The distinction is accessibility. A game that starts easy is accessible, even if it ends hard. But knowing this doesn't exactly give us any revolutionary insight. To truly understand casual, we must first dig deep into specifically what makes a game inaccessible -- what makes it hardcore.
Six things that make a game hardcore:
Difficult controls
Overwhelming options
Prerequisite knowledge
Abstract memorization
Unclear goals
Unclear solutions
Six things that do not make a game hardcore:
Challenge
Trial and Error
Strategy
Theme
Repetition
Depth / Graduated objectives
Funny, but Second Life actually qualifies as Hardcore under these circumstances. The only thing I'd ever thought was hardcore about SL was what happened behind opaque prims on private islands. It's not really a game though so it's not all that applicable.
Hardcore people use DOS or unix shell command lines.
Casuals use GUI interfaces like Windows or Gnome or Mac crap.
If you don't know shell scrupting you are just a lazy bitch.
The distinction is accessibility. A game that starts easy is accessible, even if it ends hard. But knowing this doesn't exactly give us any revolutionary insight. To truly understand casual, we must first dig deep into specifically what makes a game inaccessible -- what makes it hardcore.
Six things that make a game hardcore:
Difficult controls
Overwhelming options
Prerequisite knowledge
Abstract memorization
Unclear goals
Unclear solutions
Six things that do not make a game hardcore:
Challenge
Trial and Error
Strategy
Theme
Repetition
Depth / Graduated objectives
Funny, but Second Life actually qualifies as Hardcore under these circumstances. The only thing I'd ever thought was hardcore about SL was what happened behind opaque prims on private islands. It's not really a game though so it's not all that applicable.
Hardcore people use DOS or unix shell command lines.
Casuals use GUI interfaces like Windows or Gnome or Mac crap.
If you don't know shell scrupting you are just a lazy bitch.
People keep forgetting (or are unwilling to admit it) that we are wired differently.
It has nothing to do with being told what to do. It has everything to do with a conscious choice of how one wants to spend their time.
People who are invested in forging a world are the prime audience for a sandbox. These are the people who are very much engaged in the social part of the game and the player interactions. People who want to do quests and engage in pre-made content are there for entertainment.
And they are both very differnet experiences.
Well said, but would you translate that into being "there is a larger market of people who are casual compared to hardcore"?
It is more than possible that there are more casual players than hard core players.
The problem with "gamers" (or any demographic of people who have something they are passionate about) is that they tend to see the world solely through their eyes.
that's why I keep seeing the "people are unimaginiative and have to have their hands held".
It's essentially Plato's "Philosopher Priests". The argument being that only the Philosophers are enlightented enough to govern and everyone else should just stay in their own caste and not worry about higher thinking.
So essentially we have a self proclaimed group of people who "know better".
People have imaginations. They use their imaginations all the time. Whether it's to fantasize about that person they see on the bus or to take them away from their dull dreary job while imagining having won the lottery.
but not every person wants to dress up as cos-play or sit down in front of a computer and play video games or spend time wandering and crafting and spending effort making and trading things and fighting over imaginary territory.
That's why my friend felt that SWG was like a second job. He was playing the sandbox. He was playing it how one plays sandboxes as he was a crafter in demand and was keeping track of orders and making things for people, figuring out the market, etc. Then he realized that with the effort he was putting into the game he could just as well make his own business and make REAL money.
He's not interested in doing that but that was his thought. So he discovered everquest and that game was more to his liking.
People have to realize that setting someone in front of a computer and telling them they can do whatever they want is not necessarily great game play.
Why?
Because they have to "want" to be a crafter/explorer/politician/entertainer/warrior etc at the outset. And saying to someone that they are going to spend their time "living" in this world feels flat to me because if they are not driven to "live" in an imaginary world all it is going to be is drudgery.
Games with quests give people a spine to which they can afix their entertainment. Games that make you seek out an existence are games where people have to WANT to seek out that existence. And that goes back to my original statement that people are wired differently and that it's a hard sell to convince someone that existing in an "imaginary" world and figuring things out on your own is fun.
Some people like to, in real life, be adventurers and go out into the bush and live off the land. and some people just want to learn about the bush from their guided tour.
Has nothign to do with the quality of the person and everything to do with how they like to experience things.
Though I wonder if our hardcore sandbox people would be out in the jungle or bush or "wherever" and living off of the land or if they tend to hike in the national parks.
And what they would say if one of these world traveler adventureres said that they weren't really experiencing nature and that they were playing it safe.
I think this highlights the huge potential mmorpgs have that seems untapped, because of market conditions/tastes.
What would be interesting is if one of the great mmo themeparks of today, was rebuilt to be the great mmo sandbox of tomorrow.
Did my 3 weeks hiking over mountains, forests etc and camping & cooking etc and travelling over 00's of kms, not in an mmo but in June, outdoors. Makes you enjoy mmos that much more!
Btw: OP one of the best threads I've read for a while!
I don't know why people in general seem not to like sandbox games rather only why I don't.
I don't think the difference between a sandbox player and a themepark player is that sandboxers are intelligent creative types that love freedom and themepark players are ignorant sheep that need to be told what to do. I mean really if anything screams I am a egotistical douche it is statements like that.
See I judge a game based on two things, emotional response and more objective criteria, like a film critic almost. So when I play a game I look at things like how exciting, scary or beautiful is it? But I also look at stuff like possible meanings and how that is conveyed in the game, how do characters and levels and such develope and what that might convey. A game can be interesting if it only has one, but I think you really need a game to be both emotionally and intellectually stimulating to be really good.
Now of the sandbox MMOs I have played, and I have played a lot, none I have found to be very good, the reason I think is that they are not emotionally nor intellectually stimulating. An example of a game (not an MMO I know) that I think is both emotionallly and intellectually stimulating is Bioshock, it is beautifully, kind of scary at times and exciting at others, and it has all this symbolism and this intricate story to chew on the whole time, a great game with a great story and equally great game play.
Sandbox games though don't have either, I play them and I feel like the developers didn't but much attention into these aspects of the game. Ultimately I think games are art, you can have high art or low art, abstract or realism, but they are art. Even if a game approaches a subject with all the merrit of a hamhanded action movie, it is still art just not very good, and you can even like it in a "it is so bad it is good" kind of way. Artistically I can't figure out what sandbox games are suppose to be about, they seem to be more simulations, like a social experiment, rather than a game or indeed art. It is the highly open ended nature that kills this aspect of the game I think, developers need a certain amount of control if they hope to try and add depth in terms of art to a game. Sandoxes conversely seem to be heavily reliant on systems and go into a lot of depth with those systems, which I guess is a math majors wet dream but not something I find intellectually or emotionally satisfying because I don't much care about economic simulation or whatever. Sandbox games seem to be for big science or math nerds, or programmers themselves, where as I am more of a philosophy and art nerd. This is why I have come to belive that different people just want flatout different things from a game, sandbox players seem to want a hobby something to indulge their interest, I am looking for an experience that hopefully has some artistic merrit to it.
Granted I am not saying that themepark games are delivering these really great works of art, there is nothing like Bioshock out there and certainly nothing that is the Godfather of games, much less MMOs, but they try. That is why I like WoW so much it doesn't have the highest artistic merrits but it has some, and good gameplay to boot, pretty much better than the other MMOs I have played, and this makes me think that eventually MMOs will get really great. It is the "themepark" format that I think has more potential to deliver the type of game I am really looking for rather than the sandbox format.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I don't know why people in general seem not to like sandbox games rather only why I don't.
I don't think the difference between a sandbox player and a themepark player is that sandboxers are intelligent creative types that love freedom and themepark players are ignorant sheep that need to be told what to do. I mean really if anything screams I am a egotistical douche it is statements like that.
See I judge a game based on two things, emotional response and more objective criteria, like a film critic almost. So when I play a game I look at things like how exciting, scary or beautiful is it? But I also look at stuff like possible meanings and how that is conveyed in the game, how do characters and levels and such develope and what that might convey. A game can be interesting if it only has one, but I think you really need a game to be both emotionally and intellectually stimulating to be really good.
Now of the sandbox MMOs I have played, and I have played a lot, none I have found to be very good, the reason I think is that they are not emotionally nor intellectually stimulating. An example of a game (not an MMO I know) that I think is both emotionallly and intellectually stimulating is Bioshock, it is beautifully, kind of scary at times and exciting at others, and it has all this symbolism and this intricate story to chew on the whole time, a great game with a great story and equally great game play.
Sandbox games though don't have either, I play them and I feel like the developers didn't but much attention into these aspects of the game. Ultimately I think games are art, you can have high art or low art, abstract or realism, but they are art. Even if a game approaches a subject with all the merrit of a hamhanded action movie, it is still art just not very good, and you can even like it in a "it is so bad it is good" kind of way. Artistically I can't figure out what sandbox games are suppose to be about, they seem to be more simulations, like a social experiment, rather than a game or indeed art. It is the highly open ended nature that kills this aspect of the game I think, developers need a certain amount of control if they hope to try and add depth in terms of art to a game. Sandoxes conversely seem to be heavily reliant on systems and go into a lot of depth with those systems, which I guess is a math majors wet dream but not something I find intellectually or emotionally satisfying because I don't much care about economic simulation or whatever. Sandbox games seem to be for big science or math nerds, or programmers themselves, where as I am more of a philosophy and art nerd. This is why I have come to belive that different people just want flatout different things from a game, sandbox players seem to want a hobby something to indulge their interest, I am looking for an experience that hopefully has some artistic merrit to it.
Granted I am not saying that themepark games are delivering these really great works of art, there is nothing like Bioshock out there and certainly nothing that is the Godfather of games, much less MMOs, but they try. That is why I like WoW so much it doesn't have the highest artistic merrits but it has some, and good gameplay to boot, pretty much better than the other MMOs I have played, and this makes me think that eventually MMOs will get really great. It is the "themepark" format that I think has more potential to deliver the type of game I am really looking for rather than the sandbox format.
I didn't like Bioshock. A lot of times I couldn't tell what to shoot at. The game actually hurt my eyes after awhile. The short movie clips were the best thing about it for me but I was trying to play a game, not watch a movie. I won't try WoW because I find the art too cartoony.
Sandbox games are a hell of a lot more emotional and stimulating to me. Emotional highs and lows are extreme when you can kill someone and take all of their stuff or be trade ganked by someone in an entirely player controlled economy. It feels pretty epic when you create a city with your friends and then line the ramparts with the archers as invaders come riding down the hill on hundreds on mounts to try and take it from you. They are also extremely competitive which is a lot more stimulating to me since no mob's artificial intelligence can top the challenge of another persons human intelligence and creativity.
I understand what you are saying but I think that sandbox games offer more emotions and stimulation for certain people but it is not as often and not as immediate as themepark games can be so perhaps that is the biggest difference. Themepark games are a lot more casual friendly besides the original Everquest (which felt very sandboxy without instances and a huge world to explore and a bigger sense of community).
Not saying that you are a sheep for playing those types of games (especially Guildwars since you can create your own builds that no one else uses for a feeling of being truly unique and that takes a lot of intelligence and creativity to be the one who starts trends of good builds to use) but I am saying that good leaders shine more in sandbox games. You do not have enough player freedom for leaders to shine nearly as much. There is no building empires, not as much economical opportunities, and a stronger sense of community (auction houses and LFG spammers just make me feel like another scrub thats no different than the rest and the same goes with the way they usually do instances and having to do quests to unlock content and make it to your next instance . ..), and usually required to do the same quests as everyone else and go down the same storyline to unlock more content.
I'll use AoC as an example since I recently tried to get into it again:
"Hey Legolas!"
"Sup Meatflap!!!"
"Where have you been?"
"Oh I am the sole survivor of a ship that wrecked a few hours ago . .. just got that blacksmith to break my slave chains for me."
"Weird . .."
"What?"
"Same exact thing just happened to me! I am a slave too and have this crazy tattoo I am trying to figure out . .. you should join me."
"Funny coincidence! I have a tatoo in that same spot. I wonder what it means? What are you doing now?"
"Oh I am just headed over to some chumps house to get some baddies . .. that house right over there."
"Oh I already cleared them out a couple hours ago so don't worry. Check out what he gave me for it!"
"What the hell? He just asked me to do the same thing only a few minutes ago . ..?"
"Sounds like a trap! Maybe he found out your a slave and is setting up an ambush?"
"Yeah you could be right. Let's get out of here!"
"Where should we go?"
"Whoa whatever that is over the mountain definitely looks like its worth checking out! Maybe there is some treasure or something . ..?"
"Good idea! . ..*bump* What the hell??!? There is some sort of invisible barrier blocking the way."
"What is that? Weird! Lets try some running jumps . .." *BUMP!* "Ouch!!!"
"This is no good. We are going to have to go around."
"What are you freaks doing? lol"
"Trying to get around this wall! Do you know the way?"
"Nah I am just a slave who was shipwrecked a few minutes ago . .. trying to figure out where I got this tatoo . .. what wall?"
"Umm thats a little wierd. We are too. You can't see it but its there. Some kind of creepy magic I guess? So where did your ship wreck at?"
"Right over there. There was this hot chick chained up I found right when I washed ashore. You should have seen her!!"
"Ummm yeah I saw her and freed her . .."
"So did I . .."
"She was hot! I freed her too."
*stunned silence*
"Do you guys ever get the feeling that we are like puppets dangling from strings?"
"Bah who cares? Check out those boobs!"
"Something tells me that my fate wont allow me to touch them . .. and killing those bad guys in the house is starting to sound like the only thing to do. I have a hunch that somehow they will be there again like they were before . .."
"What other choice do we have?"
"Boobs!"
Get what I mean? Poor Meatflap found out later on that his class was totally useless in PVP pretty much and felt the need to reroll but when he did he found that he had to do all of the same content over again . ... exactly the same pretty much and couldnt handle being told what to do any more. You can find Meatflap these days flying a spaceship in outerspace doing whatever the hell he wants (or at least trying to . .. but some baddies occasionally stop him . ..).
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Long... very long discussions. Why ppl don't play sandboxies as much as themeparks?
But ask from different angle of view - do we need that? Do we need masses of low-IQ a.holers who ruined so many quiet good titles into our old-timer's world? This is same question as why high quality, real art masterpieces movies don't gather such many visitors as som Hollywood next action-crap. How can such a braindead moving zombielike person sit in cinema and look few hours a movie like Kurosawa's one where no one spoke even a word at duration of movie? Nobody hits other into ass, npbody don't blow off other ppl heads and hearths, no blood, no gore, no violence, no sex, no drugs......
Mainstream don't never understand beauty of exclusiveness, aristocracy, .... So we can be glad that those zombie-hordes attack themeparks, ate their players life and souls. We need only time, time when some companies see that there is tens and hundreds thousands of players with Brains, waiting their time again back. That there was something what is nearly totally lost in now-a-day MMOs, and they see real mistakes of ol'timers, and then they (be it indie-co. or some AAA) wake up, and start to make something newly refreshing, addictive, adrenaline-boosting wide-wide open world which isn't stable but where devs use all they imagination to change it together with players. OK, there could be some hand-holding routes for sissies, but real men step into wilderness, be it planetary or more wider in space. I hope that will come. I still hope....
Originally posted by Rockgod99 I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
This.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I personaly stay away from sandbox games that have PvP as its main feature. I am more of a pve / crafter person but if given a CHOICE I will take part in PvP. The more recent sandbox game fail to take choice seriously and think all sandbox games are about killing another player just because they can.
Currently playing Craft of Gods which is more or less a sandbox game with PvP as an option BUT the exp per mob skill is terrible and it seems like I am the only person in the game at times.
I think the point is that themepark and sandbox offer very different things.
I personally have no interest in politics or economy. As such I would say that the number of things you can do nor the open ended nature of a game doesn't really matter if it doesn't offer something you want to do. That has been my experience with sandbox games, lots of things to do but nothing I have particular interest in. I like interpersonal conflict, getting to know the characters personally, who is this guy, what is he doing and why. you know stuff like that. Sandbox games aggragate the conflict to the group level, it becomes about factions and economics not helping or harming individual characters or indeed getting to know individual characters, and by characters I don't mean players.
Sandbox games can afford a more openended style of game because they focus on more simulation type content, since themeparks are more story focused they can't be as open ended yet because they have more obsticles to overcome, it is hard to make an open ended storybased game.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Sandbox games can afford a more openended style of game because they focus on more simulation type content, since themeparks are more story focused they can't be as open ended yet because they have more obsticles to overcome, it is hard to make an open ended storybased game.
The original Everquest was able to provide open ended story-based game without invisible walls and instances everywhere until they dumbed down later on for the casual player. It also had more challenging PVE and more of a thrill since there was a death penalty involved. Since then themepark games have made sure that the very casual player can log in and get a lot of quests done which pretty much dumbed it down for the more hardcore player who wants to work harder and for things to be more challenging. Each quest used to last a lot longer and there was a lot more meaning to reading what the quest was about and working with others to accomplish it unlike now adays where everything seems to be handed to the player in most games so long as they are paying a sub and very very basic intelligence. It has become so bad that most of the themepark games that I have tried lately were so easy that could easily just make a macro to kill mobs for me . .. and even many sandbox games are headed in this direction.
I would like to see more themepark games become more like reading a choose your own adventure book rather than just reading a fantasy book. It is a big part of the immersion and getting into my character. I will steer clear of themepark games until they get it right again . .. and make it a challenge worth participating in. I would rather explore a huge dungeon with a small group of people (where dying will be a very bad thing!) instead of a raid with a bunch of other people that has no real risk involved besides wasting a little bit of time and having to try again.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Sandbox games can afford a more openended style of game because they focus on more simulation type content, since themeparks are more story focused they can't be as open ended yet because they have more obsticles to overcome, it is hard to make an open ended storybased game.
The original Everquest was able to provide open ended story-based game without invisible walls and instances everywhere until they dumbed down later on for the casual player. It also had more challenging PVE and more of a thrill since there was a death penalty involved. Since then themepark games have made sure that the very casual player can log in and get a lot of quests done which pretty much dumbed it down for the more hardcore player who wants to work harder and for things to be more challenging. Each quest used to last a lot longer and there was a lot more meaning to reading what the quest was about and working with others to accomplish it unlike now adays where everything seems to be handed to the player in most games so long as they are paying a sub and very very basic intelligence. It has become so bad that most of the themepark games that I have tried lately were so easy that could easily just make a macro to kill mobs for me . .. and even many sandbox games are headed in this direction.
I would like to see more themepark games become more like reading a choose your own adventure book rather than just reading a fantasy book. It is a big part of the immersion and getting into my character. I will steer clear of themepark games until they get it right again . .. and make it a challenge worth participating in. I would rather explore a huge dungeon with a small group of people (where dying will be a very bad thing!) instead of a raid with a bunch of other people that has no real risk involved besides wasting a little bit of time and having to try again.
Take off those rose tinted glasses when referring to Everquest.
The experience was certainly new and exciting, but only because MMORPGs were new. Leveling involved going into an area and literally grinding monsters for hours on end.
If you had a job or school, Everquest was a very hard game. I was in school so I have about an hour or two everyday to play. There came a point when I couldn't progress anymore because of the amount of time required to play.
The distinction is accessibility. A game that starts easy is accessible, even if it ends hard. But knowing this doesn't exactly give us any revolutionary insight. To truly understand casual, we must first dig deep into specifically what makes a game inaccessible -- what makes it hardcore.
Six things that make a game hardcore:
Difficult controls
Overwhelming options
Prerequisite knowledge
Abstract memorization
Unclear goals
Unclear solutions
Six things that do not make a game hardcore:
Challenge
Trial and Error
Strategy
Theme
Repetition
Depth / Graduated objectives
Funny, but Second Life actually qualifies as Hardcore under these circumstances. The only thing I'd ever thought was hardcore about SL was what happened behind opaque prims on private islands. It's not really a game though so it's not all that applicable.
Hardcore people use DOS or unix shell command lines.
Casuals use GUI interfaces like Windows or Gnome or Mac crap.
If you don't know shell scrupting you are just a lazy bitch.
Shell scripting is for lazy people too. Real hardcore coders write everything in x86 assembly language.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Sandbox games can afford a more openended style of game because they focus on more simulation type content, since themeparks are more story focused they can't be as open ended yet because they have more obsticles to overcome, it is hard to make an open ended storybased game.
The original Everquest was able to provide open ended story-based game without invisible walls and instances everywhere until they dumbed down later on for the casual player. It also had more challenging PVE and more of a thrill since there was a death penalty involved. Since then themepark games have made sure that the very casual player can log in and get a lot of quests done which pretty much dumbed it down for the more hardcore player who wants to work harder and for things to be more challenging. Each quest used to last a lot longer and there was a lot more meaning to reading what the quest was about and working with others to accomplish it unlike now adays where everything seems to be handed to the player in most games so long as they are paying a sub and very very basic intelligence. It has become so bad that most of the themepark games that I have tried lately were so easy that could easily just make a macro to kill mobs for me . .. and even many sandbox games are headed in this direction.
I would like to see more themepark games become more like reading a choose your own adventure book rather than just reading a fantasy book. It is a big part of the immersion and getting into my character. I will steer clear of themepark games until they get it right again . .. and make it a challenge worth participating in. I would rather explore a huge dungeon with a small group of people (where dying will be a very bad thing!) instead of a raid with a bunch of other people that has no real risk involved besides wasting a little bit of time and having to try again.
EQ isn't really story focused though, you mostly just ran around and grinded on stuff, EQ had lore but but it never culminated in a story of any kind.
It will be interesting to see what Bioware does with SWTOR, they are setting up that game to be like a "choose your own adventure" book of sorts, making the story more flexible and dynamic.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
EQ isn't really story focused though, you mostly just ran around and grinded on stuff, EQ had lore but but it never culminated in a story of any kind.
It will be interesting to see what Bioware does with SWTOR, they are setting up that game to be like a "choose your own adventure" book of sorts, making the story more flexible and dynamic.
Yeah I guess I don't really care about the stories when it comes down to it.
When I was a little kid my favorite games were RPG games, tabletop RPGs, and legos. Only other toys that I like were GI Joes because of how much you could move them around and stuff. Most other toys were too stiff . .. like the Star Wars toys and Ninja Turtles and stuff that had stiff arms and legs.
I also read more chose your own adventure books more than any other until I was much older and I used to spend a lot of time making comics and my own stories. When I played with my toys I created my own stories and pretended that it was real.
LOL
I guess I am still a kid who wants to create his own story?
But yeah I have no intentions about grinding the same monsters over and over again. There are many things about EQ that bothered me but there was still a sense of adventure, community, and exploration that most themeparks now adays seem to lack imo.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
But in themepark everyone is the hero and you meet all the other heroes outside the auction house. If that does not seem ridiculous to the OP then he had better just buy the next ticket for his funfair ride.
All MMO's have some sort of sandbox style gameplay to them. Most if not all AAA MMO let you go where you dam well please (though it might kill you). The good ones keep a nice balance between that and themepark. They have a storyline, quests, and set objectives that point you in the right direction but at the same time you can go off and do whatever you want and make your own adventure.
OP is right for why most players dont like pure sandbox MMO's but thats pretty obvious ... OP pretty much just discovered water. :P
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Sandbox = Real hero. They are famous because they have accomplished things most people can not. They are a lot more rare and difficult to become.
Theme Park = Fake hero. You end up killing the big bad boss and save the day for NPCs everywhere. They are easy to become.
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Sandbox = Real hero. They are famous because they have accomplished things most people can not. They are a lot more rare and difficult to become.
Theme Park = Fake hero. You end up killing the big bad boss and save the day for NPCs everywhere. They are easy to become.
People in sandboxes can be just as much 'fake heroes' as those in themeparks and 'real heroes' exist in themparks for the same reasons they exist in sandboxes.
This 'I am a sandbox player so I am better' attitude is getting downright silly.
Take off those rose tinted glasses when referring to Everquest.
The experience was certainly new and exciting, but only because MMORPGs were new. Leveling involved going into an area and literally grinding monsters for hours on end.
If you had a job or school, Everquest was a very hard game. I was in school so I have about an hour or two everyday to play. There came a point when I couldn't progress anymore because of the amount of time required to play.
I know this is supposed to be a discussion about sandbox games, but after reading the highlighted part of your post, I just had to reply. I played EQ for over 4 years with a couple of breaks due to 9/11 and deployments afterward. During the entire time I was playing EQ, I was employed fulltime as a soldier, raising a son and enjoying life.
I always felt the opposite way, there just wasn't enough time in a day to get everything done so I ALWAYS had something to do that could progress my character.
That is one of the biggest things I miss about the older games, always having something to do towards actual character progression. I'm playing WoW right now as I wait for something else to come along and I really feel like I can't progress anymore but it has nothing to do with play time requirements.
I hit lvl 80 25 days ago on my Warlock and I'm already stuck running ICC once a week waiting for Cata to come out. WoW has tons of achievements and vanity items to farm for those who enjoy that, but it does not take long at all to hit the character progression roadblock which ultimately keeps me from playing long term.
Take off those rose tinted glasses when referring to Everquest.
The experience was certainly new and exciting, but only because MMORPGs were new. Leveling involved going into an area and literally grinding monsters for hours on end.
If you had a job or school, Everquest was a very hard game. I was in school so I have about an hour or two everyday to play. There came a point when I couldn't progress anymore because of the amount of time required to play.
I know this is supposed to be a discussion about sandbox games, but after reading the highlighted part of your post, I just had to reply. I played EQ for over 4 years with a couple of breaks due to 9/11 and deployments afterward. During the entire time I was playing EQ, I was employed fulltime as a soldier, raising a son and enjoying life.
I always felt the opposite way, there just wasn't enough time in a day to get everything done so I ALWAYS had something to do that could progress my character.
That is one of the biggest things I miss about the older games, always having something to do towards actual character progression. I'm playing WoW right now as I wait for something else to come along and I really feel like I can't progress anymore but it has nothing to do with play time requirements.
I hit lvl 80 25 days ago on my Warlock and I'm already stuck running ICC once a week waiting for Cata to come out. WoW has tons of achievements and vanity items to farm for those who enjoy that, but it does not take long at all to hit the character progression roadblock which ultimately keeps me from playing long term.
It sounds then like you may be trying to make mmo's a bigger part of your downtime than you need to. I try not to speak for anyone else and how they enjoy their personal time but if I were to get to the point where I was playing any game including an mmo waiting on something else it's time to do something else.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Sandbox = Real hero. They are famous because they have accomplished things most people can not. They are a lot more rare and difficult to become.
Theme Park = Fake hero. You end up killing the big bad boss and save the day for NPCs everywhere. They are easy to become.
People in sandboxes can be just as much 'fake heroes' as those in themeparks and 'real heroes' exist in themparks for the same reasons they exist in sandboxes.
This 'I am a sandbox player so I am better' attitude is getting downright silly.
I'm actually not a sandbox player. But I do understand the dynamic between what a hero means in one type of game compared to the other. And I understand this because at various times I have played both sandbox and themepark mmos.
1 Sandbox mmos are HARDER to make (current technology) and HARDER to play (hardcore criteria) = HARDER to be successful: Less effective at overcoming the limitations of the tech and design and less attractive to play for most players.
2 Regarding the Hero "with a thousand faces" idea from the OP: a Themepark mmos provide heroes with ready made endings where everyone is a hero within their own experience of the same story, usually a truly epic arc. b Sandbox mmos have open-ended stories, where WHAT HAPPENED is the story at a higher resoluton of detail in the smaller story arc: From the lowly crafter to the guild leader terrorizing/inspiring everyone.
Both forms of story and gameplay serve their purpose: One is very escape and the other is very immersion. Two different ends.
My guess: People think 2b Sandboxes suffer due to 2a, but it's actually due to 1. The contrast also snowballs this difference for sandbox inclined players.
If this genre doesn't go in the sandbox direction, it dies in the next five years.
Why?
1) Other formats can do everything themepark MMOs can do more cheaply (for publisher and consumer), more conveniently, and with better results.
2) The "social network app" movement is a sandbox movement, not a themepark one. People don't go to Farmville to go on raids for übergear. They seem just satisfied blowing countless hours literally watching the corn grow. We can do better than this!
3) The themepark format has been worked to death and, frankly, it has nowhere else to go. Interfaces have already been simplified too much, classes simplified too much, and the emphasis on "fast action combat" means that the games literally have nothing else but combat. When the most exciting thing you can possibly do in a game (life or death struggle) becomes boringly routine, you literally have nothing left to give people past the initial playthrough.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Sandbox will never work untill they add "spades" a "bucket" and a few other bits and pieces to play around with. So far all the sandbox games i have eagerly awaited have been let down due to them being too sandboxy!
A game with nothing to do but imagination is not worth the electricity bill it takes to run it.....if i want to use my imagination i shut my eyes and dream......believe me i come up with far better than Darkfall etc!
The key word is "BALANCE"
EQ is still the most sandboxy i game i have ever played....a huge world that you could go wherever you wanted....you could explore, craft, fight or even just socilaise. What they did was give you lots of choices and they then they just left you alone to go and do what you wanted. Balance and content is what is important to me
Personally I think that EQ was one of the least sandboxy games out there. Even WoW is more sandboxy than EQ. Everything you did in EQ you can do in WoW, plus wow has more options on how to design your character, and what your going to accomplish that day.
EQ was fun for the time, but in no way was it a sandbox. Linear character development, no impact on the world, tunnell/bazaar selling equipment not as good as dropped, a market based almost exclusively on dropped gear, no politics other than guild wars (which can be done in any game). The only thing that makes it not a complete and total themepark was you could travel anywhere (which you can do in every game).
Basically no way to impact or influence the world in any way shape or form and only 1 way to advance your character - not too sandboxy.
Venge Sunsoar
i see your point friend but it does come down to how we each look at it.
In EQ i made a ranger and went on a voyage of discovery. i went to places i shouldnt go! places where i had no chance of fighting, and that made it feel like an adventure! ..as EQ aged i amassed 500+ AAs which at the time was huge. i was now a tanking Ranger, able to hold agro and sustain a good deal of damage while also dishing it out.
In wow i was very limited to me role! i was a hunter and no more! i had three paths to choose whithin that class. That to me was not much of a choice.
My point about EQ being the most sandboxy i have played was that it allowed me to go a different path. i could solo, group, pair, craft...heck did you ever read about the pacafist gnome that reached level 50? he never fought a single mob! yes it must have been the greatest grind in history...but fair play to him, he did it!
EQ gave me a big box to play in...it also added a spade, bucket and a few of those starfish shaped moulds too. In it i had various adventures ranging from stealthy treks across Kithicor forest heading to Qyeynos to fighting a huge red Dragon in Nagefens lair. these felt like i was involved in a story...a great epic story!
Darkfall filled me with wonderful feelings during the first month...then i spent two months looking for things to do and got bored.....that was not a sandbox but a box!
Comments
Hardcore people use DOS or unix shell command lines.
Casuals use GUI interfaces like Windows or Gnome or Mac crap.
If you don't know shell scrupting you are just a lazy bitch.
LOL
I think this highlights the huge potential mmorpgs have that seems untapped, because of market conditions/tastes.
What would be interesting is if one of the great mmo themeparks of today, was rebuilt to be the great mmo sandbox of tomorrow.
Did my 3 weeks hiking over mountains, forests etc and camping & cooking etc and travelling over 00's of kms, not in an mmo but in June, outdoors. Makes you enjoy mmos that much more!
Btw: OP one of the best threads I've read for a while!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I don't know why people in general seem not to like sandbox games rather only why I don't.
I don't think the difference between a sandbox player and a themepark player is that sandboxers are intelligent creative types that love freedom and themepark players are ignorant sheep that need to be told what to do. I mean really if anything screams I am a egotistical douche it is statements like that.
See I judge a game based on two things, emotional response and more objective criteria, like a film critic almost. So when I play a game I look at things like how exciting, scary or beautiful is it? But I also look at stuff like possible meanings and how that is conveyed in the game, how do characters and levels and such develope and what that might convey. A game can be interesting if it only has one, but I think you really need a game to be both emotionally and intellectually stimulating to be really good.
Now of the sandbox MMOs I have played, and I have played a lot, none I have found to be very good, the reason I think is that they are not emotionally nor intellectually stimulating. An example of a game (not an MMO I know) that I think is both emotionallly and intellectually stimulating is Bioshock, it is beautifully, kind of scary at times and exciting at others, and it has all this symbolism and this intricate story to chew on the whole time, a great game with a great story and equally great game play.
Sandbox games though don't have either, I play them and I feel like the developers didn't but much attention into these aspects of the game. Ultimately I think games are art, you can have high art or low art, abstract or realism, but they are art. Even if a game approaches a subject with all the merrit of a hamhanded action movie, it is still art just not very good, and you can even like it in a "it is so bad it is good" kind of way. Artistically I can't figure out what sandbox games are suppose to be about, they seem to be more simulations, like a social experiment, rather than a game or indeed art. It is the highly open ended nature that kills this aspect of the game I think, developers need a certain amount of control if they hope to try and add depth in terms of art to a game. Sandoxes conversely seem to be heavily reliant on systems and go into a lot of depth with those systems, which I guess is a math majors wet dream but not something I find intellectually or emotionally satisfying because I don't much care about economic simulation or whatever. Sandbox games seem to be for big science or math nerds, or programmers themselves, where as I am more of a philosophy and art nerd. This is why I have come to belive that different people just want flatout different things from a game, sandbox players seem to want a hobby something to indulge their interest, I am looking for an experience that hopefully has some artistic merrit to it.
Granted I am not saying that themepark games are delivering these really great works of art, there is nothing like Bioshock out there and certainly nothing that is the Godfather of games, much less MMOs, but they try. That is why I like WoW so much it doesn't have the highest artistic merrits but it has some, and good gameplay to boot, pretty much better than the other MMOs I have played, and this makes me think that eventually MMOs will get really great. It is the "themepark" format that I think has more potential to deliver the type of game I am really looking for rather than the sandbox format.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I didn't like Bioshock. A lot of times I couldn't tell what to shoot at. The game actually hurt my eyes after awhile. The short movie clips were the best thing about it for me but I was trying to play a game, not watch a movie. I won't try WoW because I find the art too cartoony.
Sandbox games are a hell of a lot more emotional and stimulating to me. Emotional highs and lows are extreme when you can kill someone and take all of their stuff or be trade ganked by someone in an entirely player controlled economy. It feels pretty epic when you create a city with your friends and then line the ramparts with the archers as invaders come riding down the hill on hundreds on mounts to try and take it from you. They are also extremely competitive which is a lot more stimulating to me since no mob's artificial intelligence can top the challenge of another persons human intelligence and creativity.
I understand what you are saying but I think that sandbox games offer more emotions and stimulation for certain people but it is not as often and not as immediate as themepark games can be so perhaps that is the biggest difference. Themepark games are a lot more casual friendly besides the original Everquest (which felt very sandboxy without instances and a huge world to explore and a bigger sense of community).
Not saying that you are a sheep for playing those types of games (especially Guildwars since you can create your own builds that no one else uses for a feeling of being truly unique and that takes a lot of intelligence and creativity to be the one who starts trends of good builds to use) but I am saying that good leaders shine more in sandbox games. You do not have enough player freedom for leaders to shine nearly as much. There is no building empires, not as much economical opportunities, and a stronger sense of community (auction houses and LFG spammers just make me feel like another scrub thats no different than the rest and the same goes with the way they usually do instances and having to do quests to unlock content and make it to your next instance . ..), and usually required to do the same quests as everyone else and go down the same storyline to unlock more content.
I'll use AoC as an example since I recently tried to get into it again:
"Hey Legolas!"
"Sup Meatflap!!!"
"Where have you been?"
"Oh I am the sole survivor of a ship that wrecked a few hours ago . .. just got that blacksmith to break my slave chains for me."
"Weird . .."
"What?"
"Same exact thing just happened to me! I am a slave too and have this crazy tattoo I am trying to figure out . .. you should join me."
"Funny coincidence! I have a tatoo in that same spot. I wonder what it means? What are you doing now?"
"Oh I am just headed over to some chumps house to get some baddies . .. that house right over there."
"Oh I already cleared them out a couple hours ago so don't worry. Check out what he gave me for it!"
"What the hell? He just asked me to do the same thing only a few minutes ago . ..?"
"Sounds like a trap! Maybe he found out your a slave and is setting up an ambush?"
"Yeah you could be right. Let's get out of here!"
"Where should we go?"
"Whoa whatever that is over the mountain definitely looks like its worth checking out! Maybe there is some treasure or something . ..?"
"Good idea! . ..*bump* What the hell??!? There is some sort of invisible barrier blocking the way."
"What is that? Weird! Lets try some running jumps . .." *BUMP!* "Ouch!!!"
"This is no good. We are going to have to go around."
"What are you freaks doing? lol"
"Trying to get around this wall! Do you know the way?"
"Nah I am just a slave who was shipwrecked a few minutes ago . .. trying to figure out where I got this tatoo . .. what wall?"
"Umm thats a little wierd. We are too. You can't see it but its there. Some kind of creepy magic I guess? So where did your ship wreck at?"
"Right over there. There was this hot chick chained up I found right when I washed ashore. You should have seen her!!"
"Ummm yeah I saw her and freed her . .."
"So did I . .."
"She was hot! I freed her too."
*stunned silence*
"Do you guys ever get the feeling that we are like puppets dangling from strings?"
"Bah who cares? Check out those boobs!"
"Something tells me that my fate wont allow me to touch them . .. and killing those bad guys in the house is starting to sound like the only thing to do. I have a hunch that somehow they will be there again like they were before . .."
"What other choice do we have?"
"Boobs!"
Get what I mean? Poor Meatflap found out later on that his class was totally useless in PVP pretty much and felt the need to reroll but when he did he found that he had to do all of the same content over again . ... exactly the same pretty much and couldnt handle being told what to do any more. You can find Meatflap these days flying a spaceship in outerspace doing whatever the hell he wants (or at least trying to . .. but some baddies occasionally stop him . ..).
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Long... very long discussions. Why ppl don't play sandboxies as much as themeparks?
But ask from different angle of view - do we need that? Do we need masses of low-IQ a.holers who ruined so many quiet good titles into our old-timer's world? This is same question as why high quality, real art masterpieces movies don't gather such many visitors as som Hollywood next action-crap. How can such a braindead moving zombielike person sit in cinema and look few hours a movie like Kurosawa's one where no one spoke even a word at duration of movie? Nobody hits other into ass, npbody don't blow off other ppl heads and hearths, no blood, no gore, no violence, no sex, no drugs......
Mainstream don't never understand beauty of exclusiveness, aristocracy, .... So we can be glad that those zombie-hordes attack themeparks, ate their players life and souls. We need only time, time when some companies see that there is tens and hundreds thousands of players with Brains, waiting their time again back. That there was something what is nearly totally lost in now-a-day MMOs, and they see real mistakes of ol'timers, and then they (be it indie-co. or some AAA) wake up, and start to make something newly refreshing, addictive, adrenaline-boosting wide-wide open world which isn't stable but where devs use all they imagination to change it together with players. OK, there could be some hand-holding routes for sissies, but real men step into wilderness, be it planetary or more wider in space. I hope that will come. I still hope....
This.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
There's so many choices! Fun though, it took a while for me
but definitely got to a happy place in the end.Check that out
if your interested .or search "world of game net "on google
I personaly stay away from sandbox games that have PvP as its main feature. I am more of a pve / crafter person but if given a CHOICE I will take part in PvP. The more recent sandbox game fail to take choice seriously and think all sandbox games are about killing another player just because they can.
Currently playing Craft of Gods which is more or less a sandbox game with PvP as an option BUT the exp per mob skill is terrible and it seems like I am the only person in the game at times.
I think the point is that themepark and sandbox offer very different things.
I personally have no interest in politics or economy. As such I would say that the number of things you can do nor the open ended nature of a game doesn't really matter if it doesn't offer something you want to do. That has been my experience with sandbox games, lots of things to do but nothing I have particular interest in. I like interpersonal conflict, getting to know the characters personally, who is this guy, what is he doing and why. you know stuff like that. Sandbox games aggragate the conflict to the group level, it becomes about factions and economics not helping or harming individual characters or indeed getting to know individual characters, and by characters I don't mean players.
Sandbox games can afford a more openended style of game because they focus on more simulation type content, since themeparks are more story focused they can't be as open ended yet because they have more obsticles to overcome, it is hard to make an open ended storybased game.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
The original Everquest was able to provide open ended story-based game without invisible walls and instances everywhere until they dumbed down later on for the casual player. It also had more challenging PVE and more of a thrill since there was a death penalty involved. Since then themepark games have made sure that the very casual player can log in and get a lot of quests done which pretty much dumbed it down for the more hardcore player who wants to work harder and for things to be more challenging. Each quest used to last a lot longer and there was a lot more meaning to reading what the quest was about and working with others to accomplish it unlike now adays where everything seems to be handed to the player in most games so long as they are paying a sub and very very basic intelligence. It has become so bad that most of the themepark games that I have tried lately were so easy that could easily just make a macro to kill mobs for me . .. and even many sandbox games are headed in this direction.
I would like to see more themepark games become more like reading a choose your own adventure book rather than just reading a fantasy book. It is a big part of the immersion and getting into my character. I will steer clear of themepark games until they get it right again . .. and make it a challenge worth participating in. I would rather explore a huge dungeon with a small group of people (where dying will be a very bad thing!) instead of a raid with a bunch of other people that has no real risk involved besides wasting a little bit of time and having to try again.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Take off those rose tinted glasses when referring to Everquest.
The experience was certainly new and exciting, but only because MMORPGs were new. Leveling involved going into an area and literally grinding monsters for hours on end.
If you had a job or school, Everquest was a very hard game. I was in school so I have about an hour or two everyday to play. There came a point when I couldn't progress anymore because of the amount of time required to play.
Shell scripting is for lazy people too. Real hardcore coders write everything in x86 assembly language.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
EQ isn't really story focused though, you mostly just ran around and grinded on stuff, EQ had lore but but it never culminated in a story of any kind.
It will be interesting to see what Bioware does with SWTOR, they are setting up that game to be like a "choose your own adventure" book of sorts, making the story more flexible and dynamic.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Yeah I guess I don't really care about the stories when it comes down to it.
When I was a little kid my favorite games were RPG games, tabletop RPGs, and legos. Only other toys that I like were GI Joes because of how much you could move them around and stuff. Most other toys were too stiff . .. like the Star Wars toys and Ninja Turtles and stuff that had stiff arms and legs.
I also read more chose your own adventure books more than any other until I was much older and I used to spend a lot of time making comics and my own stories. When I played with my toys I created my own stories and pretended that it was real.
LOL
I guess I am still a kid who wants to create his own story?
But yeah I have no intentions about grinding the same monsters over and over again. There are many things about EQ that bothered me but there was still a sense of adventure, community, and exploration that most themeparks now adays seem to lack imo.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
But in themepark everyone is the hero and you meet all the other heroes outside the auction house. If that does not seem ridiculous to the OP then he had better just buy the next ticket for his funfair ride.
All MMO's have some sort of sandbox style gameplay to them. Most if not all AAA MMO let you go where you dam well please (though it might kill you). The good ones keep a nice balance between that and themepark. They have a storyline, quests, and set objectives that point you in the right direction but at the same time you can go off and do whatever you want and make your own adventure.
OP is right for why most players dont like pure sandbox MMO's but thats pretty obvious ... OP pretty much just discovered water. :P
Sandbox = Real hero. They are famous because they have accomplished things most people can not. They are a lot more rare and difficult to become.
Theme Park = Fake hero. You end up killing the big bad boss and save the day for NPCs everywhere. They are easy to become.
People in sandboxes can be just as much 'fake heroes' as those in themeparks and 'real heroes' exist in themparks for the same reasons they exist in sandboxes.
This 'I am a sandbox player so I am better' attitude is getting downright silly.
I know this is supposed to be a discussion about sandbox games, but after reading the highlighted part of your post, I just had to reply. I played EQ for over 4 years with a couple of breaks due to 9/11 and deployments afterward. During the entire time I was playing EQ, I was employed fulltime as a soldier, raising a son and enjoying life.
I always felt the opposite way, there just wasn't enough time in a day to get everything done so I ALWAYS had something to do that could progress my character.
That is one of the biggest things I miss about the older games, always having something to do towards actual character progression. I'm playing WoW right now as I wait for something else to come along and I really feel like I can't progress anymore but it has nothing to do with play time requirements.
I hit lvl 80 25 days ago on my Warlock and I'm already stuck running ICC once a week waiting for Cata to come out. WoW has tons of achievements and vanity items to farm for those who enjoy that, but it does not take long at all to hit the character progression roadblock which ultimately keeps me from playing long term.
It sounds then like you may be trying to make mmo's a bigger part of your downtime than you need to. I try not to speak for anyone else and how they enjoy their personal time but if I were to get to the point where I was playing any game including an mmo waiting on something else it's time to do something else.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I'm actually not a sandbox player. But I do understand the dynamic between what a hero means in one type of game compared to the other. And I understand this because at various times I have played both sandbox and themepark mmos.
From the discussion:
1 Sandbox mmos are HARDER to make (current technology) and HARDER to play (hardcore criteria) = HARDER to be successful: Less effective at overcoming the limitations of the tech and design and less attractive to play for most players.
2 Regarding the Hero "with a thousand faces" idea from the OP: a Themepark mmos provide heroes with ready made endings where everyone is a hero within their own experience of the same story, usually a truly epic arc. b Sandbox mmos have open-ended stories, where WHAT HAPPENED is the story at a higher resoluton of detail in the smaller story arc: From the lowly crafter to the guild leader terrorizing/inspiring everyone.
Both forms of story and gameplay serve their purpose: One is very escape and the other is very immersion. Two different ends.
My guess: People think 2b Sandboxes suffer due to 2a, but it's actually due to 1. The contrast also snowballs this difference for sandbox inclined players.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
If this genre doesn't go in the sandbox direction, it dies in the next five years.
Why?
1) Other formats can do everything themepark MMOs can do more cheaply (for publisher and consumer), more conveniently, and with better results.
2) The "social network app" movement is a sandbox movement, not a themepark one. People don't go to Farmville to go on raids for übergear. They seem just satisfied blowing countless hours literally watching the corn grow. We can do better than this!
3) The themepark format has been worked to death and, frankly, it has nowhere else to go. Interfaces have already been simplified too much, classes simplified too much, and the emphasis on "fast action combat" means that the games literally have nothing else but combat. When the most exciting thing you can possibly do in a game (life or death struggle) becomes boringly routine, you literally have nothing left to give people past the initial playthrough.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
i see your point friend but it does come down to how we each look at it.
In EQ i made a ranger and went on a voyage of discovery. i went to places i shouldnt go! places where i had no chance of fighting, and that made it feel like an adventure! ..as EQ aged i amassed 500+ AAs which at the time was huge. i was now a tanking Ranger, able to hold agro and sustain a good deal of damage while also dishing it out.
In wow i was very limited to me role! i was a hunter and no more! i had three paths to choose whithin that class. That to me was not much of a choice.
My point about EQ being the most sandboxy i have played was that it allowed me to go a different path. i could solo, group, pair, craft...heck did you ever read about the pacafist gnome that reached level 50? he never fought a single mob! yes it must have been the greatest grind in history...but fair play to him, he did it!
EQ gave me a big box to play in...it also added a spade, bucket and a few of those starfish shaped moulds too. In it i had various adventures ranging from stealthy treks across Kithicor forest heading to Qyeynos to fighting a huge red Dragon in Nagefens lair. these felt like i was involved in a story...a great epic story!
Darkfall filled me with wonderful feelings during the first month...then i spent two months looking for things to do and got bored.....that was not a sandbox but a box!
a sandbox needs at least SAND inside!