This thread is where the downfall of this game begins... Speculation turns into wishlists and demands, building expectations that can never be met, all based on absolute garbage.
You know releasing this game as Vampire the Masquerade would be the perfect excuse to re-release the old version. Bit of new artwork, couple of in MMO items when you by one of the re-released rpg books and £kerching$!
I guess since Bin Laden is currently suspected of hiding in Pakistan, that doesn't count as a terrorist then? Hm, Were you born after 2001? The immature *eyeroll* gave it away apparently.
But I digress. Facts about terrorists in Pakistan, isn't why I posted. I was only stating my opinion that CCP doesn't bother me in their developing WoD; as long as they stick to game development only.
Welcome to America; land of free opinions. Have a nice day.
You are pretty nieve Czanrei.
Sol if for example Irland was to suffer some naturall or man made disaster and a charity set up an aid program you would not help the innocents by donating money then?
CCP were not funding terrorist Duh!
They were funding international aid organisations who were helping victims of natural disater you know doing a Christian thing?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Herds could be like asteroid belts in EVE -- you travel out to an apartment complex, go from herd member to herd member drinking blood for hours at a time, then take the long journey back to your space sta--I mean your hovel/coffin. A city would be broken into sectors, perhaps each building representing a star system.
One section of the city could be perma-death -- maybe it has a Red Cross blood bank there as loot. Instead of 'Rats, you'd have Wolves that spawn for you to farm in a tenament building.
In my opinion they should have perma-death, with benchmarks of progression. Once you reach a certain level of power, if you die you lose your character, but you can reroll a new toon with X amount of points to distribute. Say the benchmarks are 100, 200, 300, etc and you die at 250... then you should reroll with only 200 points to distribute.
Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Uh wrong people. Its NOT VtM. Its VtR. It's NEW WoD. Not Old WoD. Sorry but there wont be Sabbat or Cam. White Wolf is pushing its new setting, not the old one. I wish people would keep up with the times instead of thinking Masquerade is still going.
This is nice. I love to see people mock others for ignorance, when their blatant ignorance is obvious from the thing they just said.
They have said they are using VtM, not VtR. Though in truth, I imagine they will use the far better lore from VtM with a bit less of the "on noes we all gonna die soon" theme. I refer of course to Gehenna.
White Wolf isn't pushing anything. White Wolf got owned, literally. CCP probably does not want to alienate people who prefer either setting. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Lets stay on the topic of the thread guys, anything else off topic will be deleted, and the user warned or banned. Remember our RoC when posting, thanks!
why did this thread change from a discussion on WOD to a discussion on permadeath? There is no succesful game out atm that has perma death, it is a shitty game mechanic. People get connected to their avatars/characters and thus are connected to the mmo, but when they aren't then the mmo just feels bland. Not to mention if you have characters dieing and changing names all of a sudden, then you get people who will grief, scam, steal to their hearts contents without anybody knowing who that person really is. (like with EVE and not being able to change your name and people with bad reputations are shunned) I also dont know why someone mentioned there wouldnt be any/much combat. I haven't played the PnP game, but what else would there be? How can you have political struggles or even territorial struggles if you cant have a war?
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Disappointed to hear that this is only going to be about the Vampire game. When i first heard about it I was thinking they have Werewolves, Mages, Changelings, etc as playables but it sounds like that is't the case.
Disappointed to hear that this is only going to be about the Vampire game. When i first heard about it I was thinking they have Werewolves, Mages, Changelings, etc as playables but it sounds like that is't the case.
Where did you get this idea from?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Disappointed to hear that this is only going to be about the Vampire game. When i first heard about it I was thinking they have Werewolves, Mages, Changelings, etc as playables but it sounds like that is't the case.
Disappointed to hear that this is only going to be about the Vampire game. When i first heard about it I was thinking they have Werewolves, Mages, Changelings, etc as playables but it sounds like that is't the case.
IIRC, initially it will only be Vampires. Nothing to stop them adding the others in future expansions. In fact I think they pretty much said this at the announcement. Vampires got done first because Vampires are more fashionable. I'd expect Werewolves to be next, because people understand the concept of Werewolves pretty well and they're comparitively simple to implement. Prolly about 12-24 months after launch, depending on how successful WoD is.
I'm really not sure that it would be possible to do Mage properly as a computer game. Not before we've developed strong AI. The magic in mage is just too freeform to translate well into a game, unless it was only set in the Umbra or something. I dunno, myabe they'd do that.
Changeling, Mummy: I have no idea, never played them
I fully expect CCP/WW to want werewolves, mages and all the other World of Darkness creatures in this MMO as much as everybody else. Hell, proberly more than most.
CCP is well known for expanding their games more "horizontally" (adding completely new game features) than "vertically" (adding to exsisting game features) to even such degree that EVE players have started complaining about it. Werewolves and mages will be around to play with one day and as such is the name World of Darkness well suited for this MMO.
UGGGH TWILIGHT BURN IN A FIRE!!!!!!!! :P sorry lol.
Anyways, interesting read, and I know its something that I have been pondering for what seems like years.
WOW Clone
Everything is called a wowclone anymore and am personally kind of sick and tired of the term. WoW did not create the genre and apart from the pug finder thingie I do not believe there is one single mechanic or system in WOW that wasn't lifted directly from some other game. Asheron's Call, EQ, DAOC, UO, Anarchy Online, Lineage 1 and 2, and more have all influenced Blizzard. These systems that have been regurgitated, have in many respects, 20 or 30 years of gaming behind them. Is every car on the road a Daimler or Oldsmobile clone? They all have round wheels on axles, they all have engines transmissions doors brakes carbeurators or fuel injection. They all have stereos, seatbelts, etc etc etc. So by "the community's" standards something like a McClaren is nothing more than a clone of a prius.
With every new game announced people cry its a wow clone. I do not believe that 99% of the people out there understand what the hell they are talking about and are endeavoring, unsuccessfully, to sound smart, experienced, and insightful. This is not just directed towards the community but for a whole lot of people that run these fun little time wasting sites as well. From here, massively, etc, are a ton of 20 somethings who's first experience with gaming was on a playstation 2 or newer, and have no idea about hte history of gaming and apart from Super Mario haven't experienced the true classics.
I personaly think that we the older players are responsible for making up the term clone.
What I would like you to ask yourself is this dose UO, Lineage2, Doac, EVE and world of warcraft play the same? Do they even feel like they where ment for the same audiance? Or are they more like comparing Drama movies to comedies, and action? My point is this! All the games post 2004 had thier own style and thier own systems that the developers thought would be cool in thier gameworld.
Now lets look at after 2004 games, AOC, Warhammer online, Champions online, Lotro comes to mind.
Now lets ask some questions.
1. Are there a difference in the games death penalty system? for the post 2004 games we see that all those 5 games have huge diffrences. UO being the harshest an Word of warcraft being the lightest. But when we look at all the games made after 2004 there system are mostly the same, they have no real penalties for dying. What come from 2004 introduced the lighter death penalties?? World of Warcraft.
2. Are there Raids in the games? If we look at the games post 2004 we see that they operate on totaly diffrent systems and none of them exept Word of Warcraft ofc have the raiding system many now how gotten so used to. Now take a look at the games after 2004 do they all have a Raid system, HELL yes!. What game introduced this system as we see it in games today Word of Warcraft.
3. Dose the game have casual pvp? and by this I mean pvp that dosent mean anything in terms of personal risk of loosing gear or territories(that actually mather to lose). Post 2004 games have no casual pvp elements exept Word of warcraft ofc. You get your gear smashed and destroyed you lose exp and alot of other things but the mechanic is harsh for pvp activity. And then we go over to the newer games. And what do we find guess? NO harsh death penalties at all. Who intruduced this to the Genre in a large scale? World of Warcraft.
4. Dose the game have serious crafting in a way that you could make it your prime occupation in the game? Yes for the post 2004 games and ofc NO for the games relesed after....
I can go on and on but I think I have proven my point. The enormous success of world of warcraft has effected the post 2004 MMO games in a fundemental fashion.
What are we left with, I would say that we have 4 games, AOC, WAR, Lotro and champions online that are bascily the same game. I feel asbolutly no diffrence when I play them... NONE... the mechanics betwen them are so close that the little things that set them apart dont make up for it. They have all become boring to me as I feel that I have done it before... And why is this have I burned myself out on MMOS you ask? NO I still play EVE to this day.. but its not fun to start up a new MMO and after 2 hours Know all the mechanics and what to expect at every corner of the game as they are so closly based on the same functions.....Developers NEED to get A HINT people DONT WANT TO PLAY THE SAME GAME OVER AND OVER JUST becuase one game that functions like this have become a HUGE SUCCESS.
Look back and see what those other good games post 2004 had? try and mix it up a bit instead of copy past from Word of Warcraft.
PS: We are lucky its CCP making this game becuase any other studio would probably be trying to make Twilight WoW vampries.... to cash in on the recent success of the movies and ofc of the 10million subscribers that world of warcraft have... But CCP have Iclandic people running the show and those VIKINGS dont bend like the girlymen of the american studios..
Problem with perma-death as stated above, is there ia alot that can go wrong. Not to mention with an MMO you put "alot" of time into your character. So I see very small market of people who are ok with that.
I for one I am not ok with perma death in an MMO, just doesn't belong.
Originally posted by Zakane Problem with perma-death as stated above, is there ia alot that can go wrong. Not to mention with an MMO you put "alot" of time into your character. So I see very small market of people who are ok with that.
I for one I am not ok with perma death in an MMO, just doesn't belong.
I like the idea of permadeath being possible, but very hard to get to, with most failure, and your traditional lose a fight death results in torpor or the like. This is an IP where it makes perfect sense to not actually die when you die. But having the threat of the Final Death looming over you, that you can really die, and lose all your hard work, could add a certain level of suspense, if done well. Perhaps you could suffer the Final Death only against certain enemies, or in certain locations, or if you fulfil a certain set of requirements that put you in greater danger. It could be terrible and upsetting, or it could be fantastic.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It will not just be vampires at launch. Mortals will also be playable. Granted, it has not been made clear whether that means ghouls, hunters or anything else. And mortal characters will probably be able to access the world in daytime mode as well. They could easily implement that like Age of Conan did in Tortage. When you leave your haven/home, you select if you want to go out during daytime or nighttime. Vampires will NOT get this option of course.
Perma death is PERFECT for the White Wolf gaming communtiy and is not alien to the CCP fanbase who already can permadie in EVE. It creates an atmosphere of cooperation and people wont jump into PVP like those mad children in WOW do and do suicide deaths. The poeple really against this want that very thing casual, meaningless pvp and gear progression. Not to mention it by definition means the game wont be RAID/Progression based, ANY kind of permadeath is bad for raid progression kids and the thought of it being one of the first additions to the game scares them to death, because they know when the next WOW clone goes down the drain their is no other place for them to go.
Lets face it, they had their way with The old Repulblic and every other WOW clone in the last 6+ years and they have all been pathetic disasters, CCP didnt make money copying WOW or trying to attrack WOW kids, they made it by giving WOW the bird.
It also creates a system in which its not absurdly easy to kill someone, lets face it in a perma death system battle is going to be somehing you really want to think about. But I'm not worried, just when EVER has CCP made a game that catered to Kids, I advise if you want that play TOR or WOW.. run around like idiots to your hearts content, the stars dont seem to be alighned for you guys to ruin WOD, doesn't look like the Progression crowd is going to win this one.
Also I agree it looks like VtM is in and Requiem is out, which is good, I figure the new rule books with the old clan names will be back shortly before the game is out. And thank god for that.
characters can't permadie in EVE. one can lose fraction of skillpoints if without proper clone, but most people learn quick to keep clone updated. it literally takes dozens pod-deaths without clone to be reduced to default clone. at higher SP, clones get expensive, and pod-death management becomes an issue. but your character will NEVER get deleted, unless you recycle him yourself.
note that permadeath is bad for roleplayers, as well, and that's major target audience for Vampire. imo, only way for permadeath to work is if one breaks Masquerade too many times and gets targeted by Blood Hunt. or if player chooses to delete his own character.
for casualy strolling down the street, minding your own business and getting gangbanged to oblivion, it won't happen.
You can have a strong death penalty without permadeath or item loss, lets leave that idea in the bin. A non recoverable xp penalty is all you would need.
A huge problem integrating Vampires with other WoD characters is the issue of night. Vampires are only awake at night but other characters are awake during the day. The best time to "fight" a vamp is when he's asleep. Imagine logging on and finding out your vamp is asleep for the next 4 hours.
Comments
This thread is where the downfall of this game begins... Speculation turns into wishlists and demands, building expectations that can never be met, all based on absolute garbage.
I want my Antediluvian! I want him now!
You know releasing this game as Vampire the Masquerade would be the perfect excuse to re-release the old version. Bit of new artwork, couple of in MMO items when you by one of the re-released rpg books and £kerching$!
You are pretty nieve Czanrei.
Sol if for example Irland was to suffer some naturall or man made disaster and a charity set up an aid program you would not help the innocents by donating money then?
CCP were not funding terrorist Duh!
They were funding international aid organisations who were helping victims of natural disater you know doing a Christian thing?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Herds could be like asteroid belts in EVE -- you travel out to an apartment complex, go from herd member to herd member drinking blood for hours at a time, then take the long journey back to your space sta--I mean your hovel/coffin. A city would be broken into sectors, perhaps each building representing a star system.
One section of the city could be perma-death -- maybe it has a Red Cross blood bank there as loot. Instead of 'Rats, you'd have Wolves that spawn for you to farm in a tenament building.
I can see it now...
In my opinion they should have perma-death, with benchmarks of progression. Once you reach a certain level of power, if you die you lose your character, but you can reroll a new toon with X amount of points to distribute. Say the benchmarks are 100, 200, 300, etc and you die at 250... then you should reroll with only 200 points to distribute.
Always looking for unique ip's.Im bored of same wow clones elves and dwarfs etc.
This is nice. I love to see people mock others for ignorance, when their blatant ignorance is obvious from the thing they just said.
They have said they are using VtM, not VtR. Though in truth, I imagine they will use the far better lore from VtM with a bit less of the "on noes we all gonna die soon" theme. I refer of course to Gehenna.
White Wolf isn't pushing anything. White Wolf got owned, literally. CCP probably does not want to alienate people who prefer either setting. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Lets stay on the topic of the thread guys, anything else off topic will be deleted, and the user warned or banned. Remember our RoC when posting, thanks!
lol Peradeath? wow this game will join Warhammer,TR,AoC,HG:L and others in the list of failed MMOs.
Another thing. IMO you people getting a bit too over hyped by WoD. Over Hype leads to disapointment.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
why did this thread change from a discussion on WOD to a discussion on permadeath? There is no succesful game out atm that has perma death, it is a shitty game mechanic. People get connected to their avatars/characters and thus are connected to the mmo, but when they aren't then the mmo just feels bland. Not to mention if you have characters dieing and changing names all of a sudden, then you get people who will grief, scam, steal to their hearts contents without anybody knowing who that person really is. (like with EVE and not being able to change your name and people with bad reputations are shunned) I also dont know why someone mentioned there wouldnt be any/much combat. I haven't played the PnP game, but what else would there be? How can you have political struggles or even territorial struggles if you cant have a war?
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Disappointed to hear that this is only going to be about the Vampire game. When i first heard about it I was thinking they have Werewolves, Mages, Changelings, etc as playables but it sounds like that is't the case.
Where did you get this idea from?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Vampire: The Masquerade was my favourite game of the bunch anyway. No problems with it being vampire-centric only.
IIRC, initially it will only be Vampires. Nothing to stop them adding the others in future expansions. In fact I think they pretty much said this at the announcement. Vampires got done first because Vampires are more fashionable. I'd expect Werewolves to be next, because people understand the concept of Werewolves pretty well and they're comparitively simple to implement. Prolly about 12-24 months after launch, depending on how successful WoD is.
I'm really not sure that it would be possible to do Mage properly as a computer game. Not before we've developed strong AI. The magic in mage is just too freeform to translate well into a game, unless it was only set in the Umbra or something. I dunno, myabe they'd do that.
Changeling, Mummy: I have no idea, never played them
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I fully expect CCP/WW to want werewolves, mages and all the other World of Darkness creatures in this MMO as much as everybody else. Hell, proberly more than most.
CCP is well known for expanding their games more "horizontally" (adding completely new game features) than "vertically" (adding to exsisting game features) to even such degree that EVE players have started complaining about it. Werewolves and mages will be around to play with one day and as such is the name World of Darkness well suited for this MMO.
I personaly think that we the older players are responsible for making up the term clone.
What I would like you to ask yourself is this dose UO, Lineage2, Doac, EVE and world of warcraft play the same? Do they even feel like they where ment for the same audiance? Or are they more like comparing Drama movies to comedies, and action? My point is this! All the games post 2004 had thier own style and thier own systems that the developers thought would be cool in thier gameworld.
Now lets look at after 2004 games, AOC, Warhammer online, Champions online, Lotro comes to mind.
Now lets ask some questions.
1. Are there a difference in the games death penalty system? for the post 2004 games we see that all those 5 games have huge diffrences. UO being the harshest an Word of warcraft being the lightest. But when we look at all the games made after 2004 there system are mostly the same, they have no real penalties for dying. What come from 2004 introduced the lighter death penalties?? World of Warcraft.
2. Are there Raids in the games? If we look at the games post 2004 we see that they operate on totaly diffrent systems and none of them exept Word of Warcraft ofc have the raiding system many now how gotten so used to. Now take a look at the games after 2004 do they all have a Raid system, HELL yes!. What game introduced this system as we see it in games today Word of Warcraft.
3. Dose the game have casual pvp? and by this I mean pvp that dosent mean anything in terms of personal risk of loosing gear or territories(that actually mather to lose). Post 2004 games have no casual pvp elements exept Word of warcraft ofc. You get your gear smashed and destroyed you lose exp and alot of other things but the mechanic is harsh for pvp activity. And then we go over to the newer games. And what do we find guess? NO harsh death penalties at all. Who intruduced this to the Genre in a large scale? World of Warcraft.
4. Dose the game have serious crafting in a way that you could make it your prime occupation in the game? Yes for the post 2004 games and ofc NO for the games relesed after....
I can go on and on but I think I have proven my point. The enormous success of world of warcraft has effected the post 2004 MMO games in a fundemental fashion.
What are we left with, I would say that we have 4 games, AOC, WAR, Lotro and champions online that are bascily the same game. I feel asbolutly no diffrence when I play them... NONE... the mechanics betwen them are so close that the little things that set them apart dont make up for it. They have all become boring to me as I feel that I have done it before... And why is this have I burned myself out on MMOS you ask? NO I still play EVE to this day.. but its not fun to start up a new MMO and after 2 hours Know all the mechanics and what to expect at every corner of the game as they are so closly based on the same functions.....Developers NEED to get A HINT people DONT WANT TO PLAY THE SAME GAME OVER AND OVER JUST becuase one game that functions like this have become a HUGE SUCCESS.
Look back and see what those other good games post 2004 had? try and mix it up a bit instead of copy past from Word of Warcraft.
PS: We are lucky its CCP making this game becuase any other studio would probably be trying to make Twilight WoW vampries.... to cash in on the recent success of the movies and ofc of the 10million subscribers that world of warcraft have... But CCP have Iclandic people running the show and those VIKINGS dont bend like the girlymen of the american studios..
Problem with perma-death as stated above, is there ia alot that can go wrong. Not to mention with an MMO you put "alot" of time into your character. So I see very small market of people who are ok with that.
I for one I am not ok with perma death in an MMO, just doesn't belong.
I like the idea of permadeath being possible, but very hard to get to, with most failure, and your traditional lose a fight death results in torpor or the like. This is an IP where it makes perfect sense to not actually die when you die. But having the threat of the Final Death looming over you, that you can really die, and lose all your hard work, could add a certain level of suspense, if done well. Perhaps you could suffer the Final Death only against certain enemies, or in certain locations, or if you fulfil a certain set of requirements that put you in greater danger. It could be terrible and upsetting, or it could be fantastic.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
It will not just be vampires at launch. Mortals will also be playable. Granted, it has not been made clear whether that means ghouls, hunters or anything else. And mortal characters will probably be able to access the world in daytime mode as well. They could easily implement that like Age of Conan did in Tortage. When you leave your haven/home, you select if you want to go out during daytime or nighttime. Vampires will NOT get this option of course.
Perma death is PERFECT for the White Wolf gaming communtiy and is not alien to the CCP fanbase who already can permadie in EVE. It creates an atmosphere of cooperation and people wont jump into PVP like those mad children in WOW do and do suicide deaths. The poeple really against this want that very thing casual, meaningless pvp and gear progression. Not to mention it by definition means the game wont be RAID/Progression based, ANY kind of permadeath is bad for raid progression kids and the thought of it being one of the first additions to the game scares them to death, because they know when the next WOW clone goes down the drain their is no other place for them to go.
Lets face it, they had their way with The old Repulblic and every other WOW clone in the last 6+ years and they have all been pathetic disasters, CCP didnt make money copying WOW or trying to attrack WOW kids, they made it by giving WOW the bird.
It also creates a system in which its not absurdly easy to kill someone, lets face it in a perma death system battle is going to be somehing you really want to think about. But I'm not worried, just when EVER has CCP made a game that catered to Kids, I advise if you want that play TOR or WOW.. run around like idiots to your hearts content, the stars dont seem to be alighned for you guys to ruin WOD, doesn't look like the Progression crowd is going to win this one.
Also I agree it looks like VtM is in and Requiem is out, which is good, I figure the new rule books with the old clan names will be back shortly before the game is out. And thank god for that.
characters can't permadie in EVE. one can lose fraction of skillpoints if without proper clone, but most people learn quick to keep clone updated. it literally takes dozens pod-deaths without clone to be reduced to default clone. at higher SP, clones get expensive, and pod-death management becomes an issue. but your character will NEVER get deleted, unless you recycle him yourself.
note that permadeath is bad for roleplayers, as well, and that's major target audience for Vampire. imo, only way for permadeath to work is if one breaks Masquerade too many times and gets targeted by Blood Hunt. or if player chooses to delete his own character.
for casualy strolling down the street, minding your own business and getting gangbanged to oblivion, it won't happen.
You can have a strong death penalty without permadeath or item loss, lets leave that idea in the bin. A non recoverable xp penalty is all you would need.
i'd try it out. but only at the time i could play a Werewolf char. be it a patch or expansion, i don't knkow.
A huge problem integrating Vampires with other WoD characters is the issue of night. Vampires are only awake at night but other characters are awake during the day. The best time to "fight" a vamp is when he's asleep. Imagine logging on and finding out your vamp is asleep for the next 4 hours.