Few really care and are used to it since you find it in most skill based games due to the very nature by which stuff increases.
Some would love it to not exist or for skills & stats to rise faster by playing normally so one wouldn't feel compelled to macro. That is a legit desire and one I share but the reality of the situation is not a big deal; only used by those that don't like the game for one reason or another as a point to complain over.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Well akf swimming will get you like 1.30 quickness and like0.50 vitality in 7 hours. This is really the goal of afking non magic, base stats.
It will allow you to purchase racial skills and basic utility skills that may increase stamina regen or max health. These skills level slowly doing various activites that are unkown to me right now. So its best to get those early.
Overall base stats dont help all that much, other the having the ability to get general skills. In pvp your stats get debuffed away, vitality usually being the first thing to go.
So its not a huge advantage, but it does speed thing up nicely.
I think people care more about buying 100k worth of reagents then afk buffing yourself or friends for days untill the underlying school of magic is 100.
Because it reward those who don't actively play the game. There are 2 components of skill required for Darkfall one coming from personal twitch skill and the other is the so called "paper"-skill. The second one is crucial to MMO-genre. You get this from playing the game. AFK-macroing can't be seen at as "playing the game" but you gain paper skill while doing it which is against the spirit of the idea of "playiing the game" and get experience resulting to more "skill".
Second is it favorizes those who have the oppurtunity to let there pc running 24 / 7 vs those who can't which is not fair.
I understand you worrying about people having probably vilolated Aventurine's no macro policy made even clear very early already. On 03.03.2009 (which btw debunks the myth AV wasn't from first day strict aginst macroers and hackers) and just few days into launch AV made clear that macroing was not desired. But this beeing their first launched game and prob not having trained every GM properlyx and that early stage afk macroing has beeen occured. On the other hand many measures have been taken against this since being it through change of mechanics or through making the skill progress more accesible and easy and because macror got bored and left that i don't see it as big problem as many make it to be.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Well akf swimming will get you like 1.30 quickness and like0.50 vitality in 7 hours. This is really the goal of afking non magic, base stats.
This is only true when youa re low level. At level 80ish I gain about .15 for swimming all day. I get more by harvesting afk than swimming.
Why do people care about macroing? A very good reason.......
In the beginning AFK macroing was frowned upon this was only enforsed in NPC cities (the occasional GM would come by and log you out in player cities). When macroing and bloodwalls were rampant at early launch everyone stayed in thier cities afk mcoring and there was very little world PvP. Since most did not PvE they did not get the gold, reagents, items they needed to progress in the game.
Summary
Allowing AFK macoring allowed peope to screw themselves. The adverse impact of little world PvP, and the general ability for people to screw themselves developmentally (afk macoring is slow and expensive) lead to much whinign and complaining about the "grind" you see today.
People mention it favours players who can be logged in 24/7, but then doesn't every progressive leveling system favour players who are always online?
Personally I couldn't give a crap.
I don't know if I'd call it "unfair" since, theoretically, anyone could do it.
I personally think any kind of afk activity, be it botting, macroing - or anything intended to allow your character to advance without actually *playing* the game to be pretty lame.
I'm not at all "impressed" when someone brags about how skilled their character is, and then mentions that they afk macro'd to get it there.... as though it's some kind of accomplishment to cheat.
The most ridiculous example of this is when people actually pay a company to power-level their character for them.
It reminds me of when my brother and his girlfriend decided they wanted to play The Longest Journey. They were trying their damndest to play it, but the puzzles were giving them trouble. A couple days later, they tell me "We finished The Longest Journey. It wasn't that hard. We beat it in 2 days". Then they asked how long it took me to finish it. I said "about a week overall." They said "really? We didn't think it was that difficult".
Couple days later, I was at their apartment and happened to go into their computer room where I see, of all things, a complete printed-out walk-through guide for - you guessed it - The Longest Journey.. Ear-marked, and obviously very much used.
I said "so this is how you "beat the game" in 2 days huh?" They said "Yeah, but so what. We still beat it. That's what those guides exist for and some of the puzzles were too confusing to figure out on our own. They made the game too hard, so we had to use one". I said, "yet you told me "it wasn't that hard. Well of course it's not hard when you're using a walkthrough guide. I finished the game in about a week, entirely on my own, figuring everything out myself." They said, "Oh we weren't going to do that. It would have taken too long, we just wanted to get to the end".
...
So, they'd used a walkthrough for the entire game, bragged about how it only took them 2 days to finish, and then admitted that all they were interested in was getting to the end... so "the end justified the means" to them.
Sounds an awful lot like the mindset demonstrated by a lot of players who macro/bot their way through MMOs. Not just Darkfall, but any MMO... skill-based or otherwise. And, like my bro and his gf, such players always make it sound like "the game forced them to do it".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike Originally posted by bunnyhopper People mention it favours players who can be logged in 24/7, but then doesn't every progressive leveling system favour players who are always online? Personally I couldn't give a crap.
I don't know if I'd call it "unfair" since, theoretically, anyone could do it. I personally think any kind of afk activity, be it botting, macroing - or anything intended to allow your character to advance without actually *playing* the game to be pretty lame. I'm not at all "impressed" when someone brags about how skilled their character is, and then mentions that they afk macro'd to get it there.... as though it's some kind of accomplishment to cheat. The most ridiculous example of this is when people actually pay a company to power-level their character for them. It reminds me of when my brother and his girlfriend decided they wanted to play The Longest Journey. They were trying their damndest to play it, but the puzzles were giving them trouble. A couple days later, they tell me "We finished The Longest Journey. It wasn't that hard. We beat it in 2 days". Then they asked how long it took me to finish it. I said "about a week overall." They said "really? We didn't think it was that difficult". Couple days later, I was at their apartment and happened to go into their computer room where I see, of all things, a complete printed-out walk-through guide for - you guessed it - The Longest Journey.. Ear-marked, and obviously very much used. I said "so this is how you "beat the game" in 2 days huh?" They said "Yeah, but so what. We still beat it. That's what those guides exist for and some of the puzzles were too confusing to figure out on our own. They made the game too hard, so we had to use one". I said, "yet you told me "it wasn't that hard. Well of course it's not hard when you're using a walkthrough guide. I finished the game in about a week, entirely on my own, figuring everything out myself." They said, "Oh we weren't going to do that. It would have taken too long, we just wanted to get to the end". ... So, they'd used a walkthrough for the entire game, bragged about how it only took them 2 days to finish, and then admitted that all they were interested in was getting to the end... so "the end justified the means" to them. Sounds an awful lot like the mindset demonstrated by a lot of players who macro/bot their way through MMOs. Not just Darkfall, but any MMO... skill-based or otherwise. And, like my bro and his gf, such players always make it sound like "the game forced them to do it".
Applause this thread..
Unfortunatly, most people that has this mindset are often unaware that there is something wrong..If you tell them that they are cheating they will tell you all sorts of things as explanation for their behavior part from admitting that they are wrong.
TIME can or could be a valid excuse but why are you playing then..The grass isnt greener at the other side.
The moment you start to cheat that is also the moment you should ask yourself ..Why am I playing this game..?
On the other hand, we are all human individuals and if one person likes to cheat(for whatever reason) ..as long as it doesnt effect me..(most of the time in MMO's it does)then sure ..Go ahead.aslong as you are having fun..
cheating is like fastforwarding a movie or read the last page in a book.
Unfortunatly, most people that has this mindset are often unaware that there is something wrong..If you tell them that they are cheating they will tell you all sorts of things as explanation for their behavior part from admitting that they are wrong.
TIME can or could be a valid excuse but why are you playing then..The grass isnt greener at the other side.
The moment you start to cheat that is also the moment you should ask yourself ..Why am I playing this game..?
On the other hand, we are all human individuals and if one person likes to cheat(for whatever reason) ..as long as it doesnt effect me..(most of the time in MMO's it does)then sure ..Go ahead.aslong as you are having fun..
cheating is like fastforwarding a movie or read the last page in a book.
/junker
Nailed it perfectly in the blue bit. I wonder that all the time, myself.
People complain and complain about how they have to "suffer" through a game because of how awful the grind is and how they hate it... and I can't help but wonder "why the hell are you still playing something you're obviously not enjoying?"
The moment a game gives me the impression that "I have to suffer through a lot of miserable crap in hopes of getting to better stuff later"... I'm done. I log out, uninstall, cancel and that's that. If I'm not enjoying the game "right now", with whatever I'm doing... I'm done.
But then don't people do the same with forum posts?
How many times do you see people go into a thread and post something like,
"I am sick of having to waste my time reading posts like this..."
... then why the hell are they reading it... nevermind *responding* to it?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I can't really blame people for AFK macro grinding in Darkfall. Obtaining those skills through normal gameplay simply isn't all that fun for most people.
The problem is the fact that both the community and the game developers themselves have put so much of an emphasis on the end game that the leveling up process has become meaningless. In a game like World of Warcraft or EQ, there was always so much memorable content throughout the journey to the level cap.
What are you supposed to do in Darkfall? Solo grind?
If you have a few friends, I guess you can group together and mindlessly swing your sword at goblins for hours on end.
Unfortunatly, most people that has this mindset are often unaware that there is something wrong..If you tell them that they are cheating they will tell you all sorts of things as explanation for their behavior part from admitting that they are wrong.
TIME can or could be a valid excuse but why are you playing then..The grass isnt greener at the other side.
The moment you start to cheat that is also the moment you should ask yourself ..Why am I playing this game..?
On the other hand, we are all human individuals and if one person likes to cheat(for whatever reason) ..as long as it doesnt effect me..(most of the time in MMO's it does)then sure ..Go ahead.aslong as you are having fun..
cheating is like fastforwarding a movie or read the last page in a book.
/junker
Nailed it perfectly in the blue bit. I wonder that all the time, myself.
People complain and complain about how they have to "suffer" through a game because of how awful the grind is and how they hate it... and I can't help but wonder "why the hell are you still playing something you're obviously not enjoying?"
The moment a game gives me the impression that "I have to suffer through a lot of miserable crap in hopes of getting to better stuff later"... I'm done. I log out, uninstall, cancel and that's that. If I'm not enjoying the game "right now", with whatever I'm doing... I'm done.
But then don't people do the same with forum posts?
How many times do you see people go into a thread and post something like,
"I am sick of having to waste my time reading posts like this..."
... then why the hell are they reading it... nevermind *responding* to it?
Best points in the thread above...
That said; folks are thinking about this too hard.
Vets don't want AFK macroing so that they can stay ahead.
Noobs aren't yet ready to tip over into the world of "cheating" (which it is).
Devs don't want it and claim they haven't from day 1. However, while they've taken steps to prevent and enforce it, it still slips by.
And my favorite? I don't want to leave my f**king computer running Darkfall 23/7, essentially making it a space heater in whichever room it sits (namely my bedroom), sucking up power while slowly eating away at my GPU's lifespan (let alone the rest of my components) just so I can keep up or catch up. Screw that.
The whole macro + life-devouring style of grind is why I cancelled and have yet to go back. I'm still tempted to go back and try it out with some of the latest updates, and especially with DF2010. Of course, I'd be back in a blink if they'd start a fresh server and kill the possibility of AFK swimming and macroing along with reduce the necessity of doing such things (ie. reduce the damned grind). $.02
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
See, I guess I just approach the game (or any MMO really) from a completely different mindset.
I mean I can *see* where it might feel like a grind to some people, and become obnoxious... I just don't experience it that way due to the way I play...I guess. Not saying it's "better" or "worse"... just maybe a "cause and effect" scenario.
I log in and decide what I feel like doing at that moment. Checking out my character's stats, or perhaps sorting through my bank to see what I have on hand, I find I have a surplus of materials I gathered on a previous session. Perfect.. I'll start off by training up my crafting skills... earn some skill-ups, get rid of the surplus materials and have some gear to either hold on to, sell off or give to newer players who perhaps don't have anything decent yet.
That's done... okay what next... Well, I'd like to work on my dagger skills some more. Okay, so I gear up, get the daggers out and head out to hunt some mobs, picking up some loot along the way to sell or store when I get back.. I do that as long as it remains entertaining/enjoyable to me. When it starts feeling boring (aka "like a grind") about an hour or so later, maybe more, maybe less - depending on my mood - I stop and head back to town. Now what to do... Well, since I crafted up all my supplies, I suppose I could do well to replace what I've used.. So, I get myself ready head out and start harvesting... I do that 'til I'm full or bored of that (I never afk harvest; always watching my back, etc)... Done with that.. I go back to town, bank my yield and decide what I feel like doing next... and so on. At some point during all this, I may find myself in a PvP encounter, so I'm always wary for any potential attackers.
The whole time I'm doing this, I'm following regional chat, talking with a couple people I know in /tell, etc.. This also helps the time go by and what I'm doing becomes more of a "background activity" I'm doing while having converations with others...
By the time I'm through several activitiess, several hours has gone by and I'm probably thinking "good time for a break to do something else for a bit". I get myself back in town and log out.. having played several hours, there's not a period of time where I wasn't doing something that wasn't exactly what I felt like doing at that moment.
In a nutshell: I don't grind in MMOs. I play MMOs.
I also don't perceive DF as "A FFA PvP MMO" and that's it". I see it as a "Sandbox-like MMORPG with FFA PvP". There are a number of things to do in the game, PvP being among them.
Is it going to take me longer to become "competitive with vets"? Probably. Do I care? No. Because end-game PvP is only *part* of the game to me.. not the entirety of it. If it takes me several months to get there, then fine. As long as I'm enjoying myself along the way, I have no problem with that.
Now, there are some in these forums who may say "you're playing the game wrong. You're supposed to be grinding up your skills so you can PvP, because that's what the game is all about. The optimum way to do that is afk macro". I know this because it's already been said to me before. I disagree. A MMORPG is "all about" anything and everything it offers. DF offers PvE content, it offers PvP content. It's "all about" whatever the individual wishes to get out of it.
There is no one "Right Way" to play a MMORPG - though I know that's a popular mentality in all MMOs. I was told all the time in FFXI how I was "supposed to be playing"; what jobs I was "supposed to be leveling", what gear I was "supposed to be farming for", etc. etc. Screw that. The only thing I'm "supposed to be doing" is whatever I find enjoyable for my time and my money.
And for those who insist that DF is "all about PvP and that's it" in order to support their notion that I'm "playing the game wrong"... Do some research on the game. Aventurine disagrees with you and has since before the game launched. PvE is very much an important part of the game to them, and always has been. Just look at some of what they've added.. new mobs (PvE), lowbie dungeons (PvE), they're adding more lore and quests to the game (PvE).. There's crafting (PvE), harvesting (PvE)... raid bosses (PvE)... and on and on. Anytime you're in the game, you're surrounded by PvE content. I honestly don't know how anyone could honestly say "it's all about PvP" in light of that.
I also find it rather funny that some people will argue "DF is all about PvP! None of that carebear PvE crap!"... and then you'll see a group of the same people talking about how they went out and fought the Kraken, or one of the dragons. Last I checked, raid bosses, which I take those two mobs to be, was very much PvE activity... Just sayin'.
The game may be all about PvP to you ("you" in general), but it's certainly not so to its developers, nor has it ever been. There's ample indication of that fact both in-game and on the website. On that note, though I can understand why it's frustrating to not be able to compete with vets quickly, when that's all you're interested in doing. Unfortunately for some, DF doesn't cater exclusively to that playstyle... and so, some PvE and some grinding (if that's how you choose to play it) will be necessary.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think most people really don't care. The problem isn't with the AFK macro'ers, the problem is with a system that forces so many people to AFK macro. Last night I spent half an hour manually practicing Spell Chanting. Zzzzzzzz. I don't AFK macro - yet - but now I understand why it's done.
I think most people really don't care. The problem isn't with the AFK macro'ers, the problem is with a system that forces so many people to AFK macro. Last night I spent half an hour manually practicing Spell Chanting. Zzzzzzzz. I don't AFK macro - yet - but now I understand why it's done.
No one is ever "forced" to afk macro. Ever.
They're not even "forced" to continue playing the game if they find it to be that boring.
Like was said by someone else, if you're finding a game to be so unenjoyable that cheating (afk macroing) seems like a viable option, perhaps you should ask yourself why you're still playing at all.
People choose to macro because they feel they're not able to progress as quickly as they'd like by actually playing. And, of course, because people these days seldom ever accept accountability for what they do, they instead look for something else to blame it on.
Hence.. "I choose to AFK macro... because the game forces me to" is the common argument.
Frankly, I couldn't care less if people choose to cheat by making the game play itself while they're not there. But at least be honest and acknowledge it for what it is.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
People choose to macro because they feel they're not able to progress as quickly as they'd like by actually playing. And, of course, because people these days seldom ever accept accountability for what they do, they instead look for something else to blame it on.
Progression is so slow that without AFK macro'ing a new player will never be competitive.
Progression is so slow that without AFK macro'ing a new player will never be competitive.
Nonsense.
This has been debated and debunked many times before, going back months now.
Players with far less played-time in-game have already shared stories of how they contributed to a siege, how they PvP'd and won against more "advanced" players, etc...
In my own 2 week trial before I decided to sub... I ran into *multiple* instances of PvP. Right outside a starting city, a dwarf attacked me... I attacked back... we fought... It was PvP. I was on my way to a hunting spot... someone saw me and attacked... I fought back.. it was PvP... I was on my way to my clan's city, someone attacked me along the way... I fought back, they won.. it was PvP... I was hunting for a quest one day, someone kept trying to snipe my mobs as I was about to kill them... I ran up and attacked them and chased them off. It was PvP... and on and on... You do not need to "afk macro" in order to be viable in PvP in DF.
Of course, I can see perfectly well what the real problem is...
People want to start today and be "competitive against vets who have played far longer" within a month. They can't, so they claim "the grind is too much and so the game forces me to afk macro".
All I'll say is, in my opinion, if all someone can get out of DF is afk macroing to get to "high level PvP" to find enjoyment... they have a very limited imagination.
And, no, I'm not a veteran player who's only against it because "I don't want more competition". I'm a new player who abhores cheating on principle alone, and don't buy into any of the crap cheaters conjure up trying to defend or spin it as something it isn't.
I also don't buy into the mentality that "not liking something" is a valid reason to bypass it by cheating.
The game doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. You choose to buy the game. You choose to pay a sub. You choose to log in. You choose to play. You choose to cheat. Period.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You do not need to "afk macro" in order to be viable in PvP in DF.
Agreed completely. This is a fact, not an opinion.
Of course, I can see perfectly well what the real problem is...
People want to start today and be "competitive against vets who have played far longer" within a month. They can't, so they claim "the grind is too much and so the game forces me to afk macro".
One hundred percent correct, I just addressed this in another thread earlier.
All I'll say is, in my opinion, if all someone can get out of DF is afk macroing to get to "high level PvP" to find enjoyment... they have a very limited imagination.
Indeed my friend, there is so much to the game that it is a veritable bonanza of choice. It rests entirely on the specific player to actually pick up a bucket and spade and begin playing with the "sand in the box" though.
Progression is so slow that without AFK macro'ing a new player will never be competitive.
False.
I rerolled a new character recently, I'll post my one month stats and skills at the end of Oct, I don't afk macro (never have and never will) and I focus on specific areas of training.
See, I guess I just approach the game (or any MMO really) from a completely different mindset.
I mean I can *see* where it might feel like a grind to some people, and become obnoxious... I just don't experience it that way due to the way I play...I guess. Not saying it's "better" or "worse"... just maybe a "cause and effect" scenario.
As a bit of a preface, I should've clarified in my reply, but I played the game from Dec. 6th 2009 until somewhere in mid-Jan. 2010, as well as a brief stint in early February after some buddies convinced me to give it one last go. That frame of reference is important due to the fact that I'm sure much has changed since then, and it should also give some clue as to the overall state of the game during that period. AFK macroing/swimming, bloodwalls, and the like were the 'norm' at that point and little to no punishment for those activities was enforced. Even loot macros and the like were fairly common for people to use on a regular basis with impudence. The population was relatively healthy at that time; enough that fights would find you pretty regularly, with some fairly large numbers as well. No changes had been made to reduce the curve of HP gain and honestly, in spite of a minor boost over the launch gain rate for skills, the gains were basically equal to that of launch. Of course, this was left out of my snarky little reply earlier because it was just that - a late night post right before bed and a quick little stab at some sarcastic humor.
I log in and decide what I feel like doing at that moment. Checking out my character's stats, or perhaps sorting through my bank to see what I have on hand, I find I have a surplus of materials I gathered on a previous session. Perfect.. I'll start off by training up my crafting skills... earn some skill-ups, get rid of the surplus materials and have some gear to either hold on to, sell off or give to newer players who perhaps don't have anything decent yet.
That's done... okay what next... Well, I'd like to work on my dagger skills some more. Okay, so I gear up, get the daggers out and head out to hunt some mobs, picking up some loot along the way to sell or store when I get back.. I do that as long as it remains entertaining/enjoyable to me. When it starts feeling boring (aka "like a grind") about an hour or so later, maybe more, maybe less - depending on my mood - I stop and head back to town. Now what to do... Well, since I crafted up all my supplies, I suppose I could do well to replace what I've used.. So, I get myself ready head out and start harvesting... I do that 'til I'm full or bored of that (I never afk harvest; always watching my back, etc)... Done with that.. I go back to town, bank my yield and decide what I feel like doing next... and so on. At some point during all this, I may find myself in a PvP encounter, so I'm always wary for any potential attackers.
The whole time I'm doing this, I'm following regional chat, talking with a couple people I know in /tell, etc.. This also helps the time go by and what I'm doing becomes more of a "background activity" I'm doing while having converations with others...
By the time I'm through several activitiess, several hours has gone by and I'm probably thinking "good time for a break to do something else for a bit". I get myself back in town and log out.. having played several hours, there's not a period of time where I wasn't doing something that wasn't exactly what I felt like doing at that moment.
In a nutshell: I don't grind in MMOs. I play MMOs.
Personally, I joined the game by myself and rolled as a Mirdain. My first hours in the game were extremely confusing, a bit frustrating, but quite engrossing as I began adjusting to the graphics. Learning how not to get decimated by a pack of goblins near my Mirdain starter city was quite challenging. I mean, I've never gotten wrecked so hard as a new player in any other game. By the end of that first day, I'd figured out how to use the terrain to draw my enemies closer, and effectively knock down an entire camp of goblins on my own. I was very pleased about the whole thing because I hadn't overcome the challenge by merely out-leveling. It was very satisfying.
My prior paragraph could lead into a novel-length tale of my 6 or so weeks total in Darkfall. To elaborate would only serve to illustrate my mindset while playing, and how it morphed from the above into a more driven style of play that lead to my eventual use of macros, some bloodwalling, and AFK swimming (tone of a happy person diving into the depths of a drug-addicted underworld not intended). The thing is, I went into the game with a very, very similar mindset that it seems you now carry, and ended up on the other side by the very nature of the game. When I realized exactly what I was doing, and how my playstyle had deviated so much from where I started is when I decided to stop playing. Again - to elaborate would require quite the long post on a topic that has been covered many times, including by myself. A good topic on the subject can be read here and my feelings on the subject are covered quite well throughout that topic. Another post of my own where I possibly got a little carried away even further describes where and why the game turns sour. If you'd like to delve even further into some decent posts on the game, start with my post history at page 12 or so.
I also don't perceive DF as "A FFA PvP MMO" and that's it". I see it as a "Sandbox-like MMORPG with FFA PvP". There are a number of things to do in the game, PvP being among them.
I can completely understand how, these days, the game is no longer labeled as an "FFA PvP MMO" but more a "Sandbox-like MMORPG with FFA PvP". Downplaying the PVP by essentially calling it a side-dish is the only logical step in a game that has so thoroughly lost its focus as well as the playerbase to sustain it. The trouble there is, the veterans who've carried on the traditions of the game and passed it down to newcomers have still managed to maintain (I'm assuming) some degree of this mentality, and they're not really wrong for doing so. The very fact that a new player can - and would - join the game for its sand-boxy nature and PVE with little more than PVP tossed in on the side is just an indicator of how far the game has gone (down or uphill, depending on your perspective). Still, once that carrot-on-a-stick slowly fades and disappears as you near max stats, have high-level crafting, and masteries galore, the content that once existed will no longer have meaning without PVP. Just a thought.
Is it going to take me longer to become "competitive with vets"? Probably. Do I care? No. Because end-game PvP is only *part* of the game to me.. not the entirety of it. If it takes me several months to get there, then fine. As long as I'm enjoying myself along the way, I have no problem with that.
Now, there are some in these forums who may say "you're playing the game wrong. You're supposed to be grinding up your skills so you can PvP, because that's what the game is all about. The optimum way to do that is afk macro". I know this because it's already been said to me before. I disagree. A MMORPG is "all about" anything and everything it offers. DF offers PvE content, it offers PvP content. It's "all about" whatever the individual wishes to get out of it.
Mostly covered in my last bit, I'll only add that the PVP was never intended to be avoided. There should never be much of a safe-haven in Darkfall to merely enjoy the 'wonderful' PVE aspects of the game, especially on such a large scale as it'd seem you're presenting.
There is no one "Right Way" to play a MMORPG - though I know that's a popular mentality in all MMOs. I was told all the time in FFXI how I was "supposed to be playing"; what jobs I was "supposed to be leveling", what gear I was "supposed to be farming for", etc. etc. Screw that. The only thing I'm "supposed to be doing" is whatever I find enjoyable for my time and my money.
The above is the one part of this post I wholeheartedly agree with. I've always strived to maintain this type of view when playing any game, and especially MMO's. However, you still play within a given MMO's rules and world with their player populations. It's those things that dictate to some degree how you can or can't play, as well as how you will or won't. As I stated earlier - Darkfall wasn't intended to be a PVE game with a PVP-optional side-feature and that that's an option now illustrates a major part of the issues the game still has (IMO, of course).
And for those who insist that DF is "all about PvP and that's it" in order to support their notion that I'm "playing the game wrong"... Do some research on the game. Aventurine disagrees with you and has since before the game launched. PvE is very much an important part of the game to them, and always has been. Just look at some of what they've added.. new mobs (PvE), lowbie dungeons (PvE), they're adding more lore and quests to the game (PvE).. There's crafting (PvE), harvesting (PvE)... raid bosses (PvE)... and on and on. Anytime you're in the game, you're surrounded by PvE content. I honestly don't know how anyone could honestly say "it's all about PvP" in light of that.
I also find it rather funny that some people will argue "DF is all about PvP! None of that carebear PvE crap!"... and then you'll see a group of the same people talking about how they went out and fought the Kraken, or one of the dragons. Last I checked, raid bosses, which I take those two mobs to be, was very much PvE activity... Just sayin'.
The game may be all about PvP to you ("you" in general), but it's certainly not so to its developers, nor has it ever been. There's ample indication of that fact both in-game and on the website. On that note, though I can understand why it's frustrating to not be able to compete with vets quickly, when that's all you're interested in doing. Unfortunately for some, DF doesn't cater exclusively to that playstyle... and so, some PvE and some grinding (if that's how you choose to play it) will be necessary.
I'm not here to say the game is "all about PVP, all the time!". In fact, far from it. Some of my best times in Darkfall included some of my time in the NEW clan when a contributor to that group would come to town, announce in alliance chat that he was there, and hand out "ready bags" containing armor and reagents then tell everyone to suit up and follow him. We'd then proceed to mount up in a massive group and head to the ocean where he'd spawn his massive ship (the largest of which I saw was a Ship-of-the-line) and we'd head out to hunt a Kraken. Getting the chance to steer a ship around while 20-30 guys arch and fire cannons on a Kraken was quite the experience. Still, it'd have been all the more thrilling had we been able to encounter some enemy ships in some highly-contested waters where a massive ship vs. ship (or even ship v ship v ship) battle had ensued. Regardless, the PVE in the game has some fun times to be sure. The danger aspect of it, however, is what many love/loved Darkfall for. That danger disappears as the population dwindles and a PVE focus becomes the norm and the challenge of PVE eventually fades as well.
Originally posted by WSIMike
No one is ever "forced" to afk macro. Ever.
They're not even "forced" to continue playing the game if they find it to be that boring.
Like was said by someone else, if you're finding a game to be so unenjoyable that cheating (afk macroing) seems like a viable option, perhaps you should ask yourself why you're still playing at all.
People choose to macro because they feel they're not able to progress as quickly as they'd like by actually playing. And, of course, because people these days seldom ever accept accountability for what they do, they instead look for something else to blame it on.
Hence.. "I choose to AFK macro... because the game forces me to" is the common argument.
Frankly, I couldn't care less if people choose to cheat by making the game play itself while they're not there. But at least be honest and acknowledge it for what it is.
I really agree with most of what you have to say, Mike. I always enjoy your posts and your views, whether or not I agree with them. However, in this case I believe that you're speaking from a lack of experience. Certainly no one is "forced" to do anything, especially cheat, and that's exactly what AFK skillups and macroing are in Darkfall. Still, when the overwhelming majority of the players are of a mindset that's been passed down to them by the game's oldest players that such things are the accepted norm, it's a line that's very easily crossed in this game. It's even worse when, at the beginning of the game, the devs themselves openly allowed such things and took no steps against them initially. That, of course, lead to the mentality that still exists today - that it's "just part of the game".
It's definitely easy to ignore others' views on the subject from the outside looking in and call it what it is, but without understanding where that view comes from, you should hold your judgement. Frankly, I'd love to see where you stand in a month's time after getting further into the game and learning more about it (especially after joining several clans and meeting older players). I don't mean that in a derogatory or presumptuous nature, but more that I'd sincerely like to see where your view and how it might have changed with more experience will stand. Where you stand right now is in a place of principle, but the subject at hand is much deeper than that.
Personally, I'm still waiting to see DF2010 implemented before I give Darkfall another go, but as I stated in my original reply; I'd really love to see a fresh server with strict enforcement of the rules now in place against AFK gains and macros. Between that, and I'd assume some fixes to certain exploits that were once common, it'd be much funner game if everyone had the opportunity to start fresh and on much more equal terms, and I'd bet that many would return for such an experience.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
"why the hell are you still playing something you're obviously not enjoying?"
Errrm, we don`t.
Someone on forumfall had translated from greek what Tasos had said in an interview recently. Tasos said they had sold 100000 copies of Darkfall, and they had regained 50% of the cost of making this game. Now taste that number you grinder and slayer of NPCs, 100000 copys sold.
If this is true, we have lost 97000 players and are now left with 3000. Those 3% we have left are diveded 50-50 on elite pvpers and pveers.So when you claim this game is for players like you, remember you are just 1.5% of the original playerbase. High level players like myself would love to have those 97000 back. You and your 1.5 % group of NPC killers could go back to Linage2, SWG or whatever Korean grind you came from.
Imagine what those 97000 tell their friends about Darkfall, and you got an idea why we failed. Some of us high level players still hang around with a hope that AV will reduce the grind and make DF the great PVP mmo it is. We know DF is a great game if the players have competitive chars, because we have seen it the first months of the game.
Ohh and yes, I have killed 25000 NPCs, and I wouldn`t let any of my friends go through that torture. So I tell them to stay away from this game.....for now.
See, I guess I just approach the game (or any MMO really) from a completely different mindset.
I mean I can *see* where it might feel like a grind to some people, and become obnoxious... I just don't experience it that way due to the way I play...I guess. Not saying it's "better" or "worse"... just maybe a "cause and effect" scenario.
As a bit of a preface, I should've clarified in my reply, but I played the game from Dec. 6th 2009 until somewhere in mid-Jan. 2010, as well as a brief stint in early February after some buddies convinced me to give it one last go. That frame of reference is important due to the fact that I'm sure much has changed since then, and it should also give some clue as to the overall state of the game during that period. AFK macroing/swimming, bloodwalls, and the like were the 'norm' at that point and little to no punishment for those activities was enforced. Even loot macros and the like were fairly common for people to use on a regular basis with impudence. The population was relatively healthy at that time; enough that fights would find you pretty regularly, with some fairly large numbers as well. No changes had been made to reduce the curve of HP gain and honestly, in spite of a minor boost over the launch gain rate for skills, the gains were basically equal to that of launch. Of course, this was left out of my snarky little reply earlier because it was just that - a late night post right before bed and a quick little stab at some sarcastic humor.
There's almost something of a "peer pressure", "do it because everyone else is too", element in your above paragraph, if I'm understanding it correctly; though maybe I didn't.
How many people chose to hack, cheat or whatever at any given time in the game's history means absolutely zilch to me. I'm not one to "go with the pack" or do something "because it's what everyone else is doing". If I look around and see a large number of people bloodwalling, afk swimming, etc.. it's not going to leave me with the impression that "maybe that's something I should be doing". It leaves me with the impression of "what a waste... paying to play a game and then cheating your way through it". Meanwhile, I continue on playing it as I choose to.
In a nutshell: I don't grind in MMOs. I play MMOs.
Personally, I joined the game by myself and rolled as a Mirdain. My first hours in the game were extremely confusing, a bit frustrating, but quite engrossing as I began adjusting to the graphics. Learning how not to get decimated by a pack of goblins near my Mirdain starter city was quite challenging. I mean, I've never gotten wrecked so hard as a new player in any other game. By the end of that first day, I'd figured out how to use the terrain to draw my enemies closer, and effectively knock down an entire camp of goblins on my own. I was very pleased about the whole thing because I hadn't overcome the challenge by merely out-leveling. It was very satisfying.
My prior paragraph could lead into a novel-length tale of my 6 or so weeks total in Darkfall. To elaborate would only serve to illustrate my mindset while playing, and how it morphed from the above into a more driven style of play that lead to my eventual use of macros, some bloodwalling, and AFK swimming (tone of a happy person diving into the depths of a drug-addicted underworld not intended). The thing is, I went into the game with a very, very similar mindset that it seems you now carry, and ended up on the other side by the very nature of the game. When I realized exactly what I was doing, and how my playstyle had deviated so much from where I started is when I decided to stop playing. Again - to elaborate would require quite the long post on a topic that has been covered many times, including by myself. A good topic on the subject can be read here and my feelings on the subject are covered quite well throughout that topic. Another post of my own where I possibly got a little carried away even further describes where and why the game turns sour. If you'd like to delve even further into some decent posts on the game, start with my post history at page 12 or so.
Just to be clear, are you implying because that's what happened to you, that the same will happen to me, given enough time? If so, I would politely and sincerely request that you not jump to that conclusion.
I played Lineage 2 back in its early days - easily the worst grind you can imagine... killing 3 mobs to get .01% xp, and you can lose a day's worth of xp if you die and no one's around to raise you with a higher level raise spell. That grind rate, and that death penalty alone drove many people from the game, and made them insist - just like they do now in DF - that the only way to play and "be competitive" (sound familiar?) in L2 was to bot up your character and/or RMT. They argued every bit as strongly and persistently as I've seen anyone argue for DF.
As in this game, in L2 it didn't phase me. I played the game the way I wanted to. I never botted. I never bought gold or items or anything to do with RMT. I never cheated. I prefer working for and earning my progress, not have it done for me while I'm not even at the computer. I have zero respect or appreciation for someone who brags about their character when at least 50% of its progress has been made while they were afk sleeping or at work.
I was very cognizant of the fact that people were botting in-game fairly regularly. I was very aware that buying gold (or adena as it's called in L2) was commonplace. Every person doing so said the same thing: "the only way to be competitive in L2 is to bot yourself up because it's impossible to play the game otherwise". I said "Bullshit. No you don't". And, just like here, people presented the challenge of, "Well we'll see what you're saying in a few months time and you hit the real grind". 3 years into playing the game, my character into the upper 70s (well after the "real grind" hit), I still had people saying the same thing to me - "you have to bot and/or RMT if you want to be competitive", and I still said "Bullshit. No you don't".
The difference is in how I approach the games. Where others seem to be single-mindedly focused on nothing but "grinding levels as fast as possible", I mix it up between different activities and keep myself occupied and entertained. I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere. There is no "real game" I'm racing to reach, because for me the real game starts the moment I step foot in the game world.
It's really as simple as that.
Again, I play a game on my own terms, for my own enjoyment. I will never get to a point where I feel cheating - in any form - is warranted or justified. If I get to the point where I feel I'd have to hack or macro to "make the game tolerable", I un-sub.
That said... When I say I don't grind in a MMO, I play them. I mean that in the most literal, absolute sense. Hacking, macroing, RMT'ing... anything along those lines is an absolute no-go for me. The moment a game feels like a grind to me - that is, something I'm not enjoying - I say "well, it's been fun", and I'm gone.
I can completely understand how, these days, the game is no longer labeled as an "FFA PvP MMO" but more a "Sandbox-like MMORPG with FFA PvP". Downplaying the PVP by essentially calling it a side-dish is the only logical step in a game that has so thoroughly lost its focus as well as the playerbase to sustain it. The trouble there is, the veterans who've carried on the traditions of the game and passed it down to newcomers have still managed to maintain (I'm assuming) some degree of this mentality, and they're not really wrong for doing so. The very fact that a new player can - and would - join the game for its sand-boxy nature and PVE with little more than PVP tossed in on the side is just an indicator of how far the game has gone (down or uphill, depending on your perspective). Still, once that carrot-on-a-stick slowly fades and disappears as you near max stats, have high-level crafting, and masteries galore, the content that once existed will no longer have meaning without PVP. Just a thought.
I can't speak to how others perceive or may perceive DF. I see Darkfall as a sandbox MMORPG that offers a lot of different forms of content... in a world where you can freely attack other players. It's an aspect of the game's setting... It's not *the* game itself, which is definitely how some around here (not necessarily you) characterize it repeatedly.
Mostly covered in my last bit, I'll only add that the PVP was never intended to be avoided. There should never be much of a safe-haven in Darkfall to merely enjoy the 'wonderful' PVE aspects of the game, especially on such a large scale as it'd seem you're presenting.
I don't believe it's ever to be avoided either. It's an ever-present danger in the world and I'm fully aware of it, anywhere I go, anything I'm doing. I'm not 'avoiding' it by doing PvE content. I'm playing the game by doing PvE content. The fact that I can be attacked at any time, no matter what I'm doing, is actually what makes the game that much more interesting to me.
I never meant to characterize it as saying PvP is somehow a "side activity". I meant to characterize it as "it's part of a larger game, not the entire game in itself". That was more a response to the many remarks I've seen people make where they claim "Darkfall is all about PvP".
Though I know there are some who would argue otherwise, I don't believe PvE and PvP are mutually exclusive. They can both very well co-exist in the same game. Being open to attack by another player while doing PvE content, again, simply makes it that much more interesting to me. The presence of open PvP enhances the PvE experience in my opinion.
There is no one "Right Way" to play a MMORPG - though I know that's a popular mentality in all MMOs. I was told all the time in FFXI how I was "supposed to be playing"; what jobs I was "supposed to be leveling", what gear I was "supposed to be farming for", etc. etc. Screw that. The only thing I'm "supposed to be doing" is whatever I find enjoyable for my time and my money.
The above is the one part of this post I wholeheartedly agree with. I've always strived to maintain this type of view when playing any game, and especially MMO's. However, you still play within a given MMO's rules and world with their player populations. It's those things that dictate to some degree how you can or can't play, as well as how you will or won't. As I stated earlier - Darkfall wasn't intended to be a PVE game with a PVP-optional side-feature and that that's an option now illustrates a major part of the issues the game still has (IMO, of course).
I really agree with most of what you have to say, Mike. I always enjoy your posts and your views, whether or not I agree with them. However, in this case I believe that you're speaking from a lack of experience. Certainly no one is "forced" to do anything, especially cheat, and that's exactly what AFK skillups and macroing are in Darkfall. Still, when the overwhelming majority of the players are of a mindset that's been passed down to them by the game's oldest players that such things are the accepted norm, it's a line that's very easily crossed in this game. It's even worse when, at the beginning of the game, the devs themselves openly allowed such things and took no steps against them initially. That, of course, lead to the mentality that still exists today - that it's "just part of the game".
It's definitely easy to ignore others' views on the subject from the outside looking in and call it what it is, but without understanding where that view comes from, you should hold your judgement. Frankly, I'd love to see where you stand in a month's time after getting further into the game and learning more about it (especially after joining several clans and meeting older players). I don't mean that in a derogatory or presumptuous nature, but more that I'd sincerely like to see where your view and how it might have changed with more experience will stand. Where you stand right now is in a place of principle, but the subject at hand is much deeper than that.
My judgment is it's never justifiable to cheat in a game. It's cheating.
I don't care "where it comes from". I have a pretty good idea that I *do* know where it comes from, because DF is not the first time I've seen all the same arguments. I've seen the same arguments for various other MMOs - both PvP and PvE. There are people for whom a MMO will never allow them to progress as quickly as they want to, and so they'll get around it by macroing/botting/hacking... and then justify it by saying "well I wouldn't have to if the game didn't have such a bad grind". The popular statement for DF is "the game forces you to". At the end of the day, it's the same argument.
Again... when I get to that point where a game feels *that* unbearable... I see it as a reason to move on... not cheat. Cheating in a game completely undermines the point of playing in the first place.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
As a bit of a preface, I should've clarified in my reply, but I played the game from Dec. 6th 2009 until somewhere in mid-Jan. 2010, as well as a brief stint in early February after some buddies convinced me to give it one last go. That frame of reference is important due to the fact that I'm sure much has changed since then, and it should also give some clue as to the overall state of the game during that period. AFK macroing/swimming, bloodwalls, and the like were the 'norm' at that point and little to no punishment for those activities was enforced. Even loot macros and the like were fairly common for people to use on a regular basis with impudence. The population was relatively healthy at that time; enough that fights would find you pretty regularly, with some fairly large numbers as well. No changes had been made to reduce the curve of HP gain and honestly, in spite of a minor boost over the launch gain rate for skills, the gains were basically equal to that of launch. Of course, this was left out of my snarky little reply earlier because it was just that - a late night post right before bed and a quick little stab at some sarcastic humor.
There's almost something of a "peer pressure", "do it because everyone else is too", element in your above paragraph, if I'm understanding it correctly; though maybe I didn't. How many people chose to hack, cheat or whatever at any given time in the game's history means absolutely zilch to me. I'm not one to "go with the pack" or do something "because it's what everyone else is doing". If I look around and see a large number of people bloodwalling, afk swimming, etc.. it's not going to leave me with the impression that "maybe that's something I should be doing". It leaves me with the impression of "what a waste... paying to play a game and then cheating your way through it". Meanwhile, I continue on playing it as I choose to.
It's less a case of "peer pressure" or "doing it because everyone else does it", but more a case of "this is the way the game is played by the majority, so clearly the players and the devs allow it to exist and therefore it's not really perceived as cheating, so don't let that stop you from taking part as well!"
As I stated in the full text of my reply; I quit when I realized where I'd gotten during my time playing. Understand, I don't cheat in games - single-player or otherwise - and have always taken a very strong stance against it. The point at which I decided to join the bloodwallers and AFK macroers was during the very last week (maybe week and a half) of my time in the game, at which point I'd already decided I no longer cared about playing. I merely decided "screw it; I'm going to quit either way, but let me see how this works". That doesn't excuse its peccability at all, but hopefully clarifies why I ended up at that point.
Originally posted by WSIMike
In a nutshell: I don't grind in MMOs. I play MMOs.
Personally, I joined the game by myself and rolled as a Mirdain. My first hours in the game were extremely confusing, a bit frustrating, but quite engrossing as I began adjusting to the graphics. Learning how not to get decimated by a pack of goblins near my Mirdain starter city was quite challenging. I mean, I've never gotten wrecked so hard as a new player in any other game. By the end of that first day, I'd figured out how to use the terrain to draw my enemies closer, and effectively knock down an entire camp of goblins on my own. I was very pleased about the whole thing because I hadn't overcome the challenge by merely out-leveling. It was very satisfying.
My prior paragraph could lead into a novel-length tale of my 6 or so weeks total in Darkfall. To elaborate would only serve to illustrate my mindset while playing, and how it morphed from the above into a more driven style of play that lead to my eventual use of macros, some bloodwalling, and AFK swimming (tone of a happy person diving into the depths of a drug-addicted underworld not intended). The thing is, I went into the game with a very, very similar mindset that it seems you now carry, and ended up on the other side by the very nature of the game. When I realized exactly what I was doing, and how my playstyle had deviated so much from where I started is when I decided to stop playing. Again - to elaborate would require quite the long post on a topic that has been covered many times, including by myself. A good topic on the subject can be read here and my feelings on the subject are covered quite well throughout that topic. Another post of my own where I possibly got a little carried away even further describes where and why the game turns sour. If you'd like to delve even further into some decent posts on the game, start with my post history at page 12 or so.
Just to be clear, are you implying because that's what happened to you, that the same will happen to me, given enough time? If so, I would politely and sincerely request that you not jump to that conclusion.
I'm absolutely not implying that. I made it clear that I was in no way trying to be presumptuous towards your experience. I was merely trying to sum up the whole of my experience and where I ended up as succinctly as possible. I'd hoped, too, that you would've taken the time to read through some of those threads and specific posts to gain an even clearer picture of my position.
I played Lineage 2 back in its early days - easily the worst grind you can imagine... killing 3 mobs to get .01% xp, and you can lose a day's worth of xp if you die and no one's around to raise you with a higher level raise spell. That grind rate, and that death penalty alone drove many people from the game, and made them insist - just like they do now in DF - that the only way to play and "be competitive" (sound familiar?) in L2 was to bot up your character and/or RMT. They argued every bit as strongly and persistently as I've seen anyone argue for DF.
Well, bringing RMT into the picture opens up a whole new can of worms. I mean, in my position I no longer cared about the game or continuing to play at the point I even bothered to AFK macro/bloodwall. There's no way I'd have spent real money on the game, even if it'd have guaranteed my future enjoyment of it. As for botting, I suppose it's a similar enough thing. Truthfully, though, there is no defense for cheating. Excuses are excuses. Reasons, however, are reasons, and that's all I attempted to give in my earlier reply. Understand the motivations and then you can discern how it may apply to you.
As in this game, in L2 it didn't phase me. I played the game the way I wanted to. I never botted. I never bought gold or items or anything to do with RMT. I never cheated. I prefer working for and earning my progress, not have it done for me while I'm not even at the computer. I have zero respect or appreciation for someone who brags about their character when at least 50% of its progress has been made while they were afk sleeping or at work.
The trouble with continuing the comparison of L2 to Darkfall is that you're comparing apples to pears. I've never played L2 and won't presume to know a thing about it. What I do know is that in Darkfall, progression is the vast majority of the game's content. In fact - short of PVP - it is the game's content. I stated earlier that it doesn't mean it can't and won't be fun, but most everything you can do will contribute to your continued progression of stats, skills, or professions with the rest relating to PVP. It's kind of the epitome of shallow. Where L2 fits into that comparison would interest me.
I was very cognizant of the fact that people were botting in-game fairly regularly. I was very aware that buying gold (or adena as it's called in L2) was commonplace. Every person doing so said the same thing: "the only way to be competitive in L2 is to bot yourself up because it's impossible to play the game otherwise". I said "Bullshit. No you don't". And, just like here, people presented the challenge of, "Well we'll see what you're saying in a few months time and you hit the real grind". 3 years into playing the game, my character into the upper 70s (well after the "real grind" hit), I still had people saying the same thing to me - "you have to bot and/or RMT if you want to be competitive", and I still said "Bullshit. No you don't".
The difference is in how I approach the games. Where others seem to be single-mindedly focused on nothing but "grinding levels as fast as possible", I mix it up between different activities and keep myself occupied and entertained. I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere. There is no "real game" I'm racing to reach, because for me the real game starts the moment I step foot in the game world.
It's really as simple as that.
Again, I play a game on my own terms, for my own enjoyment. I will never get to a point where I feel cheating - in any form - is warranted or justified. If I get to the point where I feel I'd have to hack or macro to "make the game tolerable", I un-sub.
That said... When I say I don't grind in a MMO, I play them. I mean that in the most literal, absolute sense. Hacking, macroing, RMT'ing... anything along those lines is an absolute no-go for me. The moment a game feels like a grind to me - that is, something I'm not enjoying - I say "well, it's been fun", and I'm gone.
Like I stated earlier, I really do agree with you on the entire sentiment of "just playing". Darkfall became unenjoyable for me, and in a final attempt to both understand and see first-hand why people were doing the AFK grind, I joined in. For that very reason, I quit the game.
Frankly, I couldn't agree more with the "I don't grind in a MMO, I play them" statement. I've always been the same way, namely in FFXI and RF Online I can absolutely relate. In FFXI, most people called grouping up and camping for exp a grind. I loved it, and almost always had a great time with it. The few times I didn't, I logged out. In RFO I put in some pretty extreme work on my PTs (back at the original CM release; before cash shop) which many, many called a grind. Personally, I loved grabbing a cup of hot coffee and settling in with some music and playing whack-a-mole for hours. Seriously. I was one of a very few who did so, though. The point is, I've never felt compelled to cheat or manipulate a system in any way to get ahead. I've always played my characters legitimately to accomplish what I have through my years of gaming. Darkfall is literally the only exception to this.
Of course, all of the above is largely irrelevant because it merely pertains to you, me, and my attempt to clarify a misunderstood position. A much better way to put it would be:
Originally posted by Hotjazz
Someone on forumfall had translated from greek what Tasos had said in an interview recently. Tasos said they had sold 100000 copies of Darkfall, and they had regained 50% of the cost of making this game.
If this is true, we have lost 97000 players and are now left with 3000. Those 3% we have left are diveded 50-50 on elite pvpers and pveers.So when you claim this game is for players like you, remember you are just 1.5% of the original playerbase. High level players like myself would love to have those 97000 back.
Imagine what those 97000 tell their friends about Darkfall, and you got an idea why we failed. Some of us high level players still hang around with a hope that AV will reduce the grind and make DF the great PVP mmo it is. We know DF is a great game if the players have competitive chars, because we have seen it the first months of the game.
The fact is, it doesn't matter what my experience with the game was like. It doesn't matter what yours will be. What matters is what the vast majority of players have experienced and what they will that's at the heart of this thread. Very clearly, as illustrated above, a measly "3%" is all that remains of 100,000 copies sold worldwide. That means that 97% of folks decided that the grind was too much, they were turned off by the blatant and rampant cheating, they couldn't handle the FFA PVP nature of the game, or any other of a plethora of reasons to ditch the game. Ignore my epxerience entirely, I don't care. Take the blinders off, though, and look at the history of this game and you'll realize that the vastmajority of people who stuck with it for any significant time ended up gaining skills or stats through any of a myriad of processes while AFK. Read the official forums. Read the forums here. You'll probably need to go back to early this year and all of last, but you'll see what I mean, but the entire AFK thing has been a widespread problem from day 1, and not just an isolated issue.
Don't misunderstand me - I believe you probably recognize the issue and its scale. What you've yet to realize is how it arrived there and why. I'm trying to clarify the why for you, since by your entire response to me you simply must not, because neither of us really matter in the scope of it all. The topic is "Why does anyone care about AFK macroing?" and in spite of its facetious nature, my very first reply definitely covered a few of the reasons. The rest is a much deeper subject to go into, and - as I said earlier - has been hashed out quite a few times. That's exactly why I gave links to past discussions; I don't intend to beat that dead horse (dead to me, anyway) any further and my experiences only become less valid with time. I do hope that clears things up for you, though.
P.S. If you the Dolphins, this post must be for you... jeez.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
The fact is, it doesn't matter what my experience with the game was like. It doesn't matter what yours will be. What matters is what the vast majority of players have experienced and what they will that's at the heart of this thread. Very clearly, as illustrated above, a measly "3%" is all that remains of 100,000 copies sold worldwide. That means that 97% of folks decided that the grind was too much, they were turned off by the blatant and rampant cheating, they couldn't handle the FFA PVP nature of the game, or any other of a plethora of reasons to ditch the game. Ignore my epxerience entirely, I don't care. Take the blinders off, though, and look at the history of this game and you'll realize that the vastmajority of people who stuck with it for any significant time ended up gaining skills or stats through any of a myriad of processes while AFK. Read the official forums. Read the forums here. You'll probably need to go back to early this year and all of last, but you'll see what I mean, but the entire AFK thing has been a widespread problem from day 1, and not just an isolated issue.
Don't misunderstand me - I believe you probably recognize the issue and its scale. What you've yet to realize is how it arrived there and why. I'm trying to clarify the why for you, since by your entire response to me you simply must not, because neither of us really matter in the scope of it all. The topic is "Why does anyone care about AFK macroing?" and in spite of its facetious nature, my very first reply definitely covered a few of the reasons. The rest is a much deeper subject to go into, and - as I said earlier - has been hashed out quite a few times. That's exactly why I gave links to past discussions; I don't intend to beat that dead horse (dead to me, anyway) any further and my experiences only become less valid with time. I do hope that clears things up for you, though.
P.S. If you the Dolphins, this post must be for you... jeez.
"Take the blinders off'?
I'm not wearing any blinders, thank you.
Perhaps you're failing to see my point:
I don't *care* what the history of the game is, why people do it, how many have done it, or how they justify the situation. They're engaging in an activity that allows them to develop their character without actually playing the game, or even being at the keyboard.
It's cheating.
Period.
That's all I "need to understand' about the situation.
Trying to "understand how it came to be the way it is" is giving merit and weight to something that deserves none.
Ultimately, people afk macro in DF, or bot in L2 and other MMOs.. or RMT in any number of MMOs for the same reason: To circumvent the gameplay and get what they're after with less effort and/or time.
Of course, they need to justify it in some way, so they conjure up some sob story about how "the game is a horrible, terrible grind and it forces you to macro becasue that's the only way you can become competitive with vets".
That's the Darkfall version.
Lineage 2 players have their own versions of the same excuse and could give some story about "why people do it" and say that "you need to understand why it is how it is". . And, in fact, I've had just such a conversation with someone I knew in L2 while I was playing it. They botted and used all the same rationalizations to make it sound like it was not cheating at all, but "a necessity if you want to fully enjoy the game". I called BS on him, too. I enjoyed my time in L2 thoroughly, and never botted, or otherwise cheated for a single moment of it.
FFXI cheaters have their versions of the same excuse and could give some story about "why people do it" and say that "you need to understand why it is how it is". I got the same stories from them "if you want to compete and be viable in end-game, you have to bot to get claim on rare mobs because you need that gear for end-game raids, otherwise it takes too long to camp them". They justified it with "If SE didn't design FFXI to be such a grind, I wouldn't be forced to bot or RMT".
WoW cheaters have their own versions of the same excuse and could give some story about "why people do it" and say that "you need to understand why it is how it is"....
...and on and on... Same crap. Different games.
At the end of the day, none of it matters. It's just hollow window-dressing giving them a convenient way to justify to themselves that "if I make myself out to be a victim of a terrible grind (in a game I don't have to play in the first place), then cheating is okay. Then I can turn around and tell others that if they're not doing what I'm doing - cheating - that they'll never be competitive or viable in end-game, thus giving validity to what I'm doing, further making it seem okay".
No.. it's not "okay", it's cheating.
And even saying that "the developers didn't really do anything about it" - because that's really irrelevant. Players don't need the developers permission to do these things. They do them anyway, often times with full awareness that they're not permitted.
SE bans accounts by the thousands every month for RMT and Botting. Players are *very well aware* that it's against the rules and what the consequences are. They do it anyway. Why? Because "the end justifies the means" to them, and... maybe they "won't get caught". I've seen forum posts by people asking for a new botting app they could use that worked better than the last one they tried, because it got them banned. They'd already gotten banned once for hacking... and they were looking to do it again. Some people are just that thick, and no amount of consequence or repercussion is going to stop them.
AV could threaten with a ban-hammer, it won't matter - in fact, as I recall... they have. Those who are determined to bot or macro are going to do so regardless.
There's nothing more to "understand" other than that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
Who said anyone cares?
Few really care and are used to it since you find it in most skill based games due to the very nature by which stuff increases.
Some would love it to not exist or for skills & stats to rise faster by playing normally so one wouldn't feel compelled to macro. That is a legit desire and one I share but the reality of the situation is not a big deal; only used by those that don't like the game for one reason or another as a point to complain over.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Well akf swimming will get you like 1.30 quickness and like0.50 vitality in 7 hours. This is really the goal of afking non magic, base stats.
It will allow you to purchase racial skills and basic utility skills that may increase stamina regen or max health. These skills level slowly doing various activites that are unkown to me right now. So its best to get those early.
Overall base stats dont help all that much, other the having the ability to get general skills. In pvp your stats get debuffed away, vitality usually being the first thing to go.
So its not a huge advantage, but it does speed thing up nicely.
I think people care more about buying 100k worth of reagents then afk buffing yourself or friends for days untill the underlying school of magic is 100.
Because it reward those who don't actively play the game. There are 2 components of skill required for Darkfall one coming from personal twitch skill and the other is the so called "paper"-skill. The second one is crucial to MMO-genre. You get this from playing the game. AFK-macroing can't be seen at as "playing the game" but you gain paper skill while doing it which is against the spirit of the idea of "playiing the game" and get experience resulting to more "skill".
Second is it favorizes those who have the oppurtunity to let there pc running 24 / 7 vs those who can't which is not fair.
I understand you worrying about people having probably vilolated Aventurine's no macro policy made even clear very early already. On 03.03.2009 (which btw debunks the myth AV wasn't from first day strict aginst macroers and hackers) and just few days into launch AV made clear that macroing was not desired. But this beeing their first launched game and prob not having trained every GM properlyx and that early stage afk macroing has beeen occured. On the other hand many measures have been taken against this since being it through change of mechanics or through making the skill progress more accesible and easy and because macror got bored and left that i don't see it as big problem as many make it to be.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
People mention it favours players who can be logged in 24/7, but then doesn't every progressive leveling system favour players who are always online?
Personally I couldn't give a crap.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
This is only true when youa re low level. At level 80ish I gain about .15 for swimming all day. I get more by harvesting afk than swimming.
Why do people care about macroing? A very good reason.......
In the beginning AFK macroing was frowned upon this was only enforsed in NPC cities (the occasional GM would come by and log you out in player cities). When macroing and bloodwalls were rampant at early launch everyone stayed in thier cities afk mcoring and there was very little world PvP. Since most did not PvE they did not get the gold, reagents, items they needed to progress in the game.
Summary
Allowing AFK macoring allowed peope to screw themselves. The adverse impact of little world PvP, and the general ability for people to screw themselves developmentally (afk macoring is slow and expensive) lead to much whinign and complaining about the "grind" you see today.
I don't know if I'd call it "unfair" since, theoretically, anyone could do it.
I personally think any kind of afk activity, be it botting, macroing - or anything intended to allow your character to advance without actually *playing* the game to be pretty lame.
I'm not at all "impressed" when someone brags about how skilled their character is, and then mentions that they afk macro'd to get it there.... as though it's some kind of accomplishment to cheat.
The most ridiculous example of this is when people actually pay a company to power-level their character for them.
It reminds me of when my brother and his girlfriend decided they wanted to play The Longest Journey. They were trying their damndest to play it, but the puzzles were giving them trouble. A couple days later, they tell me "We finished The Longest Journey. It wasn't that hard. We beat it in 2 days". Then they asked how long it took me to finish it. I said "about a week overall." They said "really? We didn't think it was that difficult".
Couple days later, I was at their apartment and happened to go into their computer room where I see, of all things, a complete printed-out walk-through guide for - you guessed it - The Longest Journey.. Ear-marked, and obviously very much used.
I said "so this is how you "beat the game" in 2 days huh?" They said "Yeah, but so what. We still beat it. That's what those guides exist for and some of the puzzles were too confusing to figure out on our own. They made the game too hard, so we had to use one". I said, "yet you told me "it wasn't that hard. Well of course it's not hard when you're using a walkthrough guide. I finished the game in about a week, entirely on my own, figuring everything out myself." They said, "Oh we weren't going to do that. It would have taken too long, we just wanted to get to the end".
...
So, they'd used a walkthrough for the entire game, bragged about how it only took them 2 days to finish, and then admitted that all they were interested in was getting to the end... so "the end justified the means" to them.
Sounds an awful lot like the mindset demonstrated by a lot of players who macro/bot their way through MMOs. Not just Darkfall, but any MMO... skill-based or otherwise. And, like my bro and his gf, such players always make it sound like "the game forced them to do it".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I personally think any kind of afk activity, be it botting, macroing - or anything intended to allow your character to advance without actually *playing* the game to be pretty lame.
I'm not at all "impressed" when someone brags about how skilled their character is, and then mentions that they afk macro'd to get it there.... as though it's some kind of accomplishment to cheat.
The most ridiculous example of this is when people actually pay a company to power-level their character for them.
It reminds me of when my brother and his girlfriend decided they wanted to play The Longest Journey. They were trying their damndest to play it, but the puzzles were giving them trouble. A couple days later, they tell me "We finished The Longest Journey. It wasn't that hard. We beat it in 2 days". Then they asked how long it took me to finish it. I said "about a week overall." They said "really? We didn't think it was that difficult".
Couple days later, I was at their apartment and happened to go into their computer room where I see, of all things, a complete printed-out walk-through guide for - you guessed it - The Longest Journey.. Ear-marked, and obviously very much used.
I said "so this is how you "beat the game" in 2 days huh?" They said "Yeah, but so what. We still beat it. That's what those guides exist for and some of the puzzles were too confusing to figure out on our own. They made the game too hard, so we had to use one". I said, "yet you told me "it wasn't that hard. Well of course it's not hard when you're using a walkthrough guide. I finished the game in about a week, entirely on my own, figuring everything out myself." They said, "Oh we weren't going to do that. It would have taken too long, we just wanted to get to the end".
...
So, they'd used a walkthrough for the entire game, bragged about how it only took them 2 days to finish, and then admitted that all they were interested in was getting to the end... so "the end justified the means" to them.
Sounds an awful lot like the mindset demonstrated by a lot of players who macro/bot their way through MMOs. Not just Darkfall, but any MMO... skill-based or otherwise. And, like my bro and his gf, such players always make it sound like "the game forced them to do it".
Applause this thread..
Unfortunatly, most people that has this mindset are often unaware that there is something wrong..If you tell them that they are cheating they will tell you all sorts of things as explanation for their behavior part from admitting that they are wrong.
TIME can or could be a valid excuse but why are you playing then..The grass isnt greener at the other side.
The moment you start to cheat that is also the moment you should ask yourself ..Why am I playing this game..?
On the other hand, we are all human individuals and if one person likes to cheat(for whatever reason) ..as long as it doesnt effect me..(most of the time in MMO's it does)then sure ..Go ahead.aslong as you are having fun..
cheating is like fastforwarding a movie or read the last page in a book.
/junker
Nailed it perfectly in the blue bit. I wonder that all the time, myself.
People complain and complain about how they have to "suffer" through a game because of how awful the grind is and how they hate it... and I can't help but wonder "why the hell are you still playing something you're obviously not enjoying?"
The moment a game gives me the impression that "I have to suffer through a lot of miserable crap in hopes of getting to better stuff later"... I'm done. I log out, uninstall, cancel and that's that. If I'm not enjoying the game "right now", with whatever I'm doing... I'm done.
But then don't people do the same with forum posts?
How many times do you see people go into a thread and post something like,
"I am sick of having to waste my time reading posts like this..."
... then why the hell are they reading it... nevermind *responding* to it?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I can't really blame people for AFK macro grinding in Darkfall. Obtaining those skills through normal gameplay simply isn't all that fun for most people.
The problem is the fact that both the community and the game developers themselves have put so much of an emphasis on the end game that the leveling up process has become meaningless. In a game like World of Warcraft or EQ, there was always so much memorable content throughout the journey to the level cap.
What are you supposed to do in Darkfall? Solo grind?
If you have a few friends, I guess you can group together and mindlessly swing your sword at goblins for hours on end.
Best points in the thread above...
That said; folks are thinking about this too hard.
Vets don't want AFK macroing so that they can stay ahead.
Noobs aren't yet ready to tip over into the world of "cheating" (which it is).
Devs don't want it and claim they haven't from day 1. However, while they've taken steps to prevent and enforce it, it still slips by.
And my favorite? I don't want to leave my f**king computer running Darkfall 23/7, essentially making it a space heater in whichever room it sits (namely my bedroom), sucking up power while slowly eating away at my GPU's lifespan (let alone the rest of my components) just so I can keep up or catch up. Screw that.
The whole macro + life-devouring style of grind is why I cancelled and have yet to go back. I'm still tempted to go back and try it out with some of the latest updates, and especially with DF2010. Of course, I'd be back in a blink if they'd start a fresh server and kill the possibility of AFK swimming and macroing along with reduce the necessity of doing such things (ie. reduce the damned grind). $.02
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
See, I guess I just approach the game (or any MMO really) from a completely different mindset.
I mean I can *see* where it might feel like a grind to some people, and become obnoxious... I just don't experience it that way due to the way I play...I guess. Not saying it's "better" or "worse"... just maybe a "cause and effect" scenario.
I log in and decide what I feel like doing at that moment. Checking out my character's stats, or perhaps sorting through my bank to see what I have on hand, I find I have a surplus of materials I gathered on a previous session. Perfect.. I'll start off by training up my crafting skills... earn some skill-ups, get rid of the surplus materials and have some gear to either hold on to, sell off or give to newer players who perhaps don't have anything decent yet.
That's done... okay what next... Well, I'd like to work on my dagger skills some more. Okay, so I gear up, get the daggers out and head out to hunt some mobs, picking up some loot along the way to sell or store when I get back.. I do that as long as it remains entertaining/enjoyable to me. When it starts feeling boring (aka "like a grind") about an hour or so later, maybe more, maybe less - depending on my mood - I stop and head back to town. Now what to do... Well, since I crafted up all my supplies, I suppose I could do well to replace what I've used.. So, I get myself ready head out and start harvesting... I do that 'til I'm full or bored of that (I never afk harvest; always watching my back, etc)... Done with that.. I go back to town, bank my yield and decide what I feel like doing next... and so on. At some point during all this, I may find myself in a PvP encounter, so I'm always wary for any potential attackers.
The whole time I'm doing this, I'm following regional chat, talking with a couple people I know in /tell, etc.. This also helps the time go by and what I'm doing becomes more of a "background activity" I'm doing while having converations with others...
By the time I'm through several activitiess, several hours has gone by and I'm probably thinking "good time for a break to do something else for a bit". I get myself back in town and log out.. having played several hours, there's not a period of time where I wasn't doing something that wasn't exactly what I felt like doing at that moment.
In a nutshell: I don't grind in MMOs. I play MMOs.
I also don't perceive DF as "A FFA PvP MMO" and that's it". I see it as a "Sandbox-like MMORPG with FFA PvP". There are a number of things to do in the game, PvP being among them.
Is it going to take me longer to become "competitive with vets"? Probably. Do I care? No. Because end-game PvP is only *part* of the game to me.. not the entirety of it. If it takes me several months to get there, then fine. As long as I'm enjoying myself along the way, I have no problem with that.
Now, there are some in these forums who may say "you're playing the game wrong. You're supposed to be grinding up your skills so you can PvP, because that's what the game is all about. The optimum way to do that is afk macro". I know this because it's already been said to me before. I disagree. A MMORPG is "all about" anything and everything it offers. DF offers PvE content, it offers PvP content. It's "all about" whatever the individual wishes to get out of it.
There is no one "Right Way" to play a MMORPG - though I know that's a popular mentality in all MMOs. I was told all the time in FFXI how I was "supposed to be playing"; what jobs I was "supposed to be leveling", what gear I was "supposed to be farming for", etc. etc. Screw that. The only thing I'm "supposed to be doing" is whatever I find enjoyable for my time and my money.
And for those who insist that DF is "all about PvP and that's it" in order to support their notion that I'm "playing the game wrong"... Do some research on the game. Aventurine disagrees with you and has since before the game launched. PvE is very much an important part of the game to them, and always has been. Just look at some of what they've added.. new mobs (PvE), lowbie dungeons (PvE), they're adding more lore and quests to the game (PvE).. There's crafting (PvE), harvesting (PvE)... raid bosses (PvE)... and on and on. Anytime you're in the game, you're surrounded by PvE content. I honestly don't know how anyone could honestly say "it's all about PvP" in light of that.
I also find it rather funny that some people will argue "DF is all about PvP! None of that carebear PvE crap!"... and then you'll see a group of the same people talking about how they went out and fought the Kraken, or one of the dragons. Last I checked, raid bosses, which I take those two mobs to be, was very much PvE activity... Just sayin'.
The game may be all about PvP to you ("you" in general), but it's certainly not so to its developers, nor has it ever been. There's ample indication of that fact both in-game and on the website. On that note, though I can understand why it's frustrating to not be able to compete with vets quickly, when that's all you're interested in doing. Unfortunately for some, DF doesn't cater exclusively to that playstyle... and so, some PvE and some grinding (if that's how you choose to play it) will be necessary.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think most people really don't care. The problem isn't with the AFK macro'ers, the problem is with a system that forces so many people to AFK macro. Last night I spent half an hour manually practicing Spell Chanting. Zzzzzzzz. I don't AFK macro - yet - but now I understand why it's done.
No one is ever "forced" to afk macro. Ever.
They're not even "forced" to continue playing the game if they find it to be that boring.
Like was said by someone else, if you're finding a game to be so unenjoyable that cheating (afk macroing) seems like a viable option, perhaps you should ask yourself why you're still playing at all.
People choose to macro because they feel they're not able to progress as quickly as they'd like by actually playing. And, of course, because people these days seldom ever accept accountability for what they do, they instead look for something else to blame it on.
Hence.. "I choose to AFK macro... because the game forces me to" is the common argument.
Frankly, I couldn't care less if people choose to cheat by making the game play itself while they're not there. But at least be honest and acknowledge it for what it is.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No one is ever "forced" to afk macro. Ever.
People choose to macro because they feel they're not able to progress as quickly as they'd like by actually playing. And, of course, because people these days seldom ever accept accountability for what they do, they instead look for something else to blame it on.
Progression is so slow that without AFK macro'ing a new player will never be competitive.
Nonsense.
This has been debated and debunked many times before, going back months now.
Players with far less played-time in-game have already shared stories of how they contributed to a siege, how they PvP'd and won against more "advanced" players, etc...
In my own 2 week trial before I decided to sub... I ran into *multiple* instances of PvP. Right outside a starting city, a dwarf attacked me... I attacked back... we fought... It was PvP. I was on my way to a hunting spot... someone saw me and attacked... I fought back.. it was PvP... I was on my way to my clan's city, someone attacked me along the way... I fought back, they won.. it was PvP... I was hunting for a quest one day, someone kept trying to snipe my mobs as I was about to kill them... I ran up and attacked them and chased them off. It was PvP... and on and on... You do not need to "afk macro" in order to be viable in PvP in DF.
Of course, I can see perfectly well what the real problem is...
People want to start today and be "competitive against vets who have played far longer" within a month. They can't, so they claim "the grind is too much and so the game forces me to afk macro".
All I'll say is, in my opinion, if all someone can get out of DF is afk macroing to get to "high level PvP" to find enjoyment... they have a very limited imagination.
And, no, I'm not a veteran player who's only against it because "I don't want more competition". I'm a new player who abhores cheating on principle alone, and don't buy into any of the crap cheaters conjure up trying to defend or spin it as something it isn't.
I also don't buy into the mentality that "not liking something" is a valid reason to bypass it by cheating.
The game doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. You choose to buy the game. You choose to pay a sub. You choose to log in. You choose to play. You choose to cheat. Period.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
False.
I rerolled a new character recently, I'll post my one month stats and skills at the end of Oct, I don't afk macro (never have and never will) and I focus on specific areas of training.
You'll be quite surprised, I guarantee it.
I'm not here to say the game is "all about PVP, all the time!". In fact, far from it. Some of my best times in Darkfall included some of my time in the NEW clan when a contributor to that group would come to town, announce in alliance chat that he was there, and hand out "ready bags" containing armor and reagents then tell everyone to suit up and follow him. We'd then proceed to mount up in a massive group and head to the ocean where he'd spawn his massive ship (the largest of which I saw was a Ship-of-the-line) and we'd head out to hunt a Kraken. Getting the chance to steer a ship around while 20-30 guys arch and fire cannons on a Kraken was quite the experience. Still, it'd have been all the more thrilling had we been able to encounter some enemy ships in some highly-contested waters where a massive ship vs. ship (or even ship v ship v ship) battle had ensued. Regardless, the PVE in the game has some fun times to be sure. The danger aspect of it, however, is what many love/loved Darkfall for. That danger disappears as the population dwindles and a PVE focus becomes the norm and the challenge of PVE eventually fades as well.
I really agree with most of what you have to say, Mike. I always enjoy your posts and your views, whether or not I agree with them. However, in this case I believe that you're speaking from a lack of experience. Certainly no one is "forced" to do anything, especially cheat, and that's exactly what AFK skillups and macroing are in Darkfall. Still, when the overwhelming majority of the players are of a mindset that's been passed down to them by the game's oldest players that such things are the accepted norm, it's a line that's very easily crossed in this game. It's even worse when, at the beginning of the game, the devs themselves openly allowed such things and took no steps against them initially. That, of course, lead to the mentality that still exists today - that it's "just part of the game".
It's definitely easy to ignore others' views on the subject from the outside looking in and call it what it is, but without understanding where that view comes from, you should hold your judgement. Frankly, I'd love to see where you stand in a month's time after getting further into the game and learning more about it (especially after joining several clans and meeting older players). I don't mean that in a derogatory or presumptuous nature, but more that I'd sincerely like to see where your view and how it might have changed with more experience will stand. Where you stand right now is in a place of principle, but the subject at hand is much deeper than that.
Personally, I'm still waiting to see DF2010 implemented before I give Darkfall another go, but as I stated in my original reply; I'd really love to see a fresh server with strict enforcement of the rules now in place against AFK gains and macros. Between that, and I'd assume some fixes to certain exploits that were once common, it'd be much funner game if everyone had the opportunity to start fresh and on much more equal terms, and I'd bet that many would return for such an experience.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
I care about AFK macroing for the same reasons I care about radar hacks, lag hacks, teleporting, auto looting, etc.
it. is. cheating.
try to make some huge argument to make it look right, but at the end of the day that's just the truth.
I don't cheat in MMO's. I don't care if "everyone else is doing it" i have some integrity.
And somehow I still manage to play DF, have tons of fun without ever once AFK swimming or macroing.
I guess it's something with the "leet pvper" mentality that they have to do everything to be on top.
edit: Before anyone comes in with "ha tell me how you feel in a month or two", I've been playing over a year now.
Errrm, we don`t.
Someone on forumfall had translated from greek what Tasos had said in an interview recently. Tasos said they had sold 100000 copies of Darkfall, and they had regained 50% of the cost of making this game. Now taste that number you grinder and slayer of NPCs, 100000 copys sold.
If this is true, we have lost 97000 players and are now left with 3000. Those 3% we have left are diveded 50-50 on elite pvpers and pveers.So when you claim this game is for players like you, remember you are just 1.5% of the original playerbase. High level players like myself would love to have those 97000 back. You and your 1.5 % group of NPC killers could go back to Linage2, SWG or whatever Korean grind you came from.
Imagine what those 97000 tell their friends about Darkfall, and you got an idea why we failed. Some of us high level players still hang around with a hope that AV will reduce the grind and make DF the great PVP mmo it is. We know DF is a great game if the players have competitive chars, because we have seen it the first months of the game.
Ohh and yes, I have killed 25000 NPCs, and I wouldn`t let any of my friends go through that torture. So I tell them to stay away from this game.....for now.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's less a case of "peer pressure" or "doing it because everyone else does it", but more a case of "this is the way the game is played by the majority, so clearly the players and the devs allow it to exist and therefore it's not really perceived as cheating, so don't let that stop you from taking part as well!"
As I stated in the full text of my reply; I quit when I realized where I'd gotten during my time playing. Understand, I don't cheat in games - single-player or otherwise - and have always taken a very strong stance against it. The point at which I decided to join the bloodwallers and AFK macroers was during the very last week (maybe week and a half) of my time in the game, at which point I'd already decided I no longer cared about playing. I merely decided "screw it; I'm going to quit either way, but let me see how this works". That doesn't excuse its peccability at all, but hopefully clarifies why I ended up at that point.
Like I stated earlier, I really do agree with you on the entire sentiment of "just playing". Darkfall became unenjoyable for me, and in a final attempt to both understand and see first-hand why people were doing the AFK grind, I joined in. For that very reason, I quit the game.
Frankly, I couldn't agree more with the "I don't grind in a MMO, I play them" statement. I've always been the same way, namely in FFXI and RF Online I can absolutely relate. In FFXI, most people called grouping up and camping for exp a grind. I loved it, and almost always had a great time with it. The few times I didn't, I logged out. In RFO I put in some pretty extreme work on my PTs (back at the original CM release; before cash shop) which many, many called a grind. Personally, I loved grabbing a cup of hot coffee and settling in with some music and playing whack-a-mole for hours. Seriously. I was one of a very few who did so, though. The point is, I've never felt compelled to cheat or manipulate a system in any way to get ahead. I've always played my characters legitimately to accomplish what I have through my years of gaming. Darkfall is literally the only exception to this.
Of course, all of the above is largely irrelevant because it merely pertains to you, me, and my attempt to clarify a misunderstood position. A much better way to put it would be:
The fact is, it doesn't matter what my experience with the game was like. It doesn't matter what yours will be. What matters is what the vast majority of players have experienced and what they will that's at the heart of this thread. Very clearly, as illustrated above, a measly "3%" is all that remains of 100,000 copies sold worldwide. That means that 97% of folks decided that the grind was too much, they were turned off by the blatant and rampant cheating, they couldn't handle the FFA PVP nature of the game, or any other of a plethora of reasons to ditch the game. Ignore my epxerience entirely, I don't care. Take the blinders off, though, and look at the history of this game and you'll realize that the vast majority of people who stuck with it for any significant time ended up gaining skills or stats through any of a myriad of processes while AFK. Read the official forums. Read the forums here. You'll probably need to go back to early this year and all of last, but you'll see what I mean, but the entire AFK thing has been a widespread problem from day 1, and not just an isolated issue.
Don't misunderstand me - I believe you probably recognize the issue and its scale. What you've yet to realize is how it arrived there and why. I'm trying to clarify the why for you, since by your entire response to me you simply must not, because neither of us really matter in the scope of it all. The topic is "Why does anyone care about AFK macroing?" and in spite of its facetious nature, my very first reply definitely covered a few of the reasons. The rest is a much deeper subject to go into, and - as I said earlier - has been hashed out quite a few times. That's exactly why I gave links to past discussions; I don't intend to beat that dead horse (dead to me, anyway) any further and my experiences only become less valid with time. I do hope that clears things up for you, though.
P.S. If you
the Dolphins, this post must be for you... jeez.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
"Take the blinders off'?
I'm not wearing any blinders, thank you.
Perhaps you're failing to see my point:
I don't *care* what the history of the game is, why people do it, how many have done it, or how they justify the situation. They're engaging in an activity that allows them to develop their character without actually playing the game, or even being at the keyboard.
It's cheating.
Period.
That's all I "need to understand' about the situation.
Trying to "understand how it came to be the way it is" is giving merit and weight to something that deserves none.
Ultimately, people afk macro in DF, or bot in L2 and other MMOs.. or RMT in any number of MMOs for the same reason: To circumvent the gameplay and get what they're after with less effort and/or time.
Of course, they need to justify it in some way, so they conjure up some sob story about how "the game is a horrible, terrible grind and it forces you to macro becasue that's the only way you can become competitive with vets".
That's the Darkfall version.
Lineage 2 players have their own versions of the same excuse and could give some story about "why people do it" and say that "you need to understand why it is how it is". . And, in fact, I've had just such a conversation with someone I knew in L2 while I was playing it. They botted and used all the same rationalizations to make it sound like it was not cheating at all, but "a necessity if you want to fully enjoy the game". I called BS on him, too. I enjoyed my time in L2 thoroughly, and never botted, or otherwise cheated for a single moment of it.
FFXI cheaters have their versions of the same excuse and could give some story about "why people do it" and say that "you need to understand why it is how it is". I got the same stories from them "if you want to compete and be viable in end-game, you have to bot to get claim on rare mobs because you need that gear for end-game raids, otherwise it takes too long to camp them". They justified it with "If SE didn't design FFXI to be such a grind, I wouldn't be forced to bot or RMT".
WoW cheaters have their own versions of the same excuse and could give some story about "why people do it" and say that "you need to understand why it is how it is"....
...and on and on... Same crap. Different games.
At the end of the day, none of it matters. It's just hollow window-dressing giving them a convenient way to justify to themselves that "if I make myself out to be a victim of a terrible grind (in a game I don't have to play in the first place), then cheating is okay. Then I can turn around and tell others that if they're not doing what I'm doing - cheating - that they'll never be competitive or viable in end-game, thus giving validity to what I'm doing, further making it seem okay".
No.. it's not "okay", it's cheating.
And even saying that "the developers didn't really do anything about it" - because that's really irrelevant. Players don't need the developers permission to do these things. They do them anyway, often times with full awareness that they're not permitted.
SE bans accounts by the thousands every month for RMT and Botting. Players are *very well aware* that it's against the rules and what the consequences are. They do it anyway. Why? Because "the end justifies the means" to them, and... maybe they "won't get caught". I've seen forum posts by people asking for a new botting app they could use that worked better than the last one they tried, because it got them banned. They'd already gotten banned once for hacking... and they were looking to do it again. Some people are just that thick, and no amount of consequence or repercussion is going to stop them.
AV could threaten with a ban-hammer, it won't matter - in fact, as I recall... they have. Those who are determined to bot or macro are going to do so regardless.
There's nothing more to "understand" other than that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops