Sandbox games can afford a more openended style of game because they focus on more simulation type content, since themeparks are more story focused they can't be as open ended yet because they have more obsticles to overcome, it is hard to make an open ended storybased game.
The original Everquest was able to provide open ended story-based game without invisible walls and instances everywhere until they dumbed down later on for the casual player. It also had more challenging PVE and more of a thrill since there was a death penalty involved. Since then themepark games have made sure that the very casual player can log in and get a lot of quests done which pretty much dumbed it down for the more hardcore player who wants to work harder and for things to be more challenging. Each quest used to last a lot longer and there was a lot more meaning to reading what the quest was about and working with others to accomplish it unlike now adays where everything seems to be handed to the player in most games so long as they are paying a sub and very very basic intelligence. It has become so bad that most of the themepark games that I have tried lately were so easy that could easily just make a macro to kill mobs for me . .. and even many sandbox games are headed in this direction.
I would like to see more themepark games become more like reading a choose your own adventure book rather than just reading a fantasy book. It is a big part of the immersion and getting into my character. I will steer clear of themepark games until they get it right again . .. and make it a challenge worth participating in. I would rather explore a huge dungeon with a small group of people (where dying will be a very bad thing!) instead of a raid with a bunch of other people that has no real risk involved besides wasting a little bit of time and having to try again.
Take off those rose tinted glasses when referring to Everquest.
The experience was certainly new and exciting, but only because MMORPGs were new. Leveling involved going into an area and literally grinding monsters for hours on end.
If you had a job or school, Everquest was a very hard game. I was in school so I have about an hour or two everyday to play. There came a point when I couldn't progress anymore because of the amount of time required to play.
That was down to your style of play friend
I had a job and a child and still loved Everquest. I also maxed level and was one of the most well known Rangers on my server! Why?...because i could solo very well, which made me invaluble when there was the threat of a wipe in a group. and as for taking of the tinted glasses....i still play Everquest. and thats after, WoW, Lotro, vanguard, atlantica, Aoc, WAR, Darkfall, FE and many more.......and still i enjoy EQ more?
I think most people refer to sandbox due to thier enjoyment and ability to make thier own adventure! whatever game they play!
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Space captain piloting a Titan or controlling half of "space oil" resources is not exactly "nobody". Even semi casual owning his own non-instanced fortress in uncharted space is far from "nobody".
Sandboxes either do not have developer generated content besides the barebones (EvE) or they have to water down the content that they have (EQ and everything else with overdone time sinks, including LOTRO) or have ten times more AAA grade content then WoW (don't be silly).
The price of freedom is too high. Hamburgers are more convenient than raw steak and cup of flour when all you want is little snack.
That and MMOs fail badly at social tools. Being alone in movies is bearable, being alone in chess club is...
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Sandbox = Real hero. They are famous because they have accomplished things most people can not. They are a lot more rare and difficult to become.
Theme Park = Fake hero. You end up killing the big bad boss and save the day for NPCs everywhere. They are easy to become.
People in sandboxes can be just as much 'fake heroes' as those in themeparks and 'real heroes' exist in themparks for the same reasons they exist in sandboxes.
This 'I am a sandbox player so I am better' attitude is getting downright silly.
I'm actually not a sandbox player. But I do understand the dynamic between what a hero means in one type of game compared to the other. And I understand this because at various times I have played both sandbox and themepark mmos.
You obviously understand it differently than I do since to me the fake heroics in sandboxes are pretty much the same as the fake heroics in themparks. And I have played both types of games as well. Maybe your definition of 'fake' is different than mine.
Many folks claim sandboxes to be the last bastion of "freedom" in video games and this is just not true, the gameplay features offered in sandboxes are what are considered to be standards fair for MMORPG's. All themeparks try to include these features, vast expanses to explore, crafting, roleplay tools, factions, etc.
Sandboxes (due in large part to the lame attitude of sandbox fans) are often developed in lazy barebones ways. what has happened is that themeparks often use simple systems but are chocked full of content while sandboxes use complex systems and have little to no content.
I have asked the question many times but have never seen an answer from any of the players who tend to draw these battle lines, why must a sandbox also have no content at all? Why was SWG better because it was filled with "generic" jobs for quests but offered little to no alternate meaningful questing? i remember some feature in SWG that did have you go to a cantina and speak to Han Solo and I recall everyone engaging in that content and enjoying it why would it have been bad for them to include more of that?
When people take off the rose colored glasses and start to admit that sandboxes offer no more freedom than themeparks then sandbox devs will start to actually work for your money and that sub genre will grow.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I don't know why people in general seem not to like sandbox games rather only why I don't.
I don't think the difference between a sandbox player and a themepark player is that sandboxers are intelligent creative types that love freedom and themepark players are ignorant sheep that need to be told what to do. I mean really if anything screams I am a egotistical douche it is statements like that.
See I judge a game based on two things, emotional response and more objective criteria, like a film critic almost. So when I play a game I look at things like how exciting, scary or beautiful is it? But I also look at stuff like possible meanings and how that is conveyed in the game, how do characters and levels and such develope and what that might convey. A game can be interesting if it only has one, but I think you really need a game to be both emotionally and intellectually stimulating to be really good.
Now of the sandbox MMOs I have played, and I have played a lot, none I have found to be very good, the reason I think is that they are not emotionally nor intellectually stimulating. An example of a game (not an MMO I know) that I think is both emotionallly and intellectually stimulating is Bioshock, it is beautifully, kind of scary at times and exciting at others, and it has all this symbolism and this intricate story to chew on the whole time, a great game with a great story and equally great game play.
Sandbox games though don't have either, I play them and I feel like the developers didn't but much attention into these aspects of the game. Ultimately I think games are art, you can have high art or low art, abstract or realism, but they are art. Even if a game approaches a subject with all the merrit of a hamhanded action movie, it is still art just not very good, and you can even like it in a "it is so bad it is good" kind of way. Artistically I can't figure out what sandbox games are suppose to be about, they seem to be more simulations, like a social experiment, rather than a game or indeed art. It is the highly open ended nature that kills this aspect of the game I think, developers need a certain amount of control if they hope to try and add depth in terms of art to a game. Sandoxes conversely seem to be heavily reliant on systems and go into a lot of depth with those systems, which I guess is a math majors wet dream but not something I find intellectually or emotionally satisfying because I don't much care about economic simulation or whatever. Sandbox games seem to be for big science or math nerds, or programmers themselves, where as I am more of a philosophy and art nerd. This is why I have come to belive that different people just want flatout different things from a game, sandbox players seem to want a hobby something to indulge their interest, I am looking for an experience that hopefully has some artistic merrit to it.
Granted I am not saying that themepark games are delivering these really great works of art, there is nothing like Bioshock out there and certainly nothing that is the Godfather of games, much less MMOs, but they try. That is why I like WoW so much it doesn't have the highest artistic merrits but it has some, and good gameplay to boot, pretty much better than the other MMOs I have played, and this makes me think that eventually MMOs will get really great. It is the "themepark" format that I think has more potential to deliver the type of game I am really looking for rather than the sandbox format.
So what you're saying is that you play games for the atmosphere and cinematic experience, both of which are fabricated and spoon fed to players in themepark games. Battle music and spooky sights don't mentally stimulate me. Tension, unpredictabilty and a sense of danger as a result of an unrestricted dynamic playing field do.
High artistic quality is not just limited to themepark games. EVE Online, I would say, has amazing artistic and philosophical quality. Sandbox games requires the player to ponder the depth and complexity of social, political and economic interaction.
So what you're saying is that you play games for the atmosphere and cinematic experience, both of which are fabricated and spoon fed to players in themepark games. Battle music and spooky sights don't mentally stimulate me. Tension, unpredictabilty and a sense of danger as a result of an unrestricted dynamic playing field do.
High artistic quality is not just limited to themepark games. EVE Online, I would say, has amazing artistic and philosophical quality. Sandbox games requires the player to ponder the depth and complexity of social, political and economic interaction.
well that's one way to say it.
But that can easily be colored in the same manner you explained his preference.
One could easily say "wandering around until someone jumps out of the dark and says 'boo' becomes tiresome after a while. In addition, the steady 'I got you/you got me' of many pvp games and the constant trash talking ends up becoming sophmoric".
There are many ways to color something one doesn't like.
I have yet to experience any lofty content in ffa pvp games where there is unpredictability and a sense of danger. I like the sense of danger. But from what I've seen there seems to be a great amount of "you ganked me so I'm going to get my buds, now you are going to get your buds", etc.
I would agree that there is more of a sense of ownership, at least for me, in games like Lineage 2. But at the same time, after playing that game for many years, I have yet to see a grand scope of an actual story between players.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So what you're saying is that you play games for the atmosphere and cinematic experience, both of which are fabricated and spoon fed to players in themepark games. Battle music and spooky sights don't mentally stimulate me. Tension, unpredictabilty and a sense of danger as a result of an unrestricted dynamic playing field do.
High artistic quality is not just limited to themepark games. EVE Online, I would say, has amazing artistic and philosophical quality. Sandbox games requires the player to ponder the depth and complexity of social, political and economic interaction.
I wouldn't say that is true. No MMO, thus far, I would say has much artistic quality hopefully they will eventually, but not at this point. I found Eve really hard to get into, and it certainly didn't make me ponder any philosophy, partly because the setting didn't do much for me, and though there were things going on, I found it hard to care, I think that it is because most, that is nearly all, of the conflict in Eve is between players, and I find it hard to care about what other players are doing when they don't make the effort to develop their characters personalities, the player may have personality but the character doesn't, so it really draws me out of the world. That is why i prefer for the developers to step in and create the content that the players are unwilling/unable to do, that is act with some emotional depth.
It would be nice if everyone roleplayed and were good at it, and not in the ye olde english way, but they don't unfortunately.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I don't know why people in general seem not to like sandbox games rather only why I don't.
I don't think the difference between a sandbox player and a themepark player is that sandboxers are intelligent creative types that love freedom and themepark players are ignorant sheep that need to be told what to do. I mean really if anything screams I am a egotistical douche it is statements like that.
See I judge a game based on two things, emotional response and more objective criteria, like a film critic almost. So when I play a game I look at things like how exciting, scary or beautiful is it? But I also look at stuff like possible meanings and how that is conveyed in the game, how do characters and levels and such develope and what that might convey. A game can be interesting if it only has one, but I think you really need a game to be both emotionally and intellectually stimulating to be really good.
Now of the sandbox MMOs I have played, and I have played a lot, none I have found to be very good, the reason I think is that they are not emotionally nor intellectually stimulating. An example of a game (not an MMO I know) that I think is both emotionallly and intellectually stimulating is Bioshock, it is beautifully, kind of scary at times and exciting at others, and it has all this symbolism and this intricate story to chew on the whole time, a great game with a great story and equally great game play.
Sandbox games though don't have either, I play them and I feel like the developers didn't but much attention into these aspects of the game. Ultimately I think games are art, you can have high art or low art, abstract or realism, but they are art. Even if a game approaches a subject with all the merrit of a hamhanded action movie, it is still art just not very good, and you can even like it in a "it is so bad it is good" kind of way. Artistically I can't figure out what sandbox games are suppose to be about, they seem to be more simulations, like a social experiment, rather than a game or indeed art. It is the highly open ended nature that kills this aspect of the game I think, developers need a certain amount of control if they hope to try and add depth in terms of art to a game. Sandoxes conversely seem to be heavily reliant on systems and go into a lot of depth with those systems, which I guess is a math majors wet dream but not something I find intellectually or emotionally satisfying because I don't much care about economic simulation or whatever. Sandbox games seem to be for big science or math nerds, or programmers themselves, where as I am more of a philosophy and art nerd. This is why I have come to belive that different people just want flatout different things from a game, sandbox players seem to want a hobby something to indulge their interest, I am looking for an experience that hopefully has some artistic merrit to it.
Granted I am not saying that themepark games are delivering these really great works of art, there is nothing like Bioshock out there and certainly nothing that is the Godfather of games, much less MMOs, but they try. That is why I like WoW so much it doesn't have the highest artistic merrits but it has some, and good gameplay to boot, pretty much better than the other MMOs I have played, and this makes me think that eventually MMOs will get really great. It is the "themepark" format that I think has more potential to deliver the type of game I am really looking for rather than the sandbox format.
So what you're saying is that you play games for the atmosphere and cinematic experience, both of which are fabricated and spoon fed to players in themepark games. Battle music and spooky sights don't mentally stimulate me. Tension, unpredictabilty and a sense of danger as a result of an unrestricted dynamic playing field do.
High artistic quality is not just limited to themepark games. EVE Online, I would say, has amazing artistic and philosophical quality. Sandbox games requires the player to ponder the depth and complexity of social, political and economic interaction.
These are the battle lines I often speak about being drawn by those who prefer sandbox gameplay to themepark. I think most would consider SWG to have been a sandbox game, battle music yep it was in there (the spooky sights thing don't get what that has to do with themepark).
But what I need to ask is where was all this freedom, are you trying to say that from the minute you entered that sandbox or any of them that you could go anywhere and do anything you wanted in the game? No that's not how that sandbox was created there were many places in SWG that you were not going to unless you had worked through your base class into your complex class first.
Far too often folks are mistaking being led into a certain kind of game play with being "free". In SWG you were free to be any non hero you wanted but that's about where it ended, and to me a sandbox especially as many of the sandbox gaming fans try to describe would allow me to play either the heroic or the mundane.
I mean honestly you think all the spying,defection and such that goes on in games like EVE and SWG are being done for any other reason than those people found themselves with nothing to do?
I remember by the time we started to get settled in on SWG with bases and guild alliances that at that point there wasn't much to do until folks began the spying, turning on each other and such simply to create the tensions that you describe as freedom.
Sandbox game play will thrive when devs and the fans of sandbox realize that adding themepark elements don't take sand out of the box but adds it to it, much like themepark games do. I'm still trying to think of the things I could do in SWG that weren't possible in games like WOW or LOTRO but it isn't hard to think of the things those games offer that SWG didn't.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
These are the battle lines I often speak about being drawn by those who prefer sandbox gameplay to themepark. I think most would consider SWG to have been a sandbox game, battle music yep it was in there (the spooky sights thing don't get what that has to do with themepark).
But what I need to ask is where was all this freedom, are you trying to say that from the minute you entered that sandbox or any of them that you could go anywhere and do anything you wanted in the game? No that's not how that sandbox was created there were many places in SWG that you were not going to unless you had worked through your base class into your complex class first. Life is a sandbox and even there the moment you are born, you have to grow uo a little bit before venturing out into the world.. Sandbox games would be no different.. Any mmo sandox or themepark needs some hand holding tutorial..
Far too often folks are mistaking being led into a certain kind of game play with being "free". In SWG you were free to be any non hero you wanted but that's about where it ended, and to me a sandbox especially as many of the sandbox gaming fans try to describe would allow me to play either the heroic or the mundane. I would disagree with you.. I and friends went into SWG from day 1 not knowing what we wanted to play and how.. Somehow in the first week I ended up following the path of musician and CH.. I picked up a couple pets, learned to shoot a pistol and became a master musician that was seeked out and invited into a city.. I was given aid to own my own cantina and theater within the city in which to earn a very positive reputation..
I mean honestly you think all the spying,defection and such that goes on in games like EVE and SWG are being done for any other reason than those people found themselves with nothing to do? Let me tell you.. if went down the path of business and crafting.. It next to impossible to not find something to do each day.. If I wasn't going around collecting my resources from harvesters, checking for NEW resources and locations, crafting NEW products, manufacturing, putting them up for sale, etc etc.. Crafting and player economy on my SWG was BOOMING.. and it was pure sandbox..
I remember by the time we started to get settled in on SWG with bases and guild alliances that at that point there wasn't much to do until folks began the spying, turning on each other and such simply to create the tensions that you describe as freedom. At the time I left SWG, the game started to faulter.. It was a great start to a sandbox mmo, however the devs left many things out of the game, many items still broken inside the game,, etc etc.. It was just incomplete and lacked vision.. However I would not say it was because SWG was sandbox.. it was a broken sandbox..
Sandbox game play will thrive when devs and the fans of sandbox realize that adding themepark elements don't take sand out of the box but adds it to it, much like themepark games do. I'm still trying to think of the things I could do in SWG that weren't possible in games like WOW or LOTRO but it isn't hard to think of the things those games offer that SWG didn't. I think you touched on one point that I tried to express to SOE long ago.. and still feel strong about it today.. There needs to be some themepark PvE elements in a sandbox to spark action.. Such as in SWG.. Have contested zones with a purpose of PvP.. As for the PvE elements, have Faction bases, like a huge Imperial Base that needs to be shut down and destroyed.. Make the Imps defend it.. Same for having quest targets inside some cities.. The whole Jedi issue was just a big turnoff as well.. It was handled wrong from the start and never got on track..
As for WoW .. INSTANCED housing for players and guilds.. Having the ability to build a house or guild hall ANYWHERE was great.. I just wish it was tweaked a lil bit.. Parts of it stumbled.. SWG having the ability to allow characters to change what they were using the skill system was nice.. Sniper today, TKA tomorrow.. (slightly exagerated but you know what I mean).. WoW and LoTRO require you to build ALTS.. However I wouldn't want to seriously compare sandbox vs themepark using those games.. WoW and LoTRO are like the king and queen of themepark ( grade A ).. but SWG as a Sandbox only gets a C grade at best..
IMO.. a Sandbox should never had an "End Game".. and to me end game is exactly that.. you are at the end and are treading water to stay afloat..
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But in themepark everyone is the hero and you meet all the other heroes outside the auction house. If that does not seem ridiculous to the OP then he had better just buy the next ticket for his funfair ride.
Without examples, that's just a bunch of hot air.
All the themeparks I've ever played present what limited "Heroship" they have in terms of one NPC going "zomg, you're a frickin hero!" and at most getting the entire village to devote 10 secs to cheering for you.
The above in no way makes you feel like "the" hero, except perhaps in the eyes of those 3-6 NPCs. You're not "the chosen one" by any stretch, and the majority of your actions don't even get the praise mentioned above.
While it's true that you do more interesting things in Themeparks on average, the "hero" strand of this thread is a pretty flimsy argument. I mean EVE basically told me "Go AFK at this asteroid for 10 minutes" while WOW said "Here go pick berries, now go wake peons, now go harvest some crabs, now go defeat some trolls to make our village safer, oh and kill the named voodoo witchdoctor too! Oh and collect my brother's skull while you're at it, the witchdoctor has it in his voodoo circle." That is the real difference between themeparks and sandboxes. It's a bunch of varied (and often more interesting) content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But in themepark everyone is the hero and you meet all the other heroes outside the auction house. If that does not seem ridiculous to the OP then he had better just buy the next ticket for his funfair ride.
Without examples, that's just a bunch of hot air.
All the themeparks I've ever played present what limited "Heroship" they have in terms of one NPC going "zomg, you're a frickin hero!" and at most getting the entire village to devote 10 secs to cheering for you.
The above in no way makes you feel like "the" hero, except perhaps in the eyes of those 3-6 NPCs. You're not "the chosen one" by any stretch, and the majority of your actions don't even get the praise mentioned above.
While it's true that you do more interesting things in Themeparks on average, the "hero" strand of this thread is a pretty flimsy argument. I mean EVE basically told me "Go AFK at this asteroid for 10 minutes" while WOW said "Here go pick berries, now go wake peons, now go harvest some crabs, now go defeat some trolls to make our village safer, oh and kill the named voodoo witchdoctor too! Oh and collect my brother's skull while you're at it, the witchdoctor has it in his voodoo circle." That is the real difference between themeparks and sandboxes. It's a bunch of varied (and often more interesting) content.
Good point made and very true too. I think as I stated once earlier today the biggest difference between sandbox and themepark (from the demands we put on the devs) is sandboxes have complex systems with little not content while themeparks have simple systems but infinitely more content.
Me I love a complex game like SWG was designed but what I learned is I hated the gameplay you are pretty much forced into by the lack of meaningful content.
Many people say in sandboxes you write your own story but I think that's an overstatement in a sandbox you basically have a book full of a bunch of names but what exactly is it being done that's worth writing about? I personally would much rather read a book that played out like the epic story line of LOTRO any day over something that played out like the experiences available in SWG (for the record I've attended some very nice rp weddings and events in LOTRO too).
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
But in themepark everyone is the hero and you meet all the other heroes outside the auction house. If that does not seem ridiculous to the OP then he had better just buy the next ticket for his funfair ride.
Without examples, that's just a bunch of hot air.
All the themeparks I've ever played present what limited "Heroship" they have in terms of one NPC going "zomg, you're a frickin hero!" and at most getting the entire village to devote 10 secs to cheering for you.
The above in no way makes you feel like "the" hero, except perhaps in the eyes of those 3-6 NPCs. You're not "the chosen one" by any stretch, and the majority of your actions don't even get the praise mentioned above.
While it's true that you do more interesting things in Themeparks on average, the "hero" strand of this thread is a pretty flimsy argument. I mean EVE basically told me "Go AFK at this asteroid for 10 minutes" while WOW said "Here go pick berries, now go wake peons, now go harvest some crabs, now go defeat some trolls to make our village safer, oh and kill the named voodoo witchdoctor too! Oh and collect my brother's skull while you're at it, the witchdoctor has it in his voodoo circle." That is the real difference between themeparks and sandboxes. It's a bunch of varied (and often more interesting) content.
When I first played Aion , I thought OMG I am a freaking hero!!!!. I will own all in my path!... until I walked out of veteran and got ass raped by some big ugly walking crab. Then a couple of players started to LOL at me and called me a n00b.
I was looking over all this reasons people come up with. And people overlook the simplest reason.
All I need is tell my wow guidlmates the game is FFA PVP with full loot, and 90% of them wont' play. And apparently almost all sandbox game is FFA PVP with full loot.
But in themepark everyone is the hero and you meet all the other heroes outside the auction house. If that does not seem ridiculous to the OP then he had better just buy the next ticket for his funfair ride.
Without examples, that's just a bunch of hot air.
All the themeparks I've ever played present what limited "Heroship" they have in terms of one NPC going "zomg, you're a frickin hero!" and at most getting the entire village to devote 10 secs to cheering for you.
The above in no way makes you feel like "the" hero, except perhaps in the eyes of those 3-6 NPCs. You're not "the chosen one" by any stretch, and the majority of your actions don't even get the praise mentioned above.
While it's true that you do more interesting things in Themeparks on average, the "hero" strand of this thread is a pretty flimsy argument. I mean EVE basically told me "Go AFK at this asteroid for 10 minutes" while WOW said "Here go pick berries, now go wake peons, now go harvest some crabs, now go defeat some trolls to make our village safer, oh and kill the named voodoo witchdoctor too! Oh and collect my brother's skull while you're at it, the witchdoctor has it in his voodoo circle." That is the real difference between themeparks and sandboxes. It's a bunch of varied (and often more interesting) content.
Yeah I don't agree with this whole "hero" thing.
Neither type makes me feel like a hero.
In sandbox games I invariably feel bogged down by mundane chores.
In EQ-clone DIKU games (i guess what people call themepark) there is such draconian "sameness" enforced via balance and class mechanics that I don't feel paricularly heroic, more like just one more schlub.
In the end how can you ever excel and still be playing a balanced game? Its a no win situation when analyzed this way. These games are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
As for a story driven MMO "epic" quest like LOTRO has making you feel like a hero. That a) if you pay attention to that at all and b) completely ignore that everyone else is doing it and you may have done it on multiple characters if you re-roll.
Its nice but its hardly anything major. I like the LOTRO storylines they are pretty good and presented well (i use that because it just plain better at it than WoW or EQ2) but I am not under any illusion I am hero because of them nor is anyone else really.
Originally posted by Rockgod99 I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
I would disagree whole heartedly. I think the reason they've never done as well is they chronically have horrible performance, a ui only a mother could love, and are not as well designed (because of lack of money) as your typical linear quest driven mmo with a hybrid pvp/raid end game.
That's the end result of no AAA developer making a sandbox. And why haven't they created one? Because sandbox design it self isnt appealing for the masses and no AAA dev is going to waste resources creating a mmo for such a niche group of players.
I disagree, eq1 was just first very successful venture so everyone followed... and then wow superseded it and everyone followed. Developers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Venture Capitalists hate to innovate when dealing with large budgets, it's risky. Sticking to a tried and truth path is safer, you may not get 7 digit subs but you can get 6 digit reliably. Taking a risk... scary, might get 7 digit subs but chances are higher you'll get 5 digit subs.
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Interesting, I am willing to bet there is a fully realized, Triple A MMORPG sandbox game in development right now and will be released in 4 years. /shrug
Many folks claim sandboxes to be the last bastion of "freedom" in video games and this is just not true, the gameplay features offered in sandboxes are what are considered to be standards fair for MMORPG's. All themeparks try to include these features, vast expanses to explore, crafting, roleplay tools, factions, etc.
Are you kidding me? LOL
Umm what about auction houses, PVP that is not FFA, quests that you need for a required reward or to unlock content, classes that limit your functionality, quick-travel, instances, invisible walls, . ... I could go on and on about how much more freedom I have than you.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Many folks claim sandboxes to be the last bastion of "freedom" in video games and this is just not true, the gameplay features offered in sandboxes are what are considered to be standards fair for MMORPG's. All themeparks try to include these features, vast expanses to explore, crafting, roleplay tools, factions, etc.
Are you kidding me? LOL
Umm what about auction houses, PVP that is not FFA, quests that you need for a required reward or to unlock content, classes that limit your functionality, quick-travel, instances, invisible walls, . ... I could go on and on about how much more freedom I have than you.
Anyone who doesn't feel that all MMORPGs -- even the themeparks -- have tons of player freedom/expression compared to other forms of entertainment is approaching the discussion with a blindfold on.
You list a bunch of ways themeparks fail to be Absolute Freedom. Name a sandbox, I'll give you an even longer list of ways that sandbox fails to provide Absolute Freedom. (which is of course a little obvious, since the concept of Absolute Freedom is something of an impossibility, even in real life. There are always constraints; rules; things you can't do.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
All these deep and philosophical reasons you all come up with and still you miss the real reason why it doesnt appeal to the masses.
Simply it just hasnt been done well yet.
I am going to have to go with real life is a sandbox. People who want to do great or amazing things will try that in real life. IMO, sandboxes won't be popular because those types of people I mentioned will find it rewarding in real life and think doing it in a video game is a fake nerdy thing. That is the bottom line to me.
Many folks claim sandboxes to be the last bastion of "freedom" in video games and this is just not true, the gameplay features offered in sandboxes are what are considered to be standards fair for MMORPG's. All themeparks try to include these features, vast expanses to explore, crafting, roleplay tools, factions, etc.
Are you kidding me? LOL
Umm what about auction houses, PVP that is not FFA, quests that you need for a required reward or to unlock content, classes that limit your functionality, quick-travel, instances, invisible walls, . ... I could go on and on about how much more freedom I have than you.
Anyone who doesn't feel that all MMORPGs -- even the themeparks -- have tons of player freedom/expression compared to other forms of entertainment is approaching the discussion with a blindfold on.
You list a bunch of ways themeparks fail to be Absolute Freedom. Name a sandbox, I'll give you an even longer list of ways that sandbox fails to provide Absolute Freedom. (which is of course a little obvious, since the concept of Absolute Freedom is something of an impossibility, even in real life. There are always constraints; rules; things you can't do.)
Sandboxes offer more freedom and more potential for a player then themeparks. That doesn't mean there is no freedom of any kind in themeparks though ofc.
Absolute freedom is the domain of the mad.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Many folks claim sandboxes to be the last bastion of "freedom" in video games and this is just not true, the gameplay features offered in sandboxes are what are considered to be standards fair for MMORPG's. All themeparks try to include these features, vast expanses to explore, crafting, roleplay tools, factions, etc.
Are you kidding me? LOL
Umm what about auction houses, PVP that is not FFA, quests that you need for a required reward or to unlock content, classes that limit your functionality, quick-travel, instances, invisible walls, . ... I could go on and on about how much more freedom I have than you.
PVP does NOT have to be FFA. Besides that , they have FFA in AOC. I didn't like it very much, but it was fun if you had a group of people or guild.
I prefer the faction vs faction pvp, that way you don't have to worry about everyone ganging up on you all the time.
Now if you mean open world pvp without a flag system, than I would have to agree with you.
Comments
That was down to your style of play friend
I had a job and a child and still loved Everquest. I also maxed level and was one of the most well known Rangers on my server! Why?...because i could solo very well, which made me invaluble when there was the threat of a wipe in a group. and as for taking of the tinted glasses....i still play Everquest. and thats after, WoW, Lotro, vanguard, atlantica, Aoc, WAR, Darkfall, FE and many more.......and still i enjoy EQ more?
I think most people refer to sandbox due to thier enjoyment and ability to make thier own adventure! whatever game they play!
Space captain piloting a Titan or controlling half of "space oil" resources is not exactly "nobody". Even semi casual owning his own non-instanced fortress in uncharted space is far from "nobody".
Sandboxes either do not have developer generated content besides the barebones (EvE) or they have to water down the content that they have (EQ and everything else with overdone time sinks, including LOTRO) or have ten times more AAA grade content then WoW (don't be silly).
The price of freedom is too high. Hamburgers are more convenient than raw steak and cup of flour when all you want is little snack.
That and MMOs fail badly at social tools. Being alone in movies is bearable, being alone in chess club is...
You obviously understand it differently than I do since to me the fake heroics in sandboxes are pretty much the same as the fake heroics in themparks. And I have played both types of games as well. Maybe your definition of 'fake' is different than mine.
Many folks claim sandboxes to be the last bastion of "freedom" in video games and this is just not true, the gameplay features offered in sandboxes are what are considered to be standards fair for MMORPG's. All themeparks try to include these features, vast expanses to explore, crafting, roleplay tools, factions, etc.
Sandboxes (due in large part to the lame attitude of sandbox fans) are often developed in lazy barebones ways. what has happened is that themeparks often use simple systems but are chocked full of content while sandboxes use complex systems and have little to no content.
I have asked the question many times but have never seen an answer from any of the players who tend to draw these battle lines, why must a sandbox also have no content at all? Why was SWG better because it was filled with "generic" jobs for quests but offered little to no alternate meaningful questing? i remember some feature in SWG that did have you go to a cantina and speak to Han Solo and I recall everyone engaging in that content and enjoying it why would it have been bad for them to include more of that?
When people take off the rose colored glasses and start to admit that sandboxes offer no more freedom than themeparks then sandbox devs will start to actually work for your money and that sub genre will grow.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
So what you're saying is that you play games for the atmosphere and cinematic experience, both of which are fabricated and spoon fed to players in themepark games. Battle music and spooky sights don't mentally stimulate me. Tension, unpredictabilty and a sense of danger as a result of an unrestricted dynamic playing field do.
High artistic quality is not just limited to themepark games. EVE Online, I would say, has amazing artistic and philosophical quality. Sandbox games requires the player to ponder the depth and complexity of social, political and economic interaction.
well that's one way to say it.
But that can easily be colored in the same manner you explained his preference.
One could easily say "wandering around until someone jumps out of the dark and says 'boo' becomes tiresome after a while. In addition, the steady 'I got you/you got me' of many pvp games and the constant trash talking ends up becoming sophmoric".
There are many ways to color something one doesn't like.
I have yet to experience any lofty content in ffa pvp games where there is unpredictability and a sense of danger. I like the sense of danger. But from what I've seen there seems to be a great amount of "you ganked me so I'm going to get my buds, now you are going to get your buds", etc.
I would agree that there is more of a sense of ownership, at least for me, in games like Lineage 2. But at the same time, after playing that game for many years, I have yet to see a grand scope of an actual story between players.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I wouldn't say that is true. No MMO, thus far, I would say has much artistic quality hopefully they will eventually, but not at this point. I found Eve really hard to get into, and it certainly didn't make me ponder any philosophy, partly because the setting didn't do much for me, and though there were things going on, I found it hard to care, I think that it is because most, that is nearly all, of the conflict in Eve is between players, and I find it hard to care about what other players are doing when they don't make the effort to develop their characters personalities, the player may have personality but the character doesn't, so it really draws me out of the world. That is why i prefer for the developers to step in and create the content that the players are unwilling/unable to do, that is act with some emotional depth.
It would be nice if everyone roleplayed and were good at it, and not in the ye olde english way, but they don't unfortunately.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
These are the battle lines I often speak about being drawn by those who prefer sandbox gameplay to themepark. I think most would consider SWG to have been a sandbox game, battle music yep it was in there (the spooky sights thing don't get what that has to do with themepark).
But what I need to ask is where was all this freedom, are you trying to say that from the minute you entered that sandbox or any of them that you could go anywhere and do anything you wanted in the game? No that's not how that sandbox was created there were many places in SWG that you were not going to unless you had worked through your base class into your complex class first.
Far too often folks are mistaking being led into a certain kind of game play with being "free". In SWG you were free to be any non hero you wanted but that's about where it ended, and to me a sandbox especially as many of the sandbox gaming fans try to describe would allow me to play either the heroic or the mundane.
I mean honestly you think all the spying,defection and such that goes on in games like EVE and SWG are being done for any other reason than those people found themselves with nothing to do?
I remember by the time we started to get settled in on SWG with bases and guild alliances that at that point there wasn't much to do until folks began the spying, turning on each other and such simply to create the tensions that you describe as freedom.
Sandbox game play will thrive when devs and the fans of sandbox realize that adding themepark elements don't take sand out of the box but adds it to it, much like themepark games do. I'm still trying to think of the things I could do in SWG that weren't possible in games like WOW or LOTRO but it isn't hard to think of the things those games offer that SWG didn't.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
As for WoW .. INSTANCED housing for players and guilds.. Having the ability to build a house or guild hall ANYWHERE was great.. I just wish it was tweaked a lil bit.. Parts of it stumbled.. SWG having the ability to allow characters to change what they were using the skill system was nice.. Sniper today, TKA tomorrow.. (slightly exagerated but you know what I mean).. WoW and LoTRO require you to build ALTS.. However I wouldn't want to seriously compare sandbox vs themepark using those games.. WoW and LoTRO are like the king and queen of themepark ( grade A ).. but SWG as a Sandbox only gets a C grade at best..
IMO.. a Sandbox should never had an "End Game".. and to me end game is exactly that.. you are at the end and are treading water to stay afloat..
All these deep and philosophical reasons you all come up with and still you miss the real reason why it doesnt appeal to the masses.
Simply it just hasnt been done well yet.
LOL, agreed, thread closed.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
UO.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Without examples, that's just a bunch of hot air.
All the themeparks I've ever played present what limited "Heroship" they have in terms of one NPC going "zomg, you're a frickin hero!" and at most getting the entire village to devote 10 secs to cheering for you.
The above in no way makes you feel like "the" hero, except perhaps in the eyes of those 3-6 NPCs. You're not "the chosen one" by any stretch, and the majority of your actions don't even get the praise mentioned above.
While it's true that you do more interesting things in Themeparks on average, the "hero" strand of this thread is a pretty flimsy argument. I mean EVE basically told me "Go AFK at this asteroid for 10 minutes" while WOW said "Here go pick berries, now go wake peons, now go harvest some crabs, now go defeat some trolls to make our village safer, oh and kill the named voodoo witchdoctor too! Oh and collect my brother's skull while you're at it, the witchdoctor has it in his voodoo circle." That is the real difference between themeparks and sandboxes. It's a bunch of varied (and often more interesting) content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Good point made and very true too. I think as I stated once earlier today the biggest difference between sandbox and themepark (from the demands we put on the devs) is sandboxes have complex systems with little not content while themeparks have simple systems but infinitely more content.
Me I love a complex game like SWG was designed but what I learned is I hated the gameplay you are pretty much forced into by the lack of meaningful content.
Many people say in sandboxes you write your own story but I think that's an overstatement in a sandbox you basically have a book full of a bunch of names but what exactly is it being done that's worth writing about? I personally would much rather read a book that played out like the epic story line of LOTRO any day over something that played out like the experiences available in SWG (for the record I've attended some very nice rp weddings and events in LOTRO too).
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
When I first played Aion , I thought OMG I am a freaking hero!!!!. I will own all in my path!... until I walked out of veteran and got ass raped by some big ugly walking crab. Then a couple of players started to LOL at me and called me a n00b.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
I was looking over all this reasons people come up with. And people overlook the simplest reason.
All I need is tell my wow guidlmates the game is FFA PVP with full loot, and 90% of them wont' play. And apparently almost all sandbox game is FFA PVP with full loot.
Yeah I don't agree with this whole "hero" thing.
Neither type makes me feel like a hero.
In sandbox games I invariably feel bogged down by mundane chores.
In EQ-clone DIKU games (i guess what people call themepark) there is such draconian "sameness" enforced via balance and class mechanics that I don't feel paricularly heroic, more like just one more schlub.
In the end how can you ever excel and still be playing a balanced game? Its a no win situation when analyzed this way. These games are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
As for a story driven MMO "epic" quest like LOTRO has making you feel like a hero. That a) if you pay attention to that at all and b) completely ignore that everyone else is doing it and you may have done it on multiple characters if you re-roll.
Its nice but its hardly anything major. I like the LOTRO storylines they are pretty good and presented well (i use that because it just plain better at it than WoW or EQ2) but I am not under any illusion I am hero because of them nor is anyone else really.
I disagree, eq1 was just first very successful venture so everyone followed... and then wow superseded it and everyone followed. Developers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Venture Capitalists hate to innovate when dealing with large budgets, it's risky. Sticking to a tried and truth path is safer, you may not get 7 digit subs but you can get 6 digit reliably. Taking a risk... scary, might get 7 digit subs but chances are higher you'll get 5 digit subs.
Shadus
Interesting, I am willing to bet there is a fully realized, Triple A MMORPG sandbox game in development right now and will be released in 4 years. /shrug
Are you kidding me? LOL
Umm what about auction houses, PVP that is not FFA, quests that you need for a required reward or to unlock content, classes that limit your functionality, quick-travel, instances, invisible walls, . ... I could go on and on about how much more freedom I have than you.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Anyone who doesn't feel that all MMORPGs -- even the themeparks -- have tons of player freedom/expression compared to other forms of entertainment is approaching the discussion with a blindfold on.
You list a bunch of ways themeparks fail to be Absolute Freedom. Name a sandbox, I'll give you an even longer list of ways that sandbox fails to provide Absolute Freedom. (which is of course a little obvious, since the concept of Absolute Freedom is something of an impossibility, even in real life. There are always constraints; rules; things you can't do.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am going to have to go with real life is a sandbox. People who want to do great or amazing things will try that in real life. IMO, sandboxes won't be popular because those types of people I mentioned will find it rewarding in real life and think doing it in a video game is a fake nerdy thing. That is the bottom line to me.
Sandboxes offer more freedom and more potential for a player then themeparks. That doesn't mean there is no freedom of any kind in themeparks though ofc.
Absolute freedom is the domain of the mad.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
PVP does NOT have to be FFA. Besides that , they have FFA in AOC. I didn't like it very much, but it was fun if you had a group of people or guild.
I prefer the faction vs faction pvp, that way you don't have to worry about everyone ganging up on you all the time.
Now if you mean open world pvp without a flag system, than I would have to agree with you.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"