Funny example of Bioware saying 'SWTOR is OUR story, not YOURS'

Thane

Originally posted by agaga

This is a journalism piece from www.examiner.com by the gaming journalist Shawna Blumenschtein

http://www.examiner.com/girl-gamer-in-canada/bioware-s-the-old-republic-says-no-to-overweight-female-characters

Bioware’s The Old Republic says no to overweight female characters

Bioware’s upcoming MMORPG, The Old Republic, will allow players to create male or female characters. Gamers will have the option of slim, muscular, or fat for male characters, but only slim and muscular for female characters. Why the difference? Shouldn’t there be equity in all things? Is this sexist? 

The weight of characters in video games is typically a non-issue. Games are like movies – escapism. Everything and everyone is usually pretty. However, since Bioware has allowed the creation of fat male characters, the lack of that option for female characters becomes a potential firestorm. 

Why shouldn’t women get the option to play heavier characters? Is there something offensive or off-putting about overweight women, but not men? Why is creating a fat man “okay,” but a fat woman is “wrong?” Why include the overweight body type in the first place (a decision that seems to indicate a desire to represent everyone, including heavier gamers) but then exclude women? These are the questions such a disparity raises. 

To date, the issue has generated forty-one pages of discussion in The Old Republic’s official forums. An associated poll, in which 792 community members voted, indicates 25% think this decision (or rather, omission) is sexist. The issue was also discussed in episode sixty-seven of the podcast, TOROcast. 

Rather than being sexist, this omission says more about our culture’s ideas of gender, gender stereotypes, and body image. Western culture tells us that women shouldn’t be fat. When, since Roseanne Barr, has a television show featured a heavy woman? None that I can think of. But there are reams of sitcoms that pair heavy men – who likely wouldn’t be deemed attractive by traditional standards – with slim, pretty women. The shows According to Jim, King of Queens, and Still Standing are some examples. The opposite pairing is almost non-existent. 

Or perhaps there’s something a little more, shall we say, insidious going on here. Perhaps Bioware is of the mind that The Old Republic will only appeal to male gamers, and that no male gamer would want to create a fat female character and then be stuck staring at her for hundreds of hours. In which case, wake up, Bioware. Women game. And some men find heavy women attractive.

 

soo, you are saying it will only appeal to male gamers eh? because "we can play fat chars but you cannot"....

1) why cant you play a fat man? it's called RPG :> you do not need to create YOURSELF ingame actually... just incase no one mentioned that lately.

2) i'd actually say to remove "fat" men too, but since i didnt see the ingame versions of "fat men" yet i would't jump on that train (could be bulky after all..)

3) why the hell should a bloody jedi/sith should be fat!?

 

 

 

uh and talking of sexist: "Why shouldn’t women get the option to play heavier characters?" 

how do you call that? 

the propper version would be "why shouldnt players get the option to play heavier female characters?"

sex-neutral statement, not implieing all men have to play male chars, and everyone who does so is overweighted him/herself. for someone sounding like alice schwarzer you do not take it that serious in the end eh? *G*

Tazlor

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by agaga

The real point of this article, which nobody seems to have noticed is that:

- It seems to imply that SWTOR's character customisation is not very sophisticated since it doesn't allow for the height/weight scaling that so many MMOs have been featuring as standard (even SWG in 2003 let you do that)

- it also says something about the mindset of the Bioware developers. That they're insufficiently skilled to be able to balance  female shoulder/boob/height dimensions as they can for male shoulder/chest/height; or that they're too lazy to do so, thinking that we customers won't want to play or see fat females anwyay; or that they're too PC to allow us to make heavyset females; or some other reason I can't think of.

Not true?

No, it says there is no financially sound reason to spend the money to develop the code to create fat femaly body types (and all of the clothing/armor that goes with it) when its  likely that less than .000001% of the characters created will employ the mechanics.

Has nothing to do with being lazy or inept, simple economics folks.

yes but if they admitted it was simple economins, they wouldn't have anything to scream sexist at.

Swanea

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.  By a lot.

 

But, current society, males are "allowed", and still "good looking" and it's the "norm" for males to be chubby and fat.  But females are not supposed to be.  Or if they are, they are weird and different and abnormal. 

But this is still a male dominated society that keep treading towards a bigger person.

 

In regards to the game, I could care less if you could make fat females.  If this was an RP game like SWG, I would say you sure should.  But since it isn't, meh.

Ramonski7

Originally posted by agaga

The real point of this article, which nobody seems to have noticed is that:

- It seems to imply that SWTOR's character customisation is not very sophisticated since it doesn't allow for the height/weight scaling that so many MMOs have been featuring as standard (even SWG in 2003 let you do that)

- it also says something about the mindset of the Bioware developers. That they're insufficiently skilled to be able to balance  female shoulder/boob/height dimensions as they can for male shoulder/chest/height; or that they're too lazy to do so, thinking that we customers won't want to play or see fat females anwyay; or that they're too PC to allow us to make heavyset females; or some other reason I can't think of.

Not true?

Actually for me it shows the opposite. That BW has took the time to create specific models for each male and female race. And not cut corners by making a unisex model that it morphed to mimic male and female models with different textures slapped on them.

 

It also says something about the mindset of the developers to lean on the side of caution when it comes to issues of younger female players that already deal with enough pressures in RL, than to be bothered by some jerk who decides to create a fat chick character to mimic a female player who's real name he has learned in the attempt to ridicule her. Reminds me of that one song Daughters. Maybe BW devs are fathers themselves and are willing to take this PR hit for them. Boys do have tougher mentalities.

whilan

Until i see what the models look like i'm not going to get all hyped up over this.  Perhaps there just wasn't enough of a reason to warrant it (maybe the difference between the med and left out fat version wasn't that much of a difference to worry about.)

Also people take games way too seriously on these forums, please stop imagining things that are not there.  Until the womens rights organization has a problem with it. I won't. I haven't heard anything coming form them yet and in case i lost you i'm referring to the discrimination that being claimed on BW.

Next thing people are going to say is they are upset that mario was "fat" but princess toadstool wasn't.   Unless theres a clear discrimination thing going on when the game goes live i wouldn't worry about it.  Just to show how much fat models get used out of about 2 thousand people i've met on EQ (unique) i saw 1 female ogre and that was played by a male.

I also did some searching on the examiner, and this is closer to a Wiki then an actual news station.  While it is somewhat monitored most anyone can write for them, they get paid around a buck to a buck and half per article.  As long as it seems okay they will take it.  One poster even stated on http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/news/thread?tid=7b297b5d020f0f39&hl=en that its more like blog post then actual news, a few points down a google employee stated they will look into the fact that examiners "reports" are not actual news and can't be used as such.

All i'm saying with that last line is make sure what she's claiming is actually legit and research alot before just taking what she says, shes also taking what BW has right now, not what they have at release, to judge a game before it's even hit open beta and this far away isn't really fair.  All in all i'm going to wait to see how much of a problem this really is. Otherwise i'm going to figure it was a financial move on BW end to not include something that will probably not be used.  No sense wasting money for other things on a feature that probably won't be used. 

Although to stay consistent (this is me being objective or trying to be) they should either include a 3rd option for females or remove the 3rd options for male. But thats up to BW if they think thats an issue.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Swanea

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.  By a lot.

 

But, current society, males are "allowed", and still "good looking" and it's the "norm" for males to be chubby and fat.  But females are not supposed to be.  Or if they are, they are weird and different and abnormal. 

But this is still a male dominated society that keep treading towards a bigger person.

 

In regards to the game, I could care less if you could make fat females.  If this was an RP game like SWG, I would say you sure should.  But since it isn't, meh.

Personally I think whether a game is a RP friendly game depends on the people playing it and their imaginativeness.

I agree that the issue is being blown way out of proportion, it's almost silly.

 

Some comments:

- I find it peculiar that not a lot of people have realized that the in the article stated allegation may or may not be an accurate description, but that it certainly doesn't have to be an accurate description of the situation at launch, where 'fat bodytypes' will or will not be available for both male and female characters.

 

- I think looking at the responses that like with other discussions, as is the trend in this forumsection but also other gameforums here on mmorpg.com, that this debate for some SW:TOR opponents hasn't been as much about the 'fat women' argument, but more as a convenient means, a strawman argument, to put SW:TOR and Bioware again in a negative light.

 

- It's certainly the case that in the media and advertisement healthy and beautiful men and women are favored, and that often comes with young, and slimmer bodytypes. This is even more so in games, Lara Croft would probably have made less an impression when she would have had a humongous fat ass, or when she would have been anorexic-like skinny with no tits at all. It's not fair but certainly not uncommon that certain male and female physical appearances for the main characters are being favored in the gaming genre above other physical appearance types.

 

- While an argument can be made about fat female characters being able to be made ingame, it is also lacking: besides the proven point in other MMO's that hardly anybody would choose to create such avatars for their main characters, what about the other missing appearance types? What about the very elderly people, shouldn't they be offended that there aren't such characters to choose in SW:TOR or all those other MMO's? Or the real butt ugly looks for avatars to choose from? Or physically disabled or flawed, like characters with a hunchback or deformed arm? Or avatars with Down syndrome looks? People like that aren't represented in avatar appearance types as well.

kartool

Fact is, there were no fat humanoid chicks in Star Wars. It's a canon issue. 

Seriously, if we're gonna have this argument, then what about jedis in wheelchairs, or smugglers with speech impediments, or male sith who dress in drag? How far do you go to include everyone in a video game?

MMO.Maverick

Did he now? Well, since it was an offpanel discussion I guess it's hard to say that it's untrue, since it isn't something that is recorded in footage or a report. Unless you do have a source of course to back it up, but it isn't that important.

neorandom

Originally posted by agaga

This is a journalism piece from www.examiner.com by the gaming journalist Shawna Blumenschtein

http://www.examiner.com/girl-gamer-in-canada/bioware-s-the-old-republic-says-no-to-overweight-female-characters

Bioware’s The Old Republic says no to overweight female characters

Bioware’s upcoming MMORPG, The Old Republic, will allow players to create male or female characters. Gamers will have the option of slim, muscular, or fat for male characters, but only slim and muscular for female characters. Why the difference? Shouldn’t there be equity in all things? Is this sexist? 

The weight of characters in video games is typically a non-issue. Games are like movies – escapism. Everything and everyone is usually pretty. However, since Bioware has allowed the creation of fat male characters, the lack of that option for female characters becomes a potential firestorm. 

Why shouldn’t women get the option to play heavier characters? Is there something offensive or off-putting about overweight women, but not men? Why is creating a fat man “okay,” but a fat woman is “wrong?” Why include the overweight body type in the first place (a decision that seems to indicate a desire to represent everyone, including heavier gamers) but then exclude women? These are the questions such a disparity raises. 

To date, the issue has generated forty-one pages of discussion in The Old Republic’s official forums. An associated poll, in which 792 community members voted, indicates 25% think this decision (or rather, omission) is sexist. The issue was also discussed in episode sixty-seven of the podcast, TOROcast. 

Rather than being sexist, this omission says more about our culture’s ideas of gender, gender stereotypes, and body image. Western culture tells us that women shouldn’t be fat. When, since Roseanne Barr, has a television show featured a heavy woman? None that I can think of. But there are reams of sitcoms that pair heavy men – who likely wouldn’t be deemed attractive by traditional standards – with slim, pretty women. The shows According to Jim, King of Queens, and Still Standing are some examples. The opposite pairing is almost non-existent. 

Or perhaps there’s something a little more, shall we say, insidious going on here. Perhaps Bioware is of the mind that The Old Republic will only appeal to male gamers, and that no male gamer would want to create a fat female character and then be stuck staring at her for hundreds of hours. In which case, wake up, Bioware. Women game. And some men find heavy women attractive.

all fan boys of star wars are morbidly obese males.  some strange hot females like it for some reason, so it only makes sense that you can only make skinny nerd girls in game, and super fat dudes.  the real issue is if they have a high enough setting on the acne slider to make realistic star wars fan boys or not.

agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

Did he now? Well, since it was an offpanel discussion I guess it's hard to say that it's untrue, since it isn't something that is recorded in footage or a report. Unless you do have a source of course to back it up, but it isn't that important.

Apology accepted. Now back to the issue - why did Bioware allow users to make fat men but not fat women? Because they're cheap? Too PC? Not skilled enough? What do you think?

agaga

Originally posted by neorandom

Originally posted by agaga

snip

all fan boys of star wars are morbidly obese males.  some strange hot females like it for some reason, so it only makes sense that you can only make skinny nerd girls in game, and super fat dudes.  the real issue is if they have a high enough setting on the acne slider to make realistic star wars fan boys or not.

You forgot to mention:

- Grease-to-combover ratio

- Visible particle effect pizza reek

- Unchangeable scowl of nerdish forum superiority

CymTyr

Goodness. Next we'll be seeing threads about the Torchlight mmo (when that forum gets created) about how the mage is a skinny dude and the melee guy has huge muscles and the gross injustice of it all.

Look, the developers have the right to put whatever models they choose into their game. You don't see threads about (insert a famous mmo here) having no heavy women when some of the men are pretty huge.

Personally I think if it stays this way at launch it's to avoid abuse by animosity-fed teens and men who want to create an unflattering depiction of a woman/girl in their life. Nothing more.  Let's not read too much into this, shall we? These models may very well end up in the finished product

agaga

Originally posted by CymTyr

Goodness. Next we'll be seeing threads about the Torchlight mmo (when that forum gets created) about how the mage is a skinny dude and the melee guy has huge muscles and the gross injustice of it all.

Look, the developers have the right to put whatever models they choose into their game. You don't see threads about (insert a famous mmo here) having no heavy women when some of the men are pretty huge.

Personally I think if it stays this way at launch it's to avoid abuse by animosity-fed teens and men who want to create an unflattering depiction of a woman/girl in their life. Nothing more.  Let's not read too much into this, shall we? These models may very well end up in the finished product

"... to avoid abuse by animosity-fed teens and men who want to create an unflattering depiction of a woman/girl in their life,,,"

That can't be right. Those ideas sound mad and creepy.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by agaga

Apology accepted. Now back to the issue - why did Bioware allow users to make fat men but not fat women? Because they're cheap? Too PC? Not skilled enough? What do you think?

It isn't just an apology, but more of a leaving it behind since you have no proof (sources, links, etc) to back up your statement that you heard he was gay, and I don't find it important enough to continue the issue.

 

Regarding your questions, well, as a number of posters have already mentioned, it's all speculations at this point:

- did the article poster make a correct observation or interpreted it wrong, since that was the only (?) reference to that?

- Is it still the situation now in the current build of SW:TOR?

- we have no idea of knowing how the situation will be at launch, since it's all in progress and continuously changing now, a number of features won't be available in any current build of beta and certainly not in a finished state.

 

Personally, I find it always laughable when devs are considered to be not skilled enough or lazy, as you sometimes see posters comment, it more often is choosing priorities what is found more important to work on at one time. As said, since the game is still in full development, this is hardly something to worry about right now, for all the reasons mentioned above.

warmaster670

Originally posted by cyphers

Personally, I find it always laughable when devs are considered to be not skilled enough or lazy, as you sometimes see posters comment, it more often is choosing priorities what is found more important to work on at one time. As said, since the game is still in full development, this is hardly something to worry about right now, for all the reasons mentioned above.

There just mad that the devs of the game not only work harder in a month than they likely do ina  year but also earn more money.

 

Either that or they are to lazy to think of a better insult.

agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by agaga

Apology accepted. Now back to the issue - why did Bioware allow users to make fat men but not fat women? Because they're cheap? Too PC? Not skilled enough? What do you think?

It isn't just an apology, but more of a leaving it behind since you have no proof (sources, links, etc) to back up your statement that you heard he was gay, and I don't find it important enough to continue the issue.

 

Regarding your questions, well, as a number of posters have already mentioned, it's all speculations at this point:

- did the article poster make a correct observation or interpreted it wrong, since that was the only (?) reference to that?

- Is it still the situation now in the current build of SW:TOR?

- we have no idea of knowing how the situation will be at launch, since it's all in progress and continuously changing now, a number of features won't be available in any current build of beta and certainly not in a finished state.

 

Personally, I find it always laughable when devs are considered to be not skilled enough or lazy, as you sometimes see posters comment, it more often is choosing priorities what is found more important to work on at one time. As said, since the game is still in full development, this is hardly something to worry about right now, for all the reasons mentioned above.

So your answer is: economic reasons? Interesting.

MMO.Maverick

My arguments were pretty clear to understand. If you have trouble with interpreting them, I suggest you read my post better again, or maybe at a moment when you're more rested?

agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

My arguments were pretty clear to understand. If you have trouble with interpreting them, I suggest you read my post better again, or maybe at a moment when you're more rested?

Well, I reread it, as per your suggestion, and I'm still getting 'economic reasons'.

MMO.Maverick

'Economic reasons'? Tsk. Don't worry, I understand. A good night's sleep might help with the lacking interpretation . We'll get back at it later today.

agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

'Economic reasons'? Tsk. Don't worry, I understand. A good night's sleep might help with the lacking interpretation . We'll get back at it later today.

No need. Have a good rest.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

'Economic reasons'? Tsk. Don't worry, I understand. A good night's sleep might help with the lacking interpretation . We'll get back at it later today.

No need. Have a good rest.

? Thanks, but I've already been up for a few hours. I presumed it was getting late for you since you're from the US, but I could be wrong.

agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

'Economic reasons'? Tsk. Don't worry, I understand. A good night's sleep might help with the lacking interpretation . We'll get back at it later today.

No need. Have a good rest.

? Thanks, but I've already been up for a few hours. I presumed it was getting late for you since you're from the US, but I could be wrong.

Please keep your personal details to yourself. This forum is about Star Wars: The Old Republic. Thanks.

jusomdude

Well, you could be a fat female in SWG, and I don't think I ever did see a fat female in the couple years I played it.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by agaga

Originally posted by cyphers

'Economic reasons'? Tsk. Don't worry, I understand. A good night's sleep might help with the lacking interpretation . We'll get back at it later today.

No need. Have a good rest.

? Thanks, but I've already been up for a few hours. I presumed it was getting late for you since you're from the US, but I could be wrong.

Please keep your personal details to yourself. This forum is about Star Wars: The Old Republic. Thanks.

Certainly. If you can manage the same, then it should be alright. Thank you too.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by jusomdude

Well, you could be a fat female in SWG, and I don't think I ever did see a fat female in the couple years I played it.

There's indeed only very few MMO's that have that option, and even fewer created fat characters that you see running around in the higher levels in those MMO's.