they would have to do away with their classes and then all of the class-specific content they have created. They would also have to do away with all of the class-specific items they have created.
3. In order to allow freaky aliens, they would have to alter many of cutscenes that rely on humanoid body features and remove the option for romance, etc.
4. In order to allow for a crafting system as complex as SWG, they would have to do away with their entire current character equipment and rewards systems.
5. In order to provide a free-roam space sim inside the game, they would basically have to make an entirely new game and slap in on top of the existing one.
Truly it isn't possible for them to give the sandbox fans what they want and not screw up the existing game at this point...
Also, I have to say that things like randomized mission terminals in SWG were not fun or immersive at all. They were simply the result of lazy developers who could not provide enough content for their own game, so they slapped on a randomizing encounter system and hoped that would appease people. For me, it certainly did not. Its the same crap that Cryptic does in every game because they are too lazy to design levels and interesting encounters themselves.
I wasn't saying that SW:TOR will be the game that will combine sandbox and themepark elements, merely that those 2 approaches aren't mutually exclusive.
Also, I agree that what some people call "sandbox" features sometimes nothing more than the devs being lazy or time challenged to put in enough content in their game.
A lack of themepark content doesn't automatically make a good sandbox MMO.
Regarding SW:TOR: crafting still has to be explained in detail yet, exploration which I think will be hugely possible in SW:TOR I'd consider one of the oldschool features, not the themepark ones.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with you that the two concepts could potentially work together... and I would love to see someone give it a try. However, the game would have to be designed around it from the very beginning.
I'm glad we agree about the mission ternimal concept sucking... that is one game design decision I hope is NEVER repeated in another MMO.
On a scale of 1 to 10 for socialization I give 10 to pre-cu SWG and TOR shall be something around 3. As reference WoW is 2.
I don't expect a tell hell anytime soon in TOR at all, it shall just be a click fest. A fun game nonetheless but still a click fest.
SWG sucked, so yeah the only people who played where dedicated SW fans playing with other SW fans, not much room for conflict.
Pre-Cu SWG community was nothing special for its time.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Wow, if I felt about a MMORPG as you feel about how SW:TOR will be, there would be no chance in hell that I'd be playing it, there are better, more fun things with my time to do. I would still be playing SWG if this is how I felt about the two.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I played SWG from beta till about 4 months after the NGE and CU.
Every MMO i have played since SWG has missed elements that for me make a game really good.
Sure SWG had lots of problems and bugs etc.. But what it did wright that no other game for no reason I can think of have copyed was there amazing Crafting and resorce managment system.
For me any game that has ecconamy / crafting / and resorce systems with the depth that SWG's had then that games 50% there for me..
Resorce shifts, with differant qualitys etc... Customisable weapons and armors. Building houses and furniture... Player venders, Player run malls, Citys...
Having to go out into the world to survey to find good deposits of resorces, setup your harvesters and bingo ur a resorce traider...
What I ask myself is WHY has no other MMO followed this modle, and WHY have they all followed the simple WoW type crafting thats about as engaging as watching paint dry.. click click click craft... 1000s times.. Mining resorces nodes.... OMG stop its so boring...
I can only hope that they dont dumb down SWTOR so much its just not engaging enough for people over 12.
seriously. that crafting/resource system needs to be the standard in all mmorpgs. devs use that as a template just like holy trinity and then add their own take on it for their game.
Everyone wanted to be Uncle Owen in SWG, thats why so many tried grinding out Jedi, oh wait.
PS, if any one game should set the industry standard for crafting/economy it should be EVE.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
No need to argue. It was best but we are old now. Too many years passed everything changed. The community we used to are no longer exist. Its a shadow from past only. We need to move on.
Very very old mmorpg gamer
was a Jedi before NGE, before Kayss, Before CU cant evern remember the name of toon:)
That's purely in your opinion ofc, I'd played mmos years before 'old' SWG hit and personally I find several mmos far superior to what that game has ever been. But ofc then that is purely my opinion as well.
Your comment about the changed community and the need to move on are spot on though.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."