I'd say I'm about as old timer as you can get and sandboxes are pretty shit to me.
Not because of the gameplay, but because most of them released nowhere near finished and promise things that never happen.
Only Indy developers make sandbox games and all are underfunded and have idiot PR people over hyping their products.
Or flag their game as "sandbox" cuz there's no content innit ! Sandbox is a freaking joke, it just means "hey dudes we made a game that has NO CONTENT" but it's good i swear u guys will create all the content in it.
Soon they gonna release MMORPGS with integrated world builder and peeps will have to do the dev's job and pay for it on top of that (in some cases tho it'll prolly give a better result than the crap we get these days).
You're a Hardcore Survivor!
You not only survived the zombie apocalypse, but did it with style! Your mastery of zombie knowledge, survival tactics, and weaponry is nearly unmatched. Congratulations, for you are hardcore!
Kind of a fallacy in the OP. In a sandbox game you're a faceless, non-heroic member of the masses. In a non-sandbox MMO, everyone is a hero, therefore you're still a faceless member of the masses. There is no such thing as a truly heroic experience in an MMO. The problem is with the genre, and not with sandbox vs. themepark.
Sandbox games can do fine. Eve is *the* sandbox game, and it's got a fanatically loyal following. The reason most sandboxes fail is that they're made by small dev teams with no funding and typically look and play like crap.
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Not played Darkfall then? There are players whose names are well known and encounters with them feared or sort after, they are far from nothing and very much make their mark on the player politics in the game. I'm sure the same can be said for EVE, even UO shards had players the made that shard stand out for something they did. Sandbox can very much make a player far from nothing in the community.
Just to put it out there I prefer being uncle owen. But the truth is I'm a minority and AAA devs simply won't cater to a minority. Being just some pilot in eve that's just a small part of the universe is why I play Eve. I'm just some guy trying to make a living. I love it but again not many will come home to play a real life simulation. You have three choices really. Support crap sandbox games like darkfall, mo or Xsyon hoping they will become Eve. Wait forever or just play themeparks
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Not played Darkfall then? There are players whose names are well known and encounters with them feared or sort after, they are far from nothing and very much make their mark on the player politics in the game. I'm sure the same can be said for EVE, even UO shards had players the made that shard stand out for something they did. Sandbox can very much make a player far from nothing in the community.
Those players aren't heroic, there just a bunch of uncle Owens in a better union.
Sandbox will never work untill they add "spades" a "bucket" and a few other bits and pieces to play around with. So far all the sandbox games i have eagerly awaited have been let down due to them being too sandboxy!
A game with nothing to do but imagination is not worth the electricity bill it takes to run it.....if i want to use my imagination i shut my eyes and dream......believe me i come up with far better than Darkfall etc!
The key word is "BALANCE"
EQ is still the most sandboxy i game i have ever played....a huge world that you could go wherever you wanted....you could explore, craft, fight or even just socilaise. What they did was give you lots of choices and they then they just left you alone to go and do what you wanted. Balance and content is what is important to me
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Sorry, but that is a logic flaw.
You mix up to different levels of realism, and thus make Sroek's statement seem false, but it is your correlation which is illogical.
Meta-Level: All Games are illusions.
Sub-Level: Measure of believability via diversity and individual impact as opposed to railroading.
These two are different spheres, and only by ignoring them you can make this statement, that "the illusion matters". Sorry, but it still is a flaw in the logic to argue like that.
Besides, when I want to read a book... I READ a book. I mean, if belivability is so easy created for you, nice for you. But when everyone is hero, no one is. When every action is heroic, none is. It just creates a deflation as with anything that is there too much, it loses it's value. Heroic acts need the contrast, the arbitrary, the average, just as identity need uniqueness. If everyone has the same background and story, you are nobody. You are just a number. You are just one more Jedi whose parents were killed, whose mentor dies, one more Smuggler with a Wookiee companion, one more stereotype. You adapt to the roles set out, and not make roles yourself. It's a BIG difference. One is illusionary choice, because it lives from the ONE SIMPLE fact that you don't see the other Jedi doing their same story. Games with real freedom where you choice matters do not need such artificial seperation to support the make belief, because the substance itself creates the identity, not some present single player experience.
Hopefully this will be clearer:
Bad Fiction: A book that reads, "He saved the world. He saved the world again."
Bad Fiction: A game where you save the world again and again, back to back.
The quality of the fiction (the "illusion") determines the quality of the participant's experience. Therefore the illusion matters.
The contrast between your accomplishments already exists in any themepark I can recall playing. That's one of the many factors of fiction quality, in fact!
IC, still I think it is a too passive way for me. I mean, that makes for me the difference between a book or movie and a MMO. In a MMO I want to be free to make my own fantasy. It is not like a book, where I follow the adventure of Captain Kirk or Peter Pan or Robin Hood. In a MMO I want to be a sub-set of "me". And I don't want to replay Obi-Wan or Vader or Han Solo, because simply... I would watch a movie or read a book then. That was my entire point of your book example.
Maybe I don't want to be Han Solo, but a blue Lizard who want to become the most famous dancer of Coruscant? Maybe I want to get rich as the most rich arms crafter of Corellia, or rich like Lando Calrissian? Maybe I just wanna be another pig-faced Pikeman for Jabba, doing some special mission? Maybe I want to be a Wookiee whose aim is to be a famous hairdresser? Why must fantasy be confined to "saving the galaxy, marry the girl and destroy the death star"?
When I want to read books, I read books. I don't play an "interactive movie"-like MMO. Ok, thats exxagerated, I know. But in essence, that is what I feel in those heavy theme parked & story driven MMOs. They are a golden cage. Gold is nice, but it is still a cage. Mind ya, I am no sandbox purist either. I value story as addition, say, in the fashion of LOTRO. Like some book quest now and then as epic conclusion or such. But what I miss is that VAST scope of selections and "stuff", MMos like UO, SWG and Vanguard had. I just don't get why *some* multi million dollar MMOs fail to incorporate both, story AND huge diversity of open, sandboxish stuff to do?
I mean, often when I log into a MMO, I just lack the patience to read a 5 min dialogue all the time; I lack the will to follow some grand epic story. Sometimes I just wanna harvest or craft for relaxation; I just wanna make some mindless grind - hunt some beasts. Sometimes I just wanna log in my Entertainer, make a gig and have a talk. I don't want to save the Galaxy 24/7, because I think heroic stories live from the singular moment, not from omnipresent drama. Some times I just want to do simple "stuff".
Try to play a Pen and Paper game (ideally NOT the combat heavy D&D). It teaches the value of the personal role over being a hero all the time. I play a Bard in my main group (The Dark Eye), who has NO will whatsoever to be a hero. He just wants to learn new songs and entertain people and get famous through Bards work. Yes, we do have adventures, too. But they happen, it's not what he is living for. In my 2nd group (here D&D 4) I am a Monk. Yes I CAN fight well, but my RP identity is seeking enlightenment and teaching spirituality. "A Jedi craves not for adventures"; remember that? That is what makes my characters "mine": I don't walk out to be heroic. I walk around to have MY OWN role, and then adventure happens as a sidenote once and then.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
IC, still I think it is a too passive way for me. I mean, that makes for me the difference between a book or movie and a MMO. In a MMO I want to be free to make my own fantasy. It is not like a book, where I follow the adventure of Captain Kirk or Peter Pan or Robin Hood. In a MMO I want to be a sub-set of "me". And I don't want to replay Obi-Wan or Vader or Han Solo, because simply... I would watch a movie or read a book then. That was my entire point of your book example.
Maybe I don't want to be Han Solo, but a blue Lizard who want to become the most famous dancer of Coruscant? Maybe I want to get rich as the most rich arms crafter of Corellia, or rich like Lando Calrissian? Maybe I just wanna be another pig-faced Pikeman for Jabba, doing some special mission? Maybe I want to be a Wookiee whose aim is to be a famous hairdresser? Why must fantasy be confined to "saving the galaxy, marry the girl and destroy the death star"?
When I want to read books, I read books. I don't play an "interactive movie"-like MMO. Ok, thats exxagerated, I know. But in essence, that is what I feel in those heavy theme parked & story driven MMOs. They are a golden cage. Gold is nice, but it is still a cage. Mind ya, I am no sandbox purist either. I value story as addition, say, in the fashion of LOTRO. Like some book quest now and then as epic conclusion or such. But what I miss is that VAST scope of selections and "stuff", MMos like UO, SWG and Vanguard had. I just don't get why *some* multi million dollar MMOs fail to incorporate both, story AND huge diversity of open, sandboxish stuff to do?
I mean, often when I log into a MMO, I just lack the patience to read a 5 min dialogue all the time; I lack the will to follow some grand epic story. Sometimes I just wanna harvest or craft for relaxation; I just wanna make some mindless grind - hunt some beasts. Sometimes I just wanna log in my Entertainer, make a gig and have a talk. I don't want to save the Galaxy 24/7, because I think heroic stories live from the singular moment, not from omnipresent drama. Some times I just want to do simple "stuff".
Overall, I personally agree that I would like to see a great, grand epic storyline incorporated with a large world that is pretty open. However, to the original statement, I don't think that is what the masses are looking for.
I think many are looking to be that hero of the story by actually being the hero. A heavy themed MMO appeals to the masses by inserting them into that story. The masses want to be entertained...the rarer individual wants to go down their own path.
Considering the staggering number of mergers in the game industry, the remaining corporations are profit driven. They will happily let the rare individuals down while providing for the masses (where the money is). Which does answer why you don't have a strong story-line in a massive world...it is less efficient for the corporations to accomplish. Why spend the money / effort to develop something that a relatively small portion of players actually want?
Sandbox will never work untill they add "spades" a "bucket" and a few other bits and pieces to play around with. So far all the sandbox games i have eagerly awaited have been let down due to them being too sandboxy!
A game with nothing to do but imagination is not worth the electricity bill it takes to run it.....if i want to use my imagination i shut my eyes and dream......believe me i come up with far better than Darkfall etc!
The key word is "BALANCE"
EQ is still the most sandboxy i game i have ever played....a huge world that you could go wherever you wanted....you could explore, craft, fight or even just socilaise. What they did was give you lots of choices and they then they just left you alone to go and do what you wanted. Balance and content is what is important to me
Sorry EQ is less than a sandbox than EvE. Like I said UO (and Second Life now that I think about it) are the only games I would consider true sandbox games. If you have to base progression on some sort of combat, then your world will revolve around combat. Crafting will be a slave to it, your avatar will be a slave to it, the whole virtual world would be a slave to how well you can fight. Not think, not imagine, not live. Fight. And if you don't learn how to fight bigger and badder mobs, you don't get the "mats" to progress further. Ridiculous.
Now don't get me wrong, combat progression is needed for certain roles. Hunters, adventurers and other thrill seekers. But in UO I could progress my character without even killing a single thing. Thief, begger, scribe, alchemist, builder. cook, blacksmith, bard, cartographer, you name it. It didn't revolve around welding a blade. In EQ you have to level your character to get better mats. You also have to do this in damn near every last mmo released after UO.
And EvE....ugh...if you still insist that EvE is sandbox/boxy/box-like then you have to include:
Because all of them have player driven economies, PvP, crafting and large worlds. These are not sandboxes to me, they are space simulators. The difference being that sandboxes are ground-based and space simulators are space-based. Unless of course you don't have to pilot and can take a shuttle, land on a planet and be a ressource miner that delivers his goods to a space port and never have to set foot in space again. Then you have a sandbox with vast potential to reach beyond one world. If only anyone could make a game like that....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Just to put it out there I prefer being uncle owen. But the truth is I'm a minority and AAA devs simply won't cater to a minority. Being just some pilot in eve that's just a small part of the universe is why I play Eve. I'm just some guy trying to make a living. I love it but again not many will come home to play a real life simulation. You have three choices really. Support crap sandbox games like darkfall, mo or Xsyon hoping they will become Eve. Wait forever or just play themeparks
I would have loved to just play Uncle Owen in EVE. However, everytime I started things really rolling those nasty stormtroopers would come around and force me to either become Luke or quit.
Overall, I personally agree that I would like to see a great, grand epic storyline incorporated with a large world that is pretty open. However, to the original statement, I don't think that is what the masses are looking for.
I think many are looking to be that hero of the story by actually being the hero. A heavy themed MMO appeals to the masses by inserting them into that story. The masses want to be entertained...the rarer individual wants to go down their own path.
Considering the staggering number of mergers in the game industry, the remaining corporations are profit driven. They will happily let the rare individuals down while providing for the masses (where the money is). Which does answer why you don't have a strong story-line in a massive world...it is less efficient for the corporations to accomplish. Why spend the money / effort to develop something that a relatively small portion of players actually want?
Ok, I don't claim to know what the masses want. But movies have had similar debates.
For instance, George Lucas always argued his Star Wars films were so short, because the mass audience would not watch movies longer than 90 minutes. So a lot of detail of the story suffers in Star Wars movies. But thats bollocks, Lord of the Rings was almost 3 hours long, and still it was a hit.
Or often we hear, people only watch movies with good endings or movies with a simple popcorn-Hollywood story, and that is just equally bollocks. Many complex and difficult to understand movies are roaring successes. And not half of them revolve around heroic stuff. I just assume these big studios think their audience is way more dumb and simple as they really are. I really can't hear this "the masses are so dense" anymore. People are way more open minded and willing to follow a good story, even if it breaks with the Hollywood cliche of "hero saves universe and gets Princess" blah blah. And, I am sorry to harp on it, that is what Erickson of TOR said: people can't identify with non humans. Yeah, thats why people play COWS with GUNS in WOW. Really, masses are not that dense and lacking imagination as some make them to be.
I mean, am I really the only one who has enough that entertainment must be like THIS:
Just to put it out there I prefer being uncle owen. But the truth is I'm a minority and AAA devs simply won't cater to a minority. Being just some pilot in eve that's just a small part of the universe is why I play Eve. I'm just some guy trying to make a living. I love it but again not many will come home to play a real life simulation. You have three choices really. Support crap sandbox games like darkfall, mo or Xsyon hoping they will become Eve. Wait forever or just play themeparks
I would have loved to just play Uncle Owen in EVE. However, everytime I started things really rolling those nasty stormtroopers would come around and force me to either become Luke or quit.
Well I'm sure even uncle Owen had to keep a blaster in the shed and wield a pitch fork when people tried to take his stuff. He was still just uncle Owen most if the time doing uncle Owen stuff.
I mean, often when I log into a MMO, I just lack the patience to read a 5 min dialogue all the time; I lack the will to follow some grand epic story. Sometimes I just wanna harvest or craft for relaxation; I just wanna make some mindless grind - hunt some beasts. Sometimes I just wanna log in my Entertainer, make a gig and have a talk. I don't want to save the Galaxy 24/7, because I think heroic stories live from the singular moment, not from omnipresent drama. Some times I just want to do simple "stuff".
Try to play a Pen and Paper game (ideally NOT the combat heavy D&D). It teaches the value of the personal role over being a hero all the time. I play a Bard in my main group (The Dark Eye), who has NO will whatsoever to be a hero. He just wants to learn new songs and entertain people and get famous through Bards work. Yes, we do have adventures, too. But they happen, it's not what he is living for. In my 2nd group (here D&D 4) I am a Monk. Yes I CAN fight well, but my RP identity is seeking enlightenment and teaching spirituality. "A Jedi craves not for adventures"; remember that? That is what makes my characters "mine": I don't walk out to be heroic. I walk around to have MY OWN role, and then adventure happens as a sidenote once and then.
Well clearly you've played different themepark games than I if you found a game with 5 mins of written dialogue, or 24/7 epic storylines.
In fact, the big themepark WOW basically offers everything you list in your first paragraph. The only thing missing is a sense of formalized gameplay around being an "entertainer" (although you can still goof off in Dalaran to the amusement of others; and people can be found doing such things quite often.)
I've played plenty of tabletop RPGs. By their nature, they're whatever the group wants. Which is why it's odd to say D&D 4th is combat-heavy; it's a tabletop role-playing game -- it is whatever the players and DM want it to be. In my experience, it's rare for people to want it to be about mundane things like farming or being bards, and common for people to want it to be about adventures and excitement. Because the game is whatever the group wants it to be, they still have ownership over the experience.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sandbox will never work untill they add "spades" a "bucket" and a few other bits and pieces to play around with. So far all the sandbox games i have eagerly awaited have been let down due to them being too sandboxy!
A game with nothing to do but imagination is not worth the electricity bill it takes to run it.....if i want to use my imagination i shut my eyes and dream......believe me i come up with far better than Darkfall etc!
The key word is "BALANCE"
EQ is still the most sandboxy i game i have ever played....a huge world that you could go wherever you wanted....you could explore, craft, fight or even just socilaise. What they did was give you lots of choices and they then they just left you alone to go and do what you wanted. Balance and content is what is important to me
Personally I think that EQ was one of the least sandboxy games out there. Even WoW is more sandboxy than EQ. Everything you did in EQ you can do in WoW, plus wow has more options on how to design your character, and what your going to accomplish that day.
EQ was fun for the time, but in no way was it a sandbox. Linear character development, no impact on the world, tunnell/bazaar selling equipment not as good as dropped, a market based almost exclusively on dropped gear, no politics other than guild wars (which can be done in any game). The only thing that makes it not a complete and total themepark was you could travel anywhere (which you can do in every game).
Basically no way to impact or influence the world in any way shape or form and only 1 way to advance your character - not too sandboxy.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Just to put it out there I prefer being uncle owen. But the truth is I'm a minority and AAA devs simply won't cater to a minority. Being just some pilot in eve that's just a small part of the universe is why I play Eve. I'm just some guy trying to make a living. I love it but again not many will come home to play a real life simulation. You have three choices really. Support crap sandbox games like darkfall, mo or Xsyon hoping they will become Eve. Wait forever or just play themeparks
I hope being an "Uncle Owen" becomes an established proverb for aspiring, heroes everywhere. ; )
I still maintain, that there will be a trend towards exactly this, especially with so many mmos; differentiation for individuals is higher on the agenda than before. Eg Personal Stories: It's only baby-steps that are still very narrow options and scripted... but it's realising there are different people out there with different preferences to craft a more unique experience:
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
This makes absolutely no sense, at all.
No it makes sense, he's right. The point of a sandbox (to me anyway) is that on the grand scale what you do is not relevant, but you are the hero of your OWN story, or you can be the hero of your guilds story.. But a sandbox should be set up so that every player doesnt beat the head of such and such clan to save such and such village, or kill the nasty boars that are constantly (for some reason every 5 mins too :P) harassing the widow farmer lady.
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
This makes absolutely no sense, at all.
No it makes sense, he's right. The point of a sandbox (to me anyway) is that on the grand scale what you do is not relevant, but you are the hero of your OWN story, or you can be the hero of your guilds story.. But a sandbox should be set up so that every player doesnt beat the head of such and such clan to save such and such village, or kill the nasty boars that are constantly (for some reason every 5 mins too :P) harassing the widow farmer lady.
Funny how that actually describes a themepark...
What a person does in a themepark is not relevant. You did it. Millions before you did it too. Millions after you will do it as well. You're not a hero...you're just another kid trying to enjoy the rides and not get bored.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Sandbox games are about earning the right to be well-known. A good sandbox game should make players stand out naturally through their actions. There isn't a player in EVE who doesn't know who SirMolle or The Mittani are. Or you've been living under an asteroid if you don't.
People make their own stories, and that's how it should be. You are a part of a world, not the focus of the world. And in EVE's case, people can be MAJOR parts of the universe. Asheron's Call is an example of a hybrid. And I distinctly remember certain people on various servers getting major recognition across the player base.
As a child, which do you think you would get bored with first:
Going to the same themepark every day...
Taking all your toys into the sandbox...
For many folks, have to ask - what changed?
That depends how good and big is the themepark and how many hours a day ar eyou playing int he Themepark?If your in the Themepark 24/7 then sure it your going to see everything pretty fast and it would get tiring pretty qucikly but I'm pretty sure just playing in a sandbox 24/7 you'll probably experience the same thing.Now if your onyl going to the themepark once a day you might do different things every day or different rides,games of chance and food vendors every day.
Now to the sandbox...it sounds good and can probably be just as much fun as the themepark for a few hours a day but you don't get to bring all your toys,you cna only use the toys the maker of the sandox chooses to make available to you adn whilst some of these toys are great, a lot of the time a few of them are boring or only appeal to a small group and some don't work at all.
Sandbox games are about earning the right to be well-known. A good sandbox game should make players stand out naturally through their actions. There isn't a player in EVE who doesn't know who SirMolle or The Mittani are. Or you've been living under an asteroid if you don't.
People make their own stories, and that's how it should be. You are a part of a world, not the focus of the world. And in EVE's case, people can be MAJOR parts of the universe. Asheron's Call is an example of a hybrid. And I distinctly remember certain people on various servers getting major recognition across the player base.
I do not recognize either of those names. Have not been living under an asteroid. Been playing off and on for over 5 years.
Then again, aside from a few spammers/scammers in Heim or Metro...and a few folks from the various militia - do not really know anybody.
Guess that would be one of those things folks are talking about though - can do your own thing for the most part, even in a game as steeped with PvP as EVE.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
As a child, which do you think you would get bored with first:
Going to the same themepark every day...
Taking all your toys into the sandbox...
For many folks, have to ask - what changed?
That depends how good and big is the themepark and how many hours a day ar eyou playing int he Themepark?If your in the Themepark 24/7 then sure it your going to see everything pretty fast and it would get tiring pretty qucikly but I'm pretty sure just playing in a sandbox 24/7 you'll probably experience the same thing.Now if your onyl going to the themepark once a day you might do different things every day or different rides,games of chance and food vendors every day.
Now to the sandbox...it sounds good and can probably be just as much fun as the themepark for a few hours a day but you don't get to bring all your toys,you cna only use the toys the maker of the sandox chooses to make available to you adn whilst some of these toys are great, a lot of the time a few of them are boring or only appeal to a small group and some don't work at all.
As a child, were you more likely to make friends at the themepark or in the sandbox? Did you talk more with strangers in the sandbox or at the themepark?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
As a child, which do you think you would get bored with first:
Going to the same themepark every day...
Taking all your toys into the sandbox...
For many folks, have to ask - what changed?
That depends how good and big is the themepark and how many hours a day ar eyou playing int he Themepark?If your in the Themepark 24/7 then sure it your going to see everything pretty fast and it would get tiring pretty qucikly but I'm pretty sure just playing in a sandbox 24/7 you'll probably experience the same thing.Now if your onyl going to the themepark once a day you might do different things every day or different rides,games of chance and food vendors every day.
Now to the sandbox...it sounds good and can probably be just as much fun as the themepark for a few hours a day but you don't get to bring all your toys,you cna only use the toys the maker of the sandox chooses to make available to you adn whilst some of these toys are great, a lot of the time a few of them are boring or only appeal to a small group and some don't work at all.
As a child, were you more likely to make friends at the themepark or in the sandbox? Did you talk more with strangers in the sandbox or at the themepark?
Definetly the sandbox, you'd bring people in to your story try and get them involved.. Themepark's there is no need to speak to anyone, you stand in line to wait your turn to ride an established, pre fab'd 'set begining and ending' ride that can be accomplished by yourself, unless you brought friends with you to join you in the first place.
As a child, which do you think you would get bored with first:
Going to the same themepark every day...
Taking all your toys into the sandbox...
For many folks, have to ask - what changed?
That depends how good and big is the themepark and how many hours a day ar eyou playing int he Themepark?If your in the Themepark 24/7 then sure it your going to see everything pretty fast and it would get tiring pretty qucikly but I'm pretty sure just playing in a sandbox 24/7 you'll probably experience the same thing.Now if your onyl going to the themepark once a day you might do different things every day or different rides,games of chance and food vendors every day.
Now to the sandbox...it sounds good and can probably be just as much fun as the themepark for a few hours a day but you don't get to bring all your toys,you cna only use the toys the maker of the sandox chooses to make available to you adn whilst some of these toys are great, a lot of the time a few of them are boring or only appeal to a small group and some don't work at all.
As a child, were you more likely to make friends at the themepark or in the sandbox? Did you talk more with strangers in the sandbox or at the themepark?
I was more likely to cooperate with friends and strangers to construct elaborate sand structures.
Comments
Or flag their game as "sandbox" cuz there's no content innit ! Sandbox is a freaking joke, it just means "hey dudes we made a game that has NO CONTENT" but it's good i swear u guys will create all the content in it.
Soon they gonna release MMORPGS with integrated world builder and peeps will have to do the dev's job and pay for it on top of that (in some cases tho it'll prolly give a better result than the crap we get these days).
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Kind of a fallacy in the OP. In a sandbox game you're a faceless, non-heroic member of the masses. In a non-sandbox MMO, everyone is a hero, therefore you're still a faceless member of the masses. There is no such thing as a truly heroic experience in an MMO. The problem is with the genre, and not with sandbox vs. themepark.
Sandbox games can do fine. Eve is *the* sandbox game, and it's got a fanatically loyal following. The reason most sandboxes fail is that they're made by small dev teams with no funding and typically look and play like crap.
Not played Darkfall then? There are players whose names are well known and encounters with them feared or sort after, they are far from nothing and very much make their mark on the player politics in the game. I'm sure the same can be said for EVE, even UO shards had players the made that shard stand out for something they did. Sandbox can very much make a player far from nothing in the community.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Not played Darkfall then? There are players whose names are well known and encounters with them feared or sort after, they are far from nothing and very much make their mark on the player politics in the game. I'm sure the same can be said for EVE, even UO shards had players the made that shard stand out for something they did. Sandbox can very much make a player far from nothing in the community.
Those players aren't heroic, there just a bunch of uncle Owens in a better union.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Sandbox will never work untill they add "spades" a "bucket" and a few other bits and pieces to play around with. So far all the sandbox games i have eagerly awaited have been let down due to them being too sandboxy!
A game with nothing to do but imagination is not worth the electricity bill it takes to run it.....if i want to use my imagination i shut my eyes and dream......believe me i come up with far better than Darkfall etc!
The key word is "BALANCE"
EQ is still the most sandboxy i game i have ever played....a huge world that you could go wherever you wanted....you could explore, craft, fight or even just socilaise. What they did was give you lots of choices and they then they just left you alone to go and do what you wanted. Balance and content is what is important to me
IC, still I think it is a too passive way for me. I mean, that makes for me the difference between a book or movie and a MMO. In a MMO I want to be free to make my own fantasy. It is not like a book, where I follow the adventure of Captain Kirk or Peter Pan or Robin Hood. In a MMO I want to be a sub-set of "me". And I don't want to replay Obi-Wan or Vader or Han Solo, because simply... I would watch a movie or read a book then. That was my entire point of your book example.
Maybe I don't want to be Han Solo, but a blue Lizard who want to become the most famous dancer of Coruscant? Maybe I want to get rich as the most rich arms crafter of Corellia, or rich like Lando Calrissian? Maybe I just wanna be another pig-faced Pikeman for Jabba, doing some special mission? Maybe I want to be a Wookiee whose aim is to be a famous hairdresser? Why must fantasy be confined to "saving the galaxy, marry the girl and destroy the death star"?
When I want to read books, I read books. I don't play an "interactive movie"-like MMO. Ok, thats exxagerated, I know. But in essence, that is what I feel in those heavy theme parked & story driven MMOs. They are a golden cage. Gold is nice, but it is still a cage. Mind ya, I am no sandbox purist either. I value story as addition, say, in the fashion of LOTRO. Like some book quest now and then as epic conclusion or such. But what I miss is that VAST scope of selections and "stuff", MMos like UO, SWG and Vanguard had. I just don't get why *some* multi million dollar MMOs fail to incorporate both, story AND huge diversity of open, sandboxish stuff to do?
I mean, often when I log into a MMO, I just lack the patience to read a 5 min dialogue all the time; I lack the will to follow some grand epic story. Sometimes I just wanna harvest or craft for relaxation; I just wanna make some mindless grind - hunt some beasts. Sometimes I just wanna log in my Entertainer, make a gig and have a talk. I don't want to save the Galaxy 24/7, because I think heroic stories live from the singular moment, not from omnipresent drama. Some times I just want to do simple "stuff".
Try to play a Pen and Paper game (ideally NOT the combat heavy D&D). It teaches the value of the personal role over being a hero all the time. I play a Bard in my main group (The Dark Eye), who has NO will whatsoever to be a hero. He just wants to learn new songs and entertain people and get famous through Bards work. Yes, we do have adventures, too. But they happen, it's not what he is living for. In my 2nd group (here D&D 4) I am a Monk. Yes I CAN fight well, but my RP identity is seeking enlightenment and teaching spirituality. "A Jedi craves not for adventures"; remember that? That is what makes my characters "mine": I don't walk out to be heroic. I walk around to have MY OWN role, and then adventure happens as a sidenote once and then.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Overall, I personally agree that I would like to see a great, grand epic storyline incorporated with a large world that is pretty open. However, to the original statement, I don't think that is what the masses are looking for.
I think many are looking to be that hero of the story by actually being the hero. A heavy themed MMO appeals to the masses by inserting them into that story. The masses want to be entertained...the rarer individual wants to go down their own path.
Considering the staggering number of mergers in the game industry, the remaining corporations are profit driven. They will happily let the rare individuals down while providing for the masses (where the money is). Which does answer why you don't have a strong story-line in a massive world...it is less efficient for the corporations to accomplish. Why spend the money / effort to develop something that a relatively small portion of players actually want?
Sorry EQ is less than a sandbox than EvE. Like I said UO (and Second Life now that I think about it) are the only games I would consider true sandbox games. If you have to base progression on some sort of combat, then your world will revolve around combat. Crafting will be a slave to it, your avatar will be a slave to it, the whole virtual world would be a slave to how well you can fight. Not think, not imagine, not live. Fight. And if you don't learn how to fight bigger and badder mobs, you don't get the "mats" to progress further. Ridiculous.
Now don't get me wrong, combat progression is needed for certain roles. Hunters, adventurers and other thrill seekers. But in UO I could progress my character without even killing a single thing. Thief, begger, scribe, alchemist, builder. cook, blacksmith, bard, cartographer, you name it. It didn't revolve around welding a blade. In EQ you have to level your character to get better mats. You also have to do this in damn near every last mmo released after UO.
And EvE....ugh...if you still insist that EvE is sandbox/boxy/box-like then you have to include:
Star Wars Combine
Stars' Empire
Pardus
Vendetta Online
Because all of them have player driven economies, PvP, crafting and large worlds. These are not sandboxes to me, they are space simulators. The difference being that sandboxes are ground-based and space simulators are space-based. Unless of course you don't have to pilot and can take a shuttle, land on a planet and be a ressource miner that delivers his goods to a space port and never have to set foot in space again. Then you have a sandbox with vast potential to reach beyond one world. If only anyone could make a game like that....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I would have loved to just play Uncle Owen in EVE. However, everytime I started things really rolling those nasty stormtroopers would come around and force me to either become Luke or quit.
Ok, I don't claim to know what the masses want. But movies have had similar debates.
For instance, George Lucas always argued his Star Wars films were so short, because the mass audience would not watch movies longer than 90 minutes. So a lot of detail of the story suffers in Star Wars movies. But thats bollocks, Lord of the Rings was almost 3 hours long, and still it was a hit.
Or often we hear, people only watch movies with good endings or movies with a simple popcorn-Hollywood story, and that is just equally bollocks. Many complex and difficult to understand movies are roaring successes. And not half of them revolve around heroic stuff. I just assume these big studios think their audience is way more dumb and simple as they really are. I really can't hear this "the masses are so dense" anymore. People are way more open minded and willing to follow a good story, even if it breaks with the Hollywood cliche of "hero saves universe and gets Princess" blah blah. And, I am sorry to harp on it, that is what Erickson of TOR said: people can't identify with non humans. Yeah, thats why people play COWS with GUNS in WOW. Really, masses are not that dense and lacking imagination as some make them to be.
I mean, am I really the only one who has enough that entertainment must be like THIS:
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/259982/100_movie_clichs_that_just_wont_die.html
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I would have loved to just play Uncle Owen in EVE. However, everytime I started things really rolling those nasty stormtroopers would come around and force me to either become Luke or quit.
Well I'm sure even uncle Owen had to keep a blaster in the shed and wield a pitch fork when people tried to take his stuff. He was still just uncle Owen most if the time doing uncle Owen stuff.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Well clearly you've played different themepark games than I if you found a game with 5 mins of written dialogue, or 24/7 epic storylines.
In fact, the big themepark WOW basically offers everything you list in your first paragraph. The only thing missing is a sense of formalized gameplay around being an "entertainer" (although you can still goof off in Dalaran to the amusement of others; and people can be found doing such things quite often.)
I've played plenty of tabletop RPGs. By their nature, they're whatever the group wants. Which is why it's odd to say D&D 4th is combat-heavy; it's a tabletop role-playing game -- it is whatever the players and DM want it to be. In my experience, it's rare for people to want it to be about mundane things like farming or being bards, and common for people to want it to be about adventures and excitement. Because the game is whatever the group wants it to be, they still have ownership over the experience.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Personally I think that EQ was one of the least sandboxy games out there. Even WoW is more sandboxy than EQ. Everything you did in EQ you can do in WoW, plus wow has more options on how to design your character, and what your going to accomplish that day.
EQ was fun for the time, but in no way was it a sandbox. Linear character development, no impact on the world, tunnell/bazaar selling equipment not as good as dropped, a market based almost exclusively on dropped gear, no politics other than guild wars (which can be done in any game). The only thing that makes it not a complete and total themepark was you could travel anywhere (which you can do in every game).
Basically no way to impact or influence the world in any way shape or form and only 1 way to advance your character - not too sandboxy.
Venge Sunsoar
This is very true. I have tons of different interests in RL. I want to have fun when I play a game not feel like the game is a second job / life.
I hope being an "Uncle Owen" becomes an established proverb for aspiring, heroes everywhere. ; )
I still maintain, that there will be a trend towards exactly this, especially with so many mmos; differentiation for individuals is higher on the agenda than before. Eg Personal Stories: It's only baby-steps that are still very narrow options and scripted... but it's realising there are different people out there with different preferences to craft a more unique experience:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
This makes absolutely no sense, at all.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
No it makes sense, he's right. The point of a sandbox (to me anyway) is that on the grand scale what you do is not relevant, but you are the hero of your OWN story, or you can be the hero of your guilds story.. But a sandbox should be set up so that every player doesnt beat the head of such and such clan to save such and such village, or kill the nasty boars that are constantly (for some reason every 5 mins too :P) harassing the widow farmer lady.
Funny how that actually describes a themepark...
What a person does in a themepark is not relevant. You did it. Millions before you did it too. Millions after you will do it as well. You're not a hero...you're just another kid trying to enjoy the rides and not get bored.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Sandbox games are about earning the right to be well-known. A good sandbox game should make players stand out naturally through their actions. There isn't a player in EVE who doesn't know who SirMolle or The Mittani are. Or you've been living under an asteroid if you don't.
People make their own stories, and that's how it should be. You are a part of a world, not the focus of the world. And in EVE's case, people can be MAJOR parts of the universe. Asheron's Call is an example of a hybrid. And I distinctly remember certain people on various servers getting major recognition across the player base.
That depends how good and big is the themepark and how many hours a day ar eyou playing int he Themepark?If your in the Themepark 24/7 then sure it your going to see everything pretty fast and it would get tiring pretty qucikly but I'm pretty sure just playing in a sandbox 24/7 you'll probably experience the same thing.Now if your onyl going to the themepark once a day you might do different things every day or different rides,games of chance and food vendors every day.
Now to the sandbox...it sounds good and can probably be just as much fun as the themepark for a few hours a day but you don't get to bring all your toys,you cna only use the toys the maker of the sandox chooses to make available to you adn whilst some of these toys are great, a lot of the time a few of them are boring or only appeal to a small group and some don't work at all.
I do not recognize either of those names. Have not been living under an asteroid. Been playing off and on for over 5 years.
Then again, aside from a few spammers/scammers in Heim or Metro...and a few folks from the various militia - do not really know anybody.
Guess that would be one of those things folks are talking about though - can do your own thing for the most part, even in a game as steeped with PvP as EVE.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
As a child, were you more likely to make friends at the themepark or in the sandbox? Did you talk more with strangers in the sandbox or at the themepark?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Definetly the sandbox, you'd bring people in to your story try and get them involved.. Themepark's there is no need to speak to anyone, you stand in line to wait your turn to ride an established, pre fab'd 'set begining and ending' ride that can be accomplished by yourself, unless you brought friends with you to join you in the first place.
I was more likely to cooperate with friends and strangers to construct elaborate sand structures.